[concept] Research instead of stages.

[==Troy==]

Quite a twist from the usual stage kills and the need to kill XXX number of players to get to the next stage.

The suggestion is to make the equipment "researchable". Basically players will have to donate their money to a "project" which gradually is being researched by mysterious scientists on the other end of the telenodes.

How is it going to look :

Player comes to (RC/Armoury), presses Q, a menu pops up (I do hope I will be able to code the menu for RC without the CS modification) for the different projects available, clicking on one of them and then choosing buy, will cause an XXX donation to the project. You will also be able to see the percentages payed and done. When a new research has been completed, it is being announced to the team.


This will also balance a bit the fact that a tyrant is harder to kill, but it is still worth 1 stage kill, same as dretch.


To make it a bit more interesting, the cost of the tech is related to the number of players, and it is much higher than the cost of the weapon, to add some tactics to the process.


Any criticism and suggestions are welcome. Once I will shape this idea, I will start working on its implementation.



(similar thing for aliens)

[+ OPTIMUS +]

it's a nice idea, would add a real tree of upgradeables like in a strategy game. also it smells realistic and sci-fi like as the human's "empire" provides his minions with tools only if they are worthy enough :-)

(maybe the base could be upgraded this way also, making more build points available than the default by sacrificing credits.)
altough i can imagine the debates about how the game have been lost by adding credits to the "wrong" way of upgrades, or not upgrading enough just buying and wasting equipment...
maybe certain percentage of credits should be able to spend on yourself, then another on the team.

[==Troy==]

Well, its up to every single player to decide which project is he going to sponsor. And the costs are going to be balanced so that a single player will have no chance of "pushing" his tech through.

BP and buidables is another thing I was thinking about, but if I will get weapons working, rest wont be that hard ))

[mooseberry]

What about aliens? Do they change, or is it the same? I'm just wondering how that would balance out.

For the record I do like your idea.

[techhead]

Sounds like a decent idea to me, Reactor/OM would be better than armory, definitely.
Incorporating overflow into this would be nice, overflow credits are automatically spent on randomized team upgrades. I just hope NS fanboys don't hear about this.

[Kaleo]

Gah!

Quick... Stamp TOP SECRET on this!

No wait! That would draw them in... GAH!

Call the FBI!!!!

[Thisguy]

Sounds like a decent idea to me, Reactor/OM would be better than armory, definitely.
Incorporating overflow into this would be nice, overflow credits are automatically spent on randomized team upgrades. I just hope NS fanboys don't hear about this.

NS?

Nice idea of mod.

i'd have it you pay to unlock a cartain weapons group for yourself (or evo option)

the more groups you buy the more become avaiolbe to you and the overflow system also sound useful.
 

[meren]

The suggestion is to make the equipment "researchable". Basically players will have to donate their money to a "project" which gradually is being researched by mysterious scientists on the other end of the telenodes.

Such a brilliant idea.. Seriously.

[HamStar]

So would the research improve weapon damage/armour or something to that effect? I rather like this idea because it adds more to the gameplay without it being too detrimental to it.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

noes, it would make the weapons and researches simply AVAILABLE i guess.

only thing i find detrimental about it: hunting of frozen people while deciding about the ways of research (techically afk). it's already a huge advantage for 'binded' gamers to spend less time at armory than plain newbs, as with goon or mara it's cherry picking to find and eliminate them.

[techhead]

You would have to increase the cash you get from kills to offset the lack of stage-kills.
Still a good idea.

It would also support people spending less to get their stage kills, as people would not do stupid things with their boatloads of cash.
Encourage people to play smarter is good.

Letting noobs get more cash per kill means that they would not be as much of a hinderance for their team when they go rushing into battle as a dretch or naked rifleman.
Helping noobs out as they learn the game is good.

Lets kill-whore spend their cash on research they want, so they can get better stuff and earn more cash to buy more research.
Allowing kill-whores to help their team more than shooting everything in sight is good.

Lets true pros earn their cash, get those GOOD upgrades, researching stuff that really helps the team win the game.
Encouraging more teamwork among pros is good. (As if they need it)

[Metsjeesus]

Point is, if you kill 1 tyrant, its still gives 1 kill to next stage. But in research system it gives like 5 kills.

