TJW's admin mod ... good or evil?

[Risujin]

Today I was kicked from a server running my own mod. In the middle of a game, this guy joins and decides to decon my reactor and rebuild it, along with new nodes, next to a cliff so he can practice sky diving (not to mention how the other team gets points every time he dies). Being none too happy with his new plan for my base I resisted. Well turns out he's an admin, and bam, before I know it its !kick ris. I thought this was truly ironic since I was the one who patched the admin features into the mod in the first place.

Another time I was playing my own mod on a different server. It was a small game and I was winning 1 (me) vs 2. Well one of them had admin and he wasnt too pleased with my performance. So he decides !putteam ris spec and back and gone is my bsuit and 2000 credits in an instant. He laughs it up.

Maybe its just me but I get the feeling that TJW's admin commands (!kick etc) get abused more often than they are actually used for genuine purposes. Whenever there is a real lamer, they always get vote kicked. Whereas server operators rely on giving admin privilages to unknowns who then go on to abuse their powers.

It reminds me of the famous psychology experiment where volunteers were hired to simulate a real prison and just being in a position of power caused the prison guards to abuse their powers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Prison_Experiment

I know server ops feel like they should be master of their own house, but thats what rcon is for. Learn to use it, please! Giving admin rights to any idiot who asks (whatever the level) is irresponsible. Believe me, you haven't got a clue as to how bad it can get when you're not around.

EDIT: In light of my experiences, Im adding new and more abusive commands for the next revision.

[kevlarman]

I'm wondering why people would want to play a mod written by a person who doesn't know what code he did and didn't put into it.
edit: give up yet?

[Risujin]

I'm wondering why people would want to play a mod written by a person who doesn't know what code he did and didn't put into it.
edit: give up yet?

What makes you think I didn't know? At the time I naively thought it was a good thing... Notice how all of that happened *after* I made the mod?

[Caveman]

I don't understand this poll...

Of course every admin-feature can be abused, but to work w/o them would be more deadly as that would mean unattended servers that could only be administered via rcon.
And what idiot would be willing to hand that much power to players?

Face it, it's not the tool that does the damage, it's the abusive use.

If you get abused on a server, search out their forum, try to complain to the owner. If that does not resolve the issue, stay away from that server.

anyways, imho the more server are being sprung into existence by immature people the more abuse you get.
But that is bound to happen to any game.
But with the admin_mod those servers are more easy to identify and to avoid. -> self-cleaning *s*

[kevlarman]

I'm wondering why people would want to play a mod written by a person who doesn't know what code he did and didn't put into it.
edit: give up yet?

What makes you think I didn't know? At the time I naively thought it was a good thing... Notice how all of that happened *after* I made the mod?

because if you think that giving out admin rights is unnecessary, then you have no clue what you're talking about(that, and i think you managed to apply 3 patches at once that allow reloading of energy weapons at the armory). you can't vote kick a deconner before the damage is done (yes !kick isn't great either, but i've caught people in time to minimize the damage), and after you kick him, there is nothing stopping him from coming back next game, and the one after that, and after that, and all of that assumes that he doesn't call some kickvotes himself, and get half the server kicked, and prevent anyone from calling a kickvote on him. if you don't like the admins, complain to the server operator instead of blaming the admin system.

[Risujin]

to work w/o them would be more deadly as that would mean unattended servers that could only be administered via rcon.
And what idiot would be willing to hand that much power to players?

Admin hands it to one player -- why trust any one player over a democratic vote?

My point is that admin abuse is more of an issue than whatever player abuse those admin powers were supposed to prevent. Mainly because these "frightening player abuses" can be more fairly handled with a player vote. Since its the players that have to deal with lamer behavior, they should have the final say as to what to allow and what not to allow.

If you get abused on a server, search out their forum, try to complain to the owner. If that does not resolve the issue, stay away from that server.

Even if you do manage to get a hold of the owner, its your word against the admins. Who is the owner going to trust? Server logs wont always reveal all of whats going on (so-and-so decons reactor, why? is he a deconner? was he moving? who knows...).

[Risujin]

you can't vote kick a deconner before the damage is done

Admins can't rebuild dead reactors either. !designate only causes problems with multiple builders. !denybuild could easily be a team vote.

(yes !kick isn't great either, but i've caught people in time to minimize the damage), and after you kick him, there is nothing stopping him from coming back next game, and the one after that, and after that, and all of that assumes that he doesn't call some kickvotes himself, and get half the server kicked, and prevent anyone from calling a kickvote on him.

