Repeaters should be less restricted?

[Le Compilateur]

I think humans should be able to build repeaters even in areas which already have power. Aliens can build as many eggs (their version of repeaters) as they like in a single area, so if one egg in an outpost goes down, the whole thing doesn't fall apart.

I dunno, tell me how right/wrong this idea is.

[techhead]

The problem here lies with the ability to build an unlimited number of free buildings.
If repeaters acted as described, then people could build lots of fences out of buildings that take 3 tyrant hits, 3 goon barbs, have a small hit-box, and cannot be jumped over by Tyrants. Also, these fences would provide power for any buildings defending the fence until either the defenses or the entire defense was destroyed.
If repeaters were not free, then humans would be even more reluctant to build forward bases.

I think that the best compromise would be to lower the minimum radius to 400 for repeaters and 800 for reactors, so that forward bases can be powered by 2 repeaters, and hop-scotching with repeaters and defenses would be easier.

[Le Compilateur]

Hmm, good point. I suppose the aliens need this advantage more than the humans.

I think, however, that I will still include in my QVM a cvar called g_allowMultipleRepeaters in case I do want to allow it. Oh, and I will also make repeaters cost BPs. After all, it costs BPs to build eggs...

[Divmax]

Your forgetting something...
Eggs - Provide creep and SPAWNS.
Repeaters - Provide power ONLY.

[Vamprah]

Your forgetting something...
Eggs - Provide creep and SPAWNS.
Repeaters - Provide power ONLY.

pwned

[blood2.0]

ya i could barricade my base with a repeater wall and i could maintain it on sd  .  i wish aliens had a repeater i hate waisting 10 bp just to build an outer base. eggs should cost 5 bp

[Le Compilateur]

I know eggs provide creep and spawns, whereas repeaters only provide power.

This is why my QVM causes repeaters to cost 5 BP, so you can't build repeater walls without wasting power you could spend on something else.

[Paradox]

Brilliant! Make it so when a repeater goes down during sd, it cant be rebuilt!

[Le Compilateur]

Right. If you kill an egg in SD, anything it "powers" dies (assuming there are no other sources of creep) and you can't rebuild it. The same should go for repeaters. It already goes for telenodes and everything else except the reactor.

[benmachine]

The strength of tremulous comes from the presence of balanced but different teams. Saying "the aliens have X, so the humans should have X too" or vice versa is fallacious.

[Vamprah]

thank you benmachine, 

[Le Compilateur]

Perhaps it's not such a good idea to be able to build more than one in an area. But there is already a loophole in the code that allows you to build more than one as long as none of them are finished being built.

[Nux]

The trouble here is, I don't see it as that useful to have multiple repeaters in the same spot (ESPECIALLY if they cost bp). Though it might be helpful in some very special cases, in the majority of cases I don't think it will matter.

If you want to build outside your base with a repeater which is protected by your base, I wouldn't call an outpost or any defences at that distance helpful (generally). It's neither close enough to protect the reac well, nor is it far enough to call an outpost.

If you want to build multiple in one spot to make it harder to power down the outpost, the fact that the alien managed to kill one repeater doesn't bode well for any others you have there. Granted it makes it tougher for the aliens where they could usually bring down an outpost fast, I feel as though you're putting too much emphasis on a self defending outpost. You'll generally want most of your defence (and so most of your BP) to be at your base where it's keeping your reac up, whereas the outpost works best as small as possible (like a repeater with medi and make sure to take an energy weapon) so that it doesn't matter so much if it goes down. The people using the outpost can be the defence now they don't have to return to the base.

[a Turret]

You are totally going at this in the wrong view...

You keep on saying "Why does it work for aliens but not for humans".... Well of course, the whole point of the game is 2 totally different species battling it out and somehow its still balanced despite all the differences.

[Le Compilateur]

Okay, nix this idea. But I'm still putting a cvar for enabling this in my QVM in case someone wants to use it.

This thread can be locked now since it has outlived its usefulness.

[Kaleo]

I think that they should be allowed to overlap, but not too much.

[Le Compilateur]

Thank you for your opinion. Now will someone please lock this thread?

[Paradox]

Why, its worthy of debate.

[Le Compilateur]

Okay, fair enough.

For it: You can kill an entire human outpost just by taking out its (single) repeater (although it is often the builder's fault for putting it in a location where you can take it out). This could be prevented by allowing multiple repeaters.

Against it: The whole point of Tremulous is having equal but totally different teams. Plus, to combat repeater fences you would probably have to make them cost BP, and then you wouldn't be able to rebuild them in SD, which would be bad.

[Paradox]

Alien outposts are much easier to kill, by your same principle. An egg has lower HP than a repeater, and when the egg is destroyed, all unpowered alien structures die. Human structures just stop working.

