Questions From a Newbie

[Wordplay]

Hello everyone. Just decided to take a few seconds to ask for opinions and give a bit of feedback, hopefully sparking a bit of discussion on the way. First off, I really have to congrulate the authors for choosing such a great genre, which -unfortunately- has got way too little attention from the industry. I have been a long-term player of Natural Selection (a HL1 mod), which is very similar to Tremulous, but unfortunately that mod is pretty much dead now. So naturally Tremulous got my attention right after I read about it on one of our local (and popular) magazine's websites.

After playing it, however, I do have a few questions. Why is it so that even though the description says that Tremulous is "a team based FPS with elements of an RTS" -game with so little emphasize on RTS? I mean: why can't you build as much as your resources allow and why is it so difficult to build anything in overall? Why is it so that frags are so important if the emphasize is on team-gaming? And the most important: why the game is so fast? Which one is it: a frag'em'up or team'em'up?

I'll be watching this topic, so do reply.

[KorJax]

I agree on the fact that the game is definatly mmore Team-Deathmatch based than RTS based.

Unforutnaltly, at th emoment some of the reasons why might be engine limitations, or just not in the current version.

Some popular suggestions include being able to drop markers or "command waypoints", and for the humans to be alot slower, especially with a Bsuit on.  So i definatly think that Trem will improve on the "tactical" level eventually.


However, also realize that a team that has a bad base or no builder at all, they almost always loose.  I can often save a semi-noob team from destruction by intelligently and swiftly moving the base and building up some defense and expanding eggs (if your alien).  Sure, some of the "deathmatch" players might not notice much a difference, but in the long run, you just gave your team a substantual advantage over the other team with better defense and quicker response times.

Many times, against experienced players that know to go for bases (if they are going against aliens only) and not purly the other team, the team that didnt have a builder will get owned.

Such as, you can easily see an alien base with no builder maintaining it and/or moving it get owned by 2 or so pain saws and a some more people being back-up.

A proper base and move and expansion by the aliens however would of made this task hell.



So yeah, right now Trem is more team deathmatch based ATM, but it still has bases, and they do factor out who will win the battle.  The team that messes up thier base part of the game will lose, weather that be because of not building, or building like a noob or at the wrong times (such as moving reactor whilst under attack).

[[db@]Megabite]

After playing it, however, I do have a few questions. Why is it so that even though the description says that Tremulous is "a team based FPS with elements of an RTS" -game with so little emphasize on RTS? I mean: why can't you build as much as your resources allow and why is it so difficult to build anything in overall? Why is it so that frags are so important if the emphasize is on team-gaming? And the most important: why the game is so fast? Which one is it: a frag'em'up or team'em'up?

- "little emphasis" is just your special point of view. Someone only or mostly playing shooters will most likely think there is a big emphasis on RTS. The goal of the game is similar to an RTS as is the whole base building and stage stuff.

- You can build as much as your resources (build points, usually 100) allow. So I do not quite understand that one.

- Just holding a construction tool or selecting a granger, hitting a button and clicking a menu to build is difficult? Had figured it out in seconds... building a well workin base is, of course, something that has to do with experience... as with any other game, especially RTS.

- You can only effectively kill in a team in this game, so measuring frags is a good way to measure a team.

- The game is only as fast as your team... with a good team it can be very fast. If you think about movement speed... it is based on Quake3 and its movement system. It has its roots in the Gloom Quake2 Mod, in which aliens were equally fast.
BTW, Natural Selection is a Gloom heir as well... I tried it a while after quitting Gloom, but did not stay long. Although that commander mode is a nice idea... well, too much RTS for me and too many clueless commanders around...

Danny

[Wordplay]

BTW, Natural Selection is a Gloom heir as well... I tried it a while after quitting Gloom, but did not stay long. Although that commander mode is a nice idea... well, too much RTS for me and too many clueless commanders around...

Actually, I loved it back when these RTS elements actually mattered and used to command quite a lot. Unfortunately, the dev.team decided to "balance" things out and the result was a bland frag'em'up where commanding required you to be one of those multi-tasking gurus who can do everything under 5 minutes. (Yes, I'm a disgruntled vet. So sue me.) Argh.  :-?

The game is only as fast as your team... with a good team it can be very fast.

I mean the overall feeling when comparing to NS. You have played it, so you probably know that the difference is absolutely huge and this affects everything. Aiming, tactics, gameplay, atmosphere, etc... Did they intend Tremulous to be a "Fast and furious multiplayer first-person shooter" or is there going to be a change in the near future...?

so measuring frags is a good way to measure a team.

But good indivituals can twist the score, no? You know, the same as in Counter Strike; a few good players kill the new ones and thus keep the scores up while the others run around doing "things." So is it a good way to measure a team? Sorry, but I really have to doubt this.

You can build as much as your resources (build points, usually 100) allow. So I do not quite understand that one.

