Author Topic: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2  (Read 102359 times)

MadRos

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2008, 05:36:05 pm »
I think you made a smart decision, since there was no chance of talking yourself out of this.

Wow.. u alone are enough of a reason to stay away from the tremulous forums.

The ones who really think that actual work or 'polishing' takes this insane amount of time about tremulous 1.2, should take a look at warsow which passed several milestones in less time. Its also free and its devs show much, much more effort for their community that trem community will never experience, and it has a thankful and ever growing community thx to That.
Theres a good reason why is this community became a small cage of lame flame-bots. Not because only assholes are crazy enough to still play with this beta, but because of frustration most ppl (well the ones who keeps talkin crap here, instead of actually playin) *became* assholes thx to the dead silence of developement (if it isnt just a myth anyways) after empty promises, yet there are still some crazed fanboys who justify this lol

Even a big "f**k you, we stopped developement, dont wait for nuts from us!" on the front page would be more satisfying than the no info we have now (even if there is actually progress.. somewhere). Not just coders play games nowadays and tellin f**k off and check svn (whatever that is), or spend hours to investigate for the slightest hint, is not a valid policy, if u want some ppl to play this game.

Then there was one guy who actualy wanted to do something publicly, and give something to the community and u guys who think yourselves as some mighty führer of trem for some misterious reason, just flamed him to the ground. Nice job.

Such a shame that such great game idea will be forgotten for good and just decay.

p.s. dont bother to reply with the usual flaming, i wont bother reading it.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 05:45:33 pm by MadRos »

Rocinante

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2008, 05:38:43 pm »
p.s. dont bother to reply, i wont bother reading it.

Then why bother posting it?  I'll do you one better, I didn't bother to read it :>
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Lava Croft

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2008, 05:50:10 pm »
I think you made a smart decision, since there was no chance of talking yourself out of this.
Wow.. u alone are enough of a reason to stay away from the tremulous forums.
Bye!

[EDIT]Why did you change "p.s. dont bother to reply, i wont bother reading it" into "p.s. dont bother to reply with the usual flaming, i wont bother reading it." after Rocinante posted?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 05:58:27 pm by Lava Croft »

Prince_Andrei

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2008, 06:39:21 pm »
edit: Incidently, most said to go ask on IRC, not go ask the devs on irc.  Maybe noone said to ask the devs in IRC, you can go read the whole series of posts again though, I have work to do.

FWIW, the first responses to Ender specifically said devs. You were more clear and helpful. In fact, I think you summed up the issue quite nicely when you said:

Quote
the problem is that noone who bitches about how information needs to be collated is willing to do just that

Realistically, coordinating all of this would be great experience for a coder who is usually in the weeds. I volunteer Ender! :P

Lava Croft

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2008, 06:54:03 pm »
But it already is coordinated just fine, and Ender hasn't exactly shown a great insight into anything, yet.

David

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2008, 08:11:00 pm »
The first post said to Ender specifically to talk to them.  What with how he was trying a hostile take over and all.
And were not "flaming" because he wants to help.  Were attacking him as he seems to have no idea how the world works and proper society operates.  You don't just go and steal an active project.

@MadRos:  That fact that you couldn't be bothered to spell anything properly and have no regard for proper grammar makes you look juvenile.
And everything you said is either factually incorrect or so outrageous that none of it deserves a real reply.
Rewrite it in English and I'll tell you why you're wrong.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 08:33:37 pm by David »
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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Ender

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2008, 08:55:57 pm »
Thanks for the support Prince Andrei. I appreciate your posts here.

FWIW, the first responses to Ender specifically said devs. You were more clear and helpful. In fact, I think you summed up the issue quite nicely when you said:

Quote
the problem is that noone who bitches about how information needs to be collated is willing to do just that

I'll agree with Andrei, telling someone who is interested in development that they should go track down devs on IRC is horribly inefficient. First, there isn't a list of currently recognized devs. I could go into IRC and say "hey, devs!" and see who responds...but that seems about as useful as coming here and and asking Lava Croft for helpful, insightful commentary. I could do it, and I'd get some random responses, but the likelihood that at any given time I would get a response that actually fits my criteria is very small. Especially where we're talking about multiple IRC channels.

