My Very First Suggestion Thread

[Orc]

Most of you probably know me, for those who don't you can my word that im a fairly competent player. I've played for a decent while now and I thought I would voice my opinion on the many aspects of trem and what could change, some of the changes are just brainstorming and might seem rather radical so not all are meant to be given the same weight.

1 First off, friendly fire, no, just no, anybody can play trem and know its clearly not meant for ff, as the balance theory seems to require multiple humans to bring down a single tyrant or other large alien, ff only hurts humans and causes them to camp even more than they otherwise would. maybe have ff for certain weapons like luci, flamer, and grenade but otherwise it should be disabled for normal weapons fire.

2 Egg spamming, when a teams sole strategy is to build eggs all over the map while a select few dretches kill the occasional human in order to survive till stage3, knowing that the tyrant is the trump of anything the humans could hope to bring, something is wrong. when such a strategy is an effective one, something is very wrong. I would suggest making newly built eggs have a delay of 10-20 seconds before they can spawn any aliens, and make still building eggs more noticeable, as they are hard to see in darkness or with a suit.

3 Let a battlesuit carry multiple grenades

4 Alien regen is very powerful, and makes it so the larger the map the more it favors aliens. On a large map a group of humans attacking toward alien base need pass thru a large amount of neutral territory, all an alien need do is jump into the fray and get one slash then run away. the alien can just sit in the next room healing waiting to attack again while the human must run all the way back to base to refill or risk continuing on at less than full status. I think this is the primary reason for the majority of human camping. regeneration also plays a role in making the tyrant the powerhouse that it is. my suggestion is to disable regen when the om is down, or slow regen outside a certain radius of an egg or the om

5 The tyrant is a monster and even in the hands of a noob at the very least it can soak damage for teammates, and the classic "oh 2 chainsuits or 2-3 (insert human class here) can kill a single tyrant" as if requiring 2-3 vs 1 is fair, and what about those games where there are 3 or 4 tyrants, humans are supposed to require 6-12 players to bring them down? It seems to me that a nerf for tyrant is clearly needed, but one that wont hurt them so much they lose their use, i propose that you change charge, as is the tyrant steers like a sports car, turning on a dime in mid charge, i think that the charge speed should be lost if you turn too far from the original direction you were facing when you started charging. I would say that about 45degrees or so from the original direction, enough that you can adjust to chase humans but not so much that you can zig zag around corners to escape. the other change is to the evos, i dont think a tyrant should get evo for kills of humans with less than a certain amount of value in their equipment, say 250-400, that way a tyrant cant just whore naked rifles all day for unlimited evo, he has to actually kill something challenging if he wants another tyrant.

6 I think the damage of an exploding turret should be increased drastically to discourage placing the turrets in as small a space as possible. if one turret dies and explodes, it should do enough damage to kill any other turret that is very close to it.

7 the flamethrower is a downright useless weapon, its kind of a joke, whos more noob? the flamer or the one that he kills? it would be much more useful if it had a bit more range, and the flames traveled thru the air somewhat faster so that you cant catch your own fire when you sprint, beyond that some kind of napalm effect where it sticks to surfaces and burns humans or aliens that pass through it might be neat but probably hard to balance.

8 The Luci is just stupid, it kills bases and dretches and not much else, any decent alien can just sidestep the shot or a tyrant will charge straight into a luci knowing that even if it gets hit the first time it can kill the luci before it has time to charge a second fatal shot. I think that any alien that eats a direct hit from a luci but survives should be blinded for a half second or so, giving the human that shot him the chance to finish him off or run away.

9 I agree with the jetpack suggestion, that it should be a burst of height, rather than a treestand in the sky.

10 I think that you should be prioritized in the spawn queue based on your kills and deaths.

11 there should be a delay in spawning for feeders, every death should increase your spawn delay by 1 second. that way noobs that die a lot early wont be able to spawn as fast late game, but good players who conserve their deaths early can respawn faster late game when they need to.

12 Nothing is worse than when you go to pounce as a dragoon and your pounce is stopped premature by something stupid like a small ledge you bumped into, trying to pounce up stairs is the prime example, you cant because as soon as you pounce you touch the next stair and it considers you as landed and your full pounce stops 1ft away. I would like to see a small delay of a quarter to a half second after you pounce during which your pounce will not stop due to touching the ground or other small ledge.

13 headbites are pretty cheesy, i mean they are so easy that they are the average rather than the exception, i think headbites should be harder to get on humans, you shouldnt be able to headbite a human from the ground as any alien, especially a dretch or dragoon.

14 I think the humans should get incentive to make a forward base, perhaps 20-30 special buildpoints that can only be used on structures OUTSIDE the range of the reactor. 24 points would allow for a medpad and 2 turrets at said forward base which seems good to me.

Well this is everything i can think of right now, discuss and criticize as you will, but please refrain from the comments about how tremulous is perfectly balanced and no changes are needed, we all know it isnt true im not sure who you guys are still trying to fool with that act.

[kozak6]

1.  I disagree.  Unless your human team is really bad, it shouldn't take that many to attack larger aliens.  But anyways, depending on server settings, FF hurts bugs at least as much as much as it hurts humans.  Goon pounce can be really nasty on some servers.  Tyrant tramples are deadlier to bugs than they are to humans.  Bugs can poison each other.  Because blocking is a problem, it's not uncommon for big bugs to kill any other bug that gets in their way.

With humans, as long as you watch where you shoot and don't randomly spam, you generally shouldn't have problems.

2.  It's not a problem at all maps.  Although it depends on the map, egg hunts are generally more successful than not.  And maybe humans should work on improving their base in the meantime.  Eggs can be detected with the helmet just fine.  