Take this scenario: builders can construct the central node where they want and then build the other structures there. No caps, no limitations as to where it can be placed, and that's it. Why the base has to be placed to the initial starting area?

Just holding a construction tool or selecting a granger, hitting a button and clicking a menu to build is difficult?

Not difficult, but remember that I'm an old NS player. That game had simply the best on-screen GUI for things like this. Perhaps partly thanks to Half Life. When comparing these two, it is easy to say which one is more intuitive to use. Also count in the previous part about building area/number restrictions.

The goal of the game is similar to an RTS as is the whole base building and stage stuff.

So why does it seem to me and KorJax like they aren't that important? Okay, you can say that this depends of your POV, but... Well, just play the game and tell me the contrary with honest face. I'm sure we all remember "Team Fortress Classic" (some perhaps have also tried Science & Industry) and what kind of a role the structures had there; isn't it almos similar in Tremulous?

Some popular suggestions include being able to drop markers or "command waypoints", and for the humans to be alot slower, especially with a Bsuit on. So i definatly think that Trem will improve on the "tactical" level eventually.

Hehe, now that reminds me of NS again. Which is good, because it's a good game gone wrong and the devs of Tremulous have a chance to learn from their mistakes. But let's be honest: they never read these messages and if they accidentally do, they sniff at them.

also realize that a team that has a bad base or no builder at all, they almost always loose. I can often save a semi-noob team from destruction by intelligently and swiftly moving the base and building up some defense and expanding eggs (if your alien).

Of course, but it has to be really, really swiftly in a fast-paced game like this. Not exactly strategy and foreseen planning, but still something. But why it couldn't be even more?

Many times, against experienced players that know to go for bases

Sure do, but doesn't that require a bit of self-sacrifice and dedication for the team? You know that once people get to a certain skill-level, the game turns ugly and if there is no absolute need for something (like team-game), it will be ditched stat. Besides, like in games like UT2k4, isn't it simply so much easier to get stuck to fragging other players?

There, a few thoughts. Hope someone can explain these to me.  

[Survivor]

Tremulous isn't NS first of all. Timbo and the rest of the devs aren't remaking ns and they do read what is posted. Tremulous is in the same area but doesn't intend to redo it.

Teamplayers own everything but the most skilled of players (only few come to mind), but only if they truly work as a team, not just move in groups.

Score isn't everything, I've seen teams with 4 times the frags of the other teams lose just because they were going for the frags not the kill. Fragging endlessly doesn't win games, basekills do.

The base mostly being placed around the om/reactor is a restricting measure intented in gameplay. Also you're against restricting through buildpoints, have you ever done a real egghunt against a good alien team?

[Catalyc]

You can move and build bases anywhere you like, I think tremulous is much better than NS as far as building goes, the trick is getting your teammates to cover the builder during the overmind/reactor relocation.

NS is based on HL which is a slow game anyways. Even though I mostly came from more tactical realism games/mods I found the speed in trem to be just 'right' after playing it for a bit. Really, Humans wouldn't stand a chance against any skilled alien if they walked as slow as NS marines do. IMO trem has quite a steep learning curve, of which most people mostly learn the basics, using the most expensive class/gun available as if it is always the better choice, or using the crappy base next to the default one, because its easier to camp there (even though camping leads to losing), its good to see that people are finally relocating to other locations (I can't wait 'till they start picking the good spots! ).

I guess most of how each tremulous game developes depends on the server, with more than 16 players it becomes more of a spam fest than anything else.

[Jex]

Maybe I can help explain a few things. Tremulous is often labeled an FPS/RTS (and we ourselves do indeed use this label to describe the game) however the order of that relationship is that Tremulous is Tremulous and FPS/RTS is just a label used to help give a simple description of the game.

When Tremulous was first being started, the idea was that, since Team Reaction had at the time not announced any sort of Gloom sequel for Quake 3, a number of Gloomers would create their own not-quite-Gloom for Quake 3. As such the gameplay borrows heavily from Gloom, which was indeed moreso FPS than RTS, and this is the style of gameplay the team knew and loved.

Lets fast forward a few years (about 4 years, actually :roll:). Tremulous enjoyed a few fleeting moments of success when released as a Quake 3 mod. People played. Fun was had. People quit playing. For the most part we assumed Trem had gone about as far as it was ever going to. We had often talked about making Tremulous a stand-alone game whenever the Quake 3 source was released but, as a team, there wasn't a lot of steam left to go around. We really took our time pushing Trem those extra couple inches from Quake 3 mod to stand alone game. None of us expected Trem to gain even a fraction of the popularity it currently enjoys.

All of a sudden everything has changed. What was previously thought of as a big game might now have players wondering where everyone went. Suddenly we are able to see how the game really plays, and along with this comes the realisation that some things will need to change. However, at the moment, the Tremulous being played is still the same Tremulous that had to have a mailing list just to try get enough beta testers out to play a proper game. It's still the same Tremulous that we intended to make standalone just so we could say we did it and then let it rest in peace.

