Destructible Environments

[techhead]

In short, Q3 support for these ONLY if they are detail brushes as well.

[==Troy==]

Re: Destructible Environments:

Being able to blast holes between arbitrary areas of the map is almost certainly impractical as this requires fundamental changes to the way that Q3 rendering works - remember what the vis stage of map compilation is for. Surfaces that deform (within strict bounds) when damaged are possible but will require significant coding to implement.

What I would really like as a mapper is to be able to define surfaces in terms of how they react to being shot at with the various weapons in Tremulous. For example, shooting bullets at sand does not leave black marks, emit a ricochet sound or create flying sparks. Instead, a small pit is left with a small cloud of dust (assuming that the sand is dry) with a quiet "thump" sound.

I've just played the original Half-Life again, and the way in which the different materials react to being smacked with a crowbar adds significantly more depth to the environments in the game than could be achieved with just the graphics engine alone. How difficault would it be to allow shaders like this?

Code: [Select]

// mymap.shader

mymap/alienflesh
{
        impactsound    splat.wav
        stepsound      squish.wav
        impact_ps      mymap/alienblood
        impact_mark    mymap/alien_wound

        {
               map     mymap/alienflesh.jpg
           etc...


This will require some client-side modification, since the events which are being sent to the player are list-based and cannot be changed only on the server side.

On the other hand. I have tried this, and found that you can do a neat trick, hooking onto the surfaceparms, and it WILL be possible to spawn a particle system in the place where the entity hit the surface, AND produce the sounds, given that the map pk3 has them. Sadly, now I am completely lost of what should I do first...

[player1]

@Troy: What's on your to-do list? And, are you saying you think that thing Taiyo said is really doable?
@techhead: I must resort to google*, but I think I follow that.
@Taiyo: That is a really cool idea. That is a really cool idea. That would deepen gameplay without creating major balance issues.

But, hey fellas, please don't talk about ideas or coding here. It only makes Lava anxious and cranky, and he'll start yelling at me again.

@Lava: Perhaps, you sir, are concerned with that which is "merely possible". What you don't seem to be addressing is how it would affect gameplay, and why it hasn't achieved wider usage, if it is "merely possible". Many things are possible in Tremulous: I've seen screenies of CTF in ATCS with Lara Croft and a giant Q3a eyeball. It's not about what's "merely possible". It's about editing and balance. There are lots of cool maps on empty servers which never get played which demonstrate the emptiness of expression in only doing that which is "merely possible". Has adding exploding barrels to any of your maps made anyone want to play them and if so, were there any balance issues involved? Or is this just a major trollfest, and your "merely possible" suggestion got exactly what it deserved, a whole steaming pile of n00bly suggestions shoved down its wild, stupid throat? "OMFG, he suggested crates! Stone the unbeliever!"

I'm sure glad you didn't work at the Wright Brothers bike shop. "Why should a man fly when he can pedal?" 

But now, the do-ers have arrived. Carry on, gentlemen, I leave you to your decaling experiments.

P.S. So pushable, destructible crates really are possible? Maybe they'll be useful to balance the exploding barrels. 

Cheers! 

your anguish sustains me

*A detail brush is a type of brush that does not block the -VIS stage of the compiler. In short, any brush that does not provide structure/seal to a room, and merely is there to detail the room, should be made a detail brush [ctrl + M]

hrm, sounds a lot like a barrel or a crate

[TRaK]

I really like Taiyo's idea. Modifiable weapon impact sounds could add a lot to the feel of a map without seeming to require a hugely complex implementation. I know that I could personally really use something like this in my maps.

[==Troy==]

Uh... What I can definitely say at this moment is :

1) Spawning a particle effect at the location of the impact is 95% doable on the server-side only. It can also be weapon-dependant, I can even spawn particles from the player itself (from his feet).

2) Making a custom step sounds might require client-side modification, I will look into that when I will have time. (similar to hit-sounds).


But generally : server can send pretty much ANY command to client, hence in the very end it might end up in a hack-like implementation for the server-side.


