Author Topic: Cheating  (Read 7430 times)

Undeference

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Cheating
« on: September 29, 2006, 08:26:07 pm »
It is not very clear how to make a distinction between cheating and not cheating with Tremulous, especially when some people have different opinions on what is and what is not cheating. For that reason, I'm going to take a shot at defining cheating in a way that catches all of the clear cases and doesn't have any negatives for legitimate uses.
(The major purpose of this thread is to bring this particular issue to light without reviving a particularly dead unresolved thread.)

I think that cheating is doing one or both of two things:
1. Intentionally exploiting bugs
2. Somehow gaining an unfair advantage over other players

In the first case, I said "intentionally exploiting". This means that if there is a bug that is accidentally run into or even that there is a bug effecting something and that thing is continued, that is not cheating. But intentionally relying on that bug is cheating.
An example of cheating is this case would be if you figured out a way to control when you bounce off the ground and consistently used this to avoid getting hurt.
On the other hand, normal "glitched building" where the buildable's model displays below the actual buildable is not really cheating because that should not happen. But building in locations that cannot be gotten to is cheating. (There are some maps where buildables can be constructed in locations it is not possible to get to, sometimes where building there can be readily done.) In any case, glitched building is misleading and should probably be avoided.

On other games, when I am hosting a server, if I find someone "glitching" (they are careful to say "glitching" instead of "cheating"), I warn them to stop and if they persist, I kick or ban them. Exploiting seemingly harmless bugs is really no different from harmlessly cheating -- imagine using an aimbot with your construction kit: useless and silly, but still cheating.

For example, in one game it is possible to "float" when turning rapidly at the same time as you begin climbing. A lot of times the result is someone floating to the top of the map and plummeting to their deaths. However, this can also be used to get to locations on the maps that are not otherwise accessible.


In the second case, an "unfair" advantage is one that is not reasonably possible without assistance or that circumvents intentional protections for that. Basically, there are people who are really skillful at some games and will be able to accomplish things that seem impossible. This is not cheating. Using tools to assist you to obtain that level is not cheating if these tools do not actually take over any of the game play or remove some object of the game.

This includes qualifying client mods and third party "hacks" (hardware mods, etc.). Anything superfluous doesn't really count as a cheat though, nor does anything that can readily be accomplished in a non-"cheating" way.

To clarify what I mean, take for example key bindings. Many games allow custom binds with multiple customizable commands for the different keys. To use the game's bind system or a third part client that duplicates that functionality is not cheating. But in a game where the binds are highly limited or are not even allowed, that would be cheating. In Tremulous, I can make a bind that repeatedly buys and sells an item at the armoury. In Warcraft, I can't make a bind that recruits units faster (in maps with instantaneous recruiting). In Tremulous, that would not be cheating but in Warcraft it would be.

In most games, a special client mod is often suspect. But in a free software game like Tremulous, there may be legitimate purposes for the modification. For instance, localization. But I do not agree that the availability of a modification changes whether its use is cheating or not.

A few real examples are radar without a helmet, special character models, and alien crosshairs.

Because the radar is available for humans with a helmet and because it gives additional information you would not otherwise have without doing work, it provides an unfair advantage and is a cheat. This does the work of having to turn around and stuff for you, and is unfair.

Using a special character model is not really cheating for two reasons: it could be for a legitimate purpose (e.g., I'm testing some models I made that I want to suggest for use in the next version), and they do not actually assist you in any way. A bright white dretch may be easier to see on some maps, but no easier to see than a normal dretch with certain fairly common cvar settings. Because the effect can be essentially duplicated without "cheating" by modifying variables, I think that should be permitted.

Additionally, there is the legitimate case where one person's vision may be better than another person's. It would be unfair for one person to be able to recognize a slight distortion of a few pixels while someone else cannot. But life is not fair, and allowing it to be evened out somewhat is not that big of a deal.

Finally, the case of an alien crosshair is interesting. A lot of people say it is a cheat because it assists with aiming. However, in actuality all that a crosshair does is add a marker on the center of the screen, something which can be demonstrably accomplished using various software and hardware methods. What it all comes down to is that some people know where the center of their screen is and some people are not yet that comfortable with their screen.
Identifying the center of your screen only aids in aiming to the extent that you might not otherwise know where the center of your screen is. Some people know that and are perfectly fine aiming without a crosshair at all. So in essence, to say that an alien crosshair is cheating is giving those players more familiar with FPS an unfair advantage because they already know where the center of their screen is. The people familiar with FPS will already have the advantage of being able to aim.

