Jetpack adjustments

[err]

Something like this has been suggested before, but hear me out - i think this change could actually help balance issues a lot.

Right now, the jetpack is useful for one thing - getting to places on the map that would be hard to get to or unreachable for humans. It's slower than running and much slower than sprinting.

Basicly my idea is to make the jetpack quicker and and easier to maneuver, but limit its ability to fly for long periods of time. More of a "booster" than a jetpack, it would be activated and boosting or off and recharging, and could be used in spurts, not toggled and move slowly in any direction.

Why?

Balance Issues -

Why can s2 aliens manage to hang on against s3 humans until they reach s3, and then quickly dominate?

as soon as aliens hit s2, the builder class can reach anywhere on the map
quickly, and egg spam etc (think transit). Humans stay busy hunting down eggs, but the adv. grangers get away from the humans easily and place more eggs....

Even humans with jetpacks cant catch the adv grangers, because the jetpacks are so slow...

lets reverse the situation, s2 humans against s3 aliens. the humans will probably make it to s3, hold off the aliens for a little while maybe, and then get eaten by tyrants. they will be trapped in their base for most of the time. Their only chance is if one or two players can sneak to the enemy base and destroy the eggs while the aliens are attacking the human base, and hope they didnt have any grangers. But this almost never happens, because aliens move so much faster that they are bound to cross paths with slow-moving humans.

In short -

* Faster jetpacks would give humans a chance against tyrants by allow them to outmaneuver or escape = more goons, less tyrants - cool.

* humans could possibly escape and rebuild base the way aliens can

* goons could still handle jetpackers - the jetpackers wouldnt be able to stay above goon pounce range for as long, and the goon pounce would still be a bit quicker than the jetpack boost at full speed.

* no more jettards (you know what i mean) - jetpacks are now actually useful for maneuvering, not just travel and hanging out above ATCS spamming.

* it would be FUN! the best thing aboubt playing aliens is the speed they move at... why shouldnt humans be in on the fun?

just a thought...

[Stof]

If think it is worth trying.

[kevlarman]

i like the idea, but you're about to get flamed for making a suggestion from NS for trem.

[holyknight]

hope no one will flame, this is a good idea
hah, jettards in ATCS. I do that a lot when I get bored and the game is getting boring (tyrants keep rushing in and out, no changed...)
but if your jetpack is going to be like a booster, how high should it go? High as in the ceiling near the elev room in Karith? Because that's pretty high and no humans could go there if all you do if jump high and go back. And if you change it so the human can jump so high up to the place and down, that's kind of bad, because they people can just run away from aliens all the time

[Neo]

I'd also put in a subnote that if you're on ground level with a jetpack you're still grabbable with a basilisk.

[Survivor]

I'd also put in a subnote that if you're on ground level with a jetpack you're still grabbable with a basilisk.

You posted that just because of what I just did, didn't you  :cry:

[Survivor]

Several points to consider, alien grangers fleeing works so well because the humans can't follow a wallclimbing granger without the jetpack. Just compare a hunt on a normal granger vs a hunt on an adv granger. The key to eliminating adv grangers is teamwork while ordinary grangers might even be killed by a simple blaster.

Your change would do nothing for conkits being chased by a not tyrant alien. Why? Because the aliens already have the z-axis mobility. Besides the fact that aliens can build away from om while the human needs to be in range of the reactor to build. It's the fact that human builder has to stay near the reactor that makes him easy prey.

When someone jetpacks up, and doesn't land high he falls. Fall damage follows.

Jetpacks are also used for exact placement of structures on small ledges. This change would make that nigh impossible.

The thing just is that aliens were meant to be very agile while humans weren't.

[kozak6]

Right now, the jetpack is useful for one thing - getting to places on the map that would be hard to get to or unreachable for humans.

And that's what it's meant for.  It's the human equivalent to wallwalking.  Nothing more.

Speedy jetpacks would tremendously boost the human's offensive abilities.

Once again, I vote that the game is mostly fine how it is.

[Paradox]

On another one of my maps, where there is a large open area, above the goon pouncing area, i put a huge damage brush, so any jettards attempting to go up high dies.

[Kobrakai]

hah, jettards in ATCS.

I got the word jettard defined in the dictionary

I disagree with this idea. Whilst it might be interesting for a minute or two, overall the jetpack configuration is fine the way it is. It's tremulous, not starseige: tribes. Let the jetpack be as it was intended.

[holyknight]

hah, jettards in ATCS.

I got the word jettard defined in the dictionary

oh my goodness in my icecream that is freaking hilirious!