Then again, I recognize that it takes a great deal of work to collate information, and we'd rather have 'good' coders working on code, not on documentation. Of course, I put 'good' in quotations because I would define a good coder as one who documents what they've done themselves, which means that a good coder would be producing documentation...but now I digress. If you'd like to define a good coder as one who writes fail-proof code and nothing more, you may. Then the argument holds that you'd want that coder coding and someone else writing up documentation. Seems like that is where we're at. Since I'm now the one complaining about a lack of documentation, it only makes sense that I volunteer to collate the information. Otherwise I'm just a mouthy ass.

So, I'm going to try to spend some time in IRC meeting the real devs. Then I'll start posting about what they are doing and what has been done, if they choose to talk to me about it. Then this whole business will be behind us, I hope. I then get to help with 1.2 without a hostile takeover, and hopefully the community will benefit with more information. Problem solved.

Quote
Realistically, coordinating all of this would be great experience for a coder who is usually in the weeds. I volunteer Ender! :P

Thanks Andrei, glad I have someone's vote already.

@MadRos: Thanks for seeing the other side of things. I didn't think your English was poor, though you did use some 'modern abbreviations' that made it a little harder to read, but overall, quite understandable.

FisherP

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2008, 01:43:23 am »
Have you ever talked to Timbo on IRC... over a year ago I asked when 1.2 was going to be out, he just said "Thursday". I find kelvarman and the others on the channel to be more helpful.

I do agree with a comment made above that the Devs should focus on the development, and let others do the fielding of these sorts of questions.

@Lava Croft... and others: I will try an experiment, since I'm always crying out that there doesn't seem to be any goal posts. I will, over this weekend hop onto IRC and ask for these goal posts and where we are up to. I will post up somewhere, either in this thread or another exactly what response I get. If I get something worth while I will collate it in something hopefully concise, even if I don't understand it (since I'm not a tremulous developer and only toy around with coding for my own purposes)

Lava Croft

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2008, 02:06:57 am »
I can only agree on one thing: Stop saying what the Devs should and should not do. You haven't said what they should and should not for the past 8 years, so please stick to that and do it the coming 8 years either. Just because Tremulous is popular now does not mean you hold any right to make demands of any kind. This is just plain ridiculous. If you want to keep the devs away from the community, this behaviour is surely the way to go.

A second note: The people who are actually working on Tremulous never needed a forum thread like this to get to work, did they?

Bullislander05

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2008, 03:05:39 am »
I can only agree on one thing: Stop saying what the Devs should and should not do. You haven't said what they should and should not for the past 8 years, so please stick to that and do it the coming 8 years either. Just because Tremulous is popular now does not mean you hold any right to make demands of any kind. This is just plain ridiculous. If you want to keep the devs away from the community, this behaviour is surely the way to go.

A second note: The people who are actually working on Tremulous never needed a forum thread like this to get to work, did they?

That's about the most ridiculous thing I've heard in ages.  What good is a community if nobody is allowed to voice their opinions and suggest how to do things?  Why don't the dev's go jump into a sheltered hole then, take nobodies advice, and release 1.2 in 6 more years.  I'm terribly sorry if the devs have no social skills at all and can't take any suggestions.  Maybe in that case Ender should be the new dev team, by himself.  He's the only one that's letting people know "Hey, I'm doing this.  What do you guys think?"  Like whoever it was said above, no normal player of the game who has no interest in coding/modding tremulous is going to hunt around IRC for public information about the next release.  Even then, some people who ARE interested won't know where to go, because of the absolutely pathetic release of information.  Go with the guy, accept that he's here to help, and listen to his suggestions instead of getting your ass in a bunch over a name.

Now that trem actually has a player-base, the players are going to suggest ways to improve the game in the future.  Giving previous dev's this "Invincibility to criticism" is absurd.  It's a god-damned open-source GPL'ed game.  Anybody can do anything with it as they would like.  Hell, anybody can call anybody else lazy, or point out their flaws too.

The responses I saw in this thread to Ender's completely legitimate post made me furious.  I'm used to people in the modding section who post ideas without doing shit being shot down, but look at what Ender's done.  He's improving the game, adding his choices, and calling it whatever he rightfully wants and can.  Then, when he lets you guys know, you throw a shitstorm of flames at him.

And one more thing.  You can call the dev team whatever you want.  They get the credit for making the original game, but anybody can create the next version of the game.  Nowhere in the law does it state that Ender can't release 1.2 before the devs if he believes his changes are good enough to make 1.2.  Ender can release version 1000 if he wanted to, and it wouldn't make a damn.  One thing you have to realize though, is that yes, the dev team made an incredible accomplishment in creating the original mod, but nobody is official.  You can call them the official dev team, but Ender has just as much a right of criticizing them and suggesting what to do as any joe schmo you find on the street.