Aimbots are cheats because they do the work for you. A client mod that prevents a chaingun from messing with your aim when you are not using a battlesuit is cheating because it is impossible to reasonably counter the effect using just your hand (or feet or whatever). A basilisk's gas is somewhat easier to aim with, but using something to prevent wobbling with that would be circumventing a game feature, essentially making the gas useless (aside from the slight poison damage). This would be similar to making a mod that enables you to turn around in place while being held by a basilisk. Those are very clearly cheating and require manual dexterity to counteract (which is not 100% like an aimbot would be).


So basically my feeling is that if something does work for you or is being used in a way that was not intended, that is cheating. Some kind of automation or special configuration magic doesn't constitute cheating unless it accomplishes something in line with cheating (for example, with certain lag settings, you can make yourself practically impossible to hit while making your targets easier to hit -- that's cheating unless you actually have a really crappy connection).
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rasz_pl

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Cheating
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2006, 08:50:06 pm »
ok, lets get it over with :
https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2845

almost EVERYONE who played alien when humans killed OM cheated.
and after reading this bug description they will do it on purpose :)
/me posts hoping it will speed up patching

Stof

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Cheating
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2006, 09:41:22 pm »
Quote from: "rasz_pl"
ok, lets get it over with :
https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2845

almost EVERYONE who played alien when humans killed OM cheated.
and after reading this bug description they will do it on purpose :)
/me posts hoping it will speed up patching

Still interested with a patched qvm file? :)
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

|Nex|TrEmMa

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Cheating
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2006, 10:24:01 pm »
Quote from: "rasz_pl"
ok, lets get it over with :
https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2845

almost EVERYONE who played alien when humans killed OM cheated.
and after reading this bug description they will do it on purpose :)
/me posts hoping it will speed up patching


Yeah you can build an egg without OM alive.  From the point a full grown OM dies until you can build another you can get an egg up, and if a building OM is killed you can get an egg up when the OM was supposed to finish.
Really adds to the eggspam problem.

Ksempac

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Re: Cheating
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2006, 08:28:36 am »
I agree with you except on two things

Quote from: "Undeference"
Using a special character model is not really cheating for two reasons: it could be for a legitimate purpose (e.g., I'm testing some models I made that I want to suggest for use in the next version), and they do not actually assist you in any way. A bright white dretch may be easier to see on some maps, but no easier to see than a normal dretch with certain fairly common cvar settings. Because the effect can be essentially duplicated without "cheating" by modifying variables, I think that should be permitted.


Maybe you never tried changing the model of a game but its a real advantage. For example, i remembered in my school a guy tried once to put red sprites instead of yellow ones when a weapon is fired (only on the LAN with 4 PC next to each other using the same sprites, so no harm was done ;) ). You could actually see the guy shooting you from 100m away whereas with normal sprites you couldn t. So using a white dretch would allow you to see it easilly even from far away, thing that cant be done only by raising brightness. Conclusion : changing model is a cheat.

Quote
Finally, the case of an alien crosshair is interesting. A lot of people say it is a cheat because it assists with aiming. However, in actuality all that a crosshair does is add a marker on the center of the screen, something which can be demonstrably accomplished using various software and hardware methods. What it all comes down to is that some people know where the center of their screen is and some people are not yet that comfortable with their screen.
Identifying the center of your screen only aids in aiming to the extent that you might not otherwise know where the center of your screen is. Some people know that and are perfectly fine aiming without a crosshair at all. So in essence, to say that an alien crosshair is cheating is giving those players more familiar with FPS an unfair advantage because they already know where the center of their screen is. The people familiar with FPS will already have the advantage of being able to aim.


On this one you contradict all the rest of your post...It looks like you re trying to add an alien crosshair and make this legitimate. Let me explain...

Basically about crosshairs you say :

Some people arent good for aiming because they didnt play enough Trem/others FPS. Some others people are good at aiming because they played enough. So it is perfectly ok for the people who cant aim to use a program outside of the game (i.e. somehting you cant achieve by setting a variable ingame) to balance this.

And for aimbots you say :

Some people arent good for aiming because they didn t play enough Trem/others FPS. Some others people are good at aiming because they played enough. But people who cant aim cant use a program outside of the game (i.e. something you cant achieve by setting a variable ingame) to balance this.

