Author Topic: We need default ream randomization badly.  (Read 12215 times)

TyrranzzX

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« on: December 11, 2006, 08:23:04 pm »
I just tried to find a game.  Guess what?  

I tried 10 different servers, all of them had stacked teams.  Half of them were because of clans like CU, Com, ect decided they want to be lame n00bs and ruin the fun for everyone else (BTW, if you want to avoid bad servers, avoid servers run by clans; they always stack and always abuse admin privelages).  The other ones were because people were having such grand fun playing on one side they decided to continue to play one side, game after game causing the continuation of a stacked side.

Anyway, if there was an option to force teams to be randomized and you couldn't switch for 2 minutes upon the start of a game that'd solve the problem.  Another good addition is to increase spawn counters when the teams become unbalanced.
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kevlarman

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Re: We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2006, 08:41:17 pm »
Quote from: "TyrranzzX"
I just tried to find a game.  Guess what?  

I tried 10 different servers, all of them had stacked teams.  Half of them were because of clans like CU, Com, ect decided they want to be lame n00bs and ruin the fun for everyone else (BTW, if you want to avoid bad servers, avoid servers run by clans; they always stack and always abuse admin privelages).  The other ones were because people were having such grand fun playing on one side they decided to continue to play one side, game after game causing the continuation of a stacked side.

Anyway, if there was an option to force teams to be randomized and you couldn't switch for 2 minutes upon the start of a game that'd solve the problem.  Another good addition is to increase spawn counters when the teams become unbalanced.
i wrote a patch for that (g_forceautoselect), a few servers are running it that i know of, but i think they all have it disabled (as a side note, enabling that variable causes trem to be almost statistically balanced), it's in avenger's qvm and in mine (which i don't bother releasing atm, so it's only on some of the mg servers)
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Undeference

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2006, 09:27:47 pm »
SST actually has g_forceAutoSelect enabled
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KamikOzzy

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2006, 04:55:04 am »
At the AoD server, we much prefer to spilt ourselves up. Playing on the same team with the same people gets boring, and we save it for clan matches and practices. We also have friends of our clan that visit regularly and are comparable to our skill level. You're guaranteed a good match every time, and aliens and humans seem to win at about an even percentage.

As for admin, we have a strict policy that any command that gets abused is removed from that admin for a period of time. If you play with us, I'll make sure you are treated fairly. I don't want clan servers to have the kind of repuation you described.  8)
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khalsa

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2006, 05:11:11 am »
I'm sorry, I'm generally not one to do this, but this is too much.

"Does that mean you badly want to be randomly reamed by default?"

on topic: Use g_forceautoselect!
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kozak6

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2006, 06:02:55 am »
Quote from: "khalsa"
I'm sorry, I'm generally not one to do this, but this is too much.

"Does that mean you badly want to be randomly reamed by default?"


That reminds me of some websites that..er...aren't appropriate for this forum.

Nevermind.

Paradox

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2006, 08:05:30 pm »
SST has forced auto select on.

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techhead

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2006, 09:14:54 pm »
Perhaps he means by spreading the good players evenly between the two teams.
Possibly, the server could keep track of individual stats by client slot and/or GUID number.
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rasz_pl

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2006, 09:19:04 pm »
Quote from: "techhead"
Perhaps he means by spreading the good players evenly between the two teams.
Possibly, the server could keep track of individual stats by client slot and/or GUID number.


could use tremstats and look up players kill/death ratio :) but then again it should do that only on auto select

AKAnotu

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2006, 10:12:29 pm »
NO
if the admins are the problems get new ones
i dislike some teams on certain maps, and playing human on uncreation would suck (it's the only map where the camping is reversed, humies feed, aliens camp)
plus, most servers regulate the amount of people on each team, therefore making your point NULL AND VOID

MORON

Paradox

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2006, 11:12:11 pm »
There is a glitch in the way server players are regulated. If a player has team bound, they can just spam back and forth, and join either team. SST has it so the team binds are practically useless.

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Caveman

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2006, 12:14:28 am »
All I can say is WTF?!

"reamed"? hellll, no way I want to get reamed!

_Equilibrium_

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2006, 01:43:48 am »
Quote from: "AKAnotu"
i dislike some teams on certain maps, and playing human on uncreation would suck (it's the only map where the camping is reversed, humies feed, aliens camp)
i think you got that backwards. aliens definitely feed on that map. if teams are even, then hummies have the advantage. you just keep building forward and suffocate the aliens.

The Reverend

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2006, 01:13:51 am »
I agree the forced randomization of teams can be good its nice not know what type of team you may end up with.  But I would hate for it to be on every server.  It's an option just like friendly fire.  Sometimes you want it sometimes you don't.  (oh as an aside the autoselectteam does not work correctly once you have been autoteamed you can easily switch using your join team bind if you truly wanted to enforce it you would have to do autoselect plus autolockteams.)