So after recovering from the shock of how many people have started playing, most of us have realised that we suddenly have an interest in the future of Tremulous again. We're making maps, fixing bugs and looking at areas of improvement.

In regards to the FPS nature of the game, a lot of us enjoy this style; the fast pace, the adrenaline rush of an intense fight. I don't forsee that aspect of the game changing by leaps and bounds. However some things are likely to change. The scoreboard, for one, generally has little bearing on what actually goes on in a game. This is one of the things being talked about. Indeed, the menus are fairly awkward to use. This will likely see improvement. Problems in the balance such as Lucifer spamming and the perhaps over-effectiveness of human camping are also being looked at.

I should mention that we do read the forums as much as possible. We see people's suggestions and complaints and while many of these are good suggestions, balancing a game like Trem is a rather difficult task. Any small change could throw things off considerably. While I'm sure most people will agree that there are balance issues at the moment, the fact that most of these issues spawn arguments rather than mutual agreement tells us that things are somewhere close to central /for the most part/.

One other thing to consider is that a lot of the more RTS-flavoured ideas involve the creation of new art content. As such, an idea of this sort is more likely to become a part of the game if someone provides the necessary assets of consistant quality with the rest of Tremulous. I don't mean to say that "we're too good for your ideas", but unless an idea seems immediately appealing we generally tend to prioritise our own projects and ideas over those we've read in a forum post. That said, we are pretty easy guys to get along with and would be willing to help out anyone attempting to design and implement new assets.

In closing, OMG I wrote a lot of text. D:

[KorJax]

I woould like to clarify that I'm not nessicarily in favor of more RTS abilities.

I belive tremuluous having a quasi-fast paced FPS action with RTS elements is perfect.


HOWEVER, I do belive teamplay could be improved alittle, such as the thing with the markers and some voice comms (like ET).

I also think that certain units walk way to fast.  Such as, the Bsuit should atleast have either 2x more momentum or 2x slower, its huge, cheap, and overpowered, yet they walk like normal humans.

And other little things such as certain weapons and attacks (like trample) will cause players to be "forced" out of the direction of the explosion or path.

I wouldnt mind more buildings or a way for grangers to organize though (such as a 1 minute warm up before a match?), and more build points is one of the reasons why the TJW server is one of my favs.

[Catalyc]

Its huge, cheap, and overpowered, yet they walk like normal humans.
.

And a tyrant can kill one in 3 slashes...

[Wordplay]

And a tyrant can kill one in 3 slashes...

Erm... That's just the thing: it makes too little difference. Man, but did I love it when you finally got that godly Heavy Armor (with capital letters) in NS and the aliens started scrambling in fear and you knew they were having a furious discussion along the lines of "OMG! They have HA! OMG!" Then, of course, the satisfaction of actually surviving without dying even once during the next half of the game. Not because the equipment was so good, but because you could utilize it where others died. What did the manual of Tremulous say about survival bonuses: "Try to live for two minutes to get a bonus?"

Tremulous isn't NS at all, I understand, but it does have the potential to become as popular and, if the devs of Trem learn from NS's mistakes, also avoid the thing that finally killed it after hanging at the balance of mediocre satisfaction for two years (I know this because I was there from the first version, released around 2002, IIRC).

Teamplayers own everything but the most skilled of players (only few come to mind), but only if they truly work as a team, not just move in groups.

Score isn't everything, I've seen teams with 4 times the frags of the other teams lose just because they were going for the frags not the kill. Fragging endlessly doesn't win games, basekills do.

But when you take in the pace of the game, how can you work as a solid, strategically planned team when everything happens under two minutes before spawning in again? In games like UT2k4 this is not a problem since they aim for pure FPS no-brainer shooting, but doesn't Tremulous aim for something much better?  :O

The base mostly being placed around the om/reactor is a restricting measure intented in gameplay.

Why so? Why the gameplay has been restricted/limited?

NS is based on HL which is a slow game anyways. Even though I mostly came from more tactical realism games/mods I found the speed in trem to be just 'right' after playing it for a bit. Really, Humans wouldn't stand a chance against any skilled alien if they walked as slow as NS marines do. IMO trem has quite a steep learning curve

Depends of POV again, I guess, since "old" players like me would like to have it a bit more slow to have some satisfaction from a kill. There are over N games (Battlefield 2 being the most recent) that try to please these  'fast-paced AXN gaming' -fans, so it would be nice to have something for us veterans too.

By the way, you could slow down both aliens and mar... er... humans to make it fair. Or humans a bit more so that the aliens can have the advantage. Like one of the guys on NS board once said: "Balance isn't about making both teams equal, but making things work together flawlessly." If there is one thing, like speed, that gives an huge advantage to one team, the other teams need to have something to counter it. Does Tremulous have similar, clear roles? By what I played, it did have a bunch of guns, but none of them didn't seem to give me any special advantage over the opposing team...

