Possibilities for a Tremulous gameplay mod?

[Risujin]

Was talking with some guy called {SGA}Orc the other day about the currently unbalanced gameplay. His impression was 4 to 1 alien wins in general which I did not disagree with. I'd had a look at the SVN source and thought a bit about possible gameplay additions that could be tried out in a Tremulous mod.

These are big generalizations and its not always the case but, the big issues I see right now are:
Human turret roosting.
Humans can only attack or safely move base when S2 and superior to alien stage level.

My ideas:
Make blaster useful -- add area effect and large knock back so someone with ckit can fend off dretches.
Ckit should cool down even when its not in use. (Is this a bug?)
An alien grenade that hurts players only. Say maybe, Advanced Dretch (1 evo), give it a pounce ability and if it is shot while pouncing (usually by a turret while pouncing at camping humies), it explodes with large area effect but if the Dretch is not shot after pounce, it dies (so as this will only be used to clear turret campers).
A medic pack for portable human healing would give humans alien-style healing and would also heal nearby teammates one at a time.
Tyrant health to 300.

What does the Trem community think? What are your ideas?

[Captain Ventris]

WHY DO NUBS NEVER KNOW ABOUT THE MEDKIT?

[n00b pl0x]

i think he might be talking about having a pack that goes in the place of battpacks and jetpacks that gives constant healing and isnt a 1 time shot thing...dont be so quick to judge people are morons...

[Risujin]

WHY DO NUBS NEVER KNOW ABOUT THE MEDKIT?

Zomg whats a medkit?!?!?!

No, I'm talking about a medic PACK like a battery PACK.

[n00b pl0x]

WHY DO NUBS NEVER KNOW ABOUT THE MEDKIT?

Zomg whats a medkit?!?!?!

No, I'm talking about a medic PACK like a battery PACK.

Pwnt. I also like that idea...a few lucky dretches get some hits on me and my one pack is gone it makes me feel...exposed :oops:

[Predalienator]

Isnt the medipack in Trem X?Take a look at the mod or ask vxcet how he made the medi pack wich is name biobelt i think in the mod.

[techhead]

I think he means for healing other people, like a medic in some other games.

[Lakitu7]

TremX has advanced dretch with Pounce and the Bio Enhancer for humans that gives regen. It also lets ckits heal people with right mouse button. Goof around on the Bricosoft server sometime and see how it works for you.

[holyknight]

ckit hitting sounds nice, a harmless humans is no more harmless
I would LOVE to use that in game, NOW WITH CKIT SUICIDE SQUAD! YAY!

[Risujin]

TremX has advanced dretch with Pounce and the Bio Enhancer for humans that gives regen. It also lets ckits heal people with right mouse button. Goof around on the Bricosoft server sometime and see how it works for you.

I finally got that mod to work using TJW's backport (the instructions really need to be more clear about this but anyway...).

I've actually heard of this mod before, and IIRC the tag line was that this mod was to unbalance Trem even more than it was before. It pretty much does this too.

The mod removes goon sniping making human camping that much more effective. It adds a super-tyrant of 600 hp (!?) as if aliens need one.

Humans do get the Biobelt and some other minor boosting accessories but they end up even more inferior to the aliens.

I dont want to seem overly judgemental. The TremX guys did put in a lot of work here, but this mod just makes whats bad about Trem worse!

[Seffylight]

It also adds mara sniping. And the tyrant has one spit ball too that acts as a grenade as well.

[Glunnator]

The one question that has already been awnsered many times, and yet it comes back. 'why is trem so unbalanced?'

Awnser: It isn't. its just that aliens win more because to more experienced players prefer playing aliens to the oh-so-common FPShooter of the humans.

Thats all there is to it! case closed! thread locked! bla!bla!bla!

[doomagent13]

The one question that has already been awnsered many times, and yet it comes back. 'why is trem so unbalanced?'

Awnser: It isn't. its just that aliens win more because to more experienced players prefer playing aliens to the oh-so-common FPShooter of the humans.

Thats all there is to it! case closed! thread locked! bla!bla!bla!