3.  Why?  1 single grenade can do 310 damage.

4.  Hmm...

5.  Most of those points could be made about Bsuits as well.

6.  Perhaps a little drastic.  I wouldn't take it quite that far, though, although maybe a touch more damage would be ok.  If it was your way, wouldn't one exploding turret set off a base wrecking chain reaction?  Although a little OT, I'd also like to point out that deconning structures that are about to explode is a super cool strategy.

7.  It's fine.  At 100 damage per second, it should be hard to use.  It already drops dretches like bug spray.  It's a niche weapon, I guess.

8.  No.  It would encourage spamming.  The Lucy is very strong as it is.  A fully charged direct hit will kill anything smaller than a Tyrant anyways.

9.  So basically, you want a Tribes jetpack.  None of the other threads about it went well.

10.  What's wrong with first come, first serve?

11.  This would make things really shitty for builders and players who join at S3, and by the time it slows feeders down, the damage will have already been done.  This would also make camping a hell of a lot more effective, and would generally favor humans as a whole.

12.  Getting stuck on walls or crap hanging from the ceiling as a Marauder comes pretty close  :wink: .  I just overshoot the stairs when possible.

13.  Meh, headbites are fine.  If you have lag, it makes headbites a hell of a lot harder.

14.  Go play at SST.

[|Nex|TrEmMa]

1 Have you ever been on a team full of noobs on a non=ff non-dretch punt server?  It sucks to the highest degree.  You want to kill your teammates more than the other team.

2 Hopefully that rumor about radius to om is true and in a few years when the next version is released it will be better (not necessarily fixed).

3

4 Or we could burn Transit

5 Tyrants get criticized too much

6 I like my compact bases

7 I love the flamethrower.  When you know the other team is low on evos you can grab run.  Not too many people know how to use them right.  Run at the aliens not away...

8 I want a rocket launcher

9 huh?

10 elitist

11 or they spawn into another map

12 blah blah blah

13 ground headbites do need to be removed, but aliens should get adv goons at s2

14 i'd rather see the ability to make turrets imaginary, so you dont have to decon them and watch a noob replace them, and they dont eat power

"insert tremulous is balanced with skilled players jargon here"
"insert oh no another noob who found the forums comments here"
"insert objection here"

[Kolaris]

Most of you probably know me, for those who don't you can my word that im a fairly competent player. I've played for a decent while now and I thought I would voice my opinion on the many aspects of trem and what could change, some of the changes are just brainstorming and might seem rather radical so not all are meant to be given the same weight.

1 First off, friendly fire, no, just no, anybody can play trem and know its clearly not meant for ff, as the balance theory seems to require multiple humans to bring down a single tyrant or other large alien, ff only hurts humans and causes them to camp even more than they otherwise would. maybe have ff for certain weapons like luci, flamer, and grenade but otherwise it should be disabled for normal weapons fire.

2 Egg spamming, when a teams sole strategy is to build eggs all over the map while a select few dretches kill the occasional human in order to survive till stage3, knowing that the tyrant is the trump of anything the humans could hope to bring, something is wrong. when such a strategy is an effective one, something is very wrong. I would suggest making newly built eggs have a delay of 10-20 seconds before they can spawn any aliens, and make still building eggs more noticeable, as they are hard to see in darkness or with a suit.

3 Let a battlesuit carry multiple grenades

4 Alien regen is very powerful, and makes it so the larger the map the more it favors aliens. On a large map a group of humans attacking toward alien base need pass thru a large amount of neutral territory, all an alien need do is jump into the fray and get one slash then run away. the alien can just sit in the next room healing waiting to attack again while the human must run all the way back to base to refill or risk continuing on at less than full status. I think this is the primary reason for the majority of human camping. regeneration also plays a role in making the tyrant the powerhouse that it is. my suggestion is to disable regen when the om is down, or slow regen outside a certain radius of an egg or the om

5 The tyrant is a monster and even in the hands of a noob at the very least it can soak damage for teammates, and the classic "oh 2 chainsuits or 2-3 (insert human class here) can kill a single tyrant" as if requiring 2-3 vs 1 is fair, and what about those games where there are 3 or 4 tyrants, humans are supposed to require 6-12 players to bring them down? It seems to me that a nerf for tyrant is clearly needed, but one that wont hurt them so much they lose their use, i propose that you change charge, as is the tyrant steers like a sports car, turning on a dime in mid charge, i think that the charge speed should be lost if you turn too far from the original direction you were facing when you started charging. I would say that about 45degrees or so from the original direction, enough that you can adjust to chase humans but not so much that you can zig zag around corners to escape. the other change is to the evos, i dont think a tyrant should get evo for kills of humans with less than a certain amount of value in their equipment, say 250-400, that way a tyrant cant just whore naked rifles all day for unlimited evo, he has to actually kill something challenging if he wants another tyrant.

6 I think the damage of an exploding turret should be increased drastically to discourage placing the turrets in as small a space as possible. if one turret dies and explodes, it should do enough damage to kill any other turret that is very close to it.

7 the flamethrower is a downright useless weapon, its kind of a joke, whos more noob? the flamer or the one that he kills? it would be much more useful if it had a bit more range, and the flames traveled thru the air somewhat faster so that you cant catch your own fire when you sprint, beyond that some kind of napalm effect where it sticks to surfaces and burns humans or aliens that pass through it might be neat but probably hard to balance.

8 The Luci is just stupid, it kills bases and dretches and not much else, any decent alien can just sidestep the shot or a tyrant will charge straight into a luci knowing that even if it gets hit the first time it can kill the luci before it has time to charge a second fatal shot. I think that any alien that eats a direct hit from a luci but survives should be blinded for a half second or so, giving the human that shot him the chance to finish him off or run away.

9 I agree with the jetpack suggestion, that it should be a burst of height, rather than a treestand in the sky.

10 I think that you should be prioritized in the spawn queue based on your kills and deaths.

11 there should be a delay in spawning for feeders, every death should increase your spawn delay by 1 second. that way noobs that die a lot early wont be able to spawn as fast late game, but good players who conserve their deaths early can respawn faster late game when they need to.