FPS/RTS is just a label used to help give a simple description of the game.

Sounds reasonable. But wouldn't it be more accurate to say "FPS game with minor RTS elements" so that newbies like me know what to expect? Personally, I was, and still are, hoping to find a solid replacement for NS. Perhaps not Tremulous in its current form and version, but maybe in the future if it changes to the better. Keeping thumbs up here.

In regards to the FPS nature of the game, a lot of us enjoy this style; the fast pace, the adrenaline rush of an intense fight. I don't forsee that aspect of the game changing by leaps and bounds.

Aw, that's a shame to hear because you have a very tough competition ahead of you in the area of regular shooters. Let's see... all the games I have tried of this same genre: Counter Strike, Team Fortress Classic, Science & Industry, Unreal Tournament 1-2004, Quake 1-3, post-v2 Natural Selection, Day of Defeat, HL Deathmatch, Earth's Special Forces, Firearms, and a few others I forget to mention and are not listed on Steam's stats. :eek:

But it's good to hear that the devs are still working and perhaps even open for new ideas. If this mod ever gets the same popularity as NS, 40,000+ registered members, it must be a hell to sort out the good ideas from the bad ones. Okay, reading forums must be tough, but hey...

[Neo]

The base mostly being placed around the om/reactor is a restricting measure intented in gameplay.

Why so? Why the gameplay has been restricted/limited?

Its called balance, otherwise you'd have people building their turrets right outside their enemies base stopping them from even being able to play.

NS is based on HL which is a slow game anyways. Even though I mostly came from more tactical realism games/mods I found the speed in trem to be just 'right' after playing it for a bit. Really, Humans wouldn't stand a chance against any skilled alien if they walked as slow as NS marines do. IMO trem has quite a steep learning curve

Depends of POV again, I guess, since "old" players like me would like to have it a bit more slow to have some satisfaction from a kill. There are over N games (Battlefield 2 being the most recent) that try to please these  'fast-paced AXN gaming' -fans, so it would be nice to have something for us veterans too.

Slower speeds don't make a game any more tactical, the way it is now isn't fast 'AXN gaming' as you put it, it just means you have to be more aware of what you're doing.

By the way, you could slow down both aliens and mar... er... humans to make it fair. Or humans a bit more so that the aliens can have the advantage. Like one of the guys on NS board once said: "Balance isn't about making both teams equal, but making things work together flawlessly." If there is one thing, like speed, that gives an huge advantage to one team, the other teams need to have something to counter it. Does Tremulous have similar, clear roles? By what I played, it did have a bunch of guns, but none of them didn't seem to give me any special advantage over the opposing team...

Balance is about equality. In this case you have speed and damaging melee attacks versus slow armoured units with ranged attacks. Each alien type and each weapon have different uses, you just need to learn them.

As for changes, I think you'll be found a bit wanting. Games who try to please everyone will fail, its just the way the system works. Trem needs to work on what it has now and develop that concept to a higher level.  They won't change the dynamics that the game relies upon.

[Norfenstein]

In regards to the FPS nature of the game, a lot of us enjoy this style; the fast pace, the adrenaline rush of an intense fight. I don't forsee that aspect of the game changing by leaps and bounds.

Aw, that's a shame to hear because you have a very tough competition ahead of you in the area of regular shooters. Let's see... all the games I have tried of this same genre: Counter Strike, Team Fortress Classic, Science & Industry, Unreal Tournament 1-2004, Quake 1-3, post-v2 Natural Selection, Day of Defeat, HL Deathmatch, Earth's Special Forces, Firearms, and a few others I forget to mention and are not listed on Steam's stats.

Obviously this comes down to Tremulous not being what you expected or hoped for, but I don't see how dismissing as nonexistant the aspects of it that you want to see expanded is productive at all. Natural Selection is more strategic than Tremulous which is more strategic than Team Fortress which is more strategic than standard team deathmatch. Here, I'll use bullet points:

• Team Deathmatch - No RTS elements
• Team Fortress - Individual RTS elements (players can build their own little structures independent of anything else)
• Tremulous - Pooled RTS elements (teams build using shared, finite resources)
• Natural Selection - Hybrid FPS/RTS (I've never played it, but if I'm not mistaken there's resource collecting like in real a RTS game)

The speed of the game is irrelevant; you can play chess with one second long turns. You want a slower game that doesn't require as much twitch skills to win. Maybe if you came from playing Gloom instead of Natural Selection you'd instead be disappointed in how slow-paced and tactical Tremulous is. It's all right that a game in small hybrid genre doesn't exactly fit your preconceptions, but that's no reason to split-hairs over what to call it.

It's very difficult to accurately judge a game as complex as Tremulous without playing it for quite a long time. I'm still learning things about it (and look at my "joined date" over there on the left). There is some truth to what you say, however: if humans were more agile in base building then they wouldn't need to have such high movement speed. But Tremulous is still being worked on; one major change intended for the next version will help with this very issue, just don't get your hopes up about Tremulous ever being as slow and tactical as Natural Selection. Unless, of course, you find a coder or two to make a Tremulous mod (which I would be very interested in trying out, especially since I've never had the chance to play Natural Selection).

