Author Topic: "Avenger"'s builds  (Read 64306 times)

Undeference

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« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2007, 06:26:22 pm »
Quote from: "bazuka_poo"
Your build timer is screwed up.
I am running this on _____|COM|AoD|
How so?
Quote from: "FooBar"
So, this patch doesn't include g_markDeconstruct because that requires client-side changes?
It would be trivial to make it technically compatible without any client side changes. But it would not be compatible with users, for one thing. There is a reason for the client side markers.
Quote from: "FooBar"
Did you specifically change the Makefile so that it would not make client-side qvms
Yes. It won't be that way in the next version though.
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Rawr

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« Reply #61 on: March 01, 2007, 02:16:41 am »
Yesterday, when I installed it, it was doing instantaneous building.
But today, it was fixed.

Also, your share is broken.

!map shouldn't default to level 2.
img]http://dvclan.org/statsig/statsig.php/3826/4.jpg[/img]

Undeference

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« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2007, 07:26:05 pm »
Quote from: "bazuka_poo"
Yesterday, when I installed it, it was doing instantaneous building.
But today, it was fixed.
Yesterday you had cheats enabled. Today you don't.
Quote from: "bazuka_poo"
Also, your share is broken.
Haha, good one!
Quote from: "bazuka_poo"
!map shouldn't default to level 2.
It doesn't.
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FooBar

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« Reply #63 on: March 01, 2007, 09:32:03 pm »
Quote from: "bazooka_poo"
Also, your share is broken.

Quote from: "Undeference"
Haha, good one!

Yup, I'm pretty sure that Undeference has never included share (or donate) in his builds.  Although everyone takes it for granted nowadays, we should remember that share is NOT currently in SVN at all.  I don't know whether the devs plan on putting it in 1.2 or not.  Anybody know?

Rawr

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« Reply #64 on: March 01, 2007, 10:10:54 pm »
Quote from: FooBar
Quote from: "bazooka_poo"
Also, your share is broken.

Quote from: "Undeference"
Haha, good one!


Its in the cvars.
img]http://dvclan.org/statsig/statsig.php/3826/4.jpg[/img]

Undeference

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« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2007, 07:36:19 pm »
I was bored, so I made a new qvm. No more Makefile hack. (I don't recommend compiling clients, client qvms, or tremded, without some other changes as well.)

This has Risujin's blaster/ckit reload thing, since he was so adamant about it. It also has a new feature that is more fair than share or donate (and, yes, even steal) called take.
/take credits will give you up to credits from your teammates. How many you get and whether you are eligible to get any is based on the value of the cvar g_takeRatio. 0 effectively disables the feature and 1 lets you take up to 2000 credits or 9 evolution points from teammates who have that many. I recommend a value between 0.2 and 0.6.
Try it out.

It also has Wolfwings's patch for tremstats.
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Paradox

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« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2007, 09:38:47 pm »
Does the new one have share and donate?

And can take be limited to a specific admin class?

∧OMG ENTROPY∧

Undeference

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« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2007, 10:00:48 pm »
Quote
Does the new one have share and donate?
No, but it has take which accomplishes the same thing. The difference is pretty much just the name, but take is a little more complicated.

Quote
And can take be limited to a specific admin class?
Why would you want that? Isn't that kind of like only letting an admin use noclip or god (or even buy, sell, or class) when no one else can, i.e., unfair?
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Plague Bringer

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« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2007, 10:07:36 pm »
Players who are untrusted could abuse /take, if /take and /share were both added to the SVN, trusted players (with a very low admin level) could /take, and unnameds or non-regulars would have to ask for credits.
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Undeference

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« Reply #69 on: March 22, 2007, 04:29:46 am »
Quote
Players who are untrusted could abuse /take

Correction, any players can use take part of the time. Explain how it can be abused and how adding share fixes the purported problem...

(Also, I'm pretty sure share has about as much chance of getting in svn as take or steal do, and that is to say absolutely none at all.)

Edit:
Let me explain how take works before you criticize it based solely on its name.
A player uses "/take #" and gets up to that many credits, based on g_takeRatio, the amount specified, and the "excess" credits on that team. If the player using take has g_takeRatio*max or more credits, they will get nothing. They can only take up to g_takeRatio*max credits. They will only get credits from players with g_takeRatio*max or more credits. They might not get the specified amount.

The higher g_takeRatio is, the more credits you can get, but the less likely there is anyone who can give. (But the people who can give, have more money, so it evens out.) The lower g_takeRatio is, the fewer credits you must have before you can get any.
If you have more than 2 players on your team and g_takeRatio is set reasonably, your teammates will probably not even notice if you use take (and you probably won't notice when they do).