Can you see the problem in your post ? :roll:

As long as it isnt in the official trem's release (we all know it will probably be included in the next release), alien crosshair is a cheat.
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SLAVE|Mietz

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Re: Cheating
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2006, 10:04:29 am »
Quote from: "Ksempac"
I agree with you except on two things

Quote from: "Undeference"
Using a special character model is not really cheating for two reasons: it could be for a legitimate purpose (e.g., I'm testing some models I made that I want to suggest for use in the next version), and they do not actually assist you in any way. A bright white dretch may be easier to see on some maps, but no easier to see than a normal dretch with certain fairly common cvar settings. Because the effect can be essentially duplicated without "cheating" by modifying variables, I think that should be permitted.


Maybe you never tried changing the model of a game but its a real advantage. For example, i remembered in my school a guy tried once to put red sprites instead of yellow ones when a weapon is fired (only on the LAN with 4 PC next to each other using the same sprites, so no harm was done ;) ). You could actually see the guy shooting you from 100m away whereas with normal sprites you couldn t. So using a white dretch would allow you to see it easilly even from far away, thing that cant be done only by raising brightness. Conclusion : changing model is a cheat.

Quote
Finally, the case of an alien crosshair is interesting. A lot of people say it is a cheat because it assists with aiming. However, in actuality all that a crosshair does is add a marker on the center of the screen, something which can be demonstrably accomplished using various software and hardware methods. What it all comes down to is that some people know where the center of their screen is and some people are not yet that comfortable with their screen.
Identifying the center of your screen only aids in aiming to the extent that you might not otherwise know where the center of your screen is. Some people know that and are perfectly fine aiming without a crosshair at all. So in essence, to say that an alien crosshair is cheating is giving those players more familiar with FPS an unfair advantage because they already know where the center of their screen is. The people familiar with FPS will already have the advantage of being able to aim.


On this one you contradict all the rest of your post...It looks like you re trying to add an alien crosshair and make this legitimate. Let me explain...

Basically about crosshairs you say :

Some people arent good for aiming because they didnt play enough Trem/others FPS. Some others people are good at aiming because they played enough. So it is perfectly ok for the people who cant aim to use a program outside of the game (i.e. somehting you cant achieve by setting a variable ingame) to balance this.

And for aimbots you say :

Some people arent good for aiming because they didn t play enough Trem/others FPS. Some others people are good at aiming because they played enough. But people who cant aim cant use a program outside of the game (i.e. something you cant achieve by setting a variable ingame) to balance this.

Can you see the problem in your post ? :roll:

As long as it isnt in the official trem's release (we all know it will probably be included in the next release), alien crosshair is a cheat.


Just take a marker and make a dot in the middle of the screen, its outside of the game (and even any software). this is ridiculous, i think if a noob needs a croshair, he should make one, its not like it would give you MASSIVE advantage.

PHREAK

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Cheating
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2006, 10:12:29 am »
Anyone whos a decent alien pinging higher the 20 knows that the crosshair doesn't do shit. Same as hummies have to lead, so do aliens.

I personally don't care for a crosshait but if someone wants it, I really don't see why they shouldn't have it. There is no real advantage ingame.

What aliens need is something that shows them their range so they can stop running into hummies before slashing, but thats a topic for another day.
Yelling at team mates since 2006!

rasz_pl

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Cheating
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2006, 10:47:47 am »
Quote from: "|Nex|TrEmMa"
Quote from: "rasz_pl"
ok, lets get it over with :
https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2845

almost EVERYONE who played alien when humans killed OM cheated.
and after reading this bug description they will do it on purpose :)
/me posts hoping it will speed up patching


Yeah you can build an egg without OM alive.  From the point a full grown OM dies until you can build another you can get an egg up, and if a building OM is killed you can get an egg up when the OM was supposed to finish.
Really adds to the eggspam problem.


you just rewrote the bug description:), but forgot about evoling, that works too
dont be surprised next time youll see a tyrrant in a game where aliens had no alive om from s2

Stof

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Cheating
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2006, 11:13:02 am »
Quote from: "|Nex|TrEmMa"
Yeah you can build an egg without OM alive.  From the point a full grown OM dies until you can build another you can get an egg up.

What? That one is bugged too? Damn, time for another patch.
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Undeference

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Re: Cheating
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2006, 05:57:22 am »
Quote from: "Ksempac"
On this one you contradict all the rest of your post...It looks like you re trying to add an alien crosshair and make this legitimate. Let me explain...

Basically about crosshairs you say :

Some people arent good for aiming because they didnt play enough Trem/others FPS. Some others people are good at aiming because they played enough. So it is perfectly ok for the people who cant aim to use a program outside of the game (i.e. somehting you cant achieve by setting a variable ingame) to balance this.