Not always true; the biggest problem with humans is that most of the time they CONTINUE camping after s2 or s3 is reached.  This is an even bigger problem if the aliens are a stage or 2 behind.  If the humans attacked even as a semi-team, they could probably beat most alien teams on most maps; they just "never" do that. :eek:    :O  D:    :-?  :roll:      

[Seffylight]

Humans are the stronger team, anyway. An organized team of humans beats an equally skilled team of aliens.

[Predalienator]

TremX has advanced dretch with Pounce and the Bio Enhancer for humans that gives regen. It also lets ckits heal people with right mouse button. Goof around on the Bricosoft server sometime and see how it works for you.

I finally got that mod to work using TJW's backport (the instructions really need to be more clear about this but anyway...).

I've actually heard of this mod before, and IIRC the tag line was that this mod was to unbalance Trem even more than it was before. It pretty much does this too.

The mod removes goon sniping making human camping that much more effective. It adds a super-tyrant of 600 hp (!?) as if aliens need one.

Humans do get the Biobelt and some other minor boosting accessories but they end up even more inferior to the aliens.

I dont want to seem overly judgemental. The TremX guys did put in a lot of work here, but this mod just makes whats bad about Trem worse!

Check the Trem X backport thread.You,ll notice a new version of Trem X that doesnt have adv tyrant and is more balanced to me

[Risujin]

Check the Trem X backport thread.You,ll notice a new version of Trem X that doesnt have adv tyrant and is more balanced to me

I only saw the Bricosoft server. Every mod needs a server, where do you play the balanced version? (And removing the super tyrant would not fix TremX!)

[Risujin]

Everyone has their opinion on whether Trem is balanced or not. There is a huge thread on this forum (about camping) about it in fact. Any discussion of a Balance mod not only assumes the game is unbalanced but needs to get to the root of the problem.

'why is trem so unbalanced?'
Awnser: It isn't. its just that aliens win more because to more experienced players prefer playing aliens to the oh-so-common FPShooter of the humans.

Just the fact that people are even talking about it means its true. You never hear people on the CS forums whining "Ohh the Terrorists always win! CS is unbalanced!", because CS is a finely balanced game (if only because everybody can get more or less the same guns for whatever reason). Most experienced players play Aliens because they know from experience Aliens is easier and will win if only you hit S3. Honest pros will play humans only ({SGA}Orc) because humans is harder.

Not always true; the biggest problem with humans is that most of the time they CONTINUE camping after s2 or s3 is reached. This is an even bigger problem if the aliens are a stage or 2 behind. If the humans attacked even as a semi-team, they could probably beat most alien teams on most maps; they just "never" do that.

The fact that aliens reaching S3 means doom for humans, or SD is unfair to humans, is a balance issue. This is the sort of thing we want to change.
1) Camping humans should be killable by aliens.
2) S3 humans should be able to fight 1 to 1 with S3 aliens.

Humans are the stronger team, anyway. An organized team of humans beats an equally skilled team of aliens.

Yes putting all the noobs on the alien team will solve the problem. Perhaps we should just write a mod that shuffles players by skill? I think people would complain.  

[Neo]

Nah, humans aren't harder unless you feed them to S3.

Also any human can get a bsuit and chaingun and rape a tyrant/advanced goon, they just never try. Hell i've seen bsuits running from dretches which is a bit pathetic.

[Stof]

Also any human can get a bsuit and chaingun and rape a tyrant/advanced goon, they just never try. Hell i've seen bsuits running from dretches which is a bit pathetic.

I need YOU in my team in s3. I have yet to see a human be able to kill 1vs1 a Tyrant or an Adv Goon when played by a good alien player. Well, I have seen them killed, but 90% of the time, the alien wins.

PS : I said a good alien player. Very important.

[kevlarman]

Also any human can get a bsuit and chaingun and rape a tyrant/advanced goon, they just never try. Hell i've seen bsuits running from dretches which is a bit pathetic.

I need YOU in my team in s3. I have yet to see a human be able to kill 1vs1 a Tyrant or an Adv Goon when played by a good alien player. Well, I have seen them killed, but 90% of the time, the alien wins.