You don't need an admin in this easily detectable case. A rapidly reconnecting client has the same IP and can have his kick time exponentially increased with each vote.

(that, and i think you managed to apply 3 patches at once that allow reloading of energy weapons at the armory)

You just won't give this up will you? If the damn thing works, who cares? There are worse hacks in the engine (do a search for "hack" and watch...) Besides, I wanna be damn sure I can reload my energy weapons.

[Caveman]

to work w/o them would be more deadly as that would mean unattended servers that could only be administered via rcon.
And what idiot would be willing to hand that much power to players?

Admin hands it to one player -- why trust any one player over a democratic vote?

Huh? I don't get you, didn't you do your homework on the various admin-levels and how you can very finely grain the parmissions?
So the more you trust a player, the more power he can get.
As for a democratic vote... Which votes exactly do you mean?
Vot-kicking a deconner, that always changes his name or reconnects just before a vote passes?

My point is that admin abuse is more of an issue than whatever player abuse those admin powers were supposed to prevent. Mainly because these "frightening player abuses" can be more fairly handled with a player vote. Since its the players that have to deal with lamer behavior, they should have the final say as to what to allow and what not to allow.

You got that one saddled up the wrong way.
Those commands were not made to regulate the admin.
They were made to administrate a server.
And you remember, that a server is nothing democratic? The owner pays, he makes the rules, not the players.
As for "player abuse" like grieving and such, have you ever tried to vote-kick someone that really knows how to grieve?? I guess not.
The voting as such is so half heartedly implemented in trem that it is really easy to circumvent.

If you get abused on a server, search out their forum, try to complain to the owner. If that does not resolve the issue, stay away from that server.

Even if you do manage to get a hold of the owner, its your word against the admins. Who is the owner going to trust? Server logs wont always reveal all of whats going on (so-and-so decons reactor, why? is he a deconner? was he moving? who knows...).

Aha, there we get to the point. So you think it is better to banish the whole admin_mod because you think it's useless to report bad behaviour to the owner?
Sheesh, grow up.
If everybody would think like you, then I'd conceed your point as valid.
But luckily you are just a member of a very small minority.
Guess what, the more complains an owner gets the more he know there is something wrong on his server.
On a side note... Have you ever tried to read a server-log?
You'd be very surprised what's all logged there, beside the obvious admin-commands.

So pleeeease get you facts straight before you try to piss on admin_mod.

[Caveman]

(yes !kick isn't great either, but i've caught people in time to minimize the damage), and after you kick him, there is nothing stopping him from coming back next game, and the one after that, and after that, and all of that assumes that he doesn't call some kickvotes himself, and get half the server kicked, and prevent anyone from calling a kickvote on him.

You don't need an admin in this easily detectable case. A rapidly reconnecting client has the same IP and can have his kick time exponentially increased with each vote.

Oh puhleaaaase!
Since when would that do any good?
Have you ever heard of dyn-IPs?
One who knows how to "rapidly" decon knows how to change his IP after a kick, for sure...

Another side-note.
Have you ever tried kicking a deconer with a vote?
4 out of 5 times that kick-vote will NOT pass, because it has not been called as a team-vote and nearly all team-votes time out as no one has bound "teamvote yes".
And while you sit by and wait for your loved vote to fail the deconner goes on... smart move :thumbsup:

[Kaleo]

FIGHT THE POWER!!!

[vcxzet]

I'm wondering why people would want to play a mod written by a person who doesn't know what code he did and didn't put into it.
edit: give up yet?

I take it personal

[next_ghost]

Admins can't rebuild dead reactors either. !designate only causes problems with multiple builders. !denybuild could easily be a team vote.

!denybuild is about as useful as !kick and !ban. When it's right to use them, it's already too late. !designate works fine as long as the designated guy is a GOOD builder.

Anyway, I think it's way too easy to set up an Internet server. There should be some knowledge barrier to keep clueless noobs from setting their own Internet server just to ruin others' games by admin system abuse.

[rasz_pl]

Whereas server operators rely on giving admin privilages to unknowns who then go on to abuse their powers.

TADA, you just found your problem. You just dont run arround and give admin privileges to unknowns. Contact server owner, make a complaint.

[Lava Croft]

Stop moaning about admins. If you think you can do better, go host your own server. Then it's your time, your money, your kingdom. Comply or die.

Oh, by the way, you indeed are a lamer.

