Planned Development Games

[Norfenstein]

I'm saying that the new zap is easy. I don't like moves that do the work for you. I don't find them fun.

As a player who enjoys the 'dancing' side of gameplay; where your opponents dodging ability can trump your aiming ability, I'm not happy to be given attacks that subvert this defense completely. I'd much prefer the new moves to reward ingenuity and skill.

The zap is quite lousy versus human players, you're much better off using the slash and getting headshots. The real point of it is to be effective against multiple targets -- especially those without locational damage -- i.e. a base. The "skill" of using it is staying alive long enough in a human base to take some structures down. That said, I've never really been satisfied with any of the different zap iterations we've gone through.

Do you value realism more than gameplay?

Of course not, and I left this dodgehopping in until I saw it used in game and felt it wasn't fun. This may just be a difference of opinion. Question, though: have you had it used against you in game? Because...

Is it stupid? I'd be impressed if a player can shoot accurately at such a speed and it would be hard to react very fast after you were unexpectedly blocked by an alien.

I don't seen any one using this and caring about shooting at the same time. I'd expect it be used solely for putting a huge distance between yourself and whatever alien you don't want to fight anymore. It felt cheap in other words, like having a teleporter to get you out of a fight.

But if you get that clan match together please have everyone record demos! I'd be very interested in how it play out.


Game on Euro dev (edev.tremulous.net) in 45 minutes.

[Nux]

The "skill" of using it is staying alive long enough in a human base to take some structures down.

Surely that "skill" isn't special to zap and you might as well be saying "it's hard to stay alive long enough in a human base to take some structures down." So is zap effective at taking structures down too? Does that give you anything to learn or does it just mean not aiming at your targets?

But if you get that clan match together please have everyone record demos! I'd be very interested in how it play out.

I'll be happy to do so!

[David]

What's the odds of getting server side demo on the dev servers?
Is it going to be in 1.2?

[ThePyro]

Here's my 2 cents after playing a few games the last couple weeks.

Stuff I like:

- Stage 2 advanced goon. 
Aliens desperately needed an improved attack at S2.  Too often they're forced to just wait until S3 before they can mount a decent attack against camping humans.
- Turret changes are nice
- Faster pulse rifle.  I always thought it was ridiculous how easily aliens could basically outrun the laser blasts.
- Changes to alien healing.  New healing method encourages teamwork and forward building.
- Nerfed rant HP
- Improved mara zap.  It could still use some improvement, but *anything* is an improvement over the 1.1 mara zap.  I almost never use it.

Stuff I don't like:

- Dretch changes.  I feel that dretches vs. rifles is one of the most fun stages of the game in 1.1, and the 1.2 dretch changes feel wrong to me.  Also there seem to be conflicting changes going on.  They're faster and smaller, which make them nastier opponents... but then they also have less health and do less damage, making them easier.  What's your goal here?  Those changes seem to cancel each other out balance-wise, but the game becomes less fun overall because both dretches and humans have a harder time killing each other.

- Human dodging system.  Maybe it's an acquired taste... I haven't acquired it yet.  If you're determined to implement dodging then I would prefer a system which is consistent with Unreal Tournament's dodging system.  Dodging is performed by double-tapping a movement key rather than using a separate bind.  It feels a LOT more natural. 

- Dretches can't hurt turrets?  That just slows down the game IMO.

Stuff I'm not quite sure about:

- Mara movement changes.  Marauder is my favorite class in 1.1, primarily for its maneuverability.  Consequently this is a sensitive issue for me  

[kevlarman]

- Dretches can't hurt turrets?  That just slows down the game IMO.

no one is particularly happy with this, but with the new turrets dretches were overpowered (a certain punjabi developer who shall not be named could take out an entire human base in 3 dretches)

[Norfenstein]

Surely that "skill" isn't special to zap and you might as well be saying "it's hard to stay alive long enough in a human base to take some structures down." So is zap effective at taking structures down too? Does that give you anything to learn or does it just mean not aiming at your targets?

Well, it is somewhat different than the normal base assaulting skill. When using a primary weapon the tactic is to find a blind spot where only one turret can spot you, take it out, and repeat (or, if you can, find a nook that isn't covered by turrets). The zap is basically an area-effect weapon, so you want to bounce around near multiple structures, actively dodging turret fire.

When we finally settled on this version of the zap (after several other iterations) my thinking was that it'd be better for it to do damage over time so marauders couldn't just hit-and-run continuously, but I agree that it hasn't turned out as fun as it deserves to be. The key point is that aliens need an area effect weapon, and the zap is the most suitable place for it, so any form of the zap should be better against multiple targets than single ones (don't want to make the slash obsolete too).

