Is each side properly balanced?

[Barney]

I might have missed a topic covering this but I did have a good look around. I'm new to Tremulous so I suppose I really shouldn't posting and I'm sure someone is going to point this fact out to me so if I'm wrong in something I say please say why as well.

I think the aliens side is too strong.

In every game where the teams have been balanced, skillwise and number of player wise, aliens have always won. The only times I've seen the humans win is when the teams are unbalanced with experienced players on the human side and fairly new players on the aliens side, where the humans advance quickly and destroy the eggs. It seems to me as soon as the alien side gets dragoons the human side has already lost, they just don't know it yet.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the main tactic of the aliens side is to hit and run? As in, mainly with dragoon or tyrant, run in destroy a turret or two and leave, regenerate health, then repeat till the humans base is destroyed. Or if the game lasts an extended period of time, to stage 3 or sudden death, even if the humans have the max turrets, tesla or otherwise, it only takes an advanced dragoon to spit... twice I think it is?... and they're destroyed.

What am I missing? Why do the humans lose all the time? I'm sure someones going to say, "Because they suck" or "j00 n00bs" so I suggest to them to play human all the time and see how they like facing a swarm of tyrants and advanced dragoons.

In my opinion, the advanced dragoons ranged shot is far too powerful. Especially against structures like the turrets. Also, I don't know whether it is just me, but apart from the lasgun all the energy projectiles seem really slow? Is it supposed to be like that or is something wrong on my end? Or is the projectile animation just slow? I'm finding I have to aim a fair distance ahead of a target for the projectile to hit which is even more difficult because of the aliens speed. The most annoying thing I'm finding so far is that the high end human weapons are poor over distance. So the following happens. Dragoon or Tyrant charges into human base, you engage it, it destroys a turret and tries to kill you. You fight back, they can't kill you, you're winning, and the thing just runs off. You certainly can't catch it and even though while its running off and you're chasing it you can keep it in sight for a while the weapon you're using can't hit it. The chainguns spread means so few bullets will hit thats its pointless to keep shooting, and the plasma rifle and lucifer projectiles can't even catch them (given the lucifer is really strong so I can accept the speed of its projectile just pointing out all the energy weapons have slow projectiles except for lasgun).

Let's compare each weapon in its effectiveness at killing/attacking a retreating alien, specifically dragoon, advanced dragoon and tyrant.
Machinegun - If you can force a dragoon, adv dragoon or a tyrant to retreat on this then props to ya but I doubt you're gonna finish it off as it retreats with this.
PlasmaChainsaw thingie (I haven't used it so I don't know its name) - Well... Unless you sorta... Throw it...
Shotgun - The spread stuffs it up over distance but then a shotgun wouldn't be a shotgun if you could use it to snipe an opponent down the hallway.
Lasgun - You're still probably not going to be dealing enough damage to take em out.
Plasma Rifle - As I said before, I don't know whether it's just me or if it's supposed to be like this, but the projectiles are really slow.
Chaingun - Great a point blank but I've chased a retreating alien down a corridor and I've seen a large amount of bullets holes everywhere but straight ahead.
Flamer - I admit I can't use a flamer very well... I'm sure I'm torching myself more then I am aliens but then I am comparing the weapons as to effectiveness over a shortish distance while chasing an alien down a corridor and a flamer certainly won't kill it. More like fry yourself.
Lucifer cannon - This seems to me like it's an energy based version of a rocket launcher. Blast radius good for taking out dretches.

Now I'm sure I've missed one or two human weapons but still... It seems to me like any weapon capable of being accurate over a distance is not strong enough to take on a dragoon, advanced dragoon or tyrant at close range... Which is where you're going to find them because of their stampede and pounce abilities.

The best way I can see to fix this is to either increase energy projectile speed (especially of the handgun there's no point using it when you're using a construction kit) or jam a cool down on the dragoon and tyrants stampede and pounce. Wihch there should be anyway... You try sprinting, then sprinting, then sprinting again, then sprinting again... and again... and again... Or preparing to for a second jump while you're doing the first jump. I mean that's how you use a dragoon, advanced dragoon and tyrant right? You use stampede/pounce and while in mid-stampede/pounce you're charging up for your next stampede/pounce.