12 Nothing is worse than when you go to pounce as a dragoon and your pounce is stopped premature by something stupid like a small ledge you bumped into, trying to pounce up stairs is the prime example, you cant because as soon as you pounce you touch the next stair and it considers you as landed and your full pounce stops 1ft away. I would like to see a small delay of a quarter to a half second after you pounce during which your pounce will not stop due to touching the ground or other small ledge.

13 headbites are pretty cheesy, i mean they are so easy that they are the average rather than the exception, i think headbites should be harder to get on humans, you shouldnt be able to headbite a human from the ground as any alien, especially a dretch or dragoon.

14 I think the humans should get incentive to make a forward base, perhaps 20-30 special buildpoints that can only be used on structures OUTSIDE the range of the reactor. 24 points would allow for a medpad and 2 turrets at said forward base which seems good to me.

Well this is everything i can think of right now, discuss and criticize as you will, but please refrain from the comments about how tremulous is perfectly balanced and no changes are needed, we all know it isnt true im not sure who you guys are still trying to fool with that act.

 :cry:

Its so...perfect. I have absolutely nothing I would dare add to that.

Not exactly the approach I would take to fixing some of those problems I agree with you on, but it gets the job done.

[Ksempac]

OMG. I dont know you, so when you started with your "i m not a noob", i saw that you were on this forum since June and that this wasn t your first post, so i thought "ok maybe he is right"

But seeing all the crap after that, i can say you dont understand much about Trem...FF off because that only concern humans, multiple grenades, Lucy is only for dretches, etc...that's far too many stupid things in one single post to reply to it : i dont wanna waste my time saying things that are already everywhere on the forum.

[kevlarman]

i agree with a lot of what you say, but this:

1 First off, friendly fire, no, just no, anybody can play trem and know its clearly not meant for ff, as the balance theory seems to require multiple humans to bring down a single tyrant or other large alien, ff only hurts humans and causes them to camp even more than they otherwise would. maybe have ff for certain weapons like luci, flamer, and grenade but otherwise it should be disabled for normal weapons fire.

friendly fire hurts aliens much more than it hurts humans. it takes all of 5 games on a friendly fire server to learn to not hit your teammates more often than not with ranged weapons, but aliens can't attack the same human without risking serious damage to each other.

[Taiyo.uk]

1 First off, friendly fire, no, just no, anybody can play trem and know its clearly not meant for ff, as the balance theory seems to require multiple humans to bring down a single tyrant or other large alien, ff only hurts humans and causes them to camp even more than they otherwise would. maybe have ff for certain weapons like luci, flamer, and grenade but otherwise it should be disabled for normal weapons fire.

Not quite. Good players can bring down a tyrant with a BS+chaingun 1v1. Whether you're best suited to an FF or non-FF server depends on your skill level, playing style and personal preference.

2 Egg spamming, when a teams sole strategy is to build eggs all over the map while a select few dretches kill the occasional human in order to survive till stage3, knowing that the tyrant is the trump of anything the humans could hope to bring, something is wrong. when such a strategy is an effective one, something is very wrong. I would suggest making newly built eggs have a delay of 10-20 seconds before they can spawn any aliens, and make still building eggs more noticeable, as they are hard to see in darkness or with a suit.

Depends how good the human team is. If s2 (=helmet) humans loose against eggspammers then well... They had it coming.

Also, sometimes eggspamming is a perfectly valid tactic. When your base is destroyed and there are too many humans running around then a short period of eggspamming can allow the aliens to re-establish themselves. This is why it's battlesuits off and helmets on for the egghunt once the alien base has been destroyed.

3 Let a battlesuit carry multiple grenades

OBJECTION!
Just think about this for a while, and the effect this will have on the game.

4 Alien regen is very powerful, and makes it so the larger the map the more it favors aliens. On a large map a group of humans attacking toward alien base need pass thru a large amount of neutral territory, all an alien need do is jump into the fray and get one slash then run away. the alien can just sit in the next room healing waiting to attack again while the human must run all the way back to base to refill or risk continuing on at less than full status. I think this is the primary reason for the majority of human camping. regeneration also plays a role in making the tyrant the powerhouse that it is. my suggestion is to disable regen when the om is down, or slow regen outside a certain radius of an egg or the om

You must play on n00b-human servers. The idea is that the humans are base dependent and the aliens are not. This is a key distinction between the teams.

5 The tyrant is a monster and even in the hands of a noob at the very least it can soak damage for teammates, and the classic "oh 2 chainsuits or 2-3 (insert human class here) can kill a single tyrant" as if requiring 2-3 vs 1 is fair, and what about those games where there are 3 or 4 tyrants, humans are supposed to require 6-12 players to bring them down? It seems to me that a nerf for tyrant is clearly needed, but one that wont hurt them so much they lose their use, i propose that you change charge, as is the tyrant steers like a sports car, turning on a dime in mid charge, i think that the charge speed should be lost if you turn too far from the original direction you were facing when you started charging. I would say that about 45degrees or so from the original direction, enough that you can adjust to chase humans but not so much that you can zig zag around corners to escape. the other change is to the evos, i dont think a tyrant should get evo for kills of humans with less than a certain amount of value in their equipment, say 250-400, that way a tyrant cant just whore naked rifles all day for unlimited evo, he has to actually kill something challenging if he wants another tyrant.

You definitely play on n00b-human servers.

6 I think the damage of an exploding turret should be increased drastically to discourage placing the turrets in as small a space as possible. if one turret dies and explodes, it should do enough damage to kill any other turret that is very close to it.

The game is imbalanced in the aliens favour (in terms of games won / games lost) as it is. Just imagine a typical human base, one turrets gets sniped and explodes, then starts a chain-reaction and destroys the whole human base. Aliens will win almost every game. Turrets very often need to be tightly packed in order to build an effective base defense. Again, this suggests that you play on servers that attract very inexperienced human players by the dozen.