PS : I said a good alien player. Very important.

i come out on top against a good adv. goon about 50% of the time if i have a bsuit/luci, and i have much room to improve. against tyrants, the best solution is to bring a friend.

[InfernoX347]

Also any human can get a bsuit and chaingun and rape a tyrant/advanced goon, they just never try. Hell i've seen bsuits running from dretches which is a bit pathetic.

I need YOU in my team in s3. I have yet to see a human be able to kill 1vs1 a Tyrant or an Adv Goon when played by a good alien player. Well, I have seen them killed, but 90% of the time, the alien wins.

PS : I said a good alien player. Very important.

I played this game a while ago, then I stopped for a bit.

I used to take on tyrants and goons with a shotgun and lightarmor/helmet.

The reason the game seems unbalanced is because while the humans camp behind their turrets, the aliens save up evo points, picking off stray humans.

By the time most alien players reach S3, the humans have roughly 1000 credits each(If they are playing their best, most players will get more though), the aliens could have 20 evo points.

Tyrant> Rifle wielding light armor/helmet

Oh and tyrants can basically kill turrets in 1-2 hits, so the walls of defences dont work so good anymore.

[Stof]

I said GOOD alien players I was able to kill quite a few not bad goons with a rifle if you care.


PS : not that exceptional since the rifle does the same damage per second than the shotgun. The only part where it is weaker is that you need to reload every 150 damage whereas with the shotgun, you have to reload every 450 damage

[Vector_Matt]

the aliens could have 20 evo points.

That's impossible, unless you mean the entire alien team had 20 points all together.

[techhead]

He probably means 20 points if there wasn't a cap.

Maybe we should have a soft cap.
After 9 points or 2000 credits, it only gives you one half your normal credits from kills, and no camping credits at all.

[Orc]

Well first of all that aliens win 4 times as often when both teams are stage3 is not speculation, its fact http://www.tremulous.net/balance/Overall_AS3vsHS3.png

Secondly the 2 main factors that make tremulous unbalanced are the tyrant and the alien regeneration. The tyrants mix of speed power and defense are unmatchable, and the ability to regen anywhere on the map gives the aliens a natural advantage. The humans have a base and then random humans moving around the map between their base and alien base. The aliens have a base, but then they also have aliens hiding all over the map, creating a kind of buffer that weakens or kills the humans long before they ever reach the actual base.

[kozak6]

I don't think it's so much that.  Tyrants are mostly fine.  In my opinion, Tyrants are balanced fairly well with well armed Bsuits.

In fact, I would even go so far as saying that if played properly,, humans are the stronger team.  The main problem is that experienced players prefer to be bugs, so they tend to win more in general.

Also, at S3, generally humans end up camping (or get boxed into their base), SD hits, and their defenses get whittled down until the alien team is finally able to storm in and finish it.

[doomagent13]

In my opinion, the reason the aliens get most of the experienced players is because they dont want to wait for an opening on humans.  If everyone joining a team was auto auto-selected, the game would probably be about evenly balanced.  Unless there is a noob alien team, or some lucky human who painsaws the om and eggs, the humans NEED to work as a team to defeat the aliens--meaning you DONT go 1v1 with a tyrant, you make it 2 or 3 v 1.  The other thing is you need not everyone to get luci--its almost impossible to hit a fleeing alien with one, unless its coming towards you.  IF you manage to stage an attack on the alien base, you need to think about each weapons special characteristics--flamer can be best for taking spawns down if there arent defenses as it will fry most if not all spawning aliens; psaw is best for taking down om, but I wouldnt go after a spawn or defenses without support; pulse rifle is generally the best alien base killer, but its bad against actual aliens because of the ease with which it can be dodged.

Support for my opinion: The fact that many good players end up on aliens.  Also, most of the time I use auto-select because I dont really care what team I use, and I dont feel like waiting for an opening on a specific team.  Most of the time I end up playing aliens.

[techhead]

I usually hit auto-select, but I have only played humans on Derelict once.

[kevlarman]

If everyone joining a team was auto auto-selected, the game would probably be about evenly balanced

this is completely true, and i think i can get the numbers to back it up. one server went from 85% alien wins to 54% alien wins with the g_forceautoselect patch i wrote.