Chompers UI mod on gamearena

[seraph]

a) Go fuck yourself Seffylight, you're a fucking moron.

b) :]

c) What a lot of people seem not to understand is that GameArena servers are owned, controlled and operated by GameArena. If you do not like us, go elsewhere. The dev team of Tremulous has our gratitude for making a good game, but they do not decide what constitutes cheating on our servers. We can make a rule that you must spam at least 5 lines a minute of "LOL FAG" and that's our right. People need to understand that you don't have control over what you made. That's why the GPL exists.

d) Unlike just about every other Tremulous server in existence, the GameArena servers are operated not by one person, but by a major telecommunications company. I am not the major shareholder of Telstra (the Australian Government is, at the moment) so I can't change Telstra policy. As a GameOp, it's my job and the job of the other ops to enforce the Code of Conduct. Think of it like being in the police - you don't make the law, you just enforce it.

Chompers was banned from GameArena because he admitted to breaking the Code of Conduct. The ban was completely justified by said Code. However, the ops have had a talk about the morality of banning someone for something undetectable, and we've offered Chompers his access back, provided he complies with a few non-ardous requests. We are able to do this because the Code of Conduct provides us with discretionary powers.

Reasonable or not, GameArena has the power to enforce whatever it wants. Lavacroft, jumping onto GA's forums and attacking a completely unrelated third party while telling us that we can't run our own server isn't going to score you any points. Having a huge postcount over here isn't going to make your opinions more important over there. And FYI, your postcount at GA is "2".

[n00b pl0x]

You permabanned a guy from your server because you thought he was using a modified hud.

Using your metaphor of you as a cop, this is how the above statement would read:

You gave a guy a life sentence because you thought he put on a custom pair of glasses.

Honestly, you are fucking retarded. Seffylight's post was beyond funny, and actually showed off your good side.

[vcxzet]

you know 1337

[n00b pl0x]

you know 1337

i know all

[seraph]

Rrrrrright. So, if I photoshop your face into the Goatse guy's cavity, that's "showing off your good side"?

Interesting values you've got over there in your little world, aren't they?

For starters, it wasn't MY ban.

Also, you fail to understand at all what I am actually saying here.

If the law said that you gave people lifesentences for wearing custom glasses, it would be the job of the police to do so. It would not be their job to say "hey wait i don't like that law; I'll only enforce laws that I like."

[Stof]

If the law said that you gave people lifesentences for wearing custom glasses, it would be the job of the police to do so. It would not be their job to say "hey wait i don't like that law; I'll only enforce laws that I like."

Yes it would, not as a cop but as a citizen!

[seraph]

So, you're only going to abide by rules you like?

Great.

Should I call the FBI now, or after you kill me for arguing?

[Stof]

It seems you cannot make the difference between unpopular rules and completly unjust and unjustified rules.

But I understand why you do not want to see such rule overturned. After all, you've banned someone based on that despite the fact that the rule itself is stupid. Overturning that decision would show to the world that you've ( you here doesn't necesary mean you as an individual ) made a mistake and some people don't like admiting to that.

Swallow your pride, admit that it was a mistake and get rid of that stupid rule is the best that can happen.

[n00b pl0x]

Rrrrrright. So, if I photoshop your face into the Goatse guy's cavity, that's "showing off your good side"?

Interesting values you've got over there in your little world, aren't they?

For starters, it wasn't MY ban.

Also, you fail to understand at all what I am actually saying here.

If the law said that you gave people lifesentences for wearing custom glasses, it would be the job of the police to do so. It would not be their job to say "hey wait i don't like that law; I'll only enforce laws that I like."

Why would you photoshop me onto a tooth? wtf would that do?

My little world is called Earth.

You as in retarded gamearena admins.

Even if someone was retarded enough to say wearing custom glasses is against the law, which is completely stupid in its own regard, you banned him because you THOUGHT he was wearing them. Not because you knew.

[FisherP]

you banned him because you THOUGHT he was wearing them. Not because you knew.

Is an admission of guilt proof enough. I ask because I'm curious, not because I flame.

[seraph]

Swallow your pride, admit that it was a mistake and get rid of that stupid rule is the best that can happen.

AHHHH MORON HASN'T READ MY POST.

