Author Topic: Humans over powered? (Read 12687 times)

PwNz! · « **on:** October 31, 2006, 08:39:40 pm »

According to this picture

Humans are overpowered...just according to that pic...i think its sorta balanced...cept shot guns should cost more than the mass driver since it does more damage.

Rawr · « **Reply #1 on:** October 31, 2006, 09:24:10 pm »

if you only looked at the pic, and didnt read anything. you would clearly see that aliens have won more games. out of 170536 games, aliens have won 110806 of them. humans have won 59730.

Stof · « **Reply #2 on:** October 31, 2006, 10:16:37 pm »

Quote from: "PwNz!"

According to this picture

http://tremulous.net/balance/Overall.png

Humans are overpowered...just according to that pic...i think its sorta balanced...cept shot guns should cost more than the mass driver since it does more damage.

You've got it all backwards. According to this picture, aliens are overpowered since they win more games than humans, no matter the number of players. It only gets worse with more alien players.

Now, I say we should push the goon one stage later. At least like that, aliens will have the same boring/nothing worth using money on stage 1 than humans have.

Neo · « **Reply #3 on:** October 31, 2006, 10:26:14 pm »

Not really, aliens get jack at Stage 2 and shifting the goon up will leave them with only the marauder as a respectable Stage 1 evo.

The reason humans lose more is they camp and camp and then camp some more and then are suprised that aliens managed to get Stage 3 in under an hour and promptly disconnect. If humans actually attacked they would win more.

beerbitch · « **Reply #4 on:** October 31, 2006, 10:46:04 pm »

I find that lately I'm on winning human teams. The factors I see as common on human winning teams are :

1) camp until s2 (dont feed the aliens)
2) aggressively attack alien base after s2
3) have a base that can withstand s3 aliens when you are s2 human, in case you were not efficient enough at killing them when you reached s2

4) know when to attack the alien base, ie: when you have several goons and/or tyrants attack your base without killing anyone and they die, you know they are out of evo, go attack THEN.

-beerbitch

Stof · « **Reply #5 on:** October 31, 2006, 10:57:34 pm »

Quote from: "Neo"

Not really, aliens get jack at Stage 2 and shifting the goon up will leave them with only the marauder as a respectable Stage 1 evo.

The reason humans lose more is they camp and camp and then camp some more and then are suprised that aliens managed to get Stage 3 in under an hour and promptly disconnect. If humans actually attacked they would win more.

If goon was at stage 2, you wouldn't be able to say that aliens get jack at stage 2 anymore

Door Slammer · « **Reply #6 on:** November 01, 2006, 05:22:54 am »

Quote from: "Stof"

Quote from: "Neo"
Not really, aliens get jack at Stage 2 and shifting the goon up will leave them with only the marauder as a respectable Stage 1 evo.

The reason humans lose more is they camp and camp and then camp some more and then are suprised that aliens managed to get Stage 3 in under an hour and promptly disconnect. If humans actually attacked they would win more.

If goon was at stage 2, you wouldn't be able to say that aliens get jack at stage 2 anymore

IMO, without the goon to get the alien team well on its way to s3 before human s2, s2 humans would win almost every single game.

PwNz! · « **Reply #7 on:** November 01, 2006, 05:34:10 am »

Quote from: "Stof"

Quote from: "PwNz!"
According to this picture

http://tremulous.net/balance/Overall.png

Humans are overpowered...just according to that pic...i think its sorta balanced...cept shot guns should cost more than the mass driver since it does more damage.

You've got it all backwards. According to this picture, aliens are overpowered since they win more games than humans, no matter the number of players. It only gets worse with more alien players.

Now, I say we should push the goon one stage later. At least like that, aliens will have the same boring/nothing worth using money on stage 1 than humans have.

Ah ok ty..lol....meh..alienz rox

[Kcorp]Noobius · « **Reply #8 on:** November 01, 2006, 07:43:26 am »

it's been said 12367438 times that good players tend to go alien and the noobs go for human, thus the silly chart. the game is balanced.

Stof · « **Reply #9 on:** November 01, 2006, 10:02:09 am »

Quote from: "[Kcorp

Noobius"]it's been said 12367438 times that good players tend to go alien and the noobs go for human, thus the silly chart. the game is balanced.

Good point : reading the statistics and not saying automaticaly that the game favors aliens
Bad point : pulling out of your ass that the game is balanced with NOTHING to prove it.

kozak6 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 01, 2006, 04:52:14 pm »

Quote from: "[Kcorp

Noobius"]it's been said 12367438 times that good players tend to go alien and the noobs go for human, thus the silly chart. the game is balanced.

