Author Topic: Bugs (Read 64239 times)

Timbo · « **on:** May 15, 2004, 01:50:08 am »

Do not report bugs via the forum, use the bug tracker.
Do not report bugs via email, use the bug tracker.
Do not report bugs via private messages, use the bug tracker.
Use the bug tracker.
Do not submit several bugs under one entry, submit several independent bugs.
Use the bug tracker.
Check the bug tracker for existing bugs before submitting.

SomeNewb · « **Reply #1 on:** September 24, 2005, 12:43:49 am »

Should map bugs be reported in the bug tracker or here or somewhere else?

Timbo · « **Reply #2 on:** September 24, 2005, 02:33:59 am »

Yeah, it's a good a place as any...

Norfenstein · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2006, 06:10:34 am »

I've said this elsewhere, but if anyone doesn't want to make a bugzilla account they can private message me on this forum with the steps to reproduce the bug they've found. You should search the bug list first to see if it's already been posted though.

David · « **Reply #4 on:** July 17, 2007, 05:36:19 pm »

Quote from: "Timbo"

Use the bug tracker.

Nux · « **Reply #5 on:** July 17, 2007, 06:19:41 pm »

Quote from: "David"

Quote from: "Timbo"
Use the bug tracker.

I find that thing awkward (also my browser keeps telling my it hasn't got a legitimate certificate). Is there anything wrong with me posting them here so that people can comment on whether they think they're actually bugs or not? I'm likely to get more notice here than over at bugzilla.

kevlarman · « **Reply #6 on:** July 17, 2007, 07:01:05 pm »

Quote from: "Nux"

Quote from: "David"
Quote from: "Timbo"
Use the bug tracker.

I find that thing awkward (also my browser keeps telling my it hasn't got a legitimate certificate). Is there anything wrong with me posting them here so that people can comment on whether they think they're actually bugs or not? I'm likely to get more notice here than over at bugzilla.

forums are very bad for keeping track of bugs, whether it's one thread or a bunch of threads, no one wants to look at it. bugzilla is specifically designed for keeping track of bugs, and pretty much everyone who can confirm whether it is a bug or not and do something about it if it is watches bugzilla.[/quote]

Nux · « **Reply #7 on:** July 18, 2007, 06:27:00 pm »

Ok. Done.

Timbo · « **Reply #8 on:** August 05, 2007, 08:15:15 pm »

I barely read the forums, so this is an exceptionally bad place to report bugs.

kevlarman · « **Reply #9 on:** August 05, 2007, 08:18:50 pm »

Quote from: "Timbo"

I barely read the forums, so this is an exceptionally bad place to report bugs.

you barely fix (cgame/ui/game) bugs too

tehOen · « **Reply #10 on:** August 05, 2007, 09:03:45 pm »

so we barely get 1.2

Nux · « **Reply #11 on:** August 05, 2007, 09:08:45 pm »

Well I did report it to bugzilla and they still didn't like it ^^ They expect me to seperate all the bugs out into reports of their own.

Well nuts to that! I've done more than I have to already. I suppose they don't mind looking thier gift horses in the mouth.

Timbo · « **Reply #12 on:** August 05, 2007, 09:15:38 pm »

This is why I don't read the forums.

Undeference · « **Reply #13 on:** September 09, 2007, 01:32:27 pm »

If you don't like the invalid certificate warning, use http://bugzilla.icculus.org/ instead

Yorper · « **Reply #14 on:** September 09, 2007, 03:12:20 pm »

Quote from: "Undeference"

If you don't like the invalid certificate warning, use http://bugzilla.icculus.org/ instead

I will next time, thanks. But i've made my report of that bug now and as far as i care its now in the devs hands. Feel free to add it to bugzilla yourself this time though. My hands are washed of it

Undeference · « **Reply #15 on:** September 09, 2007, 03:55:05 pm »

That's not exactly how bug reporting works. If additional information is needed about a bug, it will usually be up to the reporter to provide it (since the reporter is often the first to discover the bug). Otherwise, it may be impossible to track down the bug.