I. CANNOT. CHANGE. GAME. ARENA. POLICY.

UNLIKE. YOUR. AD-HOC. SERVERS. GAMEARENA. IS. RUN. BY. A. MAJOR. CORPORATION. AND. I. AM. ONLY. EMPLOYED. TO. ENFORCE. THEIR. POLICIES.

ARE YOU FUCKING UNEMPLOYED OR WHAT?! If your boss (AND THAT IS WHAT TELSTRA IS, FOR ME) tells you to do something you DO IT.

Whining like a little bitch and flaming me for doing what I AM LEGALLY REQUIRED TO DO AS PART OF A SIGNED CONTRACT is not going to get you anywhere.

All the negative opinion in the world is not going to make me stop enforcing GameArena policy because I'd rather have you morons hate me than let myself get SUED FOR BREACH-OF-CONTRACT.

[David]

Doesn't your contract say something about acting like a jackass in an official capacity?
You giving you employers a bad images, and people have been fired for less.

Perhaps someone should file an official complaint about your trolling.
Or just ignore a server with stupid rules.

Maybe I should make a server where using the tyrant counts as cheating?
I know its a feature and all, but I just feel like banning it today.

[PwNz!]

The dev team of Tremulous has our gratitude for making a good game, but they do not decide what constitutes cheating on our servers.

Well if they dont, go play another game.

[seraph]

If you all could go and file a complaint about our behaivour (specifically enforcement of the rules) then we'd appreciate it.

Not only would you be getting us a pat on the back, you might even be complaining to someone who can actually change the things you dislike. Wow!

[Bajsefar]

Geesh, leave seraph alone, willya?
Yes, the rule is retarded but as seraph said: he cannot change it.
And really, i dont think this is like the most important thing in his life, so he wouldnt have thought it over and over and over and over and over

Well, i won't take any sides in this cause since i know neither the gamearena people, chompers or his hud, but i think you are being unfair towards Seraph.

[FisherP]

Well, i won't take any sides in this cause since i know neither the gamearena people, chompers or his hud, but i think you are being unfair towards Seraph.

Hear, Hear. Good on you Bajsefar, you seem to be one of the few mature posters. You get my vote.

I am also one of those supposed 'retarded' GameArena GameOps who most of you seem to flame without due concideration of the situation we have. Most of the posts flaming us are emotive and truly base, with few actual ligitimate arguments. Baj, anytime you want to join us on GameArena you are more than welcome. I respect maturity.

[chompers]

There are still some things I just don't get.

Firstly, if there is some specific policy that defines what constitutes a 'cheat' on GA, then please show it to me. How many times do I have to ask this? If that policy is not public and well defined, how is anyone supposed to adhere to it?

Next, on the one hand I see you guys (Seraph and FisherP) saying publicly here that you're just GameOps following orders, and that you are powerless to change the rules, and yet on the other hand you are willing to negotiate with me in private. Surely if you were powerless, then no negotiation could be entered into. The ridiculous hoops you've asked me to jump through in order to be unbanned, are they official GameArena policy handed down from on high as well?

And the hoops! To say publicly that you AREN'T in fact powerless at all, but instead stand alongside the GA admins as the final authority on what breaks the rules on GameAreana. Come on guys, which is it?

I will say publicly that I do not support cheating, I never have, nor have I ever done anything in game I would consider a cheat. And OK, it's fine if there is some special set of rules laid down for GameArena as to what constitues a cheat, but please, if that definition differs so radically from the common definition as to warrant a permanent ban without warning for behaviour that is considered elsewhere to be perfectly normal, then for the love of Timbo, the least you can do is show us the rules.

The rest of the hoops are outrageous, but you've asked for a public statement, so...

I will not state publicly that I do not use a custom HUD, and then go on to use one in secret anyway because it is undetectable. I will not lie for the sake of making it appear that you are in the right.

Nor will I remove access to files on my webserver from Australian IP's. You control a server, not the entire Country, and I am not the one who chose to attempt to enforce a rule which even you admit is unenforcable. That responsibility lies with you. If you must enforce it, then go ahead and say you're enforcing it, whether or not I am banned, you're still lying to yourselves, to the admins, and to the players.