And Lava, regarding your last post, are you completely forgetting that Ender is saying "I've DONE the work, and I'm nearly ready to finalize it"?  He's not asking for help.  He's saying "Look, this is what I've DONE, what do you think?"  This thread should be considering his changes, and making suggestions about them, instead of bashing the guy because he worked for the interest of the game.

It's assholes like you, Lava, who can't be pleased with anything unless it's "Official" that made me quit Trem.  Go double-check what type of game you're playing and post accordingly.

Ender, good work.  I'd appreciate you releasing this, just to say that "FUCK YOU" to these assholes in this thread that take no appreciation of your hard work.

-Bull

Lava Croft

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2008, 04:30:52 am »
I think I have nothing to add to this classic case of self-ownage. Good work.

Lakitu7

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2008, 08:30:06 am »
I'd have more respect for people who aren't the devs if they'd quit adding all sorts of terrible things that either make Trem more like a deathmatch or create a bunch of made-for-abuse admin commands.

Based on Ender's page, he has or intends to do a lot of both of these things, which means he's clearly taking the game in the wrong direction. No thanks.

Kaleo

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2008, 10:41:03 am »
I think that Lava is right (as he usually is, I am reluctant to say). The devs have not been seen on the forums in a while. While I'm sure they are taking players advice for changes, I don't think that they want people coming in a telling them what to do.

I also fully agree with Lakitu7. Tremulous is supposed to be unique. It's not a deathmatch game, and over-the-top admin commands are stupid (I however fully endorse the great ones, such as votekick reasons and such).

Tremulous is the property of Darklegion Development. If you want, go make a mod for Trem, or better yet, go make your own game.
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tuple

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2008, 02:06:15 pm »
Have you ever talked to Timbo on IRC... over a year ago I asked when 1.2 was going to be out, he just said "Thursday".

Thats a very old joke around here.  It predates me, probably by years.  About the hundredth time you are asked when * will be released, you'll start saying "Thursday" too.

I relate it to the old contractor joke used liberally in the movie "The Money Pit" where the contractor is asked when they will be finished and always, without fail, answer "2 weeks".

Prince_Andrei

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2008, 03:20:24 pm »
Lakitu7:
Quote
Based on Ender's page, he has or intends to do a lot of both of these things, which means he's clearly taking the game in the wrong direction. No thanks.

Fortunately, he's genuinely interested in getting input from others, which is why this discussion is taking place. I like some of these changes better than others. I dislike virtually all the so-called official 1.2 gameplay changes that are currently being tested. We all have our opinions. Ender has both the motivation and skill to do something with his, and he's nice enough to talk to those of us who lack one or both.

The people who accomplish things in life are the ones who aren't satisfied. Ender has every right to try to improve things, irrespective of what's happened in the past. That's open development for you!

And Kaleo, as Bull noted very clearly, the game is GPL'd.

==Troy==

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2008, 03:32:55 pm »
The game IS GPLed, which still does not mean that you can use the Name of the product to release your version of it. Call it Tremulous Ender's Edition, but not Tremulous XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX. It is actually stated in GPL license afaik.

Hence unless the current development team will allow you to release Tremulous 1.2, you have no right to use the name of the project for your own modification.

All above said has no intention to either support this topic or opposite. I have no opinioin and do not care of whether this will happen or not.

tuple

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #76 on: February 15, 2008, 04:31:52 pm »
I more concerned that all these admin cheats that everyone is putting in will ruin tremulous.  Who's gonna want to play tremulous if everywhere they go they get slapped, or admins run cheat clients cause they aren't restricted to running pure clients, or cause they alone can build instantly by binding !toggleinstantbuild into their build commands, or everyone on the admins team suddenly has luci cannons.

If you don't think it will happen, I'm here to inform you that it already has.  If you think making those cheats easier to use will make for a better game, then you are very naive.  There are servers that I actively avoid cause I have seen admins cheat, usually multiple times.

On the bright side, I can advertise what build I'm using and get good players who are avoiding the cheat infested builds.  Hmm, maybe this will work out to everyone's benefit.  The cheaters will be much more obvious as will the malicious admins.

Ender

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #77 on: February 15, 2008, 05:02:54 pm »
I more concerned that all these admin cheats that everyone is putting in will ruin tremulous.  Who's gonna want to play tremulous if everywhere they go they get slapped, or admins run cheat clients cause they aren't restricted to running pure clients, or cause they alone can build instantly by binding !toggleinstantbuild into their build commands, or everyone on the admins team suddenly has luci cannons.

