Scoreboard Ideas

[Lava Croft]

I already told Medic that I am happy with just a B next to my name, since any kind of formula for builder scores is prone to failure. I also already told Medic that his idea is good as it is and that I would love to see it implemented as soon as possible. I also opted to Medic that it might not be a bad idea to least let the forum visitors know about his idea, well aware of the nonsense that would most likely be posted in the thread.

You know, there is more communication being done that just via these forums.

@Optimus: If you have quarrel with me, make a seperate thread or just send me PM's. Stop hijacking threads with your comments about me. It does not hurt me at all, but it does make yourself look a bit questionable.

[Atom Eve]

he played like 6 years of tremulous, of course he is accepting new things harder than the rest of us

Not that I particularly care or anything, but Lava has been playing on the MGDev server, and has been adamantly supportive of changes to the game that most of you cry out "OMG NERF SHITSUX I'M NOT UPGRADIN" when you heard about them. He's stated this multiple times in the forums. If you're going to make random attacks at people without knowing anything, you could at least try to make ones that aren't so obviously wrong.

Any equation that attempts to measure "imma gud bilder", which is largely a subjective opinion, and varies so wildly depending upon the situation in the game that it's difficult to find someone who knows what to do in most cases, nonetheless someone who can actually figure out new bases, is an exercise in futility. The killer equations are fine, and applicable, and codable, and good. The builder equations (and suggestions) are lofty, unwieldy, and ultimately ridiculous when it comes down to practicality anyway.

Just my two creds.

[player1]

Lava,

I gathered as much from your earlier comments. Duly noted.

I know, there is more communication being done than just via these forums. (Although the carrier pigeons are a bit much, no?)

Optimus is, like Superman, a friend to the oppressed. Besides, aren't you guys spending a lot of time at the SwasTux thread anyway?

[Revan]

Besides, aren't you guys spending a lot of time at the SwasTux thread anyway?

No I am at the MS vs. YH thread in a war with Lava, the swastika must be why he is fighting on two fronts!

[Survivor]

I already told Medic that I am happy with just a B next to my name, since any kind of formula for builder scores is prone to failure. I also already told Medic that his idea is good as it is and that I would love to see it implemented as soon as possible.

And your opinion always supercedes those of others here because?

I also opted to Medic that it might not be a bad idea to least let the forum visitors know about his idea, well aware of the nonsense that would most likely be posted in the thread.

You know, there is more communication being done that just via these forums.

So in essence the opinion of people who spend most of their community time in the forums and not in irc or the other means of communications are worth significantly less than those that participate in more?

he played like 6 years of tremulous, of course he is accepting new things harder than the rest of us

Any equation that attempts to measure "imma gud bilder", which is largely a subjective opinion, and varies so wildly depending upon the situation in the game that it's difficult to find someone who knows what to do in most cases, nonetheless someone who can actually figure out new bases, is an exercise in futility. The killer equations are fine, and applicable, and codable, and good. The builder equations (and suggestions) are lofty, unwieldy, and ultimately ridiculous when it comes down to practicality anyway.

Just my two creds.

Strange thing is, most of my posts get skipped it seems. Medic's main concern with the builder equations was the disconnect between human's repair ability and the aliens lack of it. I gave a proposal without equation, because I know it would need finetuning anyway. Yet nobody has responded to it.
The other thing is the disconnect between importance and thus scoring of building and fighting, how to compare these two is indeed messy, but who said they should be compared. Anyone who plays this game knows that building is important, but in a different way. Two seperate scores could do fine in making an offense ranking and a construct ranking.

[Atom Eve]

Any equation that attempts to measure "imma gud bilder", which is largely a subjective opinion, and varies so wildly depending upon the situation in the game that it's difficult to find someone who knows what to do in most cases, nonetheless someone who can actually figure out new bases, is an exercise in futility. The killer equations are fine, and applicable, and codable, and good. The builder equations (and suggestions) are lofty, unwieldy, and ultimately ridiculous when it comes down to practicality anyway.

Just my two creds.

Strange thing is, most of my posts get skipped it seems. Medic's main concern with the builder equations was the disconnect between human's repair ability and the aliens lack of it. I gave a proposal without equation, because I know it would need finetuning anyway. Yet nobody has responded to it.
The other thing is the disconnect between importance and thus scoring of building and fighting, how to compare these two is indeed messy, but who said they should be compared. Anyone who plays this game knows that building is important, but in a different way. Two seperate scores could do fine in making an offense ranking and a construct ranking.

Sorry about that. I was only specifically responding to those who were tossing up big equations that aim to see who's the best builder, I'm not sure how that wording slipped in there. I don't find any particular issue with your suggestion (score based on time as builder during high bp times), or Medic's ideas (person who builds most gets a B, score for time spent as a builder in general), aside from the general problem that both could indirectly encourage team-disabling "score-whoring" for building (which you addressed in your original post). I don't think a system exists that can rectify this common problem with any attempt to score building.