The fact stands that the ability to cutomise HUDs within reason is already built into the game. Whatever your (apparently secret) policy is regarding HUDs, it was not written with Tremulous in mind, and one ounce of common sense applied with authority to this affair will sweep away the entire issue for good. Just reverse your decision.

You discussed this matter in private and came to a decision all by yourselves, but did any of you actually try out the HUD first? I mean, you are aware that keeping the crosshairs aligned with a player's head on screen and running toward them does not actually give you a headshot as dretch, right? Now that I think of it, maybe I should add a second dot, higher up just for that purpose, not for use on GameArena... of course.

I have yet to see whatever you sent me on the GA forum by the way. When you ban someone from your forums for being banned in game, they can't access their PMs either.

[FisherP]

I mean, you are aware that keeping the crosshairs aligned with a player's head on screen and running toward them does not actually give you a headshot as dretch, right?

Then why have the cross hairs there at all, and if Timbo didn't put the hairs there because they gave no advantage then why did u put them there? hmmmm?

It seems as if we are at a stalemate. You won't remove the cross-hairs, or access to it, and we can't let people play if we know they have them.

Who is being unreasonable? You for insisting on them even though they supposedly do not give an advantage, or us for following a policy which says that if there is any more information on the HUD which isn't on the default then it's a cheat?

Who is being more stubborn? If it's not really a big deal to have them, then why must people insist that they do have them? You are right on one thing though the policy was not written for Tremulous, but for all the games on GameArena. As GameOps we, as Seraph outlined, are legally obligued to follow those policies. You on the other hand are not legally obligued to keep the cross-hairs there. The solution is then quite simple if you know where I am heading.

[tuple]

It seems as if we are at a stalemate. You won't remove the cross-hairs, or access to it, and we can't let people play if we know they have them.

WOW!  You guys are complete tools!  YOU can block access to them by shutting down your server and black holeing the tremulous.net dns record for your customers.

http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3087&highlight=crosshair+console

edit:ok, after reading this thread on the game arena boards, I feel I should apologize for so clearly stating the obvious.

[kevlarman]

Who is being unreasonable? You for insisting on them even though they supposedly do not give an advantage, or us for following a policy which says that if there is any more information on the HUD which isn't on the default then it's a cheat?

Who is being more stubborn? If it's not really a big deal to have them, then why must people insist that they do have them? You are right on one thing though the policy was not written for Tremulous, but for all the games on GameArena. As GameOps we, as Seraph outlined, are legally obligued to follow those policies. You on the other hand are not legally obligued to keep the cross-hairs there. The solution is then quite simple if you know where I am heading.

what policies exactly are you following? unless you have written otherwise in a place where everyone can see it, one would assume that you would follow the devs' opinion on what is and isn't cheating. one of the earlier posts said timbo doesn't consider adding crosshairs to be cheating, since that doesn't seem to be enough for you...

Code: [Select]


<kevlarman> btw, what's your stand on alien crosshairs
<tjdubya> i don't think they're that valuable
<kevlarman> i agree
<kevlarman> but what do you think about all the people who call it cheating
<tjdubya> whiners
<tjdubya> i guess technically it is kind of cheating in theory just because they're using a modified client on a pure server
<tjdubya> ends == insignificant
<tjdubya> means == questionable
<tjdubya> should fix the client engine so it honors sv_pure there
<kevlarman> it's a cvar that you are allowed to change though
<kevlarman> it would have been extremely easy to mark it CVAR_CHEAT
<tjdubya> oh really?
<kevlarman> yeah
<tjdubya> i thought they had to modify ui files
<kevlarman> ui_hudfiles
<kevlarman> no
<tjdubya> i see
<kevlarman> they change ui_hudfiles to point to a file outside the pk3's
<tjdubya> then i don't see it as cheating at all


I don't think anyone has any reason to be upset if other players are using a crosshair as a dretch.

I'll even poke Timbo about having it as an option in the menu for the next patch.

Aliens should be getting official crosshairs in the next version so this shouldn't be an issue.

[FisherP]

One thing I've learned... It's useless trying to talk to someone who won't listen

[seraph]

And I bet you wish you'd realised that a page ago, FIsherP.

Chompers, we have gone WAY out of our way for you on this. If the admins decided to do a check on what's happening, we could conceivably be in trouble for offering you this help.

If you don't want to be involved, fine. I'm not going to bother any further. FisherP and I had to do a LOT of arguing to make that PM official.