If you don't think it will happen, I'm here to inform you that it already has.  If you think making those cheats easier to use will make for a better game, then you are very naive.  There are servers that I actively avoid cause I have seen admins cheat, usually multiple times.

On the bright side, I can advertise what build I'm using and get good players who are avoiding the cheat infested builds.  Hmm, maybe this will work out to everyone's benefit.  The cheaters will be much more obvious as will the malicious admins.

I agree with you on the abuse side - the items I'm working on adding (and have already added) open the door very wide for admin abuse. I've posted as much on my page. We have all been to those awful servers where the admins have gone nuts and ruin things for everyone - S11.info comes to mind very quickly. The reason I have put all of these things in is not for admin abuse - it is because originally I wanted to create a training server, a place where people could learn the game. I want a place where someone could say 'gee, I'd love to practice with a luci today' and they could find an admin and rather than having to waste time with the admins killing themselves to give the person stage 3 and credits, the admin can just do !setstage humans 3, !give playerX luci. All of these commands are going to be controlled via server-side cvars, and cvars can be made visible to clients so that you know what you are getting into. More importantly, if a server is filled with jerk admins, don't go there. We all do it, I have a very short list of servers I like, places I trust to have a fair game and good players, and I play there. That's what the Favorites list is for.

Now, that all said, yes, I can see your point, admin abuse will get worse with these commands. But, if I have the option of giving more power to everyone, I'm going to take it. It's the fault of individual admins if they use power to be douchebags. Admins who do so will eventually find themselves with an empty server.

As for the GPL'd issue, I haven't read the license, but it seems like a natural thing to protect the original name. Thanks for pointing that out. I no longer have any intention of releasing 1.2 myself. Though I still have yet to find any devs in IRC.

[edit]
Okay, I did find a dev on IRC. Timbo. He seemed nice enough. Anyways, just wanted to amend my previous statement, in case people got the idea that I was saying devs aren't on IRC. They are, you just have to hit the right time.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 08:51:54 pm by Ender »

kevlarman

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #78 on: February 15, 2008, 05:09:17 pm »
The reason I have put all of these things in is not for admin abuse - it is because originally I wanted to create a training server, a place where people could learn the game.
lakitu's devmap that disables god mode (and noclip i think) does this much better in my opinion, without the potential for abuse.
Quote
Though I still have yet to find any devs in IRC.
funny, i talked to 3 of them last night.
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David

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #79 on: February 15, 2008, 05:16:06 pm »
try #tremulous-dev @ chat.freenode.net
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.

Lakitu7

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #80 on: February 15, 2008, 05:32:18 pm »
Yes, training is what devmap is for. If things only work in devmap, then you can't be playing a normal game until WHOOPS NOW THERE'S AN !EARTHQUAKE LOLOLOL.

Of course people with The Wrong Idea™ will modify anything you restrict to only devmap to work all the time, but there's a responsibility as a good coder to do the right thing and let people modify their godawful hax themselves. Though in your case, you're modding killerHP to work outside devmap, so you seem to be in the second camp.

Prince_Andrei

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #81 on: February 15, 2008, 07:49:50 pm »
I more concerned that all these admin cheats that everyone is putting in will ruin tremulous.  <...> There are servers that I actively avoid cause I have seen admins cheat, usually multiple times.

I just don't see how admin cheating, no matter what new commands are added, can be anything more than a very minor problem. It is several orders of magnitude less so than the proliferation of increasingly sophisticated aimbots. Walk through this with me. An aimbotter can hide and change his identity and hop from server to server. An admin is tied to a server. Any cheating large enough to have an impact on the game will be noticed if done multiple times. The server will get a reputation for cheating admins and will be avoided by all who care about such things. Just like Tuple and Ender and everyone else, I avoid servers where I think cheating occurs. The good servers with big, loyal communities are full of players who scream bloody murder if they think they see admin cheating. On DS we do aimbot investigations almost daily. Allegations of admin abuse are very, very rare and much simpler to resolve.

Lava Croft

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #82 on: February 15, 2008, 07:59:33 pm »
Adding features that serve no real purpose is a good way to make your game suck beyond belief. Also, DS must be some sort of aimbot magnet, since we have like one aimbotter per every 3 months. Aimbot are not a problem at all in Tremulous.

whitebear

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2008, 08:14:42 pm »
Cheating admins just reduce amount of players that play more than once.

tuple

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #84 on: February 15, 2008, 08:38:23 pm »
Cheating admins just reduce amount of players that play more than once.

