Author Topic: On Human Base Building  (Read 96409 times)

Urcscumug

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Re: On Human Base Building
« Reply #90 on: July 10, 2009, 11:42:36 am »
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@ Urcscumug lines of turrets generally fail. Aliens will jump on top of them and run along it chomping.

Not "aliens", goons. They're the only ones that can do this. Smaller aliens get pounded too bad if you have 3-4+ turrets firing at once. And rants can't jump the turret line.*

* Actually they can, in certain situations. For instance, on Nexus a rant can charge up the stairs to the human base and jump at the top and it will land beyond the rets.

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Alternatively it will just go melee at the corners so that only the turrets closest to the alien will attack it.

Or chew on the line until gaps are opened, which allow rants to pass-through. But:
* On ATCS, in the default base location, if you span the line of rets wall to wall there's no "corner" to attack.
* If you're pushed back in base and forced to defend against a smart AS3 team, you're pretty much screwed anyway. If they attack well the best you can hope for is a draw (assuming you're also S3 and depending on SD and TL).
* Curved lines (semicircles) are better in some circumstances. But they're also lines. :)

Against that specific goon attack (walking on top of rets) the best layout is scattering the rets around the place, both in the horizontal plane as well as at various heights. That's a great tactic, but you can't do it on ATCS. You need supports where to place the rets. The base on Tremor is a good example. But on the other hand such a base is weak against rants burrowing through the rets to reach other structures.

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Personally I feel the best base is the one where aliens have a hard time finding which is the best way to attack it i.e. which is the weakspot that a single alien can exploit.

You seem to assume the best way to attack is with a single alien? What's wrong with aliens working together? In fact, they often fail if they don't.

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This usually means my bases change over time so that what worked last round will not work this time.

From game to game, you mean? Unfortunately, the options are limited. Given a certain map, especially as small as ATCS, you only have few places where to make a good base. On ATCS the default location is pretty much it. Arguably, you can use the bunker and the tunnel, but that's a long way to move, which is something humans can't risk.

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What is an awesome base the first time your opponents sees it may not be awesome the second time.

There are standard alien tactics and the answers to them are pretty much the same. Not to discount new ideas and originality, God forbid, but, especially on small maps, the options are limited, I repeat. Meaning that you don't have a lot of creative liberty as a human builder, and if you assume it you're base gets screwed very fast.

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Additionally I always want my builds to require teamwork to kill even if that makes them a little weaker vs a coordinated attack.

Why are "teamwork" and "coordinated attack" on opposite sides in this sentence?

PS: Speaking of goons, I've noticed something peculiar about advgoons. They rely too much on their barbs and sniping and end up doing nothing else. I find it ridiculous, during an alien attack on ATCS, to see the regular goons jumping all over the place and attacking with everything they've got, while the advgoons, which are more powerful and have more HP, sit confortably around a corner, put out their head for a couple of snipes then run right back. Not sure what that's about. If that's how they're gonna use advgoon we might as well give the barbs to the advgranger.
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janev

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Re: On Human Base Building
« Reply #91 on: July 10, 2009, 08:54:24 pm »
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Additionally I always want my builds to require teamwork to kill even if that makes them a little weaker vs a coordinated attack.

Why are "teamwork" and "coordinated attack" on opposite sides in this sentence?

PS: Speaking of goons, I've noticed something peculiar about advgoons. They rely too much on their barbs and sniping and end up doing nothing else. I find it ridiculous, during an alien attack on ATCS, to see the regular goons jumping all over the place and attacking with everything they've got, while the advgoons, which are more powerful and have more HP, sit confortably around a corner, put out their head for a couple of snipes then run right back. Not sure what that's about. If that's how they're gonna use advgoon we might as well give the barbs to the advgranger.

That seems to be one of those lines that sound so much better in your own head :> Granted it did not come out very clear. "Additionally I always want my builds to require teamwork to kill"= I don’t want my bases being ninja killed by single skilled aliens "even if that makes them a little weaker vs a coordinated attack." = If that means it can't stand a coordinated attack that is fine. Can we agree that lone skilled players are a more common threat in public games than teams that work together? An example of a base that I would think is strong vs ninjas and weaker vs coordinated attacks might include several medistations placed beside each other so that the healing stacks(I would rather have a base that keeps players fighting than one that does their fighting) and  *gasp* a tesla or two to prevent jumpers (assuming you can hide the dc well).  

The stuff you said about advanced goons is true enough. I think it has to do with the fact that normal goons cost less, are smaller / less critical targets for enemy fire and also fit more places than adv goons.  

About the lines I simply assumed you meant straight ones... If you did not that's fine... my bad. Lets not argue about semantics.

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Personally I feel the best base is the one where aliens have a hard time finding which is the best way to attack it i.e. which is the weakspot that a single alien can exploit.

You seem to assume the best way to attack is with a single alien? What's wrong with aliens working together? In fact, they often fail if they don't.

