Brotherhood's TSM (Tremulous Server Manager) - Pre-release

[Tyaedalis]

Why is it such a bad idea?

[Brotherhood]

Very bad idea.
If un/baning is not done via rcon/console or ingame, it will only serve to fuck up the admin.dat.

Why is it such a bad idea?

It's not. I never intended for TSM to completely replace the console. In fact, I was going to have TSM reject changes to admin.dat unless the server is not running (havn't got to it yet)

not if you restart the server  
anyway there is no way to port it to other platform( autoit is so platform dependent )
so this will stay as another bullshit release

You know, it's hard to make everyone happy. Need I remind you that TSM is mostly for the "noobs" so they can run servers. Most of the "noobs" will be running windows (Why run a server on win when you can on linux?). TSM has no built in mod support (yet) and is missing a few other advanced features so it's not really for the hardcore server ppl anyways.

Just my two cents

~ Brotherhood

[Caveman]

If you make it for the noobs, then there is NO way you can implement a managing system for the bans.
As per your statement the server has to be shut off for that, and how should noobs then be able to ban anyone?

Why is it baaaad to modify the admin.dat when the server is running?
Because admin.dat get read once on mapload and written when a map is finished, all changes done to it by any 3rd party will be discarded at best, at worst the server crashes.

[Brotherhood]

If you make it for the noobs, then there is NO way you can implement a managing system for the bans.
As per your statement the server has to be shut off for that, and how should noobs then be able to ban anyone?

Why is it baaaad to modify the admin.dat when the server is running?
Because admin.dat get read once on mapload and written when a map is finished, all changes done to it by any 3rd party will be discarded at best, at worst the server crashes.

Caveman you misunderstand the whole reason I made this. I made TSM to be an easy way to "set up" your server BEFORE you start it. If you have to change these settings after you already start the server then thats bad management on your part. I know how tremulous handles it's files. Thats why you should make any changes BEFORE you start the server. Otherwise use admin commands in the console. TSM isn't made to do EVERYTHING for you. It's just a helper tool.

[Caveman]

Right. And YOU said you wanted to include

Add/Delete/Modify banned players on your server

.
And that is nothing you do BEFORE you start a server.

So make up your mind .)

Either a tool to set up the server, or a tool to administer a server.

And I did not explain to you the filemanagement, I did that for Tyaedalis...

[benmachine]

at worst the server crashes.

Would just like to mention that this never happens: if it does, it's certainly a bug with Tremulous and should be fixed.

[Suicidal]

at worst the server crashes.

Would just like to mention that this never happens: if it does, it's certainly a bug with Tremulous and should be fixed.

he means it may fail to start
if it contains some strange chars in some fields :/ dunno

[Brotherhood]

Right. And YOU said you wanted to include

Add/Delete/Modify banned players on your server

.
And that is nothing you do BEFORE you start a server.

Yes it is. Let me give you an example: Lets say once a week you clean out all the bans and level 1 admins from your server. It's easier to do this in TSM before you start the server than after via console.

Also, I have another reason for the ban list. TSM loads all the [level], [admin], and [ban] sections into memory. Since I already had it in memory, I figured I might as well do something with it. Thats why the banned tab wasn't part of my original plan. It was just added in to be more complete.

My opinion of TSM hasn't changed. It's a tool set up and manage server settings before you start it.

Now can we please stop arguing about this. It's getting us nowhere

~ Brotherhood

[Caveman]

Edit:
K K K, as soon as you tell us how you plan on adding a ban, as you described

Edit2:
I was talking about 2 writing process at the same time, but nvm that

[Brotherhood]

Nope, I meant exactly what I wrote .)
If the file is locked by any 3rd party app tremed will crash.
I'd be really surprised if it wont.

And if it is not locked and 2 writing process are active at the same time, prolly both processes will go gaga.

Ugh ... there is a reason why admin.dat is loaded into memory! It opens, loads, and releases admin.dat before TSM's window is even created. It does NOT lock up admin.dat to any extent.

EDIT:
Adding a ban?

If you have someones GUID, or lets say their IP, it's a piece of cake. I know some servers block whole IP subnets. You don't have to know an actual player to block them. How you think server owners share thier list of bans with other servers?

[Caveman]

Brotherhood, don't get me started on syncing several game-servers, I have been doing that for several years now

Going into the subject why one does NOT ban by subnet or even IP (hint: dynamic IPs) to hit a lone player and why one does NOT sync bans by guid would be too much for this thread. Look up the different topics about it here.