Exactly.  What better way to shrink the player base?

Everyone seems to think that devs not building what the player base wants is bad for tremulous.  Thats not really true.  Many of the things that are wanted are pointless and stupid.  See the !poison command for an example.  People will continue to play tremulous because it is a fun game that can be played fairly.  If you can't find a fair fight or a server were you aren't treated like shit, you won't play for much longer.

There is also a considerable difference between cheating players and admins.  Cheating players manipulate their client.  Cheating admins manipulate the server.  Thats orders of magnitude in difference, and considerably more difficult to catch. 

David

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #85 on: February 15, 2008, 08:47:50 pm »
The server will get a reputation for cheating admins and will be avoided by all who care about such things.

Counter example:  SST.
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.

Prince_Andrei

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #86 on: February 15, 2008, 09:03:27 pm »
Aimbot are not a problem at all in Tremulous.

Most preposterous statement on this thread so far, by a mile. I don't think you're really that naive, so you must be arguing for argument's sake. The bots are widely available, with settings meant to look like real playing--including misses, scattering aim, no-shake for chainguns, wallhacks, etc. If you haven't seen the new bots (not the crappy, snappy ones), you'll be amazed at how real they look. We've had admin clinics to help people learn to recognize them. I see them on every server I play on, without exception. They are out there and used. Try to give a logical reason why aimbotters would only go to a server that is extremely good at catching them.

David, I knew someone would bring up SST. I stopped playing there after seeing admins repeatedly cheat, including one using an aimbot--a horribly obvious one at that. I don't know that their players necessarily define cheating the same way most of us would, and that's fine. If someone wants to make an all cheat server, they can, and people will probably play there.

techhead

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #87 on: February 15, 2008, 09:07:07 pm »
I remember one dude came onto a server trying to pedal his aimbot. Then we asked for a demonstration, he aim looked exactly like an aimbot, except it didn't hit stuff at all. Needless to say, don't bother getting an aimbot, they don't exactly have quality control regulations.
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Survivor

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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #88 on: February 15, 2008, 09:33:01 pm »
Aimbot are not a problem at all in Tremulous.

Most preposterous statement on this thread so far, by a mile. I don't think you're really that naive, so you must be arguing for argument's sake. The bots are widely available, with settings meant to look like real playing--including misses, scattering aim, no-shake for chainguns, wallhacks, etc. If you haven't seen the new bots (not the crappy, snappy ones), you'll be amazed at how real they look. We've had admin clinics to help people learn to recognize them. I see them on every server I play on, without exception. They are out there and used. Try to give a logical reason why aimbotters would only go to a server that is extremely good at catching them.

David, I knew someone would bring up SST. I stopped playing there after seeing admins repeatedly cheat, including one using an aimbot--a horribly obvious one at that. I don't know that their players necessarily define cheating the same way most of us would, and that's fine. If someone wants to make an all cheat server, they can, and people will probably play there.

If someone ever makes an aimbot good enough to be undetectable, he has ,in effect, created something akin to natural good aim. And I don't think that is as bad since if you're up against good players you will encounter it anyway, consider it training. Maybe that is why you're seeing aimbots on every server without fail, your detection method might be including some natural good players as well.
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Re: I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2
« Reply #89 on: February 15, 2008, 10:06:16 pm »
Most preposterous statement on this thread so far, by a mile. I don't think you're really that naive, so you must be arguing for argument's sake.

Actually, you are probably kicking old school players as aimbotters.  We have logs going back a ways, and have found some great, old school, pre-aimbot players that get kicked for aimbotting.  You may not recall, but it used to be a badge of honor to be kicked for botting before there were aimbots.  It was a badge of honor until it got annoying that is.

Maybe Lava's server and others doesn't have quite the "aimbot" problem cause they know their playerbase, and know who the good players are for the most part.  Or maybe they've been playing for so long that they know an actual good player when they see one.  You may think they're being fooled, but it may be you who are fooled.  There are ways you can tell.  An aimbot can help you aim and even let you see the enemy, but it can't show you the RTS aspects of the game, and it can't teach you the peculiarities of the maps.  It can't tell you which buildings to attack first, or how to build.

I used to sit on my server and spec great players before the aimbots and now I see lots of people that can't tell the good players from the botters.