Are Tesla still needed?

[Stof]

I'm asking that question because for quite some times, nearly all of the games I've played were humans reach stage 3, nobody would bother to build a single Tesla. We even got rid of the guys saying "noob! Teslas are sooo much better".

Teslas haven't completly disapeared, but you have to admit that once you've correctly covered a chokepoint leading to the human base with turrets, the advantage that Tesla do not have to aim is rather moot, and the superior firepower of the turrets combined with their reduced cost ( which allows you to build even more and gives us even more firepower! ) sure doesn't make for a compeling reason to switch to Tesla.

So, let's sum it up :
Pro turrets :
- They do more damage
- They are cheaper and so you can build more
- They are smaller and harder to hit
- They take the same amount of Adv Dragoon barbs to kill than Tesla, despite having as less HP than a Tesla
- They do not need a DC to work thus removing the "critical building to have around" to only the armory.
- In front of a door, they do not need to turn around
- Bigger firing range
- They do NOT need a DC to work or to build

Pro Tesla :
- They have more HP : they need 3 Tyrant hits to go down and turrets get killed in only 2
- They do not need to aim
- Bigger hitbox means that dragoons and mara will have a harder time jumping above them
- They have huge knockback effect ( well, rather useless Pro I say )
- Tesla are much better at killing dretch and basilisks ( another useless Pro )

In essence, the main point is : can you place the turrets so that they do never need to turn. If yes, do not build Tesla, if no then maybe ( maybe ! ) you should consider using them.

Saying all that, I guess we might need to boost the Tesla somehow. Maybe making them a 8 BP structure or boosting their damage.

[raf]

whenever im playing as alien and i see humans building teslas im like
"yeah ! game will be over in  2-3 mins!" - usually im right...
so i definitely agree that right now teslas are pretty much useless

teslas (as well as the dc) could eg use an hp boost so that an adv goon can't take em down _that_ easily

[Lava Croft]

Humans that build only Teslas are dumb. Humans that build only Turrets are also dumb. Victory comes through balancing these two structures.

[raf]

if you want to mix turrets + teslas you are giving away an enormous amount of firepower
lava - do you have any screens of good human bases with a mixed defense?
or could you point out where a mixed setup beats the "turrets only" setup?

[Undeference]

Often times, teslas are just like barricades.

[temple]

Teslas are all about positioning.  I use the fact that they shoot through walls.    

If you want to defend an open or long area, Turrets.  If you want to defend corners or create a chokepoint, telsas.  

The most important thing with Telsas is where you put the DC more than anything.

Telsa are far more deadly than turrets.  I know this from playing aliens.

[PHREAK]

Tesla usefulness heavily depends on the map and location of base.
I tend to put a tesla close to reac to prevent the mara jump over on top of reac.
If the location is such that the reac is safe or we need more firepower because the base isn't next to a choke point, then I opt for turrets only.
When playing on servers with a massive amount of BP's then building teslas is very useful but regular servers generally don't benefit from them.

[Stof]

Teslas are all about positioning.  I use the fact that they shoot through walls.    

If you want to defend an open or long area, Turrets.  If you want to defend corners or create a chokepoint, telsas.  

The most important thing with Telsas is where you put the DC more than anything.

Telsa are far more deadly than turrets.  I know this from playing aliens.

I don't believe Tesla fire through walls. I think this is an illusion caused by the lag in the visual effect of the tesla lightning and the knockback effect.

Except for UTCS, I have yet to see a base that wouldn't be better defended by turrets than by teslas or couldn't be moved a little for the same effect.

[Lava Croft]

or could you point out where a mixed setup beats the "turrets only" setup?

Use Turrets as the first line of defense, Teslas are to be positioned a litte more backwards, their firing range is a bit larger, if i'm not mistaken.

[Taiyo.uk]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10974774@N00/302632039/

[Stof]

or could you point out where a mixed setup beats the "turrets only" setup?

Use Turrets as the first line of defense, Teslas are to be positioned a litte more backwards, their firing range is a bit larger, if i'm not mistaken.

Well, their firing range is shorter as I've said in the Pro turrets arguments.