@ player1 Just a few big ones :

subnet bans
Anti-decon bot release
Hovelports release
AMP 0.2 release
Debugging the server
ETQW jetpacks test/code
etc.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

Troy, would it be possible to place exploding objects in layoutedit-mode to make variations to the same map with different layouts? <.< like 0Bp standard dumb buildables what can only explode and are not affected by any other buildings or actions.

[player1]

@Troy: I'd be interested to hear your comments about these silly ideas - medals & destruction icons for the scoreboard.

@Opti: So you could make different layouts with explodable items in different, unknown locations each time a map is played? How about having them randomly placed so even the op/admin doesn't know where they are until they are spotted/detonated? I think that would be more fair.

Also, what do you guys think about balance with explodables, since the Humans have more ranged weapons (generally speaking)?

[+ OPTIMUS +]

yup, the distance weapon stuff is on humans side, most aliens would be only able to do kamikazee explosions, but playing with friendly fire could be also interesting. and well if you explode something from a distance, it's just... not there anymore. doN't type near risky places, that's all :-)

at the same time, i think random placing could result unexpectedly unlucky situations, like a barrel of gasoline inside a base or blocking a tunnel where dretches/s1 grangers can't go till it's exploded (i think we can agree that S1 grangers and dretches shouldn't be able to destroy them as it would be suicide for them and ofc no attack button).
placing them creatively can be more fun i beleive, like making players to achieve certain heights that would be otherwise require a jetpack or wallcrawling (risky as they can explode under you).

[player1]

But isn't it unfair for one player/team/clan/clique to know where they are? Someone has to place them in layout mode. That person should then sit out the match, unless and until the explodables are detonated (assuming he doesn't just PM his friends about the "secret" location).

Besides just not being there anymore after they are detonated, don't they deal damage? And not walking around them is great, if you know where they are. Can the Alien team place some, too? Or just a ckit in layout/dev mode? Seems unfair/unbalanced. That's why I suggested having a few of each in each base at mapstart: maybe the Humans can destroy the Alien base quickly by detonating them from afar, but one good basi/mara/goon suicide could take out the Human base pretty quickly, too. If they were just in neutral areas, they would just be a novelty, almost not worth doing (one minor explosion nobody else sees in an hour-long game?).

Also, they are not prox mines. Simply walking into one would not detonate it, so I guess you are right that dretches and basic grangers would be stuck, but they are only barrels - they would only block a pretty small opening (like a vent, but not a Human-sized doorway). Once they are detonated, blockage removed.

Yes, random placement would have some unplayable/unfair/it-sucks-to-be-you moments, but I'd rather have the server do it than trust the other team (I don't - because they are the enemy, and want to win, no matter how much they swear they are being fair).

[+ OPTIMUS +]

I'm not thinking about !layout edit before every game :-D

when server owners are making the layouts for their servers, they could build up the scene as they want, that's all. a small creativity-candy for everyone :-)
so Lava does not have to place them when creating a new map - this way he can avoid a serious headache easily.
also, without them, the map would be still 100%. it would be just some spice.
for example, I'd place some of theese near known secondary base locations, so human builders could save themselves during moving by blowing up crates with blasters.

and i guess theese exploding stuffs would have some recogniseable look to be obvious that they can damage your health srsly. (e.g. Quake2 exploding crates's look)

[player1]

I'm not thinking about !layout edit before every game :-D

That's good. Realize that some people would use them like that, stopping every match to spend ten minutes -tee-hee - hiding barrels that only they know about.

when server owners are making the layouts for their servers, they could build up the scene as they want, that's all. a small creativity-candy for everyone :-)

Hopefully they will do several versions of each map, otherwise after a few playthroughs, the exploding barrels will quickly get old, boring and been-there/done-that.

so a mapper does not have to place them when creating a new map - this way he can avoid a serious headache easily.

They should either be integrated into the map by the mapper as part of its overall design, or as you say, some way should be provided to scatter them about the map in a new and random pattern at each mapstart.

also, without them, the map would be still 100%. it would be just some spice.

Either they should be designed as an integral part of the map, or the map should be entirely playable without them even being there.

for example, I'd place some of theese near known secondary base locations, so human builders could save themselves during moving by blowing up crates with blasters.