So. As I said before, I'm new. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong and tell me WHY i'm wrong. I don't care if you tell me my solutions are wrong but if you tell me each side is fair I'm gonna tell you you're an idiot.

[tomek-k]

I also think that aliens are overpowered;P

[Undeference]

I agree. But I also think humans are over powered... so it works out.

[Barney]

I agree. But I also think humans are over powered... so it works out.

If you read my post fully I asked for any people with difference of opinion to state why... So could you please elaborate on your reasoning as to how they are both over powered so it all works out in the end?

[Basilisco]

The dang spectators are overpowered, i mean geez, have you tried to kill one?? you can't!!!!

[Barney]

The dang spectators are overpowered, i mean geez, have you tried to kill one?? you can't!!!!

I know what you mean. They're exploiting some kind of bug so they can't be seen or hurt and jeez... It's really disconcerting having one riding round inside your head.

[Bajsefar]

See now, i play a lot as both humans and aliens, and i must say the winning chances are mostly equal. The chaingun is GREAT for taking down retreating tyrants and goons, even if it spreads a wee bit too much, you can press the 'x' button to sprint, and run ALMOST as fast as a dretch, which is to say that you have a fair chance of hanging on an aliens back till it is dead.

now, the pulse rifle does an incredible amount of damage, if you know how to use it. Refrain from using the pulse rifle in huge open spaces where the aliens have a lot of room for moving, rather spam it in the hallways as the tyrant ot goon charges you, and they will be dead in no time.

and always when fighting aliens, remember t o dodge, not only retreat, this makes a pain in the ass to the alien, since it will take heavy damage while not being able to hit you, dodging is best done by circling an alien , and moving a wee bit back or forth after the aliens movement.

this is useful with the painsaw, as you can get at point blank range, and saw those tyrants and goons to death. (you'd be suprised at how much damage it deals, especially since it has unlimited ammo.)

also, a full charged luci shot insta-kills and adv goon, and forces any tyrants without a deathwish to retreat.

and really, the rifle is a fair weapon, you can help a great deal at cutting down the aliens' hp with this one, not to mention it is hitscan.

all close range weapons can be used effectively while dodging, and i would say that the only thing a bit unbalanced in trem, is the stages, which dosnt really matter since the overall balance is good.

Edit: typos.

[Stof]

If there are 2 things two improve in trem I would do :
- human stage 1 is underpowered. Leads to boring games if aliens get an early goon in the hands of a good player. Well, not really underpowered as it is, more of the lines of "boring". I wouldn't mind if both teams started at stage 2
- humans are overpowered in the hands of a good team

[Seffylight]

In the hands of a Newbie:

*Humans: Lethal against almost all newbie aliens, will get chomped most of the time by a moderate alien player, all the time by a good/expert alien player.
*Aliens: Pretty screwed, for the most part.

In the hands of a Moderate Player:
*Humans: Take out any newbie alien, stand about a half and half chance against moderate aliens, will get chomped most of the time by a good/expert alien, though.
*Aliens: Newbie players -- save for divine intervention -- will be yours. Stay away from a human that knows what he's doine with a chaingun, painsaw, luci, or a pulse rifle.

In the hands of a Good Player:
*Humans: Take out almost any alien save for those that are really, really good at it.
*Aliens: Beware the chaingun and painsaw, but you should be able to take down a pulser or luci most of the time.

In the hands of an Expert:
*Humans/Aliens: It's all equal here. You'll take out anyone in the lower tiers almost 100% of the time 1 on 1, and will likely be able to take out small groups too. Against another expert player, though.. Well, that's the game balance that we're talking about.


As you can see, game balance is directly related to player skill. Most new players flock to human, because it's familiar. However, the moderate and good players will likely want to go alien, and the expert players are probably going to do whatever they can to level the playing field for everyone.

[Barney]

I agree with you Stof. I have been told by a few players the best strategy for being an alien is to be a dretch until you can be a dragoon. In the case of good players all it takes is some humans to make a few mistakes and become fodder or some  fancy runs into the human base and they have a dragoon after a few minutes. Which they can then use to start taking down the human base's turret making the base more open for other aliens to get enough kills to evolve into a dragoon. In fact I think the only time I've seen an alien be anything other then dretch, dragoon, advanced dragoon or tyrant is in the latter part of the game as an advanced marauder (the lightning thing?)