 And FYI TyrranzzX sometimes CU stacks and sometimes like last night its me vs Darkwolf where we are both the top killer on our teams.  The only reason stacking happens in the case of my clan is 1) Teamspeak (you'd be amazed how much easier it is to coordinate your team with it)
and 2) it's to make sure we don't have a completely useless noob base.  (If you see 3 CU on one team usually only 2 of the 3 are attacking.)  Thanks for bringing this topic up as it could add another flavor to gameplay.

St. Anger

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2006, 01:38:06 am »
Oh Shut the Fuck up TyrranzzX. My god nobody wants to see you complain about stacked teams. The only reason it should be a problem is your lack of skill.

The Reverend

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2006, 08:24:44 pm »
omg Anger that really wasn't neccessary.  Funny but really not needed or neccessary.  On that note LOLOL quit saying what everyone is thinking in their heads.

AKAnotu

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2006, 12:13:55 am »
Quote from: "_Equilibrium_"
Quote from: "AKAnotu"
i dislike some teams on certain maps, and playing human on uncreation would suck (it's the only map where the camping is reversed, humies feed, aliens camp)
i think you got that backwards. aliens definitely feed on that map. if teams are even, then hummies have the advantage. you just keep building forward and suffocate the aliens.

We obviously play with different types of people than i do, and on different servers

Orc

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2006, 09:36:06 pm »
So let me get this straight, you guys think that a gameplay change should be implimented to compensate for your total lack of skill, whereby ensuring that you will get players better than yourself on your team to carry you?

Undeference

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2006, 02:10:32 am »
First, unlike your suggestions, this is not a game play change.
Second, it is rather hypocritical to complain when people are complaining about stacking. A lot of "pros" tend to play with each other (perhaps in more way than one) and that can make the game less fun for other players.
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TyrranzzX

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2006, 05:56:17 am »
Whenever you attempt to insult me, St. Anger, god kills a kitten.

Please, think of the kittens.

Reverend,

Having been in clans and having been a part of running 60+man servers 24 hours a day, and having played on clans which did not stack teams on their home server and on others, having done game cartography and worked with balancing mods for several games, I know from experience that clans which stack do so because they enjoy the bad reputation.

You'll understand when your clan members start getting banned from servers specifically for stacking.  You'll also understand when server admins start bumping your players into obs mid-game or outright kicking them.  Finally you'll get the point when people figure out that your server is always stacked and avoid it.

If it's one thing that will cause a server population to decrease it's a bad expereince for all sides involved.  If it's one thing that will perminantly poison a servers reputation it's when a clan gets on and every night stacks teams.

Enabling Randmized teams on a server tends to cause that server to be much more enjoyable.  Especially when clans begin to change names via scripts to evade bans and other such frivolus stupidity does it work well to stop stacking.
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temple

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2006, 06:11:07 am »
Random teams is fun but not what you think.  Mainly because you get in cycles where you end on the same team all the time or you end up on the same team for the same map.  On SST, it seems like I play the same teams for the same maps of the time, I can't remember the last time I played aliens on Kargath or Archanid

I would like a system where you could pick in advance how your team layout will be.  So I could toggle an option like:

Random team selection
Alternate team each match
Alternate team each map

Give the people with the random or alternating selections first priority on the team placement and if there is any conflict (i.e. I set to play Humans on a map but the human team is full), I get the next spot in line when its availible.

TyrranzzX

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2006, 07:52:59 am »
If I remember correctly, how the team randomization worked for tribes is that it'd parse your GUID into a randomiztion script and if it was even, you'd end up on Team2, and if it was odd, you'd end up on Team1 upon joining a game of even players.  Otherwise you were forced onto the team with the fewest players and that was that.  It wasn't perfect, but then again, tribes is a different game.

A good system for trem would be to generate GUID's based on names through substituting each character for a number.

Then, each map, it'd generate a random number set based upon the GUID's of each individual who was in the game when it started; if nobody was in a server when the server started it would revert to a default script or the previous seed file.

It would group the GUID's into a sequence of smallest to largest, then for GUID's of equal length, oddest first then evenest by sum of odd and even numbers.  So 221122 has a sum of 4 even 2 odd, and 223344 has the same sum; 221123 is 3 even 3 odd.  Then for GUID's of equal evenness or oddness it would put the lower number under the higher number on the list and finally, if their numbers were equal, both players would be kicked (as a check against smurfing).

Once the sequence was generated, it would add it up and see if the resulting number was even or odd and notate it in a varaible called polar.

Finally, it would multiply then divide the sequence in order, so:


212121
324568
221122

would end up



212121
*
324568
/
221122
=
311356.12344316712041316558280045

then multiply it by a power of 10 such that there was no remainder.  Any seed sequence over 256 numbers long would be cut in half lengthwise and divided until it was less than 256 digits.  If the number was irrational then it would simply be truincated after 100 digits or until it hit 256 numbers

=31135612344316712041316558280045

The final number would then be the random seed, and from that all randomness taken for the game.  To generate teams it would take the random seed and parse it into even/oddness; zero designated an even number, 1 an odd:

1111101010011011000111011000001

Then multiply it by the polar variable; if the polar variable was 1 then it would reverse the sequence, if it were 0 then it'd leave the sequence alone.