And YES you do have actually and positively to identify a player to block him/her.

[Brotherhood]

Brotherhood, don't get me started on syncing several game-servers, I have been doing that for several years now

Going into the subject why one does NOT ban by subnet or even IP (hint: dynamic IPs) to hit a lone player and why one does NOT sync bans by guid would be too much for this thread. Look up the different topics about it here.

And YES you do have actually and positively to identify a player to block him/her.

I really don't understand why you care so much about this. Just becuase you don't have a use for something doesn't mean no one else does either! WHY did I add the banned tab?

1. I had it already set up nicely in memory
2. I had an easy framework to copy from the Admin Config tab
3. I thought "What the hell, I already have everything I need, might as well do something with it"

The banned players tab does not ONLY add banned players. In fact, the first version of it could only modify the CURRENT banned players info (time, reason, etc). The add function was just implemented to make it more complete in case that one time you need it, you have it. Not every single function of a application has to be ultimately usefull.

And funny you mentioned "Syncing Several Game Servers". That was my next idea for TSM. TSM Remote Control (over TCP/IP), alowing you to have one master TSM and then each server run a child TSM that updates it's own configuration settings through the main server  

[benmachine]

I'm going to reiterate my point that a bad admin.dat should not be able to crash a server. At worst, !readconfig will fail and no admins or bans will be loaded - the game will continue as normal regardless.

Caveman, if you have any counter-examples I'd be interested to hear from you.

[Caveman]

ben, i was not talking about reading a bad admin.dat. I agree with you on that.

I was talking about the case where 2 processes try to write simultaniously.

[Brotherhood]

ben, i was not talking about reading a bad admin.dat. I agree with you on that.

I was talking about the case where 2 processes try to write simultaniously.

Sorry, but thats impossible becuase TSM won't alow you to save Admin.dat while the server is running. And even if it did, it opens, writes, and releases the file in a few miliseconds. The chances of both the server and TSM writing at the same time would be VERY small because it closes all file handels almost instantly. I do see where your concern is coming from, but I have already taken care of the problem.

EDIT: I did a test to see exacly how much time it takes to save admin.dat
Screen Shot

The range was about 1.2 to 3.5 miliseconds to save the file.

[Undeference]

are you timing it with maximum number of everything in admin.dat and is a !readconfig sent immediately/at all? i haven't actually been able to use it and haven't really been interested enough (sorry) to follow all of the discussion or install it on a windows system, so ignore me if what i say is irrelevant

[Brotherhood]

are you timing it with maximum number of everything in admin.dat and is a !readconfig sent immediately/at all? i haven't actually been able to use it and haven't really been interested enough (sorry) to follow all of the discussion or install it on a windows system, so ignore me if what i say is irrelevant

To write about an admin.dat with 20 admins and 5 admin levels, it's about 4 miliseconds (on my machine). 1.2 milisecons for 5 admins, 5 admin levels. TSM is completely stand alone when it comes to reading/writing admin.dat. It uses standard AutoIt3 file I/O to handle files. That answer your question?

EDIT: It's not a big deal you havn't tried it yet. I know many people would rather not use Windows. But, what can I do? I don't know any cross-platform languages well enough to do the same thing. If anyone is interested, I'll post the current source code so you can see if it's possible to at least convert some of the coding concepts.

[Caveman]

"7 levels, 832 admins, 14 bans" is what our admin.dat is about.
I guess other server have about the same numbers.
And that is w/o any !command.

Better leave the out the complete code for fooling with admin.dat and write it new from scratch, using rcon.

[Brotherhood]

"7 levels, 832 admins, 14 bans" is what our admin.dat is about.
I guess other server have about the same numbers.
And that is w/o any !command.

Better leave the out the complete code for fooling with admin.dat and write it new from scratch, using rcon.

I just did a test that generated:

7 admin levels

2000 admins

1000 bans

Came up with 101.608 miliseconds. 26.204 with the numbers you gave me. 1/40th of a second is plenty fast enough for practical purposes. The only downside is it takes about 1 minute for TSM to load when it's first started (has to parse, and create all the GUI controls for admin.dat). After that, TSM runs as smoothly as ever. I got those numbers on a standard home PC, 2 gigahertz single core processor.

EDIT: Removed the offensive comments  :-?