On human side, what is researchable. Better weapons, armor, new builidings and buildpoints. You should get them before you spawn aka you can spawn as fully armed  lucyguy(damn i hate endings with no armory)

I try to make list and some prices as 1 drech is 150 $.

Weapon. (Cost). Research cost, Some comments
Ckit. (free) Default. Basic buildings React, repeater, arm, node, medi, turret. Slow building/healing speed, gives no ammo.
Advanced Ckit. (100). 2000. include buildings like Def Comp(heals all nearby buildings slowly), tesla(tesla wont need def comp). Increased build/heal speed, heals itself, gives ammo.
blaster.(free). Default.
Rifle. (free). Default.
Psaw. (100). 1000.
Shotgun. (150). Default.
Lasgun. (250) . 1500
MD.(350) . 2000. Needs researched lasgun
Flamethrower.(450). 3000.
Chaingun.(400) 4000. Needs reseached flamethrower.
Pulse rifle. (400).2500, Needs reseached lasgun.
Lucygun.(600) . 4000 Needs researched pulse rifle.
Nade.(200). 1500

Armor(70) Default
Helmet. (90). 900
+Vision. (100). 1000. Needs Researched helmet
Battlesuit (400) . 4000. Needs Researched helmet
+BS Vision.(200) . 2000 Needs researched bs and researched vision helmet.

1 buildingpoint 1000$

[techhead]

You got the flame-thrower and chaingun somewhat backwards, and the advanced ckit still is free. Also, what is vision?? You mean radar? You also omitted grenades, batterypack, and jetpack.
Still, not a bad guideline.
As this would be a client-side mod, sticking a few other stuff, like a Medical Kit, would be nice.

[==Troy==]

I really doubt that that is the best way of looking at it. Just 10X the price of a weapon to research it is a bit... ehm..

The menues are indeed client-side feature, but I will try to look for some workaround if possible at all. On the other hand, it might be just a 300kb download mod.

As for the tech tree, really there are 2 ways :
Plain simple research a weapon for $, without any relationships and upgrades of damages, simple and boring.

Second way is to divide everything into 3 (for example) clusters, where each one has got its unique weapon set both for base assaults (prifle, lucy cannon, possible lasgun, grenades, painsaw) fight with large classes (chaingun, flamethrower, etc.) and utility weapons (rifle, shotgun, MD etc.) Each cluster allows you to research improvements for weapons, equipment and base. Somewhere along the lines of : defencive research, intermideate and offensive.

The costs will prevent a multiple cluster research and force players to accurately choose which way they are going. I will also try to prevent aliens going into tyrant-advgoon line and humans  bsuit-chaingun all the time. But let me first code the base up and then think of what content will it have.

[techhead]

Eh, make the upgrades coherent instead, IMHO.


Humans:
Default unresearched: rifle/ckit, shotgun, lightarmor

Energy Tech-Tree:
Lasgun (no requisite)
Mass-driver (requires lasgun)
Pulse-rifle (requires lasgun)
Lucifer Cannon (requires Pulse-rifle)
Batterypack (requires lasgun)

Projectile Tech-Tree:
Painsaw (no requisite)
Chain-gun (no requisite)
Grenade (requires chaingun)
Flame-thrower (requires chaingun)

Armor Tech-tree:
Helmet (no requisite)
Jetpack (requires helmet)
Bsuit (requires helmet)

Aliens are much simpler
Default unresearched: Dretch, Basilisk, Marauder, Granger
All advanced versions require basic.
Tyrant requires goon.

[mooseberry]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

[player1]

@==Troy==: I really like this idea, if it could be implemented properly. The only problem I see is that Humans might not agree on what to research, and never put enough cash into any one project to get better artifacts (OK, they'd better research armor). Maybe we need three silos/clusters/techtrees for Aliens also. See below for a tentative first stab at defining some terms.

@techhead: I think yours is the most succinct and concise reply yet, but I want to change it a bit.