7 the flamethrower is a downright useless weapon, its kind of a joke, whos more noob? the flamer or the one that he kills? it would be much more useful if it had a bit more range, and the flames traveled thru the air somewhat faster so that you cant catch your own fire when you sprint, beyond that some kind of napalm effect where it sticks to surfaces and burns humans or aliens that pass through it might be neat but probably hard to balance.

Spec experienced players when they're using a flamer.

8 The Luci is just stupid, it kills bases and dretches and not much else, any decent alien can just sidestep the shot or a tyrant will charge straight into a luci knowing that even if it gets hit the first time it can kill the luci before it has time to charge a second fatal shot. I think that any alien that eats a direct hit from a luci but survives should be blinded for a half second or so, giving the human that shot him the chance to finish him off or run away.

Spec experienced players when they're using a luci.

9 I agree with the jetpack suggestion, that it should be a burst of height, rather than a treestand in the sky.

Yeah, could do. That'll make the jet-pack somewhat more.... jet-pack like. I've always thought the current one is a little strange.

10 I think that you should be prioritized in the spawn queue based on your kills and deaths.

So that the players who spent the first ten minutes building or joined late never spawn? Keep them first come, first served.

11 there should be a delay in spawning for feeders, every death should increase your spawn delay by 1 second. that way noobs that die a lot early wont be able to spawn as fast late game, but good players who conserve their deaths early can respawn faster late game when they need to.  

NO.

12 Nothing is worse than when you go to pounce as a dragoon and your pounce is stopped premature by something stupid like a small ledge you bumped into, trying to pounce up stairs is the prime example, you cant because as soon as you pounce you touch the next stair and it considers you as landed and your full pounce stops 1ft away. I would like to see a small delay of a quarter to a half second after you pounce during which your pounce will not stop due to touching the ground or other small ledge.

Spec experienced players when they're an advanced goon.

13 headbites are pretty cheesy, i mean they are so easy that they are the average rather than the exception, i think headbites should be harder to get on humans, you shouldnt be able to headbite a human from the ground as any alien, especially a dretch or dragoon.

The dretch ground-headbite needs to be addressed. Something the size of a goon could easily swipe a human head from the ground.

14 I think the humans should get incentive to make a forward base, perhaps 20-30 special buildpoints that can only be used on structures OUTSIDE the range of the reactor. 24 points would allow for a medpad and 2 turrets at said forward base which seems good to me.

REPEATERS
Forward bases are only useful on certain maps, while on others all buildpoints are best spent on the main base.

[Undeference]

10, 11:
So the guy going out trying to rack up a high kill count gets priority over the guy trying actually destroy the opponent's base? All the time, I see games where there are 2 or 3 "good" players on on team, just getting a bunch of kills, and the game doesn't end until one of the other players ends it.

Though I do think head shots are rather silly. I explained elsewhere how the head shot thing is unrealistic. Of course, if it were more realistic, it would probably have a certain threshold below which only a fraction of the damage is taken, and above which all shots render a player dead or unconscious.

Hmm... What if you subtract? For instance, x is some number, y is the amount of damage dealt, and z is the amount that is the amount of damage taken.
z=y-(x-y);
If x is 50 and y is over 50, the damage taken is more than the amount dealt. If it is below 50 it is less. If it is exactly 50, it is equal.
Instead of a dretch doing a 96 damage head shot, it would do 46 damage (still enough for a 2 hit kill, but perhaps making the medkit more useful). Instead of a dragoon doing a 160 damage head shot, it would do a 110 damage head shot.
Having a helmet would increase x.

It's a crazy idea that might just make a ton of people want to kill me

[|Nex|TrEmMa]

The thing is orc doesn't play with noob humans from when I've played him, it's just that not many humans are on up there on his level.
Oh and 135 lucy ammo +1 grenade > 90 lucy ammo + 2 grenades (damage wise at least)

[temple]

I disagree with everything you said but I'll be fair and explain it.

1.  Friendly fire is needed.  Otherwise, its a laser show for humans with no consequences.  Alternatively, its a chomp off with aliens with no consequences.  Without Friendly fire, Tremulous is a gang bang and promotes less skill and blind rushing.  

2.  Egg spam and Turret spam is go hand in hand.  If aliens can't drop eggs all over the map, alien defenses need to be buffed in damage and hitpoints to protect the eggs in the base.  If have tried to build on aliens, you would know that eggs can't be made without an Overmind and the Overmind can only be build on the ground.  It is also very big and is hard to hide.  If you have issues with egg spam, you have to issues with navigating the map and finding the BIG ASS Overmind in actuality. Kill the Overmind and egg spam ends.  

3.  If a battlesuit could carry more grenades, then destroying the alien base would be basically 1. Get battlesuit, 2. Get grenades, 3. run into Alien base.  That's would suck for aliens.  Where is the skill in that?  Getting a battlesuit and Lucifer cannon is basically the same thing anyway.  Use that.

4.  Alien regen and map size have nothing to do with each other.  Alien regen is basically a whine or a indirect complaint about ZOMG TYRANTS's regen.  Alien's fight from the field, humans fight from their base, big deal.  I think people would be happier playing human vs human.  

5. Tyrants are powerful, they should be.  Anything less than S3 weapons should have a hard time killing Tyrants, just like any alien less than S3 has a hard time killing Battlesuits.  And if tyrants move too fast, then humans move WAY too fast.  In fact, humans with open ground are intrinsicially harder to kill, regardless of what alien you play.  It doesn't take 2 humans to kill a tyrant but most humans can't manage it without backup.  That's not a balance issue, its a skill issue.  Most cases, I scare away more tyrants than I kill.  Either way, I survive.

6. Builders shouldn't have to replace 2 or 3 structures just because 1 blows up.  That's more a pain in the ass change than a balance change.