Perhaps a way to resolve this is to make the dragoon an s2 evolution...? Although that would make taking down the humans defenses alot harder.

Bajesfar - It's not that I have trouble dodging aliens... I suppose... Maybe my problems with the humans guns might just be that I get annoyed that my kills run off all the time... Such as, in a previous game, I forget the map it was an arena like map, I was defending the side passage pretty much on my own in a battlesuit and chaingun. I had two tyrants and an advanced dragoon constantly retreating. Killing one of them only if when it was about to retreat making it get stuck on me stopping it from being able to run off so I could get in more hits, also dying a few times myself when I overextended myself down the passageway in my pursuit.

Since I posted the first post I have also read a few other posts which talk about the damage of the plasma rifle and lucifer cannon and admit that from their discussions I must be using the weapons wrong because it was never like that for me.

Still, I stick to my opinion that the advanced dragoon's ranged attack is far too powerful and take up Stof's call that if a dragoon gets up and going at the start that the humans have little chance of taking it out. Although I suppose that situation only becomes more and more apparent the fewer the players. I would like to see the basilisk and marauder having to be used more often at the start.

Edit - Just saw your post Seffylight and... well... maybe you're right but I'm talking common gameplay not say, clan vs clan which I haven't had the pleasure of watching in which perhaps the humans are so good that its alot harder for the aliens to get kills. In a public game, what happens is a few good players on the aliens team manage to kill the more novice players on the humans team and then evolving into a dragoon. Once that happens the humans are screwed because as soon as it hits stage 3 those dragoons are now advanced dragoons and tyrants. Which means the eventual downfall of the humans. Especially at Sudden Death when the humans can't rebuild the base defenses.

[Juno]

goons at s2? hmmmmm no thanks



as for aliens always winning, thats because the team are NOT balanced to begin with


a decent team doesnt just consist of shooting /attacking players, you need a good builder/repairer aswell


if our base is under seige , im not that good at taking on tyrants so i whack out the conkit and ask someone to help

when i see a turret with no power about to blow, i decon it rather than let it explode and damage the rest of the base . i also ask any other players to try and help out with the building, as you need atleast 2 imo


also, humans can defend well against tyrants if they work together and chase down the retreating aliens, and dont feed, they will wear down thier evos until they are just dretches or goons

but admitidly, thier are times when you just get pwned

alot of people will say this but just play/spec on decent servers and you will see humans do not always lose



also

painSAW  will take down a tyrant in 2 seconds and a goon in 1, adv goon 1.5 i am  lead to belive. skill is required

las gun does 9 damage a shot as does the PULSE rifle, but the strength in the pulse rifle is at close range due to its rapid fire, you can get a goon down to below 100hp/ kill it within seconds if all shots hit


you need to be close with the chaingun as it has a large spread, but its very good for chasing tyrants if you can dodge and if you can be sure not to run into many others



flamer for tyrants.hmmm not so sure. maybe if you block them while they attack turrets, but you can so much more easily go around thier backs with a bsuit/psaw and trap them against the turrets


and also, the shotgun isnt supposed to be an offensize weapon ( someone else said this) las guns can take out goons at s1, you need good dancing tho.

shotguns are best to defend with/kill aleins that are attacking you



theres a few of my views anyway

[rasz_pl]

Constructive criticism:
-you are a N00B
-you play with N00B humans
-most N00Bs play only humans because they are N00Bs
-N00Bs suck even in human team

[janev]

I don't remember who said this but "we can't balance the game according to the lowest denominator"

Yes the teams are different...

The aliens with their massive close range damage and high hit points make good lone wolves and often dominate lone humans/ lesser humans( less fighting gear). In public games the excellent players tend to favour the alien side because of it's lone wolf gamestyle and because them playing humans would spoil the fun.

The humans on the other side with ranged weapons and teamwork can dominate the lonely tyrants that can't attack in groups for fear of team damage. example 5 humans fighting without being too cramped in a tunnel where only  1 tyrant fits. Beware a human team that works together.