Human Tech Trees

• NRG Weapons & Teslas
• Proj Weapons & Turrets
• Armor/Painsaw & Defensive Buildables (Turrets & Teslas)

Alien Tech Trees

• Big Classes (Goons and Tyrants)
• Advanced Classes (+basi, +mara, +goon, +granger)
• Poison/Healing & Defensive Buildables (Tyrant Healing Rate, Booster [and Healing Rate & Poison Duration], Acid Tube, Hive, Trapper, Barricade, etc.) - biotech

[Plague Bringer]

I really like that "tyrant healing rate" idea.

Perhaps the aliens have to research their auto healing, and maybe the Tyrant has no healing aura until it's researched?

Defcom needs to come before Tesla.

Luci needs more than the Lasgun as a pre-req to be researched.

I don't like the idea of needing to research the basic defenses (turrets and acids).

I'll see if I can get together an Age of Empires style Tech-Tree together some time tomorrow (after my dental). I've got English to do tonight.

[techhead]

Sorry, fixed the luci thing.
I deliberately left out the buildings, as the only buildings humans can live without (at beginning) are defcomp, tesla, and repeater. Alien building "tech-tree"  would be... counterintuitive. Only barricade -> hovel and trapper -> hive make sense.

[Circle]

Setting reac to start at lower Hp and research to raise it?

Research medi kit or some form?

btw, I like the research idea.

[Death On Ice]

Imagine the campage.

Guy: Guys! We're only 800 credits away from Lucis!

Guy2: Sweet! Camp for credits, don't die, the probably are several evolves from Rants!

Guy3: Roger that, Camp!

Guy4: Roger.

[whitebear]

How is that different from current "5k for next stage" camping?

[Odin]

I suggested this... last year? Shows how much people search.

[Metsjeesus]

I really doubt that that is the best way of looking at it. Just 10X the price of a weapon to research it is a bit... ehm..

Well, i hoped to get some ideas back and i think i got this. If you know what you dont need, you know better what you should need. About prices, it really depends how many players are in each team. 2 vs 2 is not the same as 20 vs 20, my example prices are on 10vs10, is it too much or not, that you can discuss. Aliens are problem, evos are a little harder to share then money, they dont split so well, but you can imagine you feed your overmind with it.

Some ideas, i would like as a human that i can deposit money to a point, where every member can once spawn with chaingun and battlesuit or somthing like that. (800$*10 players=8000$). In alien side you can't do this thing, but you can share to everyone 5 evos at some point. Its like preparing rush. 

[player1]

Today's silly twist on your cool idea: I hope you don't mind, but I just looked up and saw Quake III Arena and Team Arena on my shelf.

Okay, now before you scream at me, I've got a new silly idea. It involves utilizing some existing Quake3 assets, and I've proposed something like it before. I'm going to go ahead and say it now, and then you can start screaming:

Gameplay would continue as normal, with regular Tremulous assets awarded at stageup, based on killcount. In addition, each faction will have three possible techtrees which they can research, (by donating their own credits or evos to the research effort, instead of using share/donate/overflow), each of which will progressively unlock the Quake3 assets as shown in the following silos, which will then be available for purchase by individual players:

Human Techtrees
NRG: Ammo-Regen*, Zapper, Railgun
Proj: Nailgun, Prox Launcher, Grenade Launcher
Biotech: Medkit, Gasgun¹, Juggernaut (dmgX_a/nerf'd FF)

*nerf to energy weapons only
¹OK you'd have to take the +basi attack and stick it in a flamethrower and paint it green

Alien Techtrees
Speed: Haste, Teleport, Kamikaze (slightly nerf'd)
Force: Regeneration (buff'd Alien ability), Invulnerability (when stationary; mines can dmg), Invisibility (becomes Cloak if HP>199)
Strength: Impervious (splash damage), Megahealth² (see below), Berserker (dmgX_b/no FF nerf)

²This would have to be based on class maximum health and current health, worth 100 points max, but according to the following formula: current HP<200, +100 HP up to class maximum. No boost if current HP>199; no penalty for using when not "sick" enough. It wouldn't be very useful for small Aliens, but they wouldn't have the cash, and would be better off with the far cheaper Imperviousness (if they chose to research the Strength techtree).