7. The Flamethrower is very powerful and very balanced.  I'm fine with it having drawbacks because it works well when used correctly.  Tremulous wouldn't be fun or skill based if everything was easy to use.  This isn't Contra.  Basically, you are asking to remove the one thing that keeps the flamethrower balanced....and you previously said 'no Friendly Fire'.  Damn, these 2 suggestions are asking for less skill and more 'I bought a flamethrower...I win'.

8. The Lucifer is best used 'indirectly' meaning you can't snipe with it.  I mean, what more do you want from it?  At 200 damage, anything more would be an 'I win' weapon.  There is a way to kill any alien with a luci but it doesn't have to be simple.  

9.  The Jet pack as it works now, it is an aerial platform.  You can get in the sky and snipe, suppress, or evade.  I don't think you appriecate it. The only drawback is its speed but don't disregard how useful it is once you get up in the air.  I think you want superman flight but that would overcomplicate the jetpack and make it too much of a toy instead of a tool.  Its bad enough that people play around with jetpacks now and don't bother acutally fighting, improving it would basically 'Aliens vs the guys that aren't playing with jetpacks.'

10. Petty suggestion aka 'I want to be line leader!'. If you have a long queue, you need more spawns.  What does kill count have to do with building more spawns?

11.  The delay in spawning would backfire so hard for everyone.  If your base is getting destroyed, that means no one will be able to spawn in time to defend it.  It would have a far worst effect on defense than it would on feeders.  Throw that idea away.

12. You are just asking for pounce to have a longer range.  Aim higher next time.  I swear that's the stupidest suggestion I've ever heard.  That's like say 'Humans need to be shorter to hit dretches.'

13. No headbites from the ground.  Ok, done deal.  But they aren't cheesy, Battlesuit and Chaingun is chessy.  Pulse spam is cheesy. No Friendly Fire is chessy.  Standing on Turrets is cheesy.  Headbites are half of the challenge to playing aliens.

14.  Humans don't need forward bases.  Forward bases means 'let the Turrets do the fighting."  Human need LESS incentative to stay in bases period.  I like the idea of forward bases in general but no, humans don't need them at all.  Humans need to be able to shoot.  If Turrets were as accurate as most human players, you wouldn't want them.

[Stof]

Turrets

You use Turrets instead of turrets, therefore I'm obliged to disregard anything else you say

But since you said so much, I have to add a few remarks anyway.
2. In the current version, aliens do NOT need a working OM to build more eggs. In fact, aliens can build more eggs even if they have been OM less for a few minutes. I pray that egg hunts will be massively easier for humans once that bugfix makes it into the game.
4. You have to compare alien regen and infinite ammo vs. humans with limited health and ammo and a 2 minute walk from the human base to the alien base. In that situation, I would really like for you to say that it doesn't favor aliens. Worse of all I've ever seen was a game on atcsz where the aliens had established their base in the underground bunker, and since there is a single LONG corridor to reach the alien base ( well, in fact there are two of them ), I just couldn't keep enouth health and ammo to reach the damn alien base because of those stupid dretches on the way! And that was using a luci and battery pack.
5. Tyrants are too powerful nuff said. I'd take weaker turrets any time if it meant weaker Tyrants.
13. Ground headbites suck. You cannot use sound clues anymore against dretches at stage one and so it favors even more camping from the human side. Ground headbites are cheesy against stage 1 humans, and also a little against stage 2 humans. Battlesuit+chaingun requires stage 3 and is less cheesy than Tyrant is IMHO. Also, headbites might be half the challenge to playing aliens, ground headbites aren't. It isn't even a challenge.

[temple]

Turrets

You use Turrets instead of turrets, therefore I'm obliged to disregard anything else you say

But since you said so much, I have to add a few remarks anyway.
2. In the current version, aliens do NOT need a working OM to build more eggs. In fact, aliens can build more eggs even if they have been OM less for a few minutes. I pray that egg hunts will be massively easier for humans once that bugfix makes it into the game.
4. You have to compare alien regen and infinite ammo vs. humans with limited health and ammo and a 2 minute walk from the human base to the alien base. In that situation, I would really like for you to say that it doesn't favor aliens. Worse of all I've ever seen was a game on atcsz where the aliens had established their base in the underground bunker, and since there is a single LONG corridor to reach the alien base ( well, in fact there are two of them ), I just couldn't keep enouth health and ammo to reach the damn alien base because of those stupid dretches on the way! And that was using a luci and battery pack.
5. Tyrants are too powerful nuff said. I'd take weaker turrets any time if it meant weaker Tyrants.
13. Ground headbites suck. You cannot use sound clues anymore against dretches at stage one and so it favors even more camping from the human side. Ground headbites are cheesy against stage 1 humans, and also a little against stage 2 humans. Battlesuit+chaingun requires stage 3 and is less cheesy than Tyrant is IMHO. Also, headbites might be half the challenge to playing aliens, ground headbites aren't. It isn't even a challenge.

Thats completely wrong.  Eggs are the only structure that can function without the OM but the OM is required for the construction of any alien structure.  Eggs are also the only structure than can be built without creep (besides the OM).  

There can only be one Overmind and it must be alive before any other structures can be built.

Maybe you play on some messed up servers but I know for a fact (because I've had to explain it to noobs in game while I waited for an OM to build) that you can't built anything until you have a working OM.  

If you remove alien regeneration, you remove a lot of the flavor and coolness of an Alien vs Human game.  In fact, I find it remarkable to have a game that simulates the actual scenario of having aliens roaming a map without scripting. What would you replace alien regenerate with?  Stronger alien bases?  More hitpoints for aliens?  LOL, dare I say alien armor and medikits?   Like I say, people want Human versus Human.   I like the asymetric balance of the game.  It makes it unique.  Otherwise, we might as well play Counterstrike.  