With share, some alien teams will exploit the fact that dragoons are overpowered (when compared with the average human's aptitude for dealing with them) without doing any work. Take, on the other hand, requires that at least someone does some work, and limits the effectiveness of such unfair tactics. (In other words, if you join a game late, you might be able to get a dragoon or marauder right away, but you probably won't be able to do that at the start of a game.)
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Risujin

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« Reply #70 on: March 22, 2007, 02:10:20 pm »
Quote from: "Undeference"
With share, some alien teams will exploit the fact that dragoons are overpowered (when compared with the average human's aptitude for dealing with them) without doing any work. Take, on the other hand, requires that at least someone does some work, and limits the effectiveness of such unfair tactics. (In other words, if you join a game late, you might be able to get a dragoon or marauder right away, but you probably won't be able to do that at the start of a game.)

\take does not address this issue. You can have a 9 evo'd dragoon running around and he will be a prime target for getting his credits \taken away.

Also \take harms team harmony in a way \share doesn't. \share is a gift, a donation -- you are doing what you want with your money, when you want. \take, on the other hand, is outright Robin Hood style theft. What will basically happen is no one will be able to have more money than the take threshold, ever, as everyone will have \take 9999 bound and be tapping it every few seconds. I can hear the cries of "WTF happen to my evos!!!" already...

Furthermore, \take doesn't enable the same kind of gameplay. A team of 5, where everyone has one evo, cannot assemble a Tyrant with \take, but can with \share.

If you are concerned with people running about with full credits, a better feature would be spill-over. After 2000 credits, or 9 evos, further money will go to your teammates or into BPS etc.

Undeference

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« Reply #71 on: March 22, 2007, 04:52:18 pm »
Quote
\take does not address this issue. You can have a 9 evo'd dragoon running around and he will be a prime target for getting his credits \taken away.
Your example defeats your argument. You have a rich dragoon running around who could only potentially benefit from another 3 evolution points. Is it good that there is a dragoon with 9 evolution points? The very fact that it is a dragoon running around with 9 evolution points implies it is not planning on evolving immediately (and even if it were it would not need those points).
It is probably going around kill whoring and those extra evolution points its teammates could use are going to complete waste. But they could just use take...

You are portraying this as though it targets a single player. It does not. It distributes the burden fairly evenly for everyone who can afford it (for certain definitions of "afford").

Quote
Also \take harms team harmony in a way \share doesn't. \share is a gift, a donation -- you are doing what you want with your money, when you want. \take, on the other hand, is outright Robin Hood style theft.
Rich people tend to give expensive gifts they don't need. This is not allowed in Tremulous even with share. But you are right about this being the Robin Hood patch since it takes from the rich and gives to the needy.

Quote
What will basically happen is no one will be able to have more money than the take threshold, ever, as everyone will have \take 9999 bound and be tapping it every few seconds. I can hear the cries of "WTF happen to my evos!!!" already...
You are assuming that someone will take some money, buy equipment, feed, rinse and repeat, and their teammates will never catch on. You are assuming that this accounts for 90% or more of the Tremulous players. Even if this were to happen, which I doubt, you could always make a bind like "take 70; buy larmour" and never worry about carrying spare cash.
Also, remember that that threshold is configurable with g_takeRatio. The point would usually be to have that at a point low enough that no one can drain too much, but high enough so that money taken is usable.

Quote
Furthermore, \take doesn't enable the same kind of gameplay. A team of 5, where everyone has one evo, cannot assemble a Tyrant with \take, but can with \share.
Tremulous is a team game, not a typical Rambo kill-em-all shooter. If that team were capable of working as such, they would not need to pool their money to get a big bad beastie.

Quote
If you are concerned with people running about with full credits, a better feature would be spill-over. After 2000 credits, or 9 evos, further money will go to your teammates or into BPS etc.
That relies on people getting the full amount of credits allowed, which should not happen typically (unless someone is going out kill whoring and is not really supporting their team in any way). Take let's them help their team, willing or no.

At a point, you have to question sharing / donating / pooling points. Players have credits, not teams. Why is this? I don't think Tremulous was designed with socialism in mind.