On the forum, it won't be seen by as many of the people who would see it on bugzilla. There is also no reliable way to request more details (like might be needed with this bug).

Yorper · « **Reply #16 on:** September 09, 2007, 08:18:37 pm »

Quote from: "Undeference"

That's not exactly how bug reporting works. If additional information is needed about a bug, it will usually be up to the reporter to provide it (since the reporter is often the first to discover the bug). Otherwise, it may be impossible to track down the bug.

On the forum, it won't be seen by as many of the people who would see it on bugzilla. There is also no reliable way to request more details (like might be needed with this bug).

Please dont take this the wrong, i fully understand and appreciate what you're saying. But i really dont care anymore. As far as im now concerned its reported and in the devs hands.

Undeference · « **Reply #17 on:** September 09, 2007, 09:32:16 pm »

Quote from: "Yorper"

i fully understand and appreciate what you're saying.

I don't believe you do, so I will spell it out clearly.

As far as I am aware, you are the only person who has seen this bug. If that is the case, you may be the only one who can help determine where the bug is, if it is still valid, and if it ever was. You reported a bug in an incorrect and inconvenient manner and are refusing to participate further in the correction process. You say it is "in the devs hands" and are expecting someone else to fix it without any kind of help. Yet you are the one who is annoyed by it.

What normally happens with abandoned bugs is they get marked invalid after a while and forgotten about. Since you can't be bothered to submit the bug properly in the first place, it probably won't even get that far.

All I am asking is that you spend 20 seconds to report your bug correctly. You already spent more than that talking about it in "an exceptionally bad place" and replying to effectively say "fuck you".

http://bugzilla.icculus.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Tremulous

Yorper · « **Reply #18 on:** September 09, 2007, 11:04:47 pm »

Quote from: "Undeference"

Quote from: "Yorper"
i fully understand and appreciate what you're saying.
I don't believe you do, so I will spell it out clearly.

As far as I am aware, you are the only person who has seen this bug. If that is the case, you may be the only one who can help determine where the bug is, if it is still valid, and if it ever was. You reported a bug in an incorrect and inconvenient manner and are refusing to participate further in the correction process. You say it is "in the devs hands" and are expecting someone else to fix it without any kind of help. Yet you are the one who is annoyed by it.

What normally happens with abandoned bugs is they get marked invalid after a while and forgotten about. Since you can't be bothered to submit the bug properly in the first place, it probably won't even get that far.

All I am asking is that you spend 20 seconds to report your bug correctly. You already spent more than that talking about it in "an exceptionally bad place" and replying to effectively say "fuck you".

http://bugzilla.icculus.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Tremulous

Because i don't care. If they had their shit in order with certificates i would have used bugtracker, but as they dont i didnt. As i said before, i no longer care about it because as far as i am concerned it is now reported. Anyone wanting more info on it is free to PM me, other than that its over.

Have a nice day and try to relax, maybe more fibre in your diet?

Nux · « **Reply #19 on:** September 11, 2007, 12:07:53 am »

I'm with Yorper. I've been through the same thing.

I report the bugs to the forum for the same reason Yorper did (the lack of certificates). I give all I know about the problem in that post. I get a response of "Use Bugzilla... FOOL!". I feel annoyed and wonder why they feel it's more helpful to tell me that, than to help me out by using their account to post it.. maybe they don't have one because they can't be bothered to make bug reports.

Yet here I am being generous and do even more than I have to by contacting the uncertified website, signing up with them, and posting the bugs there. Yet still, this isn't enough. I get a frank reply stating that I should send one report per bug. Yet again, if this is so simple to do why can't they? I found little point in doing more than I already had and left it there.

I wonder how many more people have been discouraged from helping out because of an unwelcoming report system. I'm sure if so few people feel it worth going through this process, that the devs will be happy to think that this is because there aren't actually any bugs to report.

n00b pl0x · « **Reply #20 on:** September 11, 2007, 12:17:23 am »

Quote from: "Nux"

I wonder how many more people have been discouraged from helping out because of an unwelcoming report system.