1111101010011011000111011000001

Finally, the random seed would be taken and GUID's compaired to it by digit.  If the evenness or oddness matched between the first number of your GUID and the random seed, you'd end up on team 1.  If they didn't, team 2 was for you.  For each function it did of this it would add 1 to a sequence number called n and utilize the n'th number from the left.

Random seed: 1001101010011011000111011000001

If the seq number was 10, then it'd use

would be taken and if the first digit were even


1
212121

1 odd, 2 even; no match, team 2.

0
324568

0 even, 3 odd; no match, team 2.

0
221122

0 even, 2 even; match, team 1.


Upon doing this it would sum each teams playercount and compair; if one team had 2 more players than another team, it would assign matching functions to numbers, the numbers being set by the script itself, to determine who got moved.  For example:

1: least even
2: least odd
3: most even
4: most odd
5: highest guid
6: lowest guid
7: average guid
8: median guid
9: most digits/length
0: least digits/length

Finally, it would take those, the seq number, and the original seed number and begin performing matching operations on the team with the most players to determine who got switched.  If no match was found, or it tied, then it'd simply go onto the next number until the teams were even.

31135612344316712041316558280045
seq 8
num =2
2==least odd
switch the least odd player
seq + 1

If a MATCH occured

31135612344316712041316558280045
Seq 9
number=3
3==most even
switch the most even player
seq + 1

and so on, until the teams are even.

Simple, fast, and highly random.  If I could code I'd do it myself but I suck at programming.
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Undeference

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« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2006, 07:59:58 am »
I thought of a silly idea that would be rather pointless, but probably good practice for many people.
With g_maxGameClients set below sv_maxClients, forced random teams (i.e., the server places you on a team and you can't get off it -- if you didn't want to play on that server, you shouldn't have been on it), team switch cycling. Everyone switches teams at least once every 10 minutes of being on a team and after every 10 kills. In order to keep teams relatively balanced, players are exchanged based on their kills.

E.g., player P1 reaches 50 kills and the server puts him on a different team. The server moves players on the other team with the same number of kills to P1's previous team.

Obviously, if you build a crappy base just so that you can win the game when you switch teams, admins should kick you out.

The purpose would be to force people to work together and to deal with whatever circumstances they are put in. Players would be cycled, so after you get a certain number of kills or after you have been in the game for a certain amount of time, you would get put on the spectators (and after a little while longer, put back on some team or other).

Obviously this wouldn't be for most servers. Maybe just a couple clan servers or some such.
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TyrranzzX

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2006, 06:40:32 am »
Most players get discouraged when they can't enjoy the fruits of their labor.  Switching them mid-game is a bad idea; the best idea for a situation whereas one team has a certain fraction more players than another (if one team has 1/3rd of the total players in the game is a good formula) the server will force a nextgame situation.
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PHREAK

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« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2006, 08:26:53 am »
Just stop crying about stacked teams and you don't have to waste another minute codding a fix.

CU| tries to play on the same team simply because we know how we play and who is going to do what and when without frustration.
We also only do this against good players. Other times we split up intentionally to fight each other.
We don't go around noob servers and try to look important.
I do understand the issues with stacking but it's not a clan issue.
I've seen more non-clan good players stack against noobs then I have with clans.

So, get better, stop whining and get over it. It's just a game.
If you play video games for any other reason then entertainment and fun, you need to turn off your box and lock it up.
That shit ain't healthy.
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TyrranzzX

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« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2006, 09:27:25 am »
Hypocrite.
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PHREAK

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« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2006, 08:32:46 pm »
Hypocrite?

It is apparent that you don't seem to comprehend the meaning of the word so I'd advise you to refrain from using words you are not completely familiar with.
With that said, would you care to elaborate what part of my post makes me a "hypocrite"?
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Lava Croft

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We need default ream randomization badly.
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2006, 08:02:55 am »
Quote from: "PHREAK"
With that said, would you care to elaborate what part of my post makes me a "hypocrite"?

I think it's because CU has a 'c' and hypocrite has a 'c' too. Oh, and because TyrranzzX is dumb.

AKAnotu

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« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2006, 06:16:03 pm »
Quote from: "Lava Croft"
Quote from: "PHREAK"
With that said, would you care to elaborate what part of my post makes me a "hypocrite"?

I think it's because CU has a 'c' and hypocrite has a 'c' too. Oh, and because TyrranzzX is dumb.

i have to agree with that

|Nex|TrEmMa

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« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2006, 08:01:58 pm »
I say we all spectate and that way no game can ever be unbalanced because there will be no one playing.