[Risujin]

Huh? I don't get you, didn't you do your homework on the various admin-levels and how you can very finely grain the parmissions?
So the more you trust a player, the more power he can get.

Its been my experience at least that owners tend to give admin to anyone who asks, with sufficient privilages to kick, putteam, etc. You can abuse almost all of the commands there. TJW's rules for using his own admin system on his server are very strict for almost every command.

As for a democratic vote... Which votes exactly do you mean?
Vot-kicking a deconner, that always changes his name or reconnects just before a vote passes?

Huh? I don't get you, didn't you do your homework on the various vote types and how you can clientkick by slot number?

Also I should point out that Im not suggesting removing admin mod from all servers. I'm only concerned with Balance mod, and possibly creating a more general patch later. Rather by augmenting vote kick (by porting over !kick features probably) we can eliminate the need for the admin mod. So any technical problems that admin mod !kick solves such as reconnect right before a kick we can port over.

You got that one saddled up the wrong way.
Those commands were not made to regulate the admin.
They were made to administrate a server.
And you remember, that a server is nothing democratic? The owner pays, he makes the rules, not the players.

The server owner hosts the server, thats a contribution yes. But what about players? Don't they contribute for playing? What about developers? Timbo, Jex, TJW, the other devs and countless patchers (least of all but myself as well) have put in long hours into the game and we didn't contribute?

Since server owners and admins are the only ones that are in charge here lets not remove admin commands, lets add more! I have a great idea! Its called '!supertyrant', it allows an admin to turn into a 999 hp wallclimbing tyrant that shoots lasers and sees through walls and can kill people who havent even spawned yet!! Wouldn't that be great! Since we already allow admins to alter the gameplay by !putteam, !kick, !denybuild, etc I think its only fair.

As for "player abuse" like grieving and such, have you ever tried to vote-kick someone that really knows how to grieve?? I guess not.
The voting as such is so half heartedly implemented in trem that it is really easy to circumvent.

This is not an argument for admin mod, its an argument for someone to finish coding a proper voting system.

If everybody would think like you, then I'd conceed your point as valid.
But luckily you are just a member of a very small minority.
Guess what, the more complains an owner gets the more he know there is something wrong on his server.

As I write this there are two other admin-related threads on the main page, one of which is incidentally called "all admins suck".

Oh puhleaaaase!
Since when would that do any good?
Have you ever heard of dyn-IPs?
One who knows how to "rapidly" decon knows how to change his IP after a kick, for sure...

The technical aspects of this are that the deconner has to:
a) reconnect his dialup
b) restart his router
c) change his guid
d) in any case avoids any and all admin mod protections as well
You can't make a technical argument here. We can port admin mod protections to the voting system.

Oh, by the way, you indeed are a lamer.

I now realize I shouldve said "greiver", but if you think I'm a lamer for posting this than thats your opinion. -1 Troll

TADA, you just found your problem. You just dont run arround and give admin privileges to unknowns. Contact server owner, make a complaint.

Actually I wouldnt put so much faith into admins. Balance mod ran for a long time with a good number of patched in features that were disabled by default, not a single server operator enabled them. When I modified the game to enable the features, not a single owner disabled them. Server ops aren't coders, they don't want to have to hack the server for days to fine tune it, they just want the damn thing to work.

Its one thing to give admin to someone you trust only because they are civil in your presence (who isn't?) but when they abuse behind your back you never hear of it (and server logs dont always show the situation, or get looked at even...). Tremulous doesnt even have a systematic method for contacting admins, maybe a !report_abuse command is in order.

!denybuild is about as useful as !kick and !ban. When it's right to use them, it's already too late. !designate works fine as long as the designated guy is a GOOD builder.

Designate doesnt work right at all. Imagine two (good) builders. One is designated (by admin), one isnt. If the designated builder builds at S1 and then runs off to attack, come S3 non-designated good builder cant decon the turrets to put down teslas and has to ask to be designated! Why should players beg for designation every round?

Anyway, I think it's way too easy to set up an Internet server. There should be some knowledge barrier to keep clueless noobs from setting their own Internet server just to ruin others' games by admin system abuse.

Rightly so. Even with the next rev. of Balance mod, if I remove admin, you can always patch it back in but expect to get your hands dirty if and when.

[Survivor]

Of course those are abusable rights, that's why they are given to admins and not to all players.
Refering to a thread name does not make it a valid point. If I made a topic good jobs admins would you accept it fullheartedly as well? The fact is people never make a thread to pat any admins on the back for a good job, only to complain.