[vcxzet]

well replace jetpack with anti-gravity boots

[Ksempac]

Its nice to see someone proposing a real idea, with a nice argumentation because it doesnt happen much on this forum :/

However i disagree with you.

Slow but infinite jetpack allows more than reaching high places :

- Protection for builders : Aliens around your base ? No problem just get high in the sky and most of them cant reach you anymore
- Protection against tyrant : if the place is high enough, tyrant cant reach you, thats a way to get out of your base when you re S3 with few credits (and it also works against noobs goons/maras)
- Sky attacks of the alien base (i m refering to Arachnid default base here)

For theses 3, If you only have a booster, the alien just need you to run out of fuel and get you.

We can also add :
- Cleaning of alien base : When everything is on a high ceiling, you prefer having an infinite, stable jetpack so that you can properlly aim for the hidden eggs/tubes rather than going up and down (or keeping a key pressed to stay high)
- Control of a zone : Yeah i know 80% of people pretending to control a zone are only jettards flying 100 m above the map. Here i m speaking about people who know what are they doing.
Staying just above the door level allows you to surprise the alien...Not just see him pouncing in your face once the door is opened (because he saw a point on his radar so he knows you re behind).
You would be surprised at the number of aliens you can shoot if you re not so high : they just cant think a dangerous human can be above them. You dont need to be out of pounce range...just higher than the hole for the door. You avoid the pounce, you get some clear shots, and then you can finish the job on the ground.

Moreover two of your arguments are flawed because you state it would be cool if humans were closer to aliens...One of the good thing is Trem is the 2 different teams. For once, its not only Red vs Blue.

[Undeference]

as soon as aliens hit s2, the builder class can reach anywhere on the map
quickly, and egg spam etc (think transit). Humans stay busy hunting down eggs, but the adv. grangers get away from the humans easily and place more eggs....

Even humans with jetpacks cant catch the adv grangers, because the jetpacks are so slow...

The problem with not killing advanced grangers is the same as with basilisks and dretches. People are used to playing Doom and Doom II. What is this Z-axis thingy?

You would be surprised at the number of aliens you can shoot if you re not so high : they just cant think a dangerous human can be above them.

Presumably if an alien is about to go through a door, it can hear the jetpacker right behind it. I'm not expecting rocket science here, just the ability to realize that the man made sound coming from behind a door is likely to be made by the human right behind the door.

[Survivor]

The problem with not killing advanced grangers is the same as with basilisks and dretches. People are used to playing Doom and Doom II. What is this Z-axis thingy?

Z-axis, up and down direction.

[kevlarman]

well replace jetpack with anti-gravity boots

it's called a lucifer cannon.

[techhead]

Kevlarman irradiated himself.

Seriously, the worst are people who jettard with Lucifer Cannon, and the people with no ammo left, using a blaster because they don't want to come down.

[err]

Thanks for your responses, i'll reply to the ones i consider somewhat valid and ignore the rest.

...you state it would be cool if humans were closer to aliens...One of the good thing is Trem is the 2 different teams. For once, its not only Red vs Blue.

good point. however, nobody said the two sides have to be totally different... thus, some aliens have projectiles, humans have the painsaw, jetpack, etc...

...overall the jetpack configuration is fine the way it is. It's tremulous, not starseige: tribes. Let the jetpack be as it was intended.

i really dislike this kind of reasoning. who cares if its similar to tribes or ns or whatever, maybe thats because its a good idea. nobody is going to mistake trem for tribes because the jetpacks act similar, and this kind of similarity to another game wont inherently decrease the quality of trem.

Speedy jetpacks would tremendously boost the human's offensive abilities.

thats kind of what im going for, humans could use a boost, offensive or defensive or both. This might be a good way to do it without making rediculously powerful weapons. I dont envision the boost being that "tremendous" though, as new limitations would be introduced, and using a jetpack still limits the other equipment you can carry.

Your change would do nothing for conkits being chased by a not tyrant alien. Why? Because the aliens already have the z-axis mobility. Besides the fact that aliens can build away from om while the human needs to be in range of the reactor to build. It's the fact that human builder has to stay near the reactor that makes him easy prey.

the intention is that the speed boost (not just on the z axis) _would_ give humans a chance to get away. Unpowered telenodes are still functional, is it true that they can't be built in unpowered areas? i haven't noticed that. if so maybe that should change as well.

When someone jetpacks up, and doesn't land high he falls. Fall damage follows.

i know, brilliant right?

Jetpacks are also used for exact placement of structures on small ledges. This change would make that nigh impossible.

exageration. it would be harder but not nearly impossible. as s1 granger i often place structures while jumping, this would be similar.