Edit : yep, here it is :

Code: [Select]

#define MGTURRET_RANGE              300.0f
#define TESLAGEN_RANGE              250

[DASPRiD]

A tesla near the reactor is always usefull against basis and marauders. Rest of defense should be turrets, maybe another tesla near the armory.

[Stof]

A tesla near the reactor is always usefull against basis and marauders. Rest of defense should be turrets, maybe another tesla near the armory.

Cannot you do the same with 2 turrets near the reactor instead?

[Lava Croft]

2 Turrets is 16bp, 1 Tesla is 10bp. Teslas deliver more damage, and more importantly, thanks to Norfenstein, a bloody annoying knockback that keeps any Marauders out.

[Stof]

2 Turrets is 16bp, 1 Tesla is 10bp. Teslas deliver more damage, and more importantly, thanks to Norfenstein, a bloody annoying knockback that keeps any Marauders out.

You know, you could at least try to read what was written : Teslas do LESS damage than turrets and I've said it. Teslas do 36 DPS and Turrets do 40 DPS ( that's damage per second it you want to know )

And 1 Tesla might be 10bp, but you still need the DC for that so it is between 2 Turrets at 16bp and 1 Tesla + 1 DC at 18bp now.

[DASPRiD]

A tesla near the reactor is always usefull against basis and marauders. Rest of defense should be turrets, maybe another tesla near the armory.

Cannot you do the same with 2 turrets near the reactor instead?

No, because the turrets are easier to destroy by marauder and teslas pull those nasty aliens away.

[Stof]

No, because the turrets are easier to destroy by marauder and teslas pull those nasty aliens away.

Well, 2 turrets aren't easy to kill with a basilisk or a marauder either, and if the base is properly built, killing them would require you to get in range of the rest of the turrets defending the base which would be probably impossible to do alone.

[next_ghost]

Turrets without DC are inefficient (DC increases turning speed, if 3 aliens jump into your base, all turrets will target only one of them and those which can't aim at it won't shoot). And I died a few times because of teslas when turrets wouldn't be able to stop me.

Anyway, ussual base with only turrets costs 94bp. There's no reason to use all 100bp by 3 cleverly placed teslas.

[Stof]

Turrets without DC are inefficient (DC increases turning speed, if 3 aliens jump into your base, all turrets will target only one of them and those which can't aim at it won't shoot). And I died a few times because of teslas when turrets wouldn't be able to stop me.

Anyway, ussual base with only turrets costs 94bp. There's no reason to use all 100bp by 3 cleverly placed teslas.

Turning rate bonus is minor in itself : turrets take 0.9 seconds to make half a turn without, and 0.7 seconds with the DC. And I strongly doubt the turrets work as you describe them without a DC. Never in the game have I seen a situation where a turret wasn't firing on some alien in rage because another alien was also in range but couldn't be fired at. And then, I do think focusing fire on a single alien is much much better than spreading the damage which would be a reason not to build a DC in my opinion

Edit : checked the source, and yes, I see no reasons to believe that turrets without DC will not fire when there is a valid target in range.

[janev]

Well one use for teslas is to prevent people turning turrets/jumping over defences.

For example on atcs if you have a turrets only defence 1 marauder can jump over the turrets and give friendly tyrants/goons the time for turrets to turn+ kill marauder to swipe at turrets.

[temple]

or could you point out where a mixed setup beats the "turrets only" setup?

Use Turrets as the first line of defense, Teslas are to be positioned a litte more backwards, their firing range is a bit larger, if i'm not mistaken.

That's the idea too, turrets soften them up and teslas finish them.

I don't believe Tesla fire through walls. I think this is an illusion caused by the lag in the visual effect of the tesla lightning and the knockback effect.

Telsa's go through walls or doors.  Put it on a corner and it will zap before an alien can get around it.  I know this from playing aliens.