[BabyAlien]

Aw, that's a shame to hear because you have a very tough competition ahead of you in the area of regular shooters. Let's see... all the games I have tried of this same genre: Counter Strike, Team Fortress Classic, Science & Industry, Unreal Tournament 1-2004, Quake 1-3, post-v2 Natural Selection, Day of Defeat, HL Deathmatch, Earth's Special Forces, Firearms, and a few others I forget to mention and are not listed on Steam's stats.  

Are these free too?  If not then I don't know if they are in the same 'market'.

As an observation, you seem to be heavy on the criticism.  You seem to have had your expectations crushed somehow like you expected to meet and old friend but instead got a stranger.  You might need to get to know this stranger rather than comparing with your old friend.

As for me, I've been playing it for a short time now and had nothing to compare to.   It took a couple weeks, if not more, for it to 'click'.  I'm glad I stuck with it because I enjoy it more and more all the time.

The primary weakness I see right now is simply the number of servers with so many new / learning / clueless players.  The best matches are when you have at least two or three good players on the same team communicating, planning, backing each other up etc.  I haven't ventured into the realm of pickup games yet.  I don't know if I will.  Playing on public servers can be like being an ambassador for Trem, giving new players a good experience, and I like that kind of thing.

[Wordplay]

Its called balance, otherwise you'd have people building their turrets right outside their enemies base stopping them from even being able to play.

But if that is the best way to act in the current enviroment, shouldn't it be allowed? I mean: why artifically block something when it would be better to alter the defining factors? Like distance, initial alien/marine power/speed-ratio, or maybe neutral area hostility.

Slower speeds don't make a game any more tactical, the way it is now isn't fast 'AXN gaming' as you put it, it just means you have to be more aware of what you're doing.

So you say that in fast-paced games you need to be more aware of what you are doing? Doesn't that only pronounce the short-term activity when players have no time to plain what they are going to do in the long run?

Balance is about equality.

Equality is about terrorists vs. counter-terrorists in a shooting-range. What you described what that person I was quoting tried to say: fun comes from the difference of two teams and how their mechanics work together. Acting and counter-acting, classes vs. upgrading, walking vs. flying, long-range vs. close-range, central command vs. distributed, etc...

   * Team Deathmatch - No RTS elements
    * Team Fortress - Individual RTS elements (players can build their own little structures independent of anything else)
    * Tremulous - Pooled RTS elements (teams build using shared, finite resources)
    * Natural Selection - Hybrid FPS/RTS (I've never played it, but if I'm not mistaken there's resource collecting like in real a RTS game)

That's a good, clear way to put it. Yet, if you think about it, how is Tremulous different from TFC? Pooled res is nice and all, but it doesn't matter to a indivitual player, so aren't TFC and Trem exactly the same? E.g: players can build their little structures independent of anything else? Doesn't that make Trem a game for soloing instead of teaming up?

just don't get your hopes up about Tremulous ever being as slow and tactical as Natural Selection. Unless, of course, you find a coder or two to make a Tremulous mod

Like I said previously: I'll keep thumbs up for Trem in hopes that it finds the right way, but with pessimistic reservation. As to the coders... Well; I'm an IT engineer myself with specialization in programming, so it's a matter of buggering to do it myself. But you probably already know that I like (or "liked" in past tense) more of NS, so it would be much easier to simply edit the game-mechanic related parameters at that side instead of building from scratch. If Flayra just didn't sit on the source-code...

Are these free too? If not then I don't know if they are in the same 'market'.

Most of them are free HL1 mods I have tested after NS kicked the bucket. Then there are the UT2k4 mods too, like Red Orchestra. So yes; Tremulous has a very tought competition in its current form.

The speed of the game is irrelevant; you can play chess with one second long turns. You want a slower game that doesn't require as much twitch skills to win. Maybe if you came from playing Gloom instead of Natural Selection you'd instead be disappointed in how slow-paced and tactical Tremulous is.

True and in marketing people talk about focusing on a certain customer-group. So, based on what has come up thus far, Tremulous has then chosen the young, action-oriented FPS fans as their target instead of the more slowly paced vets like me? Like said: you can't please everyone and these are two opposing groups.

You seem to have had your expectations crushed somehow like you expected to meet and old friend but instead got a stranger. You might need to get to know this stranger rather than comparing with your old friend.

Metaphorically speaking, I expected a stranger and got a half-stranger. The same one I have seen many times before in different mods and games. You kinda recognize the signs and have a clear expectation of what the game holds. In the case of Tremulous, I hoped for more of (old) NS kind of action but found another FPS shooter. Which is fine and okay, no negative meaning here and many like of pure shooters with little sauce, but it's a genre that isn't for me.