Did I say that? No. I was implying that I like bases that are hard to work out and beat alone. There is nothing wrong with aliens working together but it is rare in public games. In clanwars if you do not take precautions for coordinated ninja attacks you’re doomed to fail anyway.    

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This usually means my bases change over time so that what worked last round will not work this time.

From game to game, you mean? Unfortunately, the options are limited. Given a certain map, especially as small as ATCS, you only have few places where to make a good base. On ATCS the default location is pretty much it. Arguably, you can use the bunker and the tunnel, but that's a long way to move, which is something humans can't risk.

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What is an awesome base the first time your opponents sees it may not be awesome the second time.

There are standard alien tactics and the answers to them are pretty much the same. Not to discount new ideas and originality, God forbid, but, especially on small maps, the options are limited, I repeat. Meaning that you don't have a lot of creative liberty as a human builder, and if you assume it you're base gets screwed very fast.
Varying from game to game as well as over the course of a round. Sure the base I would build in a clanwar would look different from the one in a public game. My building philosophy requires the team to be able to defeat the opposing team without its help. It's main requirements are to be standing even if a few opponents attack it at once and to rearm and resupply the team.

On a side note....Does anyone play clanwars on atcs? That map is the most boring overplayed map in tremulous :P

**Edit: Sent it off instead of doing a preview :>
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 09:25:03 pm by janev »
Author of "The quick beginner's guide to playing tremulous"
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Re: On Human Base Building
« Reply #92 on: July 11, 2009, 12:50:42 am »
most of the american scene clans play cws on atcs. more or less the only clan that tries to get off atcs is ><.

Urcscumug

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Re: On Human Base Building
« Reply #93 on: August 02, 2009, 05:13:27 pm »
Once again, quiz time. What's wrong with this base:

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gimhael

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Re: On Human Base Building
« Reply #94 on: August 02, 2009, 07:55:07 pm »
Obvious: it's in the bunker....

Urcscumug

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Re: On Human Base Building
« Reply #95 on: August 03, 2009, 04:08:06 pm »
Well ok but elaborate a bit if you want full marks. :P

LE: Ok. Ok. I think the silence speaks for itself. It's in the bunker. Which is wrong because there's only one way out of it. So you can't get anywhere without running into all the aliens camping at the entrance, so the best humans can make of it is a horrible siege. Basically, it's about crawling into a whole to die.

Other than that, it's a decent human base. You get 8 turrets split in two rows, all firing at once, and the narrow space means only one rant can attack at once. The 90 degrees angles of the walls make it difficult for goons to get in fast enough. Sure, advgoons can snipe from the other room across the entrance hall, but not if humans camp on the 4 out front with luci and pulse. And anything smaller will die very very fast. Although I'm not very sure about mara, since it can take corners like no other alien can. I suppose the RC is hoppable and once you're up there you get "only" 4 rets firing at you, which takes some of the load off the entrance.

Seriously, if you played aliens and had to take a crack at this base how would you go about it? I don't think AS1 could manage it, but maybe I'm wrong. What about AS2 or 3?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 09:40:46 pm by Urcscumug »
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UniqPhoeniX

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Re: On Human Base Building
« Reply #96 on: August 08, 2009, 09:39:44 pm »
Aliens will always go for the closest turrets, the first 3 (2 on left, 1 on right) can be killed quite easily since the further rets don't cover them. Also a mara/goon can get the armory if it gets to the corner.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 09:41:59 pm by UniqPhoeniX »

Urcscumug

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Re: On Human Base Building
« Reply #97 on: August 09, 2009, 02:28:02 am »
I've been testing this base. You can't focus on any single turret, nor on the RC/arm without having at least 3 turrets firing at you.
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Re: On Human Base Building
« Reply #98 on: August 09, 2009, 02:31:45 am »
snipe the two turrets on the side, send in your rant and smash up the rets, let the rant suicide and send in an agoon to finish it off. 2 alien victory.

Jedarus

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Re: On Human Base Building
« Reply #99 on: August 10, 2009, 04:13:50 pm »
snipe the two turrets on the side, send in your rant and smash up the rets, let the rant suicide and send in an agoon to finish it off. 2 alien victory.

Brute force. I like it!
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F50

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Re: On Human Base Building
« Reply #100 on: February 01, 2010, 05:59:14 pm »
As much as I despise moving to the bunker, that base works, and works well. This is not particuarly due to the structure of the base itself (It has somewhat serious sniping problems and the aliens can build the humans in) but due to the fact that once the aliens buildings above the entrance are removed, jetpacks can defend the entrance very effectively. Aliens generally don't get to see that base much after the jetpacks get in the air.
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Winnie the Pooh

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Re: On Human Base Building
« Reply #101 on: February 02, 2010, 07:17:46 pm »
Might I point out that there is no clear path to the medi without jumping?
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metasyn

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Re: On Human Base Building
« Reply #102 on: September 12, 2010, 07:05:36 pm »
Humans to benifit from advanced bases. Running all the way back to your own base for ammo and health is just plain stupid.