It is all about playstyle

you said you wanted to reduce the adv goons effectiveness vs turrets well imho the opposite would be nice to see as when you reach stage 3 in less then 10 mins usually it is often very frustrating for an alien player to have to wait outside a well guarded human base( in which the humans sit on turrets and spam unlimited amounts of ammo out) for 40 minutes longer for sudden death to start.


goon at stage 2 would very much kill the game balance as any alien team(against skilled humans) hoping to last until s3 will need to gather as many frags towards s3 as possible before humans hit s2. Grouped stage 2 humans are nigh impossible to kill with s1 or s2 aliens and even s3 aliens can have difficulties.

Machinegun - If you can force a dragoon, adv dragoon or a tyrant to retreat on this then props to ya but I doubt you're gonna finish it off as it retreats with this.
PlasmaChainsaw thingie (I haven't used it so I don't know its name) - Well... Unless you sorta... Throw it...
Shotgun - The spread stuffs it up over distance but then a shotgun wouldn't be a shotgun if you could use it to snipe an opponent down the hallway.
Lasgun - You're still probably not going to be dealing enough damage to take em out.
Plasma Rifle - As I said before, I don't know whether it's just me or if it's supposed to be like this, but the projectiles are really slow.
Chaingun - Great a point blank but I've chased a retreating alien down a corridor and I've seen a large amount of bullets holes everywhere but straight ahead.
Flamer - I admit I can't use a flamer very well... I'm sure I'm torching myself more then I am aliens but then I am comparing the weapons as to effectiveness over a shortish distance while chasing an alien down a corridor and a flamer certainly won't kill it. More like fry yourself.
Lucifer cannon - This seems to me like it's an energy based version of a rocket launcher. Blast radius good for taking out dretches.

1 rifle is meant for the little bugs dretches, basilisk, at a push marauders and for getting money for better weapons/ armour
2 painsaw(or PlasmaChainsaw as you called it) is a melee weapon that does insane damage at short range to *hint*BUILDINGS and bugs
3 shotgun does very good damage at close range- watch skilled players use it
4 lasgun is an affordable base/ dretch/ builder killer for early raids and egghunts
5 pulserifle has among best damage in tremulous (lucifer, flamer and painsaw have better afaik) yes the projectiles are slow so it wouldn't dominate the aliens too badly ( it already does that).
6 chaingun goes good damage with fast moving bullets for killing fleeing bigger bug(goons for example) it is best when used with a battlesuit but watch out for the ammo
7 flamer has very high damage but should be used with restraint when new to the game, it works well when coupled with teammates
8 lucifer cannon should not be under estimated in the right hands it is the gayest most unbalanced gun in the game ( wrongly used it does suck:) )

you said sudden death isn't fair for humans... do you think a human team that is stuck in their base afraid to kill the dragoons spitting at their turrets deserves to win or draw? humans have equal chances in sd imho. a human that gets steamrolled as soon as sd starts was most likely losing to begin with.

The alien team needs to be able to flee and removing/nerfing the trample and pounce would make it impossible for aliens... also how fun would it be to play humans if you can't even get close to enemy without losing over 50% hp. TIP of the day use the sprint button.

the blaster is meant to be useless... it is a last resort weapon and not an incentive for people to rambo as builder



everything i have said here is probably in the manual if you cared to read it( i never did that is why i typed all this)

I don't care if you tell me my solutions are wrong but if you tell me each side is fair I'm gonna tell you you're an idiot.

feel free to call me an idiot :wink:

@stof making both teams start at s2 would imo make nearly 100% human wins
@seffylight you pretty much got it right
@everyone that read this far sorry for my stupidly long post, what can i say i'm infected

[Stof]

@stof making both teams start at s2 would imo make nearly 100% human wins

Maybe, but still, having aliens deadlock the game by getting goon early and still not strong enouth to kill the human base doesn't make for fun games.

[Juno]

like janev said



groups of humans with even some team work are nigh unkillable


eg flamer, psaw, pulse rifle and chaingun in one group is a walking deathtrap for  any s2 alien


but they can be picked off from behind, but even then, strength for humans lies in number

[Paradox]

The teams are balanced. Noobs go to humans, because it is easier, and it follows the traditional fps scheme. More adv players go to aliens. The humans camp till sudden death, or their s3, and the aliens mow down the stragglers. The aliens wait for sudden death, and then rush the human base, using great teamwork, like 3 tyrants tag teaming, and one goon. Since the players on aliens ususally know how to use teams well, they attack better.