The primary weakness I see right now is simply the number of servers with so many new / learning / clueless players.

Nonsense; that is no weakness but a very good thing. Do you have any idea how self-bickering and boring the old players can be once you have done everything the game has to offer over N times? The development of NS was quit some two years ago (the real changes even earlier) and I don't believe there has been a single new player ever since. Of course, most of the vets and clanners are gone too, so it's just the hardcore fans now.

As an observation, you seem to be heavy on the criticism.

Sorry about that, but I do try to be constructive when moments like this can sometimes decide does the project succeed or die. I'm sure the readers won't mind of me bringing up some new angles when it's fun too, no?  

[Neo]

Just for the record, equality doesn't mean two teams with the same gear and stats fighting. Its that every advantage has a counter so the end result is zero or at best near zero. So if someone has a faster speed then the other has something to compensate, such as longer range. Its just Game Theory just with harder to define values.

[Norfenstein]

That's a good, clear way to put it. Yet, if you think about it, how is Tremulous different from TFC? Pooled res is nice and all, but it doesn't matter to a indivitual player, so aren't TFC and Trem exactly the same? E.g: players can build their little structures independent of anything else? Doesn't that make Trem a game for soloing instead of teaming up?

I have thought about it and the difference is huge. Building in TF is completely optional (and maps can disable it entirely), in Tremulous it is absolutely vital for reasons I don't think I have to explain. And players can't "build their little structures independend of anything else" because a slapdash base will be a failure.

True and in marketing people talk about focusing on a certain customer-group. So, based on what has come up thus far, Tremulous has then chosen the young, action-oriented FPS fans as their target instead of the more slowly paced vets like me? Like said: you can't please everyone and these are two opposing groups.

Actually they're not opposed at all and I find it strange that you think this since you're already a fan of a hybrid FPS/RTS game. There is more than one shade of gray, which is the one point this entire thread has been devoted to getting across to you (well, that and one shade is not necessarily better than any other).

Like I said previously: I'll keep thumbs up for Trem in hopes that it finds the right way, but with pessimistic reservation.

So yes; Tremulous has a very tought competition in its current form.

Sorry about that, but I do try to be constructive when moments like this can sometimes decide does the project succeed or die. I'm sure the readers won't mind of me bringing up some new angles when it's fun too, no?

Tremulous has already gained more popularity than any of us expected and there's no reason to expect that it won't retain a good community for some time. It doesn't matter if that community reaches the size of Counterstrike or Natural Selection. I think if you spend more time with it you'll drop this notion that it's no more complex than team deathmatch. I hope you do too, since it seems like you might have some good ideas to contribute. Actually forget about that, it'd be nice just to have one more team player that's slow to anger.  

[werepants]

first off, we can't get too caught up in the genres put on games.  tremulous is a great example of the way games are currently breaking out of genres and defining an entirely new kind of gaming experience.  So, saying RTS/FPS/RPG/TBS or whatever is merely a way to correlate what you may experience in a game to what you have experienced in games in the past.  so, I see it as pointless to try to get picky about the label on the game, because tremulous has no duty to stay true to any label.  maybe there is a more fitting acronym out there, but IMO fps/rts is fine.  

But if that is the best way to act in the current enviroment, shouldn't it be allowed? I mean: why artifically block something when it would be better to alter the defining factors? Like distance, initial alien/marine power/speed-ratio, or maybe neutral area hostility.

as far as limitations on building placement, etc, I don't think this is an area where we can get picky either.  look at starcraft, for instance.  protoss must build within range of a pylon, much as trem humans have to be near a reactor or repeater.  zerg have to build on creep, just like the trem aliens.  that is not a fault in game design, nor a fault of rules.  it just *is* the game.  saying those limitations should not be there is the same as saying basketball should have no out-of-bounds.  sure, you could do it, but it becomes a different game.  rules and limitations are what create a game, and i think the ones in tremulous have been thoughtfully and fairly implemented to make for gameplay that is fun and rewarding for a wide range of players.

i am happy to see that you take enough interest in tremulous to share your thoughts, but i think it is an exercise in futility to try to say these rules or those rules should change.

That's a good, clear way to put it. Yet, if you think about it, how is Tremulous different from TFC? Pooled res is nice and all, but it doesn't matter to a indivitual player, so aren't TFC and Trem exactly the same? E.g: players can build their little structures independent of anything else? Doesn't that make Trem a game for soloing instead of teaming up?

As Norfenstein communicated, it is pretty absurd to say that TFC and Trem are exactly the same.  In TFC you can win, lose, and tie whether you even have a builder class on your team.  In Trem, there can be a team of uber-1337 players that have 10 times your frags who end up loosing because of a neglected base.  They key difference is your team can literally no longer continue without a base, because you cannot respawn unless your base is up.