I know i have. so i just exploit them instead until they get mainstream and someone else decides to submit them the right way to that devilhax site

Somethief · « **Reply #21 on:** September 14, 2007, 07:29:44 pm »

Nux and Yorker pay us a certificate signed by a known party and you don't have to whine ?

Timbo · « **Reply #22 on:** September 14, 2007, 07:46:01 pm »

Quote from: "Nux"

I'm with Yorper. I've been through the same thing.

I report the bugs to the forum for the same reason Yorper did (the lack of certificates). I give all I know about the problem in that post. I get a response of "Use Bugzilla... FOOL!". I feel annoyed and wonder why they feel it's more helpful to tell me that, than to help me out by using their account to post it.. maybe they don't have one because they can't be bothered to make bug reports.

Yet here I am being generous and do even more than I have to by contacting the uncertified website, signing up with them, and posting the bugs there. Yet still, this isn't enough. I get a frank reply stating that I should send one report per bug. Yet again, if this is so simple to do why can't they? I found little point in doing more than I already had and left it there.

I wonder how many more people have been discouraged from helping out because of an unwelcoming report system. I'm sure if so few people feel it worth going through this process, that the devs will be happy to think that this is because there aren't actually any bugs to report.

<CBG> Last night's Itchy & Scratchy was, without a doubt, the worst episode ever. Rest assured I was on the internet within minutes registering my disgust throughout the world.
<Bart> Hey, I know it wasn't great, but what right do you have to complain?
<CBG> As a loyal viewer, I feel they owe me.
<Bart> What? They're giving you thousands of hours of entertainment for free. What could they possibly owe you? I mean, if anything, you owe them.
<CBG> Worst episode ever.

Nux · « **Reply #23 on:** September 14, 2007, 09:44:49 pm »

Be careful what you interpret. My post is merely observational. I've reminded other people myself that the tremulous devs are doing alot more than they have to.

When a tremulous user gives a bug report, he's trying to help the devs make the game better. If you don't want peoples help then that's fair enough. With the system that's in place you're not likely to get that help anyway. The certificates are not the major issue, they were only an initial incentive not to use bugzilla and instead post on the forums.

The major issue is the attitude of those who mock people trying to help and suggest that the bug-report system is so simple. Yet they wouldn't help out by reporting it for them, pressumably because it's not so simple. If my help is not wanted, I'd prefer to know in advance so as to avoid the abuse I get when I offer it.

Caveman · « **Reply #24 on:** September 14, 2007, 10:41:49 pm »

Just a dumb question.
What is the problem with this certificate?
It is not valid, so what? What good would it be if it were?
If you can't be bothered to add 2 more clicks to your report and like to do at least 5 more on the forum, that is your shit.
But do not try to piss on the DEVs.

Timbo · « **Reply #25 on:** September 14, 2007, 10:54:14 pm »

Quote from: "Nux"

The certificates are not the major issue, they were only an initial incentive not to use bugzilla and instead post on the forums.

The self signed certificate is not as issue at all. It's just a case of clicking OK to the warning. If that's too much effort, don't use SSL in the first place.

Quote from: "Nux"

The major issue is the attitude of those who mock people trying to help and suggest that the bug-report system is so simple. Yet they wouldn't help out by reporting it for them, pressumably because it's not so simple. If my help is not wanted, I'd prefer to know in advance so as to avoid the abuse I get when I offer it.

Bug reports are valued obviously, but they're impossible to manage if they're spread out across email, private messages, web forums, IRC etc etc. I really struggle to comprehend the train of thought that leads to someone thinking a web forum is a sensible place to report a bug.