The thing just is that aliens were meant to be very agile while humans weren't.

addressed earlier. humans in general would still not be very agile, but they would have the option - just as aliens are in general agile, but have the option to not be (tyrants).

[Ksempac]

Your change would do nothing for conkits being chased by a not tyrant alien. Why? Because the aliens already have the z-axis mobility. Besides the fact that aliens can build away from om while the human needs to be in range of the reactor to build. It's the fact that human builder has to stay near the reactor that makes him easy prey.

the intention is that the speed boost (not just on the z axis) _would_ give humans a chance to get away. Unpowered telenodes are still functional, is it true that they can't be built in unpowered areas? i haven't noticed that. if so maybe that should change as well.

I forgot to reply to you on this one : Yes Telenodes cant be built in an unpowered area, and that s the only thing that prevents humans from rebuilding elsewhere when the final alien rush happens. When you know the map, and how players usually react, you can escape the rush. Often I manage to escape and find a safe place but re-building the reactor is just too long since every single alien has a radar.

If telenodes could be built without power, then humans would be able to spam them like the grangers do with their eggs. But a granger is slow, and cant defend itself. Human builder can use a BS/a jetpack, and have a medkit. So telenodes spamming would be even worse than egg spamming.

[Stof]

I forgot to reply to you on this one : Yes Telenodes cant be built in an unpowered area, and that s the only thing that prevents humans from rebuilding elsewhere when the final alien rush happens. When you know the map, and how players usually react, you can escape the rush. Often I manage to escape and find a safe place but re-building the reactor is just too long since every single alien has a radar.

If telenodes could be built without power, then humans would be able to spam them like the grangers do with their eggs. But a granger is slow, and cant defend itself. Human builder can use a BS/a jetpack, and have a medkit. So telenodes spamming would be even worse than egg spamming.

Worse in the sense that you'll have a team of humans with a ckit that can't defend themselves, without armor and without jetpack against a team of aliens with radar chasing them everywhere. I wouldn't bet my money on the human team in that situation.

And this is wihtout counting the bug which makes aliens capable of building eggs even without an OM on the level which doesn't apply to humans.

[Survivor]

exageration. it would be harder but not nearly impossible. as s1 granger i often place structures while jumping, this would be similar.

Any alien can jump an unlimited number of times. Every human needs to rest after 3 jumps.

[Taiyo.uk]

I've been thinking about the jetpack physics - how about a more realistic physics model where the jetpack provides an acceleration and the player's speed changes accordingly with time. There could be a hover mode to stay still where it's acceleration is equal to (but in the opposite direction of) that of map gravity.

It feels strange plummeting down a huge drop and hitting the jetpack for half a second to not sustain any fall damage.

In other words the jetpack provides a constant up/down (or no) acceleration as opposed to the current pack which provides a constant up/down speed. This will still be functional as it is now but require a little more skill to use

[kevlarman]

I've been thinking about the jetpack physics - how about a more realistic physics model where the jetpack provides an acceleration and the player's speed changes accordingly with time. There could be a hover mode to stay still where it's acceleration is equal to (but in the opposite direction of) that of map gravity.

It feels strange plummeting down a huge drop and hitting the jetpack for half a second to not sustain any fall damage.

In other words the jetpack provides a constant up/down (or no) acceleration as opposed to the current pack which provides a constant up/down speed. This will still be functional as it is now but require a little more skill to use

but that's the only reason i ever use it, please don't break my parachute on transit:(

[Survivor]

I've been thinking about the jetpack physics - how about a more realistic physics model where the jetpack provides an acceleration and the player's speed changes accordingly with time. There could be a hover mode to stay still where it's acceleration is equal to (but in the opposite direction of) that of map gravity.

It feels strange plummeting down a huge drop and hitting the jetpack for half a second to not sustain any fall damage.

In other words the jetpack provides a constant up/down (or no) acceleration as opposed to the current pack which provides a constant up/down speed. This will still be functional as it is now but require a little more skill to use

That sounds nice, and the drop tactic actually is still possible it just needs to be started a bit earlier.

[Quaoar]

Kevlarman irradiated himself.

Seriously, the worst are people who jettard with Lucifer Cannon, and the people with no ammo left, using a blaster because they don't want to come down.

My vote is still for lucy spammers. Hell, I hate lucy spammers even more when FF is NOT on, because at least they can kill me and learn their lesson with FF, but otherwise they just shove me directly into a tyrant and cant figure out that it's their fault.

[Taiyo.uk]

It'll still be useful as a parachute, you just need to know when to turn it on, hence the extra skill.