One final thing to say: Before you bitch about any 'unbalance', search the forums, or even just look 2 pages back. Play the game and get GOOD before you say "Waah! I was mowed down by a tyrant 4 times in a battlesuit! Waah! I am obviously the best player ever, and thusly the aliens are too powerful because they kill me using teamwork!"

[Rippy]

I find that lots of the better players prefer the aliens. We're just cooler than those hideous humans.

But for the sake of balance, I think the default build point total should be somewhere around 120 instead of 100. 2 extra acid tubes aren't gonna stop the humans from destroying an alien base, but 2 extra turrets'll help a human base stand up just a little longer against tyrants, allowing someone to go repair the turrets more easily.

[temple]

I think humans are the overpowered ones. Humans can swap weapons and gear.  They can choose the right tool for the job.

Aliens are better at survival (and its intended).  Aliens are stuck doing whatever they are doing until they evolve or die.  I think aliens have the disadvantage by far but aliens are just finesse and skilled players can push the alien potential from survival to ruthless predator.  

If Humans are aggressive and not feeding, they will eventually break through anything aliens can throw at them.  Its just that the ruthless aliens are usually already hacking the Humans to pieces before a counter attack can be mounted.

[Paradox]

Play on servers with high bps, like SST, you will have a much more balanced game, even though its balanced in the first place.

[Barney]

Constructive criticism:
-you are a N00B
-you play with N00B humans
-most N00Bs play only humans because they are N00Bs
-N00Bs suck even in human team

Wow, that has to be the most unconsctructive post I have come across in quite a while. Nice explanation of your reasoning too. It is due to your post that I have learnt the error of my ways. Clap clap boyo.

Seriously though, thanks janev and I read and thought over your post and some of the others and have concede that I am in error. The problem I think I'm experiencing as a few people have mentioned is probably that I'm just playing on the wrong servers with players that aren't very experienced and tend to want to solo more then team. Also that I haven't used the stronger human weapons enough to get a feel for how you're supposed to use them. However due to my location in the world there are only a few servers in which I get a good enough ping to play on (three servers < 100 and two or three more between 100-200 ping) and I'm just talking from experience in playing in these servers which would only encompass a very small portion of the Tremulous population.

Contrary to what one person said, it is not that I suck using aliens. In fact I started using the aliens before humans. Which was probably why I ended posting this in the first place, because I hadn't played the human side enough. I started this thread after slogging it out for around 18 hours with the human side only winning very few times spreading myself between each side fairly evenly. Say 1 in every 25 or 30 games the humans would win.

To those of you who posted constructively I thank you and will endeaver to implement your opinions into my Tremulous gameplay.

[kozak6]

Barney, how often have you played as an alien?

The Adv Goon barb really does rip up constructions.  However, it's needed to destroy Teslas.  If there's more than one of them, you are going to have a hard time taking them out, especially while humans are shooting at you.

The pulse rifle and the lucifer projectiles are slow because they do a lot of damage.  I don't know if you have noticed, but aliens are rather limited in ranged attacks.  If they were faster, then the poor bugs wouldn't stand a chance.  It's needed for balance.

The mass driver is an instant hit energy weapon, except it has some limitations as well.

If you haven't noticed, the chaingun becomes a different weapon when the battlesuit is equipped.  It's actually not bad at all for chasing dying big bugs.

The blaster ("handgun") is supposed to be wimpy.  It's what you get for wasting all of your ammo.  Not to mention, the builder isn't really supposed to be a fighter.

Hell, the alien builders have it worse.  Plain grangers can't attack at all, and Adv. Granger spit does 4 damage.  And then, human builders can still buy bsuits and hand grenades, and swap between the ckit and a weapon as often as they please.

Barney, I think you need to play a bit more on the alien side (and Tremulous in general) before you further judge balance.

[Caveman]

Constructive criticism:
-you are a N00B
-you play with N00B humans
-most N00Bs play only humans because they are N00Bs
-N00Bs suck even in human team

Wow, that has to be the most unconsctructive post I have come across in quite a while. Nice explanation of your reasoning too. It is due to your post that I have learnt the error of my ways. Clap clap boyo.