[Caveman]

sheesh, dude, get a grip.
I have not even started bashing you and you get all upset that I call the idea of any prog editing the admin.dat a bad idea.

If you get all uppity and think it's personal if someone does not agree with you or your progs, you'd best stop proging right now and never ever set another foot out of the door.

[Brotherhood]

sheesh, dude, get a grip.
I have not even started bashing you and you get all upset that I call the idea of any prog editing the admin.dat a bad idea.

If you get all uppity and think it's personal if someone does not agree with you or your progs, you'd best stop proging right now and never ever set another foot out of the door.

I'm not upset. Just a little anoyed that this has gone on so long even though I keep trying to end it.

I'm sorry, but I've had a bad day. I just don't have any patience at the moment. Basically my dad was arguing with my mom (again) that we should move out of a major city, Seattle, and live in a little town of just over 800 people in North Dakota. My mother, of course does not want to move from a big city to a town that small out in the middle of no where (nearest city is 70 miles away). My dad then gets mad and threatens to leave us all in an appartment while he goes and moves to North Dakota. There is no possible way we could make it here without his income. But, at the same time, the rest of us really hate the idea of moving there. Yes, I still live with my parents (I'm only 16! jeez) I should have replied tomorrow after some sleep. Hopefully this problem wont come up for another week  

I agree with you on the fact that it could cause problems. But, using tremulous console commands would be much slower. Instead of being able to write all at once, I would have to run each command after the other which would take forever for example with your server that has so many admins. I have integrated safe guards that make it pretty much impossible to screw up admin.dat using TSM. A noob editing admin.dat manually, not knowing what hes doing is far more of a hazzard.

~ Brotherhood

[eyekey1]

I try and start my server i did what it said and it said


tremulous 1.1.0 win_mingw-x86 Aug 27 2006
----- FS_Startup -----
Current search path:
C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Local Settings\Application Data\Tremulous\base\vms-1.1.0.pk3 (1 files)
C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Local Settings\Application Data\Tremulous\base\map-rotcannon-b11.pk3 (31 files)
C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Local Settings\Application Data\Tremulous\base\map-rotcannon-b10.pk3 (31 files)
C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Local Settings\Application Data\Tremulous\base\map-atcs3.pk3 (88 files)
C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Local Settings\Application Data\Tremulous\base\highrise-b6.pk3 (23 files)
C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Local Settings\Application Data\Tremulous/base
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\vms-1.1.0.pk3 (4 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\map-uncreation-1.1.0.pk3 (110 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\map-tremor-1.1.0.pk3 (45 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\map-transit-1.1.0.pk3 (135 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\map-niveus-1.1.0.pk3 (134 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\map-nexus6-1.1.0.pk3 (151 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\map-karith-1.1.0.pk3 (118 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\map-atcs-1.1.0.pk3 (87 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\map-arachnid2-1.1.0.pk3 (67 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\data-1.1.0.pk3 (1229 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous/base

----------------------
2254 files in pk3 files
execing default.cfg
execing autogen.cfg
couldn't exec autoexec.cfg
Hunk_Clear: reset the hunk ok
...detecting CPU, found generic

------- Input Initialization -------
No window for DirectInput mouse init, delaying
Joystick is not active.
------------------------------------
--- Common Initialization Complete ---
Winsock Initialized
Opening IP socket: localhost:0
Hostname: kiz
IP: 192.168.1.64
Working directory: C:\Program Files\Tremulous
execing server.cfg
------ Server Initialization ------
Server: atcs
Hunk_Clear: reset the hunk ok
----- FS_Startup -----
Current search path:
C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Local Settings\Application Data\Tremulous\base\vms-1.1.0.pk3 (1 files)
C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Local Settings\Application Data\Tremulous\base\map-rotcannon-b11.pk3 (31 files)
C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Local Settings\Application Data\Tremulous\base\map-rotcannon-b10.pk3 (31 files)
C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Local Settings\Application Data\Tremulous\base\map-atcs3.pk3 (88 files)
C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Local Settings\Application Data\Tremulous\base\highrise-b6.pk3 (23 files)
C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Local Settings\Application Data\Tremulous/base
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\vms-1.1.0.pk3 (4 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\map-uncreation-1.1.0.pk3 (110 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\map-tremor-1.1.0.pk3 (45 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\map-transit-1.1.0.pk3 (135 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\map-niveus-1.1.0.pk3 (134 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\map-nexus6-1.1.0.pk3 (151 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\map-karith-1.1.0.pk3 (118 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\map-atcs-1.1.0.pk3 (87 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\map-arachnid2-1.1.0.pk3 (67 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base\data-1.1.0.pk3 (1229 files)
C:\Program Files\Tremulous/base