Edit:
I don't mean to give the impression that I'm so arrogant I actually believe everything I do is perfect. The fact is that, of all the perfectly valid complaints one could have with take (all of which are just how I implemented it, part of why I want it tested out), the things brought up are least problematic. If these things actually effect take, then I screwed something up, but most of them effect it less than the supposedly better alternatives.
This is a different approach to solve problems with things designed to solve non-problems. I don't know how well it will accomplish that because everyone is so stuck up on share that they won't even try it.
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Plague Bringer

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« Reply #72 on: March 22, 2007, 08:35:26 pm »
Okay, so if you have more then the /take threshold, you can't /take any more? What if the threshold was 100, you're about to grab that luci and suddenly you get stolen from? Atleast let players individually set their /take thresholds or set wheather or no they'll allow players to /take from them. There's enough arguing within the human team already, I don't want to hear idiots running around saying "who the FUCK stole my credits?! Also, I wouldn't want unnameds or feeders running around with my credits at S3.
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Undeference

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« Reply #73 on: March 23, 2007, 09:06:58 am »
Answer me this: how often are you actually in trouble where you need more credits to do what you want? My guess is either all the time (in which case take can help you) or not very often (in which case take doesn't hurt you).

If you just need an extra 100 credits for that luci, kill a dretch. If g_takeRatio is set appropriately and you have more than 2 players on your team, (assuming they aren't all feeders) there shouldn't be a problem. Fortunately, there are usually at least as many campers as there are feeders.

Again, this is a hypothetical situation that is not as common as you make it sound. It's possible that take makes it happen more often or entirely eliminates that situation. There hasn't been enough play testing to know what the problems are and how best to fix them. And there won't be if people keep getting dissuaded by hypothetical situations that may or may not occur.
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Stof

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« Reply #74 on: March 23, 2007, 11:41:21 am »
All that discussion is moot. Both give and take suck :o Tremulous wasn't meant for players to share money between them.
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Undeference

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« Reply #75 on: March 23, 2007, 11:56:27 am »
s/give/share/ - that's the name of the command, if it isn't what it does.

I agree completely. Other people :roll: don't.
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Plague Bringer

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« Reply #76 on: March 23, 2007, 12:21:51 pm »
share is good...but noone says when they need credits and when they do everyone ignores them....it's basically obsolete except for clans playing a public game.
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David

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« Reply #77 on: March 23, 2007, 12:53:19 pm »
Donate is good, I use it when I have 2000 creds / 9 evo.
Dont get rid of share.
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Seffylight

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« Reply #78 on: March 23, 2007, 02:27:54 pm »
I dislike share, take, steal, and any other possible incarnation of the same set of ideas. The only thing I would possibly be in favor of is a overflow system, wherein someone with maxed creds kills something, and the creds it would get go to the person with the lowest creds on their team at the time.
Stop it. Seriously.

Stof

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« Reply #79 on: March 23, 2007, 03:22:53 pm »
Quote from: "David"
Donate is good, I use it when I have 2000 creds / 9 evo.
Dont get rid of share.

Yes, get rid of share. It's not because YOU are good that your whole team should be able to get top quality equipment/evos. If you want that, make it so that they get the kill and stop kill hoarding the humans with your goon/tyrant.
urphy's rules of combat
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18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Risujin

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« Reply #80 on: March 23, 2007, 04:03:02 pm »
Quote from: "Undeference"
If you just need an extra 100 credits for that luci, kill a dretch.

This is why Tremulous isn't supposed to need a credit sharing command, right? No matter the state of the game, a naked human is supposed to somehow be able to find and kill a dretch at leisure, right? Wrong, sir!

At S3 aliens, at least one tyrant will be hanging out at every enterance. Not necessarilly kill whoring (though often the case), but often just waiting to attack again. The problem is, that tyrant is as close to the base as he can get. Any dretch on his team can't get closer without getting shot, so, there are no dretches to shoot unless you get past the tyrant. What naked human ever gets past a tyrant? There is an analogous case with humans and a luci bsuit. Dretches can't get out of their base without getting caught in luci spam.

The case for credit sharing, or a communcal bank which accepts overflows or donations, is that it is in your interest as a player to give money to your teammates. Why? Because if they are larger or have more gear, they won't feed. This is not equivalent to leaving the kills to your teammates. In S3 vs S3, if you are the last chainsuit left, you may be the only one left capable of making kills (goons, tyrants, etc).

Oh and \take fails because it only takes one player to bind \take 9999 and buy, die, rinse, and repeat to drain all the \take cash rendering a legitimate \take useless for all other players.

Warrior

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« Reply #81 on: March 23, 2007, 05:35:26 pm »
At least \take will need an anti-spam/flood system or all players will stuck with the minimum amount they can have according to the g_takeRatio variable.