And for aimbots you say :

Some people arent good for aiming because they didn t play enough Trem/others FPS. Some others people are good at aiming because they played enough. But people who cant aim cant use a program outside of the game (i.e. something you cant achieve by setting a variable ingame) to balance this.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. Crosshairs don't do any work for you or give you anything you wouldn't already know if you weren't familiar enough with the game. Aimbots, on the other hand, move your focus for you and consistently follow a target. Aiming is an important part of the game and any automation that is not explicitly permitted in that regard is cheating. And again, crosshairs do more for your confidence than your actual aiming.

Quote
You could actually see the guy shooting you from 100m away whereas with normal sprites you couldn t.
set r_picmip 16; vid_restart
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|Nex|TrEmMa

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Cheating
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2006, 09:18:39 am »
Quote from: "rasz_pl"
Quote from: "|Nex|TrEmMa"
Quote from: "rasz_pl"
ok, lets get it over with :
https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2845

almost EVERYONE who played alien when humans killed OM cheated.
and after reading this bug description they will do it on purpose :)
/me posts hoping it will speed up patching


Yeah you can build an egg without OM alive.  From the point a full grown OM dies until you can build another you can get an egg up, and if a building OM is killed you can get an egg up when the OM was supposed to finish.
Really adds to the eggspam problem.


you just rewrote the bug description:), but forgot about evoling, that works too
dont be surprised next time youll see a tyrrant in a game where aliens had no alive om from s2


I didn't read it because my attention span is too short.

Seffylight

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Cheating
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2006, 10:34:23 am »
I use Chompers's HUD, which includes alien crosshairs. I don't see what the big deal is, though. It really doesn't help much at all, it's just nice to have.
Stop it. Seriously.

Lava Croft

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Cheating
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2006, 02:20:03 pm »
Alien crosshairs are cheats. Period. Anyone using Chompers' HUD is a cheater in my book. And, just to clarify, adding a 'aim-helper' tool to your HUD is nothing short of cheating, because if they added nothing helpful to your game, you would not use them. I would like someone like Timbo or Norfenstein to speak their mind about this.

rasz_pl

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Cheating
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2006, 02:40:07 pm »
Quote from: "Lava Croft"
Alien crosshairs are cheats. Period. Anyone using Chompers' HUD is a cheater in my book. And, just to clarify, adding a 'aim-helper' tool to your HUD is nothing short of cheating, because if they added nothing helpful to your game, you would not use them. I would like someone like Timbo or Norfenstein to speak their mind about this.


oh they did, it was something along "will be in next version as a default" :)

Seffylight

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Cheating
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2006, 12:02:16 am »
Quote from: "Lava Croft"
Alien crosshairs are cheats. Period. Anyone using Chompers' HUD is a cheater in my book. And, just to clarify, adding a 'aim-helper' tool to your HUD is nothing short of cheating, because if they added nothing helpful to your game, you would not use them. I would like someone like Timbo or Norfenstein to speak their mind about this.


They make me more comfortable with playing alien. While I've noticed no difference in my actual skill with using aliens then before, it makes me less reluctant to go alien now because I know it'll have that familiarity to it.

If you think it's a cheat, then ban me on SATGNU. Not like I'd be missing anything.
Stop it. Seriously.

Neo

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Cheating
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2006, 12:23:40 am »
If crosshairs for aliens are cheats then they're probably among the most useless around. Firstly as the only 'shooting' weapons aliens have follow a curve and not a straight line, it just means that at a distance they won't tell you where you're aiming at and up close if you can't hit with a barb you shouldn't be playing as an advanced goon/granger.

Just wish people would stop whining about a 'cheat' that has no gameplay advantage apart from feel.

Stof

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Cheating
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2006, 12:27:16 am »
Well, you are wrong : all alien attacks ( even dretch ) are projectile attacks.

Short range, instant fire invisible projectiles but still projectile attacks :) Crossair helps you aim that attack to hit the humans head for example.
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Neo

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Cheating
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2006, 12:41:22 am »
i'd say its more like a proximity damage tag, as projectile involves a moving bullet of some kind.

Tho alien hits seem to be more in the general area of the middle of the screen than dead centre.

beerbitch

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Cheating
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2006, 05:05:29 pm »
1) Take small peice of paper, put in mouth.
2) Chew paper a little, get it nice and wet
3) Take out and roll into ball
4) Stick in center of monitor as crosshair
5) Done.

so, is that cheating ? lol

beerbitch.
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