That's mostly pretty true.

A good human team will generally beat a good alien team, though. However, you see a good human team far less often because IMO, the alien team is much more interesting to play as.

Aliens win disproportionately more because humans love to camp, or they just get boxed in until SD hits. Then, the defenses get chomped, and humans are borked.

I've had games where the alien team had a bunch of feeders and boosted the humans to S3 in short order, and the humans still camped like crazy even though we were still S1.

ronin2040 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 02, 2006, 12:52:28 am »

Humans have nothing to counter a goon @ s1?

what about the shottie or chaingun?

a GOOD goon you say?

what about a GOOD player with a painsaw? or a GOOD team of 2 with rifles?

Whether the game is or isnt balanced is probably impossible to prove, but its DAMN near balanced. with all the gadgets @ yer disposal, if ppl would stop camping they might realize that ANY weapon can be deadly against ANY alien (except blaster vs any).

Painsaw can easily kill a careless mara or goon. Shottie easily kill careless bigger aliens, and dretches. Las EASILY catch a wounded, careless anything.

Its when ppl try to rely on the weapon (ie lucispam), and not their skill, that the game seems unbalanced due to a bsuit luci getting owned or their shiney new tyrant falling fodder to a group of shotguns/mass drivers.

Try playing with ONLY a rifle and no armor for a few days. Youll be suprised how versatile a weapon it is. Hell, take any weapon and learn to use it and youll realize that the game is pretty damn well done.

Moving the goons to S2 would make S2 seem like more of an upgrade, but goons really arent s2 material--do you HONESTLY think a goon is equivalent to the top s2 human gear (ie, pulse+armor+battery)? Goons really do seem to be good s1 material.

holyknight · « **Reply #12 on:** November 02, 2006, 03:06:13 am »

SHOTTIES! CHAINGUNS! DA BEST!
I killed all the goons with both shotguns and chainguns, they are da bomb!

Lol i talk weird

BeerBastard · « **Reply #13 on:** November 02, 2006, 04:39:43 am »

I only use goon vs s1 humans. Once humans and aliens hit s2 adv mara is a better choice. If you want a good human game you need to hit s2 first than rush and get s3 while aliens r still s2. Than keep rushing with lucis. If aliens are ahead stage wise ur best bet is to camp until right before sd and rush the eggs. Humans require camping, I get tired of the newbs who think there is never a right time to camp. Honestly if s1 humans rushed against s1 aliens, 9/10 the alien dretchs would tear it up. I have seen games where a saw takes out eggs and aliens dont have a granger but other than that humans need to stay ahead.

PwNz! · « **Reply #14 on:** November 02, 2006, 05:47:46 am »

ooo another topic for some popcorn..lets sit back and watch the people war

1337 1 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 02, 2006, 06:22:35 am »

Quote from: "PwNz!"

ooo another topic for some popcorn..lets sit back and watch the people war

I'm sure you just started this just for that purpose

PHREAK · « **Reply #16 on:** November 02, 2006, 09:46:06 am »

Quote from: "BeerBastard"

.....Humans require camping, I get tired of the newbs who think there is never a right time to camp. Honestly if s1 humans rushed against s1 aliens, 9/10 the alien dretchs would tear it up. I have seen games where a saw takes out eggs and aliens dont have a granger but other than that humans need to stay ahead......

You have no idea how wrong you are about that.
The only way for hummies to win is to rush the alien base in the first few seconds.
This way they kill dretches while the builder moves base, etc. You have to kill as much as possible before the first few goons.
After that, go in groups and wear armor and shotties.
DON'T EVER CAMP! REegradles of stage.
Once humans reach s2, there is no reason in the world why they can't finish the game.
S3 only gets u 2 new things; Lucy and bsuit. neither is required for a winning rush.
If you don't believe a word I just said, come play on Boom Boom and see for yourself.

Stof · « **Reply #17 on:** November 02, 2006, 10:21:49 am »

Quote from: "PHREAK"

You have no idea how wrong you are about that.
The only way for hummies to win is to rush the alien base in the first few seconds.
This way they kill dretches while the builder moves base, etc. You have to kill as much as possible before the first few goons.

This is a receipe for disaster. Of course doing that works, but only because the aliens do not have any competent player available.

And anyway, as soon as a good alien player gets a goon, that tactic fails and you are stuck camping.

PwNz! · « **Reply #18 on:** November 02, 2006, 12:35:03 pm »

Quote from: "1337 1"

Quote from: "PwNz!"
ooo another topic for some popcorn..lets sit back and watch the people war

I'm sure you just started this just for that purpose

:p

Timbo · « **Reply #19 on:** November 02, 2006, 01:44:45 pm »

Tremulous is not balanced. The graph does make it look worse than it is though.