So you're basicly saying the people on the server determine the rules.
Several cases I've heard of where
- Polish people kicking people from a non-polish server by vote kick because they were in the majority. They were not part of the server's staff.
- People spamming votes for atcs and other maps till they pass.
- People calling votes for kicking people without mentioning any reason, even when asked to do so.
- People calling votes for restarting a map 10 seconds after they entered the server.
- People even calling votes to kick admins before they logged in.
- People spamming F1 F1 F1 because they want the vote to pass without even giving a reason.

You sir, are one uptight bastard for thinking democracy works.
If a server owner wants to have his server run by idiots it's his right because he is paying. You are not in the position to dictate him on what is right and what is wrong.

Last piece of advice, you can remove the admin commands from your mod, that is your full right. But it will be less popular if it proves to be more abuse friendly since there are no judges around. Thus making it less of a success than it could be. If you want to be anal just make a switch where you enable/disable all admin commands from the server. Best of both worlds.

[tuple]

The nice thing about tjw's admin mod is the ability to have different commands available to different levels and even individuals.  Not to mention the ability to create your own commands if needed.

You may not trust someone with rcon, but you can be perfectly fine with giving server regulars the ability to !allready or !cancelvote.  The right to !kick quickly in the event of a deconner, but not !ban outright can be useful.

People can and will abuse authority.  It can be useful to limit authority to what is needed instead of the keys to your car being the same keys you use for your house and bank account.

[rasz_pl]

TADA, you just found your problem. You just dont run arround and give admin privileges to unknowns. Contact server owner, make a complaint.

Actually I wouldnt put so much faith into admins. Balance mod ran for a long time with a good number of patched in features that were disabled by default, not a single server operator enabled them. When I modified the game to enable the features, not a single owner disabled them. Server ops aren't coders, they don't want to have to hack the server for days to fine tune it, they just want the damn thing to work.

what does it have to do with chosing good admins?

Its one thing to give admin to someone you trust only because they are civil in your presence (who isn't?) but when they abuse behind your back you never hear of it (and server logs dont always show the situation, or get looked at even...). Tremulous doesnt even have a systematic method for contacting admins, maybe a !report_abuse command is in order.

!report_abuse name reason
is actually a good idea

[Risujin]

Of course those are abusable rights, that's why they are given to admins and not to all players.
Refering to a thread name does not make it a valid point. If I made a topic good jobs admins would you accept it fullheartedly as well? The fact is people never make a thread to pat any admins on the back for a good job, only to complain.

I found a third thread in the meantime, but you have a point. Nevertheless, admin abuse is an issue and people are talking about it, thats all I wanted to say with that.

So you're basicly saying the people on the server determine the rules.
Several cases I've heard of where

They're the ones playing, why can't they determine rules that govern themselves?

- Polish people kicking people from a non-polish server by vote kick because they were in the majority. They were not part of the server's staff.

Yes, I realize this is a problem with clans also. Besides designated admins there is no real way around it. To me it is a lesser evil though.

- People spamming votes for atcs and other maps till they pass.
- People calling votes for kicking people without mentioning any reason, even when asked to do so.
- People calling votes for restarting a map 10 seconds after they entered the server.
- People even calling votes to kick admins before they logged in.
- People spamming F1 F1 F1 because they want the vote to pass without even giving a reason.

Basically you don't like spamming votes. This is addressed by having a maximum vote number cap in SVN. Kick reasons should be implemented as a necessary argument to kick and clientkick, also would require a text box widget for the UI vote.

You sir, are one uptight bastard for thinking democracy works.

In that case not only myself but, the drafters of the Magna Carta, and the authors of the United States constitution are all unapologetically uptight bastards.

If a server owner wants to have his server run by idiots it's his right because he is paying. You are not in the position to dictate him on what is right and what is wrong.

Oh yes I do. Whose code is he running? He wouldnt have a game to run if it weren't for Timbo and the devs. Its a kind of "checks and balances" system.

Last piece of advice, you can remove the admin commands from your mod, that is your full right. But it will be less popular if it proves to be more abuse friendly since there are no judges around. Thus making it less of a success than it could be.

Well if it turns out the mod sucks, just don't run it. I won't argue that.

If you want to be anal just make a switch where you enable/disable all admin commands from the server. Best of both worlds.

It already starts out disabled. Apparently people like it.

[Risujin]

TADA, you just found your problem. You just dont run arround and give admin privileges to unknowns. Contact server owner, make a complaint.