The destroyer/killer ratings can be used to encourage destroying enemy structures and not TKing; the builder ratings, however, I can only see encouraging a form of bad building in attempt to get a "good builder" score.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

EDIT: ----> moved to the topic
@Lava: there were no personal problems, as i only complained about the avatar and the trolling, not you. - as i got used to your supremacy issues. no use for PM. but you are welcome anytime :-D
@Eve: the only reason i take care of his trolling is that otherwise he plays a responsible and decent role in the community. if a noob would do what he does, Lava would be the first policeman there.
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maybe if the +NEWS+ would be refreshed time by time we'd know more about dev's ongoing ideas... hmmm?

on topic, i'd prefer Survivor's idea about the separated stats.
player1's ingame-banner idea would be good to tell just enough about builders. as i imagine that the player could be marked if he is building a huge percent of game, repairing a significant quantity, or making a successful base moving. other point of views are just too subjective (well, even the moving is). i see you countings but i guess the separated icons would work better.
like if you moved base successfully, you could have a "mover" banner, and if you fight poorly after that, it would be still there to be happy with it.
but with your countings, this player would have a low fighting stat with a poor builder stat, as he didn't do any other building during the game. hmmm?

[Atom Eve]

maybe if the +NEWS+ would be refreshed time by time we'd know more about dev's ongoing ideas... hmmm?

The Mercenaries Guild guys have been hugely helpful by working on experimental balance changes under the direction of Norfenstein. You can help out here by playing on their server, thus creating more balance data with which to further refine the game.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

oh wow ty :-D

[player1]

So far, everyone agrees that rating building is going to be a challenge that may never see a useful, non-arguable result. We also all seem to pretty much agree on how to rate damage. And we agree that if there ever were a way to rate building, it would have to be a completely separate rating from the killer/destroyer rating. Also, several schemes have been proposed, and hopefully we can take apart some specific quotes in a friendly fashion to see if we can find any room for agreement there. But let's discuss something else for the moment.

As Lava said, hopefully the interested parties have gone off to make the thing (since we can talk about it until doomsday), however, I think continuing to discuss it here shows an interest in the project, keeps it alive, and provides a repository of community suggestions for possible improvements/expansions/features/etc., if and when Medic and friends eventually return. I'd like to add that I agree with you, LC, their time is better spent making something actual, which is then critique-able, based on what it is, not what we dream it could be (although it would still be competing against our Ideal of itself, not against a slightly better version of itself), rather than listening to blather. But maybe we can have some ideas waiting for their return.

I also want to point out that while thinking about scoring, at least two other silly ideas occurred to me, both related to the Quake3Arena medals, and their appearance on the final tallies on the scoreboard. Like most of the Q3a code (including stuff like the railgun, I assume) I believe this is available for use in Tremulous (I'm sure the decision was made not to use it). If you'd like to comment on them, they are here and here.

Please stop by those threads and let me know how much you agree, disagree, are offended by, or left unaffected by, those proposals.

@Surv, Atom Eve: your posts deserve a considered response, which I will have to defer to later. Non-virtual concerns here intervene.

@Lava: look, civil discussion among online gamers!

@Opti: I will parse quotes later, thanks for the response (I think I know what you are saying).

[Medic]

I've actually just been out of tremulous for a bit because my computer stopped playing trem for about 2 months.  Despite lots of troubleshooting, help from all of MG, searching this forum, there was nothing that seemed to help.  A couple days ago it started working again, why, I do not know.  This is part of the reason why I hate software and electrics and love mechanical devices.  But coupling that with the fact that I've started getting tasks at work and I'm on mandatory overtime, I just haven't been around much.  I'm still here, I've looked at the forums.  I was just interested to see if anything else would brew.  The scoreboard discussion is kind of on hold because it isn't considered a priority.  The 1.2 devs have not looked this over and thus it is going to remain in limbo until it is either blessed or cast into hell.  Once again, I apologize for the disappearance but life has been hectic lately.

[ChaosSquirrel]

There definately needs to be a major penalty for TK, so that the people who do wouldn't whine about people stepping in front of them and learn to shoot. This is a major problem, as I left my favorite server because of one guy who couldn't hold his fire. Also, it would help to have score penalties and etc. for people who consistently whine and so on. I know this sounds hypocritical. However, the server I play on (at least, when I was on) does not mute for being a whiner. Maybe a vote 75%?

[frogg]

I hadn't seen this post but had some similar ideas. I posted them here:

http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11549.0

I took a different approach. Here are some of the reasons:

- doing damage to someone/something that is subsequently healed/repaired does not benefit your team. Ideally, only people who die/things that are destroyed should count towards the points. So many rushes do damage to RC or whatever, but if it doesn't go down, it doesn't matter because someone will repair it.
- I based the score on how much money/evos had been invested, because that's really what matters, in a sense. In order to maximally benefit your team, you should: get kills (in stages 1 and 2), destroy the enemy's credits/evos (regardless of how they used them) and destroy the base. For example, let's say a human goes out with a helmet/armour and a rifle. Suppose another human has helmet/shotgun and luci. If I kill the luci I've done more for my team, but with this proposed system they would each be worth the same amount.
- Feeding really is bad, especially in s1/s2. It should be penalized. With my proposal we subtract less for a feed than you gain for a kill (unless you're killing a dretch/nude). This will make it easy to identify feeders because they are negative. Admittedly, this could promote camping, which I hadn't thought of. Still, there are times when camping is the right thing to do (e.g. as3 vs. hs2)

I actually like the idea of a builder badge. Maybe instead of a B is should be a logo of some sort (e.g. a ckit icon/granger icon)

[frazzler]

Perhaps you could simply deduc points for deconstructing something? Let's say that building a structure is worth 10 points. Deconstructing deducts 15, HOWEVER, building a structure AFTER decocnstructing one, would reward 15 points, so that someone who thinks they decon a building then rebuild it, over and over in order to gain points, will be quite dissapointed.