Use of a bug tracking system solves this problem by centralising the bug reports in a single place that is visible to everyone, and providing tools pertinent to software development. Furthermore, it is a "push" system, so it is impossible for the developers to miss a bug report, unlike the fart in the wind approach of a web forum. Registering for the bug tracker is no more complicated than registering for a web forum, something you're vocally demonstrating you managed just fine.

If you don't like using a bug tracker then fine, but don't expect your bugs to get fixed and don't waste your energy and mine complaining about it.

Nux · « **Reply #26 on:** September 15, 2007, 12:31:15 am »

Quote from: "Timbo"

The self signed certificate is not as issue at all. It's just a case of clicking OK to the warning. If that's too much effort, don't use SSL in the first place.

So long as the browser gives a warning message stating that it is inadvisable to access such a site without the necessary certificate, there is an issue. Though you see no problem with it because you trust the site, this does not mean this message wouldn't worry others. I'm not suggesting the site is dangerous, merely that such messages make it seem so and this results in people reporting the bugs here instead.

Quote from: "Timbo"

Bug reports are valued obviously, but they're impossible to manage if they're spread out across email, private messages, web forums, IRC etc etc.

I used Bugzilla as I have already mentioned. This apparently wasn't enough. The reply was that I shouldn't have listed each of the bugs in reports of their own. Not only did I have no warning about this but I had given all that I knew about each bug. If it is so easy to report these things why couldn't they have seperated these bugs out themselves? People in general don't like having their charity scrutinized. The saying goes "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth*".Who knows, I might have even done this for them had they suggested it in a more friendly manner.

*For those who don't understand this saying: you're supposed to be able to tell a horses age by it's teeth, so looking a gift horse in the mouth would mean checking how much they're getting instead of appreciating the fact that they're getting this for free from some kind person.

Quote from: "Timbo"

I really struggle to comprehend the train of thought that leads to someone thinking a web forum is a sensible place to report a bug.

In an ideal case, a forum community would have members who are willing to help such people understand whether these are in fact bugs or not, and perhaps even help with the reporting of the bug on their behalf. I know that when I posted those bugs to this thread, I wanted to find out if they were bugs and hopefully get some help reporting them at the same time. I found bug tracker fiddly and uninformative. I can see that I'm not the only one who has found this.

Quote from: "Timbo"

If you don't like using a bug tracker then fine, but don't expect your bugs to get fixed and don't waste your energy and mine complaining about it.

I don't know how many bug reports you get, but are you considering those you are missing out on? Can the bugzilla system be improved to make reporting more user-friendly?

Please remember that this is only a concern for me because I want to help. I wouldn't consider myself lazy or stupid and yet I got frustrated with what I was put through to simply offer my account of issues. I feel this is an issue in itself.

I love this game and appreciate what has been done by the devs already. Maybe there have been too many complainers and compulsive suggesters in the past for devs to respond kindly to criticism anymore. This would be a shame since I feel as though I have something constructive to offer.

Timbo · « **Reply #27 on:** September 15, 2007, 01:33:11 am »

Quote from: "Nux"

I got frustrated with what I was put through

Dude, you make it sound like you've been through a Nazi concentration camp.

Quote from: "http://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3267"

------- Comment #1 From Tim Angus 2007-07-18 17:08:15 EDT [reply] -------

1. Don't submit collections of unrelated bugs, they're impossible to track.
2. Make sure you're not resubmitting bugs that already been fixed or rejected.

These are not unreasonable requests, nor are they phrased offensively.

Quote from: "Nux"

People in general don't like having their charity scrutinized.

Your problem is that you are looking at the trivial amount of time taken to report a bug as an act of generosity; like I owe you something for doing it. While it's certainly appreciated, you shouldn't kid yourself that your modicum of effort grants you the right to moan about the means by which I have chosen to track bugs. Look at it from my perspective. Bugs mean more work for me. Bugs that are not reported properly mean more unnecessary work for me. Dealing with complaints about the bug tracker means more patently stupid work for me. ...And now I'm done beating my head off a brick wall.

News:

Author Topic: Bugs (Read 64239 times)

tehOen