Note: The enhanced abilities would probably have to be buffed/nerfed accordingly, and a separate, "Enhancements" menu could utilized. Maybe you could "purchase" the enhancement from the OM or a Booster, and the Humans could get their "Enhancements" from the RC or Repeater, to get rid of increased traffic at the Armoury (OK it would increase traffic at the Booster, so, hrm...) Maybe have two new structures which are default in the base, a Research Computer (looks like a blue DefComp) and an Enhancement Booster (looks like a red Booster). You could "donate to the cause" (utilizing donate/share/overflow code) remotely, from the field, but you'd have to go to the new structure to "buy" the Enhancement.

Okay, I know that it sounds a lot like some other silly ideas that I've had, but I think the useful thing would be that these assets should already be available. Possibly players wouldn't be able to get the strongest item/ability in each category, at least not before SD (or some independent timelimit).

Cheers!

P.S. You can start screaming now.

P.P.S. I would say that Risujin has gotten something like this well started, with the Heaven of Relics lolmod he attached to the Arcade package. This might be one way to make a Research Mod with existing Quake III-type stuffs, which may be laying about, awaiting use.

P.P.S.S. I think the best feature is that you can research cool new toys, while you are playing Tremulous, and it wouldn't interfere with regular gameplay, but would really add an amped-up, research-race, RTS feel to the proceedings. It would still mean getting kills, but you wouldn't be able to waste good bounties on spurious loadouts, when the enemy could get something which is beyond the tools normally available, which could quickly end the game. You'd have to keep up, and research Ammo-Regen, Nailguns, or Medkits, to be able to compete with the Haste, Regen Buff, or Imperviousness of the Alien team. Otherwise they would end you soon. Perhaps you could donate as soon as you like, but you couldn't buy until s2, and you couldn't get the top enhancement in each silo until SD (depending on the op/admin's preference; or not, that bit can be worked out as well).

Very-Post: As a final note, another maybe: All techtree unlock stage points available to be reset by op/admin? I also like the idea of having a timelimit unlock the top tier in each tree, but only if you've also donated sufficient funds; e.g. - Railgun technology takes time, not just money, to research. You might put your money into technology which will not reach the field before a certain time no matter how much money you put into the project, just as in an actual logistical situation.

Invisible means transparent-ish, Cloak means translucent-ish; goons and rants can't be invisible (HP>199=Cloak only, sry!). Impervious means to splash damage like from a nade or a luci, on an indirect hit (when the damage goes everywhere, you are impervious to a certain percent of it) utilizing the Radiation Suit asset from Q3a.

Last really silly idea of the day: As you do research, explodable barrels build up near your Research Comp/Enhancement Booster, which need to be continuously moved outside the base by builders; they are the waste products of your research, and are dangerous in or near your base (they spawn randomly within your creep or power zone).

Respectfully offered as an alternative to share/donate/overflow, and also SD & Rampage, with no disrespect to the makers of those fine products.

@==Troy==, Odin, Plague Bringer: I combined your various ideas with my own crazy twist and produced a new monster. Tell you don't hate me for it.

Each of the successive techtrees represent the short game, the medium game, and the long game, in a way, to me at least.


guesstimates:
X_a approx. 150%
FF nerf approx 75%
X_b approx. 125%

[techhead]

I love the idea of a structure that make barrels that have to be moved a safe distance outside the base by a builder. I can see the ignored barrels getting sniped and causing a base-destroying chain reaction already.

[player1]

I personally think that it would be cool to use your Sentinel robot factory idea, and spawn increasingly lethal robots (who will attack any player, as you suggested) as more money is put into research, no matter by what team.

The more research you do, the more industrial waste near your research structure, and the more lethal the robots to be found in the map. Yet if you don't do research, the other team will get some tools that they can wipe you out with really quick, and you won't be able to stop feeding the robots.

Whaddya think?

Top Tier in each techtree unlocked by timelimit (possibly differing based on whether you choose short-term, medium-term or long-term strategy).

Short Term: NRG; Speed (easy robots, little waste) - x min to Top Tier (w/ funding)
Medium Term: Proj; Force (harder robots, more waste) - y min to Top Tier (w/ funding)
Long Term: Biotech; Strength (endboss robots, exploding waste) [Juggernaut; Berserker] z min to Top Tier (w/ funding)

It makes the idea of Research a deeper concern than just new toys; development of technology has inherent dangers, too.