We didn't ask you for anything ridiculous. As I said, what is and isn't allowable on a server is the concern and area of responsibility of the administrators of that server, no-one else. We don't want every moron we ban running over here to see if he can get Timbo or TJW to overrule us on a ban. So we asked you to publicly state what I consider to be the bloody obvious.

As for the ban on downloads, that's not exactly a big deal for you. Consider: GameArena is IT if you want to play Trem in Australia. Anyone downloading your UI from Australia is doing it in order to use it on GameArena servers. We aren't allowed to let you use that UI. The sole and only reason that we were able to offer you your place back was that we rationalised that stopping others from cheating is more important than banning one person for it. And before you start, GameArena considers use of your UI cheating. I may not. TremDev may not. Fisher may not. Rebound may not. But GameArena does, and that's all there is to it. We do not want people cheating. If that's defined as cheating, that's the end of the argument as far as GameArena servers are concerned.

Consider: We were offering you (in the eyes of Telstra, an admitted cheater) immunity from ban if you co-operated. That's a big deal, mate.

If you don't want to accept our offer, that's your right. I've gone out of my way to help you on someone else's ban. I got up early in order to argue with people senior to me for you. Way to be grateful, mate.

Nobody from GameArena is going to waste any more time on this. We do not need to negotiate with you. We do not need your approval.

EDIT: Sure, I'll go start writing an offical Rules post. So that if you decide to accept our offer you don't get caught out again.

[Stof]

Talking to seraph and FisherP here. Who else is better placed than YOU to convey to the GameArena owners the fact that the trem community as a whole ( or nearly ) does not consider changing the HUD as cheating? Does the one making that policy ever played Tremulous?

[Kaleo]

Bad admins on Terrible servers FTW!

cprebound is an awsome admin!

[tuple]

Seraph and FisherP,
Get off your high horse.  If you are corporate tools with no authority to make change and can only act as an official mouthpiece then go pollute someone else's boards with you utter crap.  We don't give a flying shit that you woke up early and (oh my god!) had an argument with your superiors.

Your tone is offensive at BEST and the arrogance makes it even more annoying to read your worthless repeat of someone elses rules.  In the future, just post a link to the rules page and SHUT THE HELL UP.

As for the ban on downloads, that's not exactly a big deal for you. Consider: GameArena is IT if you want to play Trem in Australia. Anyone downloading your UI from Australia is doing it in order to use it on GameArena servers. We aren't allowed to let you use that UI. The sole and only reason that we were able to offer you your place back was that we rationalised that stopping others from cheating is more important than banning one person for it.

Seriously, how much more of a tool could you be?  If someone that I work for actually had the nerve to tell me to try and strongarm someone else into what they should offer on their own server, I'd tell my employer to do it themselves.

You actually tried to tell him what he could host on his own server?  Seriously, are you that stupid?  It is SOOOOO nonsensical that you can only be trying to strongarm him so you (your corporation, you don't seem to have self determination) will save face and maintain the appearance of doing what is rule-abiding regardless of how silly and utterly pointless it is.

Seriously, if you have no control or authority over the situation just post a link to the appropriate site where the rules are and quit talking.  You have nothing else to say and talking to you is of no benefit to anyone, so no longer present us with the illusion that it is.

[chompers]

You're right in thinking I'm stubborn Fisher, but I have been listening to you. What I'm hearing from you just appalls me, so I can see why you'd think I was unreasonable even though I've done my utmost to reason with you.

You (well, rebound) ban me from GA servers, so I registered on GA forums. You (well, rebound again) lock the thread which was set up for rational discussion there, delete a post because one line in it referenced a thread locking, then ban me from your forums altogether, for "avoiding another ban?"  Then you (Seraph) say you want a public statement from me supporting the authority which you claim not to have. To top it all, when I have no other avenue for discourse but these forums, you go on to say you don't want people "running to Timbo" to overturn a ban?

You call me an admitted cheater, but refuse to show me the rule I am breaking, I'm starting to doubt it even exists. Also you refuse to show me where I 'admitted' it, please correct me if I am wrong, but the only place I am aware of that I 'admitted' to even using the HUD was here in this forum, in the very same thread where you (FisherP) came along months later and said you were OK with it.