Actually I wouldnt put so much faith into admins. Balance mod ran for a long time with a good number of patched in features that were disabled by default, not a single server operator enabled them. When I modified the game to enable the features, not a single owner disabled them. Server ops aren't coders, they don't want to have to hack the server for days to fine tune it, they just want the damn thing to work.

what does it have to do with chosing good admins?

Was trying to imply that if you dont put in time to configure your server, you probably wouldnt put in time to make sure your admins are being fair. Not necessarily true, but nonetheless it would be good to have a more automatic way of controling abuse.

Its one thing to give admin to someone you trust only because they are civil in your presence (who isn't?) but when they abuse behind your back you never hear of it (and server logs dont always show the situation, or get looked at even...). Tremulous doesnt even have a systematic method for contacting admins, maybe a !report_abuse command is in order.

!report_abuse name reason
is actually a good idea

rasz, rack your brains and make it work. I want a patch by monday.

[Risujin]

Heres an idea: an admin abuse honeypot.

Image if the supertyrant command above after turning you into a super tyrant set your admin level to 0 for doing something so stupid. > : )

[Survivor]

My real problem is this.

The admins are drawn from the playerbase of a server. Those that play are often chosen after a lot of thought.
The admins are chosen by the person who pays/is responsible for the server.
They admins are representative of the person paying/responsible.
You know who to point to when something goes wrong and who to turn to.

Now you get the following case.

The players are the ones in charge.
The players decide what happens over one player/issue.
The server owner loses any authority he has.
Who is at fault when something goes wrong and who do you tell?

You say the players should have fun for something they do not pay for and the server owner should just throw his money away?

The admins that do wrong are heard about.
There are enough admins who do right and have integrity ingrained but remain silent, some do not even log in unless it is needed. You make it come over that every admin is an idiot, I know you don't mean it like that but be straight about it.

We have a vote system currently, it gets abused more than any admins do in my opinion.

The devs, coders, mappers and more have any reasonable person's gratitude, but in the same way the good admins are not often heard about there are more complaints about things than congratulations.

[Lava Croft]

I now realize I shouldve said "greiver", but if you think I'm a lamer for posting this than thats your opinion. -1 Troll

Look at the poll, tough guy.

[Paradox]

On sst, we have a system that has TJW's commands, and some of R1's votes, along with a few new ones. We have kick votes with reasons, mute votes, teammute votes, teamkick votes, team designante and undesignate.

Come in, and if a player is a bad person, you can /callvote player reason
Or /callvote player mute

[Caveman]

You sir, are one uptight bastard for thinking democracy works.

In that case not only myself but, the drafters of the Magna Carta, and the authors of the United States constitution are all unapologetically uptight bastards.

Of all things, leave the US out of it. The one place where the election can be screwed easiest.
BTW where in your holy Magna Carta or Constitution was the US granted to implement Guantanamo?
That is admin-abuse, just open your eyes. It might be on another level and disguised as "Homeland Security" or something.
But you Sir should not go around toting those 2 failed pieces of papers that is used as toiletpaper by your own government.
If you reply to this, please come up with a very good reason as to the why your President has removed the US from the jurisdiction of the UNO and begun to treat the human rights as something people have to earn.

[next_ghost]

Designate doesnt work right at all. Imagine two (good) builders. One is designated (by admin), one isnt. If the designated builder builds at S1 and then runs off to attack, come S3 non-designated good builder cant decon the turrets to put down teslas and has to ask to be designated! Why should players beg for designation every round?

It takes whole 30 seconds to get teamvote designated, it's no time when the round lasts for 30+ minutes. And the reason why players lose designation is because nobody can guarantee they'll be on the same team with the same people in the next round. But if you have a good alternative, you're free to suggest it in the Designated builders: feature design topic.

[whitebear]

Well admin tools are like guns.
It's not good or evil unless someone shoots with it.
If it's in hand of police it gets law brakers dead for permanet (like ban for cheating?)
If it's in hand of criminal (abusive admin?) it does damage to those who does not deserve it (kicked for being too good?)

[Undeference]

!ABUSE ... yeah, right. There are websites, forums, and email addresses for that.

That's /callvote kick player reason, /callvote mute player

I'd just love to talk about how successful democracy is and such, but I think you may be changing your stance on that based on the democratic concensus here

[_Equilibrium_]

if you don't like the admins, go to another server

[DieFamilyGuy]

well that sounds familiar.....



o yeah, orc and stasis.