[Circle]

Change them into creeps, something organic. Robots seem to be more of a human creation then a natural thing.

[player1]

Robots...

Sorry, old discussion. Take a look at this thread.

I suggested this... last year? Shows how much people search.

@Odin: I looked it up. That's where I got the neato Research Computer/Enhancement Booster idea. Thanks. I'm not really original; I just try to keep alive the best of the zillion jillion mod concepts & proposals, and combine them in new and weird ways, whilst aspiring to synthesis, balance and consensus.

@==Troy==, techhead, Odin, Plague Bringer, etc.: I guess what I'm suggesting would be research in addition to stages, not instead of stages. With a cool payoff (existing Q3a toys) and possibly horrendous side-effects (mean bots & lotsa barrels).

Hopefully, most of the described assets already exist, or could be re-purposed from ones that do. Many things would have to be tweaked and balanced, but it is nine free artifacts (with models!!!) and nine free abilities just sitting there waiting to be utilized, two structures that are re-skins of existing models, one weapon that is a re-skin of an existing model with a cut-and-paste weapon effect from an existing Alien attack, some nerfing and buffing for balance, the possible addition of industrial waste in the form of exploding barrels (which I have heard do exist), and if you ever get that off the ground you could add the robot factory in a subsequent release - Research: Robot Factory (different suite of programming concerns than the simple cut-and-paste proposed above).

So that's three versions/iterations/releases/minimods:

Utilize Q3a assets as described in first post today.
If that ever happened, add industrial waste.
If that ever happened, work on robot project.

Tremulous: The Researching (Research Arena) Sons of Brindus
Tremulous: The Glitchening (Industrial Arena) Clones of Ked
Tremulous: The Pathfinding (Robot Factory) Faction Three

Cheers!

The Frustrated Scifi Writer in Me sez:
The waste is the output of nanocybersymbiotic technology reverse-engineered from Alien artifacts (the Humans found an Enhancement Booster - literally a 3D printer utilizing local matter - and created the Research Computer to fabricate weapons on the spot as an incentive to the Clones of Ked Ambrit.) Read the original backstory here, which I take poetic license with, while hopefully remaining faithful to the spirit of. The Sentinel Robots are the only remants of the legendary, lost Third Race, a mystical, mythical group who never appear, only their long-idle servants, aroused by all of the technological research activity. Sensing sentience, they approach. Sensing violence, they reciprocate. Exploding barrels are the only technology the Aliens ever swiped from the Humans. They steal empty ones. That's what the Research Wars are all about. The Aliens are up to their necks in exploding stuffs, and don't know how to make barrels, so they have to invade Human outposts to steal them. They can't figure out why the Humans are so mad. They have piles of empty barrels everywhere. But the Haos Redro Corporation keeps sending more. Everything comes to the Company Systems in barrels: helmets, light armor, throwable forties, cigarettes that steal your HP (or it comes in those damned cheap destructible crates). If only they could find a way to sell the damn things to the bloodthirsty beasts...

with apologies to Timbo... even the backstory is open-source

P.S. In my version Ked Ambrit is the only survivor of that original mission to the Brindus system. Out of 25,000 hand-picked mercernaries, the toughest bunch of roughnecks in the Company Systems, the best private army Haos Redro ever had. All dead, except for one man. That's why they decided to clone him. And send him back. Hundreds of thousands of him: The Iterated Man. After literally years in the Combat Simulator, facing captured Aliens, they send him back to the lost worlds of the frontier: Karith and the Thermal Plant, the Nexus6 facility and Niveus. Even to the giant, infested Transit station in a huge vault beneath one planet's harsh exterior. Thank God they had the new Research Technology, the Aliens were gaining ground even now. He could be the last man between Humanity and a total infestation by murderous Alien monsters. All four million versions of him, scattered across the lonely wastes of the Infested Systems. He was little more than their garbage man, and yet he was the champion of all Humankind.

[==Troy==]

the only thing that you are forgetting... it will be a hell a lot of a mod to put all the new weps in, balance it and rest.

Id rather go with researching the current techs, and possibly improved attributes, but nothing more. Otherwise you are making 2.0 Trem