So, first I'm told it's all OK by FisherP in a thread here, then I'm banned out of the blue by rebound, then I'm told what FisherP said was not his "official stance", then I'm told by FisherP it's mostly OK, I just need to lose the crosshairs and keep my head down, then I'm told by Seraph I can use whatever I want, if I just say that I don't use any custom HUD at all.

And I'm unreasonable?

When your rules remain undisclosed, when they change every time you try to voice them, how do you expect me to comply? And if I do roll over and comply with the rule of the moment, what's next? Do you honestly think under those conditions that I would last 5 minutes on a server without being banned by rebound again for something equally as trivial as a static dot on my screen? Come on, you must know the guy. I've seen a 200 pinger on GA save his team from losing by spawning as ckit and hiding from my goon between the last three turrets, then rebound gets back to base and bans the guy for rebuilding 'turret, turret, armory' when rebound wanted 'armory turret, turret'. This is who you have as a GameOp, this is whose decision you are endorsing.

I'm done with this too, and you're right, at the moment GameArena is all there is if you want to play Trem in Australia, too bad for me, I guess, I am done with tremulous for a while. The only time you will see me on GA is if I drop in to let people know about a new server. In the meantime please do us all a favour, go and write down your rules which you say you can't set.

[Arch_Enemy]

Hey Chompers m8, tk has taken the pass off the server so u and jimmy are welcome on our server, since rebound decided to ban silver_wolf we will try to make our server abit more active

[chompers]

Awesome, thanks Arch, my ping to TK is roughly the same as it is to GA.

Anyway, to answer your question FisherP, I prefer crosshair because I am used to it in an FPS, I'm far more comfortable with it than without it. When I am hugging the wall as a dretch in Tremor, it helps to judge my heading and saves me getting momentarily snagged on the supports that stick out from the wall. When I jump from one wall to another it helps me guage where I will land. When I pounce a goon it helps me judge the height and distance. And yes, in a certain, limited situation when I jump a dretch past a human and face sideways so that my bite passes across their bounding box at head height, it helps me to judge what is level and exactly where I am in relation to the apex of the jump. It is extremely useful, but not for the reasons you think. Try it out yourself, you'll see exactly how useful it is and why it is in no way a cheat.

[DarkRogue]

You call me an admitted cheater, but refuse to show me the rule I am breaking, I'm starting to doubt it even exists. Also you refuse to show me where I 'admitted' it, please correct me if I am wrong, but the only place I am aware of that I 'admitted' to even using the HUD was here in this forum, in the very same thread where you (FisherP) came along months later and said you were OK with it.

Read back through seraphs posts, he points out that GameArena has the stance anything not included in the DEFAULT options for information presented to the user is considered a cheat.

ie. without your ui mod there is no way in trem 1.1.0 to turn on crosshairs for all the other aliens save the few that have it standard.


However I would like to point out while your modification is a minor one that the Trem Devs agree does nothing excessive to help a client the GA company might be looking at it from the stance of 'better to ban the lot of possibilities than risk letting in the bad', in the case of UI mods while alien crosshair is a joke, one has to admit the human persistent radar HUD is an extreme advantage BUT using the whole 'Q3 set it up so personal UI huds could be used so it's not a cheat' opens the door for the use of ANY hud including the vastly unfair radar UI for humans.


Not taking sides on this issue just pointing out a tidbit of information that seems to have been over looked in the shit flinging.

[Stof]

However I would like to point out while your modification is a minor one that the Trem Devs agree does nothing excessive to help a client the GA company might be looking at it from the stance of 'better to ban the lot of possibilities than risk letting in the bad', in the case of UI mods while alien crosshair is a joke, one has to admit the human persistent radar HUD is an extreme advantage BUT using the whole 'Q3 set it up so personal UI huds could be used so it's not a cheat' opens the door for the use of ANY hud including the vastly unfair radar UI for humans.


Not taking sides on this issue just pointing out a tidbit of information that seems to have been over looked in the shit flinging.

I've looked at the custom menu things and the game source code, and there is no way to make the radar always display. In fact, in the official hud the radar is always displayed, it's just that the cgame vm will render nothing on it unless you have the helmet.

Do not confuse a simple HUD change with some advanced cheating that requires hacking pk3 files and pure server check.