I like that idea; although it has a few tactical drawbacks, it would make moving more fun, but also very risky. Plus you still haven't given the Aliens anything. Would granger spit or goon barbs detonate the barrels, also?

and i guess theese exploding stuffs would have some recogniseable look to be obvious that they can damage your health srsly. (e.g. Quake2 exploding crates's look)

Yeah, they definitely need to have some label, no matter how worn, obscured, or tattered, that identifies them as different from the innocuous barrels and/or crates.

[whitebear]

Yeah... Humans clearly need 10 sec buildable barrels that blink between orange and invisible then give *beep beep* sound and explode when alien is close enough. Right?

[player1]

Yeah... Humans clearly need 10 sec buildable barrels that blink between orange and invisible then give *beep beep* sound and explode when alien is close enough. Right?

not for Humans only
10 sec?
buildable?
blink btw orange and invisible?
beep-beep sound?
explode when alien is close enough?

I think you may be exercising a bit of hyperbole there my friend.

No, clearly Humans do NOT need something like this, which is why we are talking about how this might fairly be integrated into Tremulous.

Actually, they wouldn't be buildable, or have proximity detection, and I've been saying from my second post in this thread that explodables would seem to convey a huge Human advantage, and that Aliens would need something to balance this.

Of course, prox mines already got made, and I didn't hear anyone screaming about balance issues there. Maybe something is getting lost in translation.

I know you're just being sarcastic, whitebear, but read the entire thread. The last thing I want is exploding barrels to be a huge Human advantage (which is why they should be randomly placed by the server).

Having some sort of DANGER! decal wouldn't hurt too much, but they wouldn't be conceived of as a Human asset (although, as I've said now about nine times, they would be more advantageous to Humans, who can detonate them from afar).

Personally I think the idea is little more than a novelty, which will be greeted with cries of "cheap", "cheat" and "lame", unless used sparingly, wisely and with style and restraint. But stuff that goes BOOM! is always going to add a little excitement for the average gamer.

I hope I've made my thoughts a bit clearer. This is a silly idea, and we're just seeing how it would play out, and if implemented, what might be needed to balance it. It exists, so how could it most appropriately be utilized?



Cheers!

edit'd to increase comprehensibility for those who might be confused or like to exaggerate
 

[whitebear]

I've got nothing against the barrels as long as they are for mappers to place. I wouldn't have anything against Ion cannon as long as it's there as long as mapping is required.
Reason being that proper mapping could balance them.

[player1]

They should either be integrated into the map by the mapper as part of its overall design, or as you say, some way should be provided to scatter them about the map in a new and random pattern at each mapstart.

Either they should be designed as an integral part of the map, or the map should be entirely playable without them even being there.

[Plague Bringer]

Just skimmed through this topic a bit, and I caught the 0bp build-ables comment. This game me an idea..

    What about a third team, let's call them gaia. They're unplayable, and their only purpose is to supply destructible objects placeable in layout and GTKRadiant? You could have simple objects, such as boxes from Tremor, and Niveus. Computer consoles from Nexus6. Various heights and sizes for walls and similar objects, perhaps even planks or bridges that could be put over a gap. Objects like this could be just for eye-candy in some maps, but they could also serve as game play altering aspects of others.

    Perhaps it could introduce a subtle objective system. The humans have to get across the bridge to their new base spot before it's destroyed. Humans have to get a base up before the boxes blocking the alien's path is destroyed. These objectives wouldn't need any further coding, they'd simply be common knowledge for map veterans, just the same as common base moves and times are to most of us older players.

[whitebear]

I think I've suggested something extremely similar in past.

[==Troy==]

1) Spawning a particle effect at the location of the impact is 95% doable on the server-side only. It can also be weapon-dependant, I can even spawn particles from the player itself (from his feet).

This is done. I have managed to override the default event of the weapon hitting a wall and spawn my own partcle system there.

The only thing I need is : How do you want it to work?

Meaning, how you want to work with it? My thought is to have Surface param with string : Targ_NAME where the NAME is the particle system which will be spawned upon the bullet collision. But this does not really fix the problem of multiple weapons having different effects on the same surface. Targ_Weapon_Name is a bit too overcomplicated. Any suggestions are welcome, since now its just a matter of polishing the code and making a proper user input.