[Kcorp]Noobius · « **Reply #20 on:** November 02, 2006, 08:07:32 pm »

Quote from: "Stof"

Bad point : pulling out of your ass that the game is balanced with NOTHING to prove it.

hey, leave my ass out of this.

PwNz! · « **Reply #21 on:** November 02, 2006, 08:33:38 pm »

Quote from: "Timbo"

Tremulous is not balanced. The graph does make it look worse than it is though.

True

DKG · « **Reply #22 on:** November 02, 2006, 09:02:15 pm »

Do excuse me if I'm paraphrasing something already said (it's so obvious that I'm certain someone, somewhere on the forum has voiced a simmilar view as the following:)

Balance? It's absurd to even attempt to prove one way or another. The margin of tactical/strategic advantages and dissatvantages of both teams is so slim that any 'valid' argument has just as valid a counter.

To establish whether or not Tremulous is balanced would require pitting 2 teams of "balancely skilled" players against each other swithcing race at the end of each game. Repeat the process again and again to get a true view of balance. It's FAR more likely that you find an imbalance in the ("balanced") teams than finding the true answer to race balance.
I've said all this without even touching the subject of agreed definition of "balance".

I personally would much rather play the game I've come to love than try changing it. Trem players vary SO much in skill that, (for me, from experience) every game has that little something special.

Leave the petty balance topic alone, you all enjoy Trem as it is.

pyrax · « **Reply #23 on:** November 02, 2006, 09:38:48 pm »

I think a big help to humans would be a way to get equipment in SD if the armoury is sniped. Based on personal experience, given two teams of pretty much equal skill, if the game doesn't end before SD the aliens eventually win. Not every time but enough to make me think that it's a problem.

Anyone that shares server stats to back this (wildly unfounded!) claim up would be much appreciated.

Also, that green line on the graph seems somehow wrong... the last column (47 players or thereabouts) shows 1 game a piece, yet a bias of .8 for aliens? Perhaps those two points were discarded as outliers...

Neo · « **Reply #24 on:** November 03, 2006, 12:25:11 am »

well the 1 game wouldn't be enough to modify an average made by thousands of games.

The key for humans to win is to push when they get the advantage(S2/3) and keep pushing until the aliens are dead. The SD thing pops up because they camp and suddenly go 'Ohnos I have bullets no morez

how can I camp now?!"

pyrax · « **Reply #25 on:** November 03, 2006, 03:18:19 am »

Quote from: "Neo"

well the 1 game wouldn't be enough to modify an average made by thousands of games.

The key for humans to win is to push when they get the advantage(S2/3) and keep pushing until the aliens are dead. The SD thing pops up because they camp and suddenly go 'Ohnos I have bullets no morez how can I camp now?!"

True, although if that one lone adv. dragoon can get to the empty human base then it's all over. The same can't really be said about a human reaching the alien base... unless he manages to knock out all the eggs and grangers.

stalefries · « **Reply #26 on:** November 03, 2006, 03:58:00 am »

This is my view on the 'what humans need to do to win' issue. Even if humans persistently push, and keep constant pressure on the alien base, they ultimately need to reload/get more ammo. Aliens don't. That's the one reason why (IMO) humans camp. Aliens can very easily keep the humans locked in without having to go back to the base to 'reload'. If there were some sort of way for humans to be able to stay out longer (no, not a battery pack), I think the game would become instantly more 'balanced' (although that's hotly contested).

Stof · « **Reply #27 on:** November 03, 2006, 08:42:10 am »

Quote from: "pyrax"

True, although if that one lone adv. dragoon can get to the empty human base then it's all over. The same can't really be said about a human reaching the alien base... unless he manages to knock out all the eggs and grangers.

It isn't as radical but don't worry that if I can gen into an empty alien base with s3 equipment without falling on a trapper, there won't me many buildings left standing most of the time when I'll leave the base.

Kaleo · « **Reply #28 on:** November 03, 2006, 09:13:37 am »

I think it is fine balance-wise. I was playing this afternoon and we won half of our games (I was Hummies).

Neo · « **Reply #29 on:** November 03, 2006, 09:16:41 am »

2 S2 humans with pulse rifles, not including battery packs can clear an alien base, probably taking a third just in case. When that happens aliens are still S1 and even at S2 they can't do much against a larmour/helmet combo.

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Author Topic: Humans over powered? (Read 12687 times)