.....

seriously, he made valid points. Granted, they require some thinking.
But it really boils down on the experience you have playing both sides.
Every team is as good as the weakest player. As Trem is not a FPS where you die w/o consequences.
Everytime you die, you help the other team.

I have seen good player get taken down because they thought they had backup but were slashed by total newb-players. Why? because the newb-players acted as a team.
A BS does not help you much if you go against few dretches that know how to play.
Likewise a Tyrant does not stand a chance if he does not know how to charge/slash. One can even be taken care of by a lowly human that knows how to dance.

So please take the advice given here. Play, play play and play, get experienced and then do you comparison again. Preferably in one of the other Threads that have the same topic .)

[TyrranzzX]

I think the aliens are overpowered in two ways.

First, the aliens can basically camp any area of the map; the humans will eventually run out of ammo and health, but the aliens ammo regens and their health does as well.  At S1, this means a massive advantage with goons in being able to camp corners, at S2, a large advantage in being able to wear down an opponent by forcing them to fire at you all over the place (even through dretches do this anyway), and at S3 with camping entrances at multiexited bases.  Because the aliens can hold territory over the map since the maps are made in a semi-liniar, often circular fashon and because it takes so much ammo to down one good alien, humans are limited in how far they can reach out because they get either bogged by a ninja dretch or outright killed by a camping goon or tyrant.  Additionally, when they do attack an alien base, it takes a lot of ammo to blow the alien structures, so that again leads to wear-down.  

What would help is the ability to buy extra ammo clips and medikits from the armory; additionally, an ammo pack for weapons that require a continuous feed of ammo such as the chaingun and flamer would also be a good idea.  The battlesuit itself should also have a very slow native regenration rate for energy weapons and a bigger ammo capacity for ammo-based weapons.  This would give the humans a stamina equivelancy to the aliens and keep combat relitivally balanced.

Secondly, aliens have a disproportionate advantage at medium player counts when working in numbers since they are, on average, more powerful one-on-one against humans.  Like in RTS games, the power of a given superunit doubles for every unit that projects it's power into a certain area.  I'v never seen a human base survive getting rushed by 3 or 4 tyrants at once, much less a combination of tyrants and sniping goons, especially when the clock hits sudden death and the humans end up trapped in their base unable to move out.  When the player count gets very high, as in 12-32 players per side, the humans gain an advantage from their ranged weapons in small corridores.  5 guys with rifles standing at the end of a corridor can do a heckuva lot of damage against rushing tyrants and if they are using lasguns, plasma rifles, or luci cannons forget it.  It's very rare to see an alien victory on the SST server, but very common to see alien victories on other servers with 6 on 6 or 7 on 7, simply because the humans can't attack or defend effectivly against those alien superunits.  In a cooridor, can 1 tyrant kill a battlesuit clad human wielding a chaingun or luci?  2 tyrants against 2 battlesuit clad humans?  3 on 3?  Ect?  At some point, the tyrants are coming in a line and you've got a wall of hurt coming at them which is a map design issue; not a balancing issue.  

What would help is obviously a stamina boost for the humans which would allow them to actually attack the alien base, forcing them to defend for once in smaller games.  More importantly, after S3 is reached, kills go towards buying BP for either team depending on the value of the kill relative to the player count.  For every 2000 creds worth of kills, or 10 frag points, a team gets 5BP.  Bigger games get more BP, and bigger kills yield more BP, and more of the map becomes entroached in territory holding buildings thus lessening the effect either side would get.  A tyrant killing lots of naked marines isn't going to yield as much frag points as those marines killing the tyrant.  At OT, BP is no longer awarded for kills and you no longer gain BP when a building is destroyed; all saved up BP is kept.  This awards the more skilled team overall.  Better map design would also be handy, with maps having playercount limits on them perhaps.

[kozak6]

Hmm.  That would buff humans an awful lot.

Really, it seems that if humans would simply work together for once, they could accomplish a hell of a lot more.  If more than one bsuit came out at once, they would do a bit better at pushing back the line.

Since experienced players often prefer bugs, they tend to work together, making them seem stronger than they would be otherwise.