Conversely, if humans want more ammo and more regen, they have to have weaker bases.  The whole point of base defense is to protect what's inside.  Aliens only have 2 structures they need in a base, eggs and the overmind.  Humans have medistations, telenodes, armories, and the reactor.  Therefore humans need better defenses.  But an improvement in one direction requires a decrease in another.  Be happy with what you have.  

Weaker turrets...wow.  Okay, I fully support weaker turrets.  It would be a human bloodbath and a lot more games would end before SD.

I agree ground head bites should be changed. I hope it is changed without nerfing dretches' range or anything like that.  They just have to make humans taller and it shouldn't be possible.

As for tyrants.  They are the size of houses and all aliens are affected by lag.  Just take a human and run cirlces around a tyrant.  You don't even have to aim.  I guarantee you will kill them more than they kill you.  In a perfect lagless game, I would say tyrants might be too strong.  But with lag, its take 400 hitpoints and 35 damage swipes to kill a battlesuit.  Also, tyrants need faster regen because 400 hitpoints takes a while to get back up to full.  If you nerf tyrant regen, then they need all the speed they have (which people have complained about) or they need even more damage.  Take your pick.

[|Nex|TrEmMa]

Actually it is well-known that:
1) Eggs can be built during the period in time in which
a) the OM is dead
b) the new OM cannot be rebuilt yet
2) Eggs can be built (and tubes will work) at the point in time in which a building OM would have finished if it were destroyed while being created, granted that a new OM has not yet been built.
(this is what I've determined, I may be off on some of the specifics, but basically you can build without an OM for a period of time).

If one were to build a non-OM structure during this period, their build timer is set to the OM build timer (instead of a normal timer after building an egg).

[Juno]

i cba to read through all this



where is henners dammit




are you sure youve even played tremulous?


bsuit with multiple nades, are you clinically insane?


turrets tking other turrets, meaning spread out bases, that maras just shred to pieces?  and theres no alien equivalent?


good players spawning first? i dont want certain players jumping the spawn que just becauses they are better .how the fuck are people supposed to get better if they have to spend 30 out 0f 60 mins waiting to spawn





seriously no offence, but people need to stop making ridiculous suggestions


humans are very strong. have you never played with decent players?

try playing with, any of Flynn, flocke, puma, isjse merc, , JMST2000, d0t, pong, horrible monster, napkin,CC Gnud,rasz and quite a few other players ive missed out.


humans win a hell of a lot more than you may think. lucis are dam powerful. - you want to nerf tyrants - and you say lucis are stupid

yet a luci will tear a base apart in seconds, and 2 hits kills a tyrants, and one hit kills anything below it

flamer i agree with you, but i dont want it removed - easy creds


goon pounce is ok, although really mucked up on some servers

dretch headbites are a feature of the game - you have no control where you are going when you jump , and your an easy target. strafing along the ground looking up takes a bit of skill


where the hell is lava when you need him *quotes* " anyone that cant kill a dretch at thier feet needs some serious aiming practice"

"dont nerf trem for the sake of the retarded minority"

[Undeference]

After buildings are destroyed, they continue to exist for a certain amount of time. Before SVN revision 828, only whether there was an overmind was checked. As of r828, whether the overmind is alive or not is also checked.

This means if you run a server, get at least revision 828 to prevent serious cheating (though I recommend at least 840 to avoid a couple really nasty bugs).

[Stof]

Thats completely wrong.  Eggs are the only structure that can function without the OM but the OM is required for the construction of any alien structure.  Eggs are also the only structure than can be built without creep (besides the OM).

That's the infamous OM bug. You can still build eggs, even if the OM has been recently killed, and you can still build eggs even if the OM was killed before completion provided you wait the normal completion timer to expire. This is a bug which makes egg hunts harder than they should. The manual only talks about the expected behaviour.

If you remove alien regeneration, you remove a lot of the flavor and coolness of an Alien vs Human game.  In fact, I find it remarkable to have a game that simulates the actual scenario of having aliens roaming a map without scripting. What would you replace alien regenerate with?  Stronger alien bases?  More hitpoints for aliens?  LOL, dare I say alien armor and medikits?   Like I say, people want Human versus Human.   I like the asymetric balance of the game.  It makes it unique.  Otherwise, we might as well play Counterstrike.

I'm not in favor of removing the alien regeneraition. I just want people to realise that that feature along with the infinite ammo are what makes the aliens own the bigger maps.

And aliens can also own the smaller maps when the human base has too few possible exits. Different maps and different features that all point to alien advantage on public servers.

Conversely, if humans want more ammo and more regen, they have to have weaker bases.  The whole point of base defense is to protect what's inside.  Aliens only have 2 structures they need in a base, eggs and the overmind.  Humans have medistations, telenodes, armories, and the reactor.  Therefore humans need better defenses.  But an improvement in one direction requires a decrease in another.  Be happy with what you have.

Then admit that human camping is bound to remain forever in that situation.

Weaker turrets...wow.  Okay, I fully support weaker turrets.  It would be a human bloodbath and a lot more games would end before SD.

I said weaker turrets in exchange for weaker aliens. This won't weaken as much the human defenses as you think. But this is just a posible idea and I can't say if it'll really help.

As for tyrants.  They are the size of houses and all aliens are affected by lag.  Just take a human and run cirlces around a tyrant.  You don't even have to aim.  I guarantee you will kill them more than they kill you.

You should really go play on servers with better alien players. I'm not a very good alien player ( well, I can defend myself well enouth ) and as much as I fear chaingun users, I still can own them more often than they own me with a Dragoon ( or with a Tyrant if they are using a battlesuit )

In a perfect lagless game, I would say tyrants might be too strong.  But with lag, its take 400 hitpoints and 35 damage swipes to kill a battlesuit.  Also, tyrants need faster regen because 400 hitpoints takes a while to get back up to full.  If you nerf tyrant regen, then they need all the speed they have (which people have complained about) or they need even more damage.  Take your pick.