[techhead]

On the "gaia" team, I suggested at one point a robot factory that churns out (stupid) little robots when it is disturbed. Once produced, these annoying drones will attack aliens and humans indiscriminately.
Nonetheless, my idea got mixed reviews, although it was probably the most feasible and realistic idea for a third race ever created.

[whitebear]

Back then we had no genius AI coder Amine to code us bots.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

Just skimmed through this topic a bit, and I caught the 0bp build-ables comment. This game me an idea..

    What about a third team, let's call them gaia. They're unplayable, and their only purpose is to supply destructible objects placeable in layout and GTKRadiant? You could have simple objects, such as boxes from Tremor, and Niveus. Computer consoles from Nexus6. Various heights and sizes for walls and similar objects, perhaps even planks or bridges that could be put over a gap. Objects like this could be just for eye-candy in some maps, but they could also serve as game play altering aspects of others.

    Perhaps it could introduce a subtle objective system. The humans have to get across the bridge to their new base spot before it's destroyed. Humans have to get a base up before the boxes blocking the alien's path is destroyed. These objectives wouldn't need any further coding, they'd simply be common knowledge for map veterans, just the same as common base moves and times are to most of us older players.

something like this could be part of sinle player maybe

[player1]

On the "gaia" team, I suggested at one point a robot factory that churns out (stupid) little robots when it is disturbed. Once produced, these annoying drones will attack aliens and humans indiscriminately.
Nonetheless, my idea got mixed reviews, although it was probably the most feasible and realistic idea for a third race ever created.

I loved that idea. Let's revive it! Thread necro, here I come!

[Plague Bringer]

Gaia could have many uses. The sentinel creating factory, (in)discriminatory defenses (perhaps organic weapons that attack only humans, sentry turrets that attack only aliens, or some other form of defense that attacks both species), destructible barrels, computers, boxes, "gibbable" corpses, et cetera, could all be made possible by the implementation of a non-player team. I doubt anything like this would make it into an official release while it's just taking off, but who knows, perhaps a mod could become popular and the devs'd get hooked on the idea.

-p.s....

Gaia could have some structures that give rewards when destroyed, such as a boost of cash or build points. Perhaps they could also speed up staging by removing a few kills. Gaia is open to any NPC build-ables, as they can be discriminatory or in-discriminatory, and since they are in no way affected by human players, they needn't follow any particular theme or purpose. They're neither here, nor there.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

this is turning to be quite interesting, cool :-)

lets brainstorm some, i'd like to be inspired to make concept art :-)

[Plague Bringer]

Yay, concept art for the barrel!


Fun intended.

I'd work on some concept art, too.

Before we get further into this project, I'd like to know if there are any coders willing to take up this project. Mind you, any artwork I do for this would be good for a portfolio, I'd just like to know whether or not any of it would be used.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

i was thinking about the gaia stuff... but happy that there are more swift fingers out there :-)

[player1]

@+ OPTIMUS + & Plague Bringer: Perhaps at this point in would be useful to start a Gaia thread, and fork off here and now from simply the concept of destructible environments (especially since actual coders are having an entirely different discussion). As a matter of fact, I'll start one for you, and you can explain your ideas and post your art there.

Plague Bringer, as I understand it, you are talking about a sort of Dungeon Master third team, who would move artifacts around existing maps to get more playability out of the popular maps and the default maps? (Please answer me in that other thread over there.)

So far the ideas I liked were the robot factory, and the exploding barrels, which go together nicely, and now this whole thing reminds me of my favorite parts of Deus Ex.

P.S. Gaia correspondents: If you guys want to continue this over there, we can all delete these posts from this thread and clean it up a little. I will if you will.

Necro-edit: Take a look at this idea.

[Eyn Xaeyn]

i favor the exploding barrels,

alien runs by barrel, human snipes barrel, BOOOOM!, alien dead

[blood2.0]

maybe make a mod where you could build them. or make them  respond and if its like any other game people will shoot them as soon as they see them. 

[player1]

yeah, they may never be tactical, because the first idiot who sees it will shoot it, whether Aliens are coming or not