Aliens also have a much harder time defending.  Their constructions are generally wimpy and less effective (and one particular construction is useless, possibly worse), and often can be destroyed by a well placed (or poorly placed) grenade.  Not to mention, they can't evolve if humans are nearby.  Oh, and the psaw.

[janev]

@TyrranzzX
now before you go yelling omg the aliens are overpowered please scroll up the page and read my 894 word post on that subject

aliens are actually a bit underpowered
try a clanmatch where humans attack in groups and don't overly feed
remember that aliens need to gather twice as many kills early in the game as humans.
If humans hit stage 2 when aliens are still s1 or s2 their teamworking rush is stupidly powerful and they can pretty much get stage 3 without anyone dying.

[temple]

I think the aliens are overpowered in two ways.

First, the aliens can basically camp any area of the map; the humans will eventually run out of ammo and health, but the aliens ammo regens and their health does as well.  At S1, this means a massive advantage with goons in being able to camp corners, at S2, a large advantage in being able to wear down an opponent by forcing them to fire at you all over the place (even through dretches do this anyway), and at S3 with camping entrances at multiexited bases.  Because the aliens can hold territory over the map since the maps are made in a semi-liniar, often circular fashon and because it takes so much ammo to down one good alien, humans are limited in how far they can reach out because they get either bogged by a ninja dretch or outright killed by a camping goon or tyrant.  Additionally, when they do attack an alien base, it takes a lot of ammo to blow the alien structures, so that again leads to wear-down.  

Aliens camp corners, Humans camp halls.  Its relative.  Rushing with numbers affect any sides ability to camp. Spin jumping, retreating, grenades, wallclimbing, pouncing, or trampling can counter corners or halls (species specific).  Humans also have good suppression weapons.  Aliens just get hitpoints.

Aliens regen slowly, Humans can use med kits to regen quickly.  Its relative. Humans may less it points and limited regen but they can jump and 'dance' to counter headshot while still striking from range.  Aliens have to attack or retreat.  Humans can attack while retreating.  

Humans are just as lethal as Aliens when they use aim and footwork.  A dancing humans can kill anything below s3 and hurt a lot at s3.  

What would help is the ability to buy extra ammo clips and medikits from the armory; additionally, an ammo pack for weapons that require a continuous feed of ammo such as the chaingun and flamer would also be a good idea.  The battlesuit itself should also have a very slow native regenration rate for energy weapons and a bigger ammo capacity for ammo-based weapons.  This would give the humans a stamina equivelancy to the aliens and keep combat relitivally balanced.

Rifles, shotguns, and chainguns are all instant shot weapons.  They are very powerful.  Extending the clip will only extend time away from a base but I doubt it will make Humans any more effective.  If you aim well (and restrain from shooting), those weapons last longer than energy weapons.

An ammo pack is also planned for later patches.

If Battlesuits regen, then they shouldn't have med kits.  But I doubt regen on Battlesuits would matter considering you have to go back to the base eventually for ammunition.  A Battlesuited Human, with your idea for regen, kills an alien but will not be able to regen before that alien respawns.  The med kit and med bay is much better.

Secondly, aliens have a disproportionate advantage at medium player counts when working in numbers since they are, on average, more powerful one-on-one against humans.  Like in RTS games, the power of a given superunit doubles for every unit that projects it's power into a certain area.  I'v never seen a human base survive getting rushed by 3 or 4 tyrants at once, much less a combination of tyrants and sniping goons, especially when the clock hits sudden death and the humans end up trapped in their base unable to move out.  When the player count gets very high, as in 12-32 players per side, the humans gain an advantage from their ranged weapons in small corridores.  5 guys with rifles standing at the end of a corridor can do a heckuva lot of damage against rushing tyrants and if they are using lasguns, plasma rifles, or luci cannons forget it.  It's very rare to see an alien victory on the SST server, but very common to see alien victories on other servers with 6 on 6 or 7 on 7, simply because the humans can't attack or defend effectivly against those alien superunits.  In a cooridor, can 1 tyrant kill a battlesuit clad human wielding a chaingun or luci?  2 tyrants against 2 battlesuit clad humans?  3 on 3?  Ect?  At some point, the tyrants are coming in a line and you've got a wall of hurt coming at them which is a map design issue; not a balancing issue.  