If you want a game in a similar market, look at AlienArena or Cube.  These are free standalone games, and these games are both *definately* FPS only, the AXN you were talking about.  Trem offers an additional element that is attractive to a lot of people, and while I agree that the RTS could be stronger, that would change the core of a game that has already attracted many people.  The solution is a mod, methinks.  I personally would *love* a more strategeric and slower paced trem when i am in a "base building" mood.  it would be cool to use the same universe, units, and everything, but I would really like to see something like that.  I see the value just as you do, but I think it would be a shame to corrupt the already good gameplay and potentially damage the well-established user-base in order to *hopefully* appeal to a different one.  You can't meet everyones wants in one game, but you can meet a lot more wants with multiple mods.  Even maps can accomplish some of this.  

Anyways, welcome to the forums, and I hope to see you around in game. as other players have said, it takes a while to really get a good idea of what Tremulous is about, so don't write it off to quickly.  And, since you have professed your developments skills, maybe you could even be part of a more strategic mod of trem.

[Wordplay]

Building in TF is completely optional (and maps can disable it entirely), in Tremulous it is absolutely vital for reasons I don't think I have to explain. And players can't "build their little structures independend of anything else" because a slapdash base will be a failure.

Sounds a bit strange when relating to the fact that in my games thus far people only put up the base, guard it with turrets, and go off to frag. Not much "base building", is there?  

saying those limitations should not be there is the same as saying basketball should have no out-of-bounds

I didn't mean that all the limitation should be removed. Rules are there with a purpose, like you suggested, but at the same time these rules should be flexible and encourage players to invent. If there is only one path to go, that path gets a bit tedious quite quickly and then devs can start wondering where the people disappeared.

I hope you do too, since it seems like you might have some good ideas to contribute. Actually forget about that, it'd be nice just to have one more team player that's slow to anger.

Thanks, but I doubt I will be remembering Trem after this message. To be frank, Werepant's reply was pretty exhausting and defeating, confirming the answers I was looking for. One, Tremulous will not have any revolutionary updates. Two, Tremulous will follow the current path, which is not the way my kind of players would choose (sorry, the profs have taught that you can appeal only to a limited group of people or specific needs). Three, resistance is futile. The borg community has decided.  

So, it was fun talking with you and it was nice that people actually started to defend what they saw as right, but at the same time I hope that they also think about what was said. As to me, I'll be trying to get the bloody source-code of NS from Flayra (vain hope) and continue looking for another attempteé. Cheers with Trem.  

[Timbo]

So, it was fun talking with you and it was nice that people actually started to defend what they saw as right, but at the same time I hope that they also think about what was said. As to me, I'll be trying to get the bloody source-code of NS from Flayra (vain hope) and continue looking for another attempteé. Cheers with Trem.  

I rather resent the "attempteé" (mis)characterisation. Trem does not aspire to be anything, especially not NS. NS is not something I have ever played.

If you do want something different though, it seems to me that Trem is an excellent base on which to build. It matches your aspirations for a so called FPS/RTS game partially at least, and there are no hurdles in obtaining its source code.

[Wordplay]

Guess it could be worth a look, considering the reply I got from the NS developer:

Sorry man, but I don't think it makes sense for us to give out that information.  We've spent years refining the game and are planning on making a new version as well.

But where is it, exactly, since it doesn't seem to be in the "Files" -page?

[Stof]

Guess it could be worth a look, considering the reply I got from the NS developer:

Sorry man, but I don't think it makes sense for us to give out that information.  We've spent years refining the game and are planning on making a new version as well.

But where is it, exactly, since it doesn't seem to be in the "Files" -page?

Download the zip version, the source code is also in there.

[Timbo]

It's included in the installers too, but the option to install it is disabled by default. Also see SVN.

[werepants]

Sounds a bit strange when relating to the fact that in my games thus far people only put up the base, guard it with turrets, and go off to frag. Not much "base building", is there?  

I regard those bases as easy targets for the opposing team.  A single active builder/repairer can make the difference between a win and a loss.  You can not ever win a game merely by having a good base, but honestly, most strategies seen in Tremulous and their relative effectiveness seem very comparable to that in the RTS games I have played.  If you just attack, your base typically dies and you lose.  If you just defend, you never hurt the enemy and camp yourself to death.  There are exceptions that turn into draws, or where an attacking team gets lucky, but the trend in Trem seems to be quite comparable to the trend in RTS games.  The biggest difference here is that a skill imbalance can make a bigger difference, since in RTS your units are very consistent, and in FPS/RTS player abilities can vary widely.