[raf]

For example on atcs if you have a turrets only defence 1 marauder can jump over the turrets and give friendly tyrants/goons the time for turrets to turn+ kill marauder to swipe at turrets.

that won't work on a proper base because theres no point _behind_ the line of defense where a mara can get more than a few turrets to focus on him
just a waste of evos - thats it

[janev]

For example on atcs if you have a turrets only defence 1 marauder can jump over the turrets and give friendly tyrants/goons the time for turrets to turn+ kill marauder to swipe at turrets.

that won't work on a proper base because theres no point _behind_ the line of defense where a mara can get more than a few turrets to focus on him
just a waste of evos - thats it

Consider that the most common base built on atcs is a line of turrets infront of the reactor.... if you get behind it (almost all)the turrets do turn. the example was for acts...

on other maps just turning the few important turrets(closest ones) so tyrants can get in and get out alive(less damaged) can be helpful for the team... 2 evo marauders are after all less painful for the team to lose then 5 evo tyrants...

It is a team strategy for possibly breaking stalemates that you probably wouldn't use in public games, well not without teammates you think would be worth the sacrifice.

[Stof]

I don't believe Tesla fire through walls. I think this is an illusion caused by the lag in the visual effect of the tesla lightning and the knockback effect.

Telsa's go through walls or doors.  Put it on a corner and it will zap before an alien can get around it.  I know this from playing aliens.

Ok, judging from the code, Tesla fire at targets through walls, but do not hit them. But I might be misreading the results of the trap_Trace function so maybe they do hit targets through walls. Still, I'm certain they cannot fire through friendly targets.

As for the Tesla firing range, I guess there is what might be considered a bug which will allow Tesla to fire at targets farther away than 250 when Turrets fire at targets up to 300 units away.

Consider that the most common base built on atcs is a line of turrets infront of the reactor.... if you get behind it (almost all)the turrets do turn. the example was for acts...

on other maps just turning the few important turrets(closest ones) so tyrants can get in and get out alive(less damaged) can be helpful for the team... 2 evo marauders are after all less painful for the team to lose then 5 evo tyrants...

It is a team strategy for possibly breaking stalemates that you probably wouldn't use in public games, well not without teammates you think would be worth the sacrifice.

I doubt it'll work that well on ATCS since a Mara gets toasted in half a second by the turrets defending the base. I doubt he'll even have the time to jump above them Also, any human base with a Tyrant around has to have a some humans guarding it nearby thus the Mara has both to pass the turrets and not get blasted in the operation. Going for that tactic if a very risky gambit.

[raf]

Consider that the most common base built on atcs is a line of turrets infront of the reactor.... if you get behind it (almost all)the turrets do turn. the example was for acts...

I was talkin 'bout atcs, also.
I even gave it a try because i didn't want to talk bullshit ;-)
but it depends on the exact placement of the turrets - i agree that other people might be building the "default atcs base" in a slightly different way, so that this might work out.

[Lava Croft]

We can talk code for many more days, but the only thing that counts is experience, and from my experience (which of course is rather limited), I can only say that a base with either only Turrets or only Teslas is a base that will lose. As with any strategy game, it's mixing up different kinds of units that will make you win.
Also, like I stated before, Teslas have an annoying knockback, that almost always prevents my Marauder from reaching the tender top of the Reactor, while turrets do very little to prevent it, they only hurt me for a little bit, sometimes a bit more.
So, be smart, and always mix up your buildings and always build that Defense Computer.

[Stof]

"Always ..." rules are always bad

Well, if enouth people like the Teslas as they are now, I guess they can stay as they are. It won't convince me to build more though, I just love too much the 9 Turret and 1 Telenode setup when I think I can pull it of without risk

[raf]

me 2 :-)

[Lava Croft]

Everybody knows the 1 Telenode setup is prone to totally screwing you over:D
The great thing of Tremulous is that you are never confined to one solution, so I have to take back a bit of my words, touche. Don't we all like Tremulous for the fact that you have freedom of choice as to how overcome a certain obstacle? I would never part with my Teslas, I am too used to their lovely humming...

[Stof]

Although, I must say that source diving showed shocking behaviours on the part of teslas : they select the first entity in range that matches their criteria ( criteria : a live alien that can recieve damage ) and they attack it. They only check LOS when they attack the target so if you can place a high priority dretch behind a wall/building/human in range of the tesla, the tesla will NOT fire at any other lower priority target that gets in range and has clear LOS to the tesla.

Now, I just need to find how I can create a high priority dretch. It has to do with the "find all entities in a box" function.