Less regen for Tyrants. They only need at most 30 seconds of regen to get back in full health. Don't you dare say that Tyrant regen is weak. 14 HP/s is a lot.

[techhead]

1. Its already optional, but strongly suggested.
2. Newly built eggs should have a small delay, but 5 seconds will do.
3. Nope. If you want your extra grenades that much, build a forward armory.
4. Make smaller maps, and slow down regeneration when too far from creep.
5. Stop feeding the tyrant!!!!
6. Yes, but not as much as you suggest.
7. Flame-throwers hurt man, ever play as alien?
8. Lucifer cannons hurt man, ever play as alien?
9. Jet-pack should have a steeper learning curve, and with more room for finesse.
10. Nope.
11. Nope.
12. Dragoon pounce is fine.
13. Only dretch needs to be tweaked.
14. Stupid human can't save his build-points. Although you should use what you get, I think that you should start with 150 as default, not 100.

[Kolaris]

So tell me, fair tremulous pro-alien forum goers, what servers do you play on that you don't find these 'n00b-humans'?

[doomagent13]

In my opinion, the reason the aliens get most of the experienced players is because they dont want to wait for an opening on humans. If everyone joining a team was auto auto-selected, the game would probably be about evenly balanced. Unless there is a noob alien team, or some lucky human who painsaws the om and eggs, the humans NEED to work as a team to defeat the aliens--meaning you DONT go 1v1 with a tyrant, you make it 2 or 3 v 1. The other thing is you need not everyone to get luci--its almost impossible to hit a fleeing alien with one, unless its coming towards you. IF you manage to stage an attack on the alien base, you need to think about each weapons special characteristics--flamer can be best for taking spawns down if there arent defenses as it will fry most if not all spawning aliens; psaw is best for taking down om, but I wouldnt go after a spawn or defenses without support; pulse rifle is generally the best alien base killer, but its bad against actual aliens because of the ease with which it can be dodged.

Support for my opinion: The fact that many good players end up on aliens. Also, most of the time I use auto-select because I dont really care what team I use, and I dont feel like waiting for an opening on a specific team. Most of the time I end up playing aliens.

I posted this in another thread, thought it might help.
http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2459
take a look at it.
dont be fooled by the name--its topic changed to balance

[AllmanBros]

Appearently these people think you're 'inexperienced' Orc, and tell you to go on to 'more skilled servers.'


 :eek:

Anyways, I agree with your suggestions somewhat. I don't like the idea of accidentially killing a turret on a FF structure server, and having the entire base go down. I also don't like the multiple grenade. 310 damage a grenade, with more than one, will easily take down tyrants, and anything around it.  :O

FF is kind of a hassle, (who actually aims, anyways?) but is probably needed, for some weird reason.

[temple]

That's the infamous OM bug. You can still build eggs, even if the OM has been recently killed, and you can still build eggs even if the OM was killed before completion provided you wait the normal completion timer to expire. This is a bug which makes egg hunts harder than they should. The manual only talks about the expected behaviour.

Noted.

I'm not in favor of removing the alien regeneraition. I just want people to realise that that feature along with the infinite ammo are what makes the aliens own the bigger maps.
....
And aliens can also own the smaller maps when the human base has too few possible exits. Different maps and different features that all point to alien advantage on public servers.

I don't think any type of map favors the one side or the other.  There are pros and cons to each.  Yes it is an advantage, humans have advantages too.  I could spell it out. I think regeneration is one of those 'OOHH We can't do that' knee jerk complaints about aliens.  

Then admit that human camping is bound to remain forever in that situation.  

Give me a situation where humans won't camp.

I said weaker turrets in exchange for weaker aliens. This won't weaken as much the human defenses as you think. But this is just a posible idea and I can't say if it'll really help.

You said weaker turrets for weaker tyrants. Outside of tyrants, how much weaker can aliens get?

You should really go play on servers with better alien players. I'm not a very good alien player ( well, I can defend myself well enouth ) and as much as I fear chaingun users, I still can own them more often than they own me with a Dragoon ( or with a Tyrant if they are using a battlesuit )

Everything is situational.  I can't explain lag, you just have to experience it.  When you are playing, swiping at air, every time to turn the human is always one step past you, and all the while shooting.... you will understand.

Less regen for Tyrants. They only need at most 30 seconds of regen to get back in full health. Don't you dare say that Tyrant regen is weak. 14 HP/s is a lot.

Let me explain the reality of playing a Tyrant.  You attack a base, everything takes a shot at you (because they are so big).  If you manage to get a turret or telsa, you will be around 250 heath if the bases as multiple defenses or defenders.  With that less health, you are basically a bigger dragoon health wise, less maneuverability, and more damage.  Tyrants are very weak at this point.

Tyrants, doing more than farming kills, are counterable. 1Vs1, tyrants are the most powerful creatures.  But without their regeneration, they would be as easy to kill as dragoons when attacking bases.

[cephas]

Appearently these people think you're 'inexperienced' Orc, and tell you to go on to 'more skilled servers.'


 :eek:

I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one bursting out laughing when people were implying that a member of {SGA} was a n00b.  Also, BeerGarden and wherever else Orc plays are probably some of the better servers around. (Not to promote my home servers )

I agree with some of Orc's suggestions.

[Orc]

I like how people I have never even met in a game call me a noob. All of you who say that tyrant is fine are incorrect, I guarantee my lone tyrant can kill your lone human 90% of the time, especially if you have the lucifer or flamer that you guys suggest is so good. sure luci does a ton of damage, but only if the alien is stupid enough to let it hit him, they can easily outrun it or side step it and only a fool dies to flamer since you can slash the human at near the same range the flames reach with a goon or tyrant and you can easily escape it with anything less. You say flamer is good against dretches, I say a dretch that attacks a flamer is an idiot.