In regards to 20+ player servers....
Tremulous was designed with less than 20 players in mind.  Tremulous isn't a deathmatch that can be played with 2 or more.  Its a team game and there has to be a manageable team size in order for it work.  I've beaten Aliens with a 4x4 and up before.  The differnce is that Aliens can win 1vs1 easily but grouped humans can win against group aliens due to having varying weapons.  Outside of that, the more players balance each other out.  Its the increase of build points that make or break a side's ability to win.  This favors Humans due to the damage potential of its structures.  Humans can actually attack via structures with enough buldl points.  They can build forward turrets but should the turrets 'do all the work'?

The problem with Tyrants and with most Alien classes is that you have to use the points and you lose them all with death.  As a Human, you can take only what you need and no more.  You can also parley those points to switch weapons.  As an Alien, you have to kill an equal amount of Humans to your evolution cost in order to sustain fighting.  With Humans, you just reload.  Tyrants are a high cost, high risk unit.  You have to kill 5 humans just to be able to use it again if you die.  Its much easier to bankrupt Aliens if a Human team fights well.  4 Tyrants is the equalivent of 20 kills or 40 minutes of playing (and any combination of both).  

Also a Tyrant in a corridor has to kill any humans in there or they have no means of suriving.  I can't remember the map name (the one with the huge tubes and long hallways with doors) but that map is basically Tyrant suicide against aggressive humans.  

What would help is obviously a stamina boost for the humans which would allow them to actually attack the alien base, forcing them to defend for once in smaller games.  More importantly, after S3 is reached, kills go towards buying BP for either team depending on the value of the kill relative to the player count.  For every 2000 creds worth of kills, or 10 frag points, a team gets 5BP.  Bigger games get more BP, and bigger kills yield more BP, and more of the map becomes entroached in territory holding buildings thus lessening the effect either side would get.  A tyrant killing lots of naked marines isn't going to yield as much frag points as those marines killing the tyrant.  At OT, BP is no longer awarded for kills and you no longer gain BP when a building is destroyed; all saved up BP is kept.  This awards the more skilled team overall.  Better map design would also be handy, with maps having playercount limits on them perhaps.

A stamina boost for human is the med kit.  I don't know else could be holding Humans back from attacking a base other than organization (which means that each attacking Human is a stamina boost of sorts).  Acid tubes are the only defense in s1, Trappers don't deal damage in s2 (but help acid to work), and Hives can be killed in a few shots in s3.  However, the build points don't increase.  So on a server with 100 build points, you will see a reduction in some in order to use others.  

Humans would get more structures but more doesn't equal better.  Armories and Defensive computers would still be fragile, even if you could build multiples.  Where are you going to put all this stuff?  In the open?  The major problem for Human builders is replacing damaged structures fast enough to deal with Tyrants.  It would be more snipe fodder for advanced Dragoons.   Also, Defence computers would still be snipable to deactivate any Tesla generations.  More BP would be delaying the inevidable if the Aliens are poised to attack the Human base.  

Increasing BP for kills in S3 would mean longer egg hunts for Humans, faster spawn times for Aliens, and you would have Dretches pouring in from all sides (if you didn't egg hunt to begin with). You can't build structures that cost BP in SD, so accumilating BP would useless at that point for either side.  I think you would have the same outcome, just more damaged structures in the end.

[|Nex|TrEmMa]

A picture's worth a thousand words (you all seemed to be writing about that many, thought I'd get mine in as well )

[TyrranzzX]

This one speaks volumes more.

[|Nex|TrEmMa]

I hate it when people think s3 is the end all-be all of Tremulous.

Tremulous is boring (and isn't Tremulous) when both teams sit there waiting for s3 to magically appear to win the game.

[tomek-k]

Hehe. Nice plots!

Don't know if someone mentioned it before (to many posts - I'm to lazy to read 'em all ) - I think goons should be available in s2 and not in s1 - they are only one class below the tyrant (not counting the adv goon - it is just a small upgrade in my opinion) and are terribly lethal - one pounce is enough to kill a light armoured human.

And I'm sure that the situation presented on the plots is mainly caused by goons available in s1