Thanks, but I doubt I will be remembering Trem after this message. To be frank, Werepant's reply was pretty exhausting and defeating, confirming the answers I was looking for. One, Tremulous will not have any revolutionary updates. Two, Tremulous will follow the current path, which is not the way my kind of players would choose (sorry, the profs have taught that you can appeal only to a limited group of people or specific needs). Three, resistance is futile. The borg community has decided.  

sorry if i was "defeating".  the last thing i want to do is drive new players away.  just as you were hoping to give constructive criticism, I hoped you would be welcome to free reaction to your thoughts.  I merely am trying to communicate that one should not complain about the structure of a game.  it is one thing to say balance needs improvement, artwork could be better, bugs need to be worked out.  These are *relatively* objective things.  It is another thing entirely to say that the gameplay itself should be revised.  It is the difference between criticizing the idea of the game and criticizing the implementation of the game.  I am no veteran either, so can only really speak for myself, but I do think highly of Tremulous as it currently exists, and I would rather see ideas to mod it into a new and separate game than criticisms that it should be a different game.

Again, hopefully this is not the last venture you make into the tremulous community.  In my experience it is a growing and adapting community that is quite welcoming.  I know any opensource project is always happy to have the support of experienced people like yourself, and I for one think it would be great if you used your abilities to either help in tremulous or start an entirely different branch.  hope to see you around :wink: .

[Stakhanov]

Adding to the point of view of former Natural Selection players : tremulous is complete in the media and team structure areas , but strategy is strangely missing since it plays like team deathmatch with turrets added to each base. Speaking of which , human defenses fry the weak and average alien forms with frightening ease , to the point of being a major part of the camping phenomenon. It is clearly not inherent to the base gameplay - humans should not have their odds of survival increased by standing still in a cramped place.

But it doesn't need to become a full FPS/RTS hybrid to put its potential to good use. Its gameplay is not far from NS:Combat , which managed to get rid of the balance and camping issues.

The flow of the game seems obstructed to me. In theory , both teams are meant to destroy each other's base ; but the rules of engagement seem more like "bore the enemy until he agrees to fight at unfair odds with you then destroy his base when it is safe" ... the players will need strong incentives to switch to offense. Team asymetry ought to be taken into account , too. To stick to the combat-related resources , here is how I see the reward system :

Aliens : killing humans gives lots of sentience , razing structures gives little sentience.
Humans : killing aliens gives little credits , razing structures gives lots of credits.

And adjusting each side's defenses :

Aliens : good at defending players (disabling humans) and poor at defending structures.
Humans : poor at defending players and good at defending structures.

Turret damage is fine , but their tracking is too perfect. Natural Selection has a good implementation of purely defensive turrets - they shoot in bursts and have a limited rotation rate , so aliens leaping left and right can enter and leave the base unscathed - but not attack structures for any length of time.

Refining the gameplay would decentralize fights and give more value to scouting and teamwork. Each team would have to put maximum pressure on each other , for winning and surviving ends - offense is the best defense.

[Teiman]

bore the enemy until he agrees to fight at unfair odds with you then destroy his base when it is safe

That make the game longer, but not boring. Imho. If you setup force everyone to attack, the game will be a senseless fragfest.

[Stakhanov]

That's forgetting the 2 minutes survival bonus... my suggestion was to encourage the humans to try and attack the alien base before stage 3.

I have to concede that one can only fix the game , not the players. Today I had a great game on Transit with both teams featuring experienced players , where humans reached stage 2 very fast , and remained on offense for the rest of the game. We aliens kept rebuilding our hive as nasty jetpackers flew down to our side constantly looking for it. We thought we stood no chance when battlesuits appeared as we only were in stage 2 , but clever grangers managed to rebuild eggs mostly out of reach and out of sight of humans - while the always exposed overmind was constantly under attack. Stage 3 came with some time to breathe , as lucifer wielding humans were a common sight by now. Much fighting occured in virtually every part of the map , but the upstairs hive grew easy enough to defend that we could try to counterattack humans near their base (it is likely that some left the game at that time) , which we eventually overran as tryants had the upper hand in its exposed area. Humans did try to relocate , but to no avail - vigilant patrols got rid of their builders.

This proves that Tremulous has the potential to play great , but it is unstable since it depends solely on the player's good will - they have to make the effort to work as a team and to play the game the way it is meant to be played... what it needs is some incentives to encourage everyone to adopt fairer winning strategies , and a way for veterans to show and teach them to noobs (not everyone has the experience of complex FPS/RTS hybrids)

[werepants]

It seems to me that any game depends on good will from the players to be enjoyable.  In my experience camping humans die.  Feeding humans also die.  The only solution is teamwork and knowing when to run back to recharge.

Aliens don't have to bore the other team to death.  I have played more than a few games as a mara, and attacked, bit and killed humans sitting on top of their turrets.  Just because it doesn't work to run straight up to the human turrets as a dretch doesn't mean that your only outlet is to bore the other team to death.  Lure them out, or work on fortifying a base while the humans are safely hiding where you can keep an eye on them.

The fact that a game requires patience, timing, and discretion doesn't make it unstable or flawed.

I agree that it is lame when you spend the whole game trying to get your clueless team to help you break the human defenses, or when BSuits are running around clueless letting your base get stomped by tyrants, but this isn't the fault of the devs.  Any multiplayer game is intrinsically going to play great or terrible based on the actions of your teammates and opponents.