[Stof]

I don't think any type of map favors the one side or the other.  There are pros and cons to each.  Yes it is an advantage, humans have advantages too.  I could spell it out. I think regeneration is one of those 'OOHH We can't do that' knee jerk complaints about aliens.

Except maps with awesome human base location against crappy alien base or a map composed exclusively of long corridors and big rooms which is automaticaly dismissed as "crappy" by players, I don't see much advantages for humans.

Give me a situation where humans won't camp.

Give me money, a short path to the alien base not crawling with aliens on the way and a base strong enouth so that it'll still be here when I'm back and I won't camp.

Everything is situational.  I can't explain lag, you just have to experience it.  When you are playing, swiping at air, every time to turn the human is always one step past you, and all the while shooting.... you will understand.

I know what is lag. I also know that you can counter it efficiently as long as your ping is constant and you don't have more than 100. And I say again : go play better aliens and tell me you even stand a chance against a Tyrant on a 1v1 without massive environment help. Even a small chance.

Let me explain the reality of playing a Tyrant.  You attack a base, everything takes a shot at you (because they are so big).  If you manage to get a turret or telsa, you will be around 250 heath if the bases as multiple defenses or defenders.  With that less health, you are basically a bigger dragoon health wise, less maneuverability, and more damage.  Tyrants are very weak at this point.

12 seconds! They are weak for 12 seconds before they are back to 400 health! ( 10 seconds of regen and 2 seconds waiting for regen start )

Yeah, great weakness they have.

[doomagent13]

in my opinion, the game is mostly fine.  Sure, tyrants have alot of health and can give a lot of damage, but if you have a jetpack, its easy to get out of their range (depending on the ceiling height)--you just go up.  Ground headbites from dretches are annoying, but dont need to be removed.  I am not denying that aliens win most games, but if teams were randomly chosen, it would be a lot more even.  The main reason people might complain about tyrants is that they can run in, kill a turret, run out, and still live.  If more people chased a tyrant further they could kill it.  The simple fact is that humans need teamwork to win, particularly in egg hunts and when going after bigger aliens.  It might make it more balanced if you make the aliens need to work together, but if you made it so humans could meet aliens 1v1, think what happens when its 2 or 3 v 1.

[0z]

I like how people I have never even met in a game call me a noob. All of you who say that tyrant is fine are incorrect, I guarantee my lone tyrant can kill your lone human 90% of the time

Can dretch, basi or goon simply win a b-suit with pulse or shotty? No. There's your answer, tyrant isn't supposed to be killed in usual 1v1.
If one wears a b-suit and chain, he is large target and must dance well. Pulse+batt.back+armor means: small hitbox, much damage -> maybe 50% of tyrants killed in 1v1 if you can dodge.

[Stof]

Can dretch, basi or goon simply win a b-suit with pulse or shotty? No. There's your answer, tyrant isn't supposed to be killed in usual 1v1.
If one wears a b-suit and chain, he is large target and must dance well. Pulse+batt.back+armor means: small hitbox, much damage -> maybe 50% of tyrants killed in 1v1 if you can dodge.

Mmm, you should go learn better the game before making comments Battlesuit has the exact same hitbox as normal human. The only difference is that you cannot crouch.

And going close combat after Tyrants without using the battlesuit is pure suicide.

[temple]

I like how people I have never even met in a game call me a noob. All of you who say that tyrant is fine are incorrect, I guarantee my lone tyrant can kill your lone human 90% of the time, especially if you have the lucifer or flamer that you guys suggest is so good. sure luci does a ton of damage, but only if the alien is stupid enough to let it hit him, they can easily outrun it or side step it and only a fool dies to flamer since you can slash the human at near the same range the flames reach with a goon or tyrant and you can easily escape it with anything less. You say flamer is good against dretches, I say a dretch that attacks a flamer is an idiot.

I don't think anyone is calling you a noob but just because you are good, doesn't mean you make good suggestions.

As for 'humans can't kill Tyrants 1vs1...I can kill a Tyrant 1vs1.  Not all the time but yeah, its possible.  However, I don't hear anything about surpression from Humans.  Supression is just as good as a kill in most cases.  All I hear is that humans can't solo tyrants 100% of the time.  I really think people are willfully limiting the argument.

Personally, I have no sympathy or even care about balancing tyrants 1vs1 because that would ruin the game for aliens.  In every game I've played where melee goes against range players, the ranged players always scream bloody murder over the melee players.  'OMG when they get close to me, they fuck me up!"  That's the whole point.  Explain to me the point of tyrants if they don't have the health or regen?  They would be big ass dragoons with less speed.

Personally, I think its the fact that battlesuits don't have radar and nearly everyone goes for a Battlesuit at S3 that causes humans to not be able to deal with tyrants.  In fact, I've foguht past 2-3 tyrants on many occassions by using a luci to supress them and went straight to the alien base.  They aren't going to suicide into me and I'm prepared to dance with them and finish them off if they eat a blast to get close to me.  Taking 1 out is enough credits to come right back.

[Neo]

Yeah, humans aren't supposed to operate as lone ranger types, they're supposed to work as a team to get things done.

If you try to nerf aliens and power up humans you're just gonna ruin the dynamics of the game.

[0z]

Mmm, you should go learn better the game before making comments :) Battlesuit has the exact same hitbox as normal human. The only difference is that you cannot crouch.

And going close combat after Tyrants without using the battlesuit is pure suicide.

Then why is the b-suit much larger than normal human? Anyway, who says that you need to go into slash range to kill tyrant, hmm? More ammo+radar > a bit less damage, imho.

There's not that much new things for me in the game anymore, so I'm learning to metaplay by knowing the dps of all weapons, armor protection values etc. So if you are right about the b-suit I start using it in crowded places as well.

btw does anyone know if it's not possible to get headshot to crouched human? I've noticed that dretches get only torso hits to me when I'm crouching...