----------------------
4508 files in pk3 files
Loading vm file vm/game.qvm...
...which has vmMagic VM_MAGIC_VER2
Loading 967 jump table targets
VM file game compiled to 1278421 bytes of code
game loaded in 34216320 bytes on the hunk
------- Game Initialization -------
gamename: base
gamedate: Jan 20 2007
------------------------------------------------------------
InitGame: \sv_minRate\3000\g_suddenDeathTime\35\g_maxGameClients\0\sv_maxclients\30\timelimit\55\sv_maxPing\500\sv_minPing\0\sv_maxRate\25000\sv_hostname\C:/ Clan Server\version\tremulous 1.1.0 win_mingw-x86 Aug 27 2006\protocol\69\mapname\atcs\sv_privateClients\0\sv_allowDownload\1\g_needpass\0\gamename\base
!readconfig: loaded 6 levels, 1 admins, 0 bans, 0 commands
2 teams with 2 entities
-----------------------------------
-----------------------------------
usage: set <variable> <value>
execing mapconfigs/default.cfg
execing mapconfigs/atcs.cfg
Hitch warning: 513035633 msec frame time
broadcast: print "!layout: map 'atcs' has no layouts\n"
Resolving master.tremulous.netHitch warning: 924 msec frame time
Hitch warning: 1087 msec frame time
Hitch warning: 1937 msec frame time
Hitch warning: 1478 msec frame time
Hitch warning: 1621 msec frame time
Sending heartbeat to master.tremulous.net

master.tremulous.net resolved to 208.116.49.110:30710
Sending heartbeat to Sending heartbeat to master.tremulous.net
Hitch warning: 1485 msec frame time
Hitch warning: 1991 msec frame time
Hitch warning: 502 msec frame time
Sending heartbeat to master.tremulous.net
Hitch warning: 630 msec frame timeHitch warning: 2069 msec frame time


Hitch warning: 984 msec frame time

Hitch warning i dont no what it means it keeps carring on someone please help me Thanks C:/Eyekey1 MeG

[Plague]

Hitch warning's are a normal part of a working server. The server automatically warns through the console of a hitch warning, which is a delay in the execution of a game event, over 500 msecs.  Hitch warnings are usually generated if CPU time is being spent on other programs or if a more lengthy operation (changing maps or other situations where the game is reading to/writing from the server directory) is occuring.  Too high a hitch warning and clients connected to the server will notice high latency.

[Caveman]

Solutions

- get a dedicated server
- upgrade the cpu
- kill all other processes on that server, like Apache or mysqld
- use smaller maps
- use a qvm that makes use of *.so
- NEVER EVER PLAY ON THE SAME BOX THE SERVER IS RUNNING ON

[eyekey1]

So,if i get a get a dedicated server will it work then?, can i do that by going on Tremulous server manager will it be there?, If i do that and still it is not working, can i leave it and will it stop?. And will i be able to go on that when the server is on?

And what is a deciated server?

C:/Eyekey1 MeG

Can Someone Help Me Please Thanks

[benmachine]

- use a qvm that makes use of *.so

I'd just like to draw it to your attention that this point here makes absolutely no sense, as far as I can tell.

eyekey: a dedicated server is, quite literally, a server which is dedicated to being a server and doesn't do anything else. They generally cost a fair bit of money.
Despite what Caveman says, it is possible to run a server on a non-dedicated box, and to play on the same box, but you will likely get complaints about lag.

[Caveman]

If read in the context it makes perfect sense

But your arguing makes none, what good is a server when the players complain about lag?
So... NEVER EVER PLAY ...

[kevlarman]

If read in the context it makes perfect sense

But your arguing makes none, what good is a server when the players complain about lag?
So... NEVER EVER PLAY ...

what you meant makes perfect sense, what you said makes no sense at all.

[eyekey1]

Ok, if i just leave it will the hitch warnings go??, eventurlily?

[hitchen1]

Ok, if i just leave it will the hitch warnings go??, eventurlily?

they will come and go, as long as its nothing like 3336363331 then theres no problem in it.
just leave it running on a spare pc if u can, if not then it doesnt matter too much