Quote from: "Seffylight"
The only thing I would possibly be in favor of is a overflow system, wherein someone with maxed creds kills something, and the creds it would get go to the person with the lowest creds on their team at the time.

\donate is the best.

\share + noobs = unplayable match: "Give me evos! Give me creds!!"....."UnnamedPlayer was chomped by Warrior's dragoon".
In this case, players will depend on sharing and won't play well (except for good players that will be the credits/evos source).

\take + g_takeRatio 0.2 + feeders = $400 max credits for humans as the feeders will use \take all time.
Tremulous is getting every time more new players and this is becoming true:
Quote from: "Undeference"
You are assuming that this accounts for 90% or more of the Tremulous players


Note: I don't have tested the \take in a real game yet.

Undeference

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« Reply #82 on: March 23, 2007, 05:39:27 pm »
Quote
Oh and \take fails because it only takes one player to bind \take 9999 and buy, die, rinse, and repeat to drain all the \take cash rendering a legitimate \take useless for all other players.
That is the case only if this feeder is capable of feeding faster than the team is capable of getting kills and this feeder does this repeatedly without the other members of the team doing anything about it.

By the same logic, construction kits are bad because it is possible for someone to deconstruct the reactor. The difference is that deconstructing the reactor is immediate and has direct negative results. What you described is a process that takes time and can be prevented, and its only negative effect is that someone who wants to buy equipment with money they didn't earn will have to wait.

Oh and /share fails because you can't give a teammate the maximum number of credits if you don't have them. Oh boo hoo! Go do something constructive like playing in traffic instead of wasting my time with bullshit like this. So you have concerns about this and what do you do? Without even using it in actual game play, you immediately claim it doesn't work based on an unrealistic hypothetical situation.


Quote
At least \take will need an anti-spam/flood system or all players will stuck with the minimum amount they can have according to the g_takeRatio variable.
This is prevented by the fact that a player cannot use take if they have at least their threshold of credits.

Quote
Note: I don't have tested the \take in a real game yet.
At least someone has indicated an interest in play testing instead of harassing me with fallacious arguments.
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David

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« Reply #83 on: March 23, 2007, 06:04:55 pm »
Quote from: "Undeference"
Quote
Oh and \take fails because it only takes one player to bind \take 9999 and buy, die, rinse, and repeat to drain all the \take cash rendering a legitimate \take useless for all other players.
That is the case only if this feeder is capable of feeding faster than the team is capable of getting kills and this feeder does this repeatedly without the other members of the team doing anything about it.


So what can we do about it?
Some noob is being a moron, what can we do? TK him? kick him?  we need a vote noob that kills the players game and boots up there browser on the manual.
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I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.

Undeference

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« Reply #84 on: March 23, 2007, 06:32:51 pm »
Since this noob has to know something about take, it's more likely an intentional feeder than a newbie. I was thinking more along the lines of stab them in the face.
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Plague Bringer

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« Reply #85 on: March 23, 2007, 09:01:51 pm »
I showed up on |SST| near the end of a game where humans were S3 and it took me a good 15 minutes to grab a luci while spamming Give Me Credits Or I'll Rape You When You Sleep!!!

Maybe /take is a good idea, unfortunately, it'll be pretty useless with a low value for take. Perhaps you should /take that much from everyone on your team?
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Stof

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« Reply #86 on: March 23, 2007, 10:10:01 pm »
Quote from: "Undeference"
Quote
Oh and \take fails because it only takes one player to bind \take 9999 and buy, die, rinse, and repeat to drain all the \take cash rendering a legitimate \take useless for all other players.
That is the case only if this feeder is capable of feeding faster than the team is capable of getting kills and this feeder does this repeatedly without the other members of the team doing anything about it.

I see a great potential with that one with a bind. /take 200, /buy grenade, /itemact grenade. Rinse and repeat as necessary :)
urphy's rules of combat
8 ) Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.
18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Plague Bringer

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« Reply #87 on: March 23, 2007, 10:44:49 pm »
you guys are missing the point!
/take will take a certain amount of credits, set by the server.
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Undeference

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« Reply #88 on: March 23, 2007, 11:09:23 pm »
Quote from: "Stof"

I see a great potential with that one with a bind. /take 200, /buy grenade, /itemact grenade. Rinse and repeat as necessary :)
Damnit :evil:
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Risujin

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« Reply #89 on: March 23, 2007, 11:54:16 pm »
Quote from: "David"
So what can we do about it?
Some noob is being a moron, what can we do? TK him? kick him?  we need a vote noob that kills the players game and boots up there browser on the manual.

TK him? Kick him? What are you talking about? You don't even know who it is! xD