[Le Compilateur]

Oh, I forgot about that. Let me compare the two sides for a second:

• = pro
- = con

Aliens                                                                 Humans
- Structures die when out of creep                                     - Only one repeater in an area
• Can build multiple eggs in the same area                             • Structures don't die when out of power
• Defenses regenerate                                                  • Repeaters have more HP than eggs
• Can have spread-out bases                                            - Bases must be compact to stand up to repeated attacks

Interesting. Aliens have an advantage in the building area (bases can be pretty much decentralized, except for the Overmind) but they have a disadvantage when it comes to fighting (the humans' long-range weapons).

[Nux]

I hope you're not basing that off that short list of pros and cons. For instance, the very fact that the humans have long range weapons puts the alien base at a disadvantage in many situations. Also the human's merely having long range weapons doesn't make them the better at offense; if anything, the humans are not as offensive because they're not as agile.

Don't think things are so clear-cut. There are many scenarios with their own different pros and cons for both teams.

[Le Compilateur]

I wasn't basing that off the list, I thought of it in the middle of making the list and decided to write it.

Aliens do have an advantage in the building area since they can build almost anywhere (not being limited to the floor like the humans) and from what I've seen, they also build slightly faster. In terms of individual structures, however, they are sorely disadvantaged due to the low HP of eggs (compared to repeaters) and the fact that most of their structures fire in a line/cone and can't point at incoming enemies. Their bases can be more spread-out than the humans' but are also extremely vulnerable to weapons such as the Lucifer Cannon (or even a plain old blaster if the attacker has enough time).

Humans' bases are excellent at defense but must be more compact. I have rarely seen a spread-out human base withstand even a single tyrant attack. Their structures don't regenerate but on the other hand, they don't die without a power source. The defensive structures, if deployed properly, tend to be excellent at repelling most attacks.

It's true that humans are less agile than aliens and they don't regenerate, but they can attack at long distances with weapons that do a huge amount of DPS. They also have jetpacks. In my experience, jetpack + Mass Driver = a lot of dead dretches.

The aliens have less class configurations (just six base classes and four advanced classes), whereas the humans have very many configurations (luci + bsuit, for example) that are each suited for different situations.

In essence, the teams are completely different but more or less equal, the exact level of equality depending on the map.

[Nux]

In terms of individual structures, however, they are sorely disadvantaged due to the low HP of eggs (compared to repeaters) and the fact that most of their structures fire in a line/cone and can't point at incoming enemies.

When you say most, you mean trappers? I wouldn't call that most

You've made valid points for specific situations, I just hope you don't forget the many variations of situation which makes the game more interesting. Acid tubes for example:

• Seperate tubes might be too weak individually to stop a human running through your base
• Seperate tubes can be effective at slowing the enemy down either by their creep or by the human having to kill them one by one
• Bunches of tubes can be easily killed off by splash damage weapons (such as grenades or lucifer cannon shots)
• Bunches of tubes can inflict massive damage over a short amount of time

Also if your team is poor in defending for whatever reason, your excellent offense can make your disadvantage irrelevant.

[Le Compilateur]

I meant both acid tubes and trappers. And when I said "most", I meant most of the ones that are capable of attacking.

Good point about the variations. In general, however, the points I mentioned tend to influence gameplay everywhere.

Poor base defense = no base. Similarly, bad teamwork = no team. Like you said (I'll paraphrase in more general terms), much of the game depends on your ability to work with your teammates and focus on all aspects of gameplay, not just one.

[Paradox]

Yes, they are capable of attacking. But they can be destroyed without doing any damage to a human. A human just has to hit them from down a corridor.

Aliens lack that luxury.

[Le Compilateur]

That's what I meant by alien bases being vulnerable to the humans' weapons .

[Nux]

This is why I think you're missing my point. You've taken one scenario (e.g. tubes can be shot at from a distance) and ignored the other possibilities (e.g. tubes are put round corners).

It's all in the positioning, so if you're putting them in a place where the human can shoot at them from safety and you want the humans damaged --> you're putting them in the wrong place. This doesn't mean putting them in firing range can't be helpful, it just means they slow them down while they shoot them long enough for aliens to come in and stop them.

Defences are there to SLOW THE ENEMY DOWN. Not to indefinitely hold them off. That's the players' jobs.

[Le Compilateur]

I realize that. No defenses will fend off enemies indefinitely without actual backup by players, and you could certainly put tubes around corners to catch humans by surprise.

When I said "That's what I meant blah blah blah", I was agreeing with what you said about humans just having to hit alien structures from down a corridor.

As for positioning: out of sight but very close to entry points is a good place for tubes and trappers.

Now can we please get back to the topic of repeaters?

[AzaToth]

Now can we please get back to the topic of repeaters?

My idea in fact

I agree that there shouldn't be allowed to have more than one repeater per "area", but I also agree that it should be possible to build an repeater inside an area. I have the idea that if you build an repeater inside an area, than when it's finished build, then the old repeater are destroyed. How it should be handled inside the reactor area, is a matter to discuss for the wise men.

This would also take care of the lupehole repeaters, as the last repeater built wins.

/Carl