- Dretch changes.  I feel that dretches vs. rifles is one of the most fun stages of the game in 1.1, and the 1.2 dretch changes feel wrong to me.  Also there seem to be conflicting changes going on.  They're faster and smaller, which make them nastier opponents... but then they also have less health and do less damage, making them easier.  What's your goal here?  Those changes seem to cancel each other out balance-wise, but the game becomes less fun overall because both dretches and humans have a harder time killing each other.

The hitbox reduction was made by tjw a long time ago to make the model and hitbox line up better (the model is also bigger), and I've basically never reevaluated it (but did balance it around it somewhat). I think for next week I'm going to try reverting the hitbox and health. The damage reduction I feel good about, because 96 damage for one headshot was too powerful (if you took more than 3 points of damage from any source you had to waste your medkit in order to survive a dretch ambush). It's still two headshots for unarmoured humans. The speed increase I could go either way on.

- Human dodging system.  Maybe it's an acquired taste... I haven't acquired it yet.  If you're determined to implement dodging then I would prefer a system which is consistent with Unreal Tournament's dodging system.  Dodging is performed by double-tapping a movement key rather than using a separate bind.  It feels a LOT more natural.

It does take some getting used to, but now that I have I don't think it feels unnatural. And I, at least, prefer the control of a separate bind to having to jam on the directional keys to dodge. Would be interested to know whether or not you you change your mind after using it some more.

- Mara movement changes.  Marauder is my favorite class in 1.1, primarily for its maneuverability.  Consequently this is a sensitive issue for me  

It's been a long time since I played 1.1, but I don't know what's gotten worse about the marauder movement. I think it's been dramatically improved actually (can actually walljump off slanted walls now, and it can scale vertical walls pretty easily). The lower jump height was a requested change to make marauders less "floaty" in combat -- the less time you spend in the air the more control you have to dodge.

- Dretches can't hurt turrets?  That just slows down the game IMO.

no one is particularly happy with this, but with the new turrets dretches were overpowered (a certain punjabi developer who shall not be named could take out an entire human base in 3 dretches)

Would really like to hear possible solutions for this. I'm happy with turrets versus everything else, but we can't just make the dretch huge or slow to compensate, so I'm not sure what to do. Short of introducing Gloom-style blob turrets, that is.

[Nux]

Well, it is somewhat different than the normal base assaulting skill. When using a primary weapon the tactic is to find a blind spot where only one turret can spot you, take it out, and repeat (or, if you can, find a nook that isn't covered by turrets).

Ahem. THE tactic? When I'm facing turrets (especially in mgdev) I don't depend on there being blindspots and definitely don't stick around on one turret. It's so much more effective to keep moving (keeping them moving) and slash at all that you pass by.

The key point is that aliens need an area effect weapon...

They NEED one? Sure it might make things more/less interesting but I wouldn't say it's in anyway required.

How about a compromise. Make the "area of effect" the area in front of the mara. At least that way you have to keep as many targets on screen as possible.

It's been a long time since I played 1.1, but I don't know what's gotten worse about the marauder movement.

In that case I recommend you get refreshed with the 1.1 style so as not to forget what was good about it. Since you're hoping for people to switch over to this version, you should try to avoid making anything feel like a step back.

Would really like to hear possible solutions for this. I'm happy with turrets versus everything else, but we can't just make the dretch huge or slow to compensate, so I'm not sure what to do. Short of introducing Gloom-style blob turrets, that is.

Hold on. As far as I'm aware, the turrets were changed to allow dretches to more easily enter the base so as to reduce camp and that there was otherwise no problem with the originals either. If you don't want them to enter the base so easily then surely you just need to make them more like the old turrets.

[David]

Give the turrets a secondary zap attack that's very short range, but can't penetrate larger aliens armour.

[ThePyro]

The damage reduction I feel good about, because 96 damage for one headshot was too powerful (if you took more than 3 points of damage from any source you had to waste your medkit in order to survive a dretch ambush).

I would agree that the 1.1 dretch deals out a bit too much damage.  However, have you considered that it might just be a side-effect of easy head-bites from the ground?  I always thought it was kindof silly that dretches could bite your head without jumping.  If they had to jump then the damage might be less of an issue.

And I, at least, prefer the control of a separate bind to having to jam on the directional keys to dodge. Would be interested to know whether or not you you change your mind after using it some more.

I'll play around with it a bit more and see if I can get used to it.  The UT system is just what I was exposed to first, so it's hard to expunge it from my brain.

Would really like to hear possible solutions for this. I'm happy with turrets versus everything else, but we can't just make the dretch huge or slow to compensate, so I'm not sure what to do. Short of introducing Gloom-style blob turrets, that is.

If turrets suck vs. dretch then there will finally be a reason to build teslas.  Personally I don't have a problem with dretches being able to tear apart bases.  An unoccupied base ought to be a dead base.

[kevlarman]

The damage reduction I feel good about, because 96 damage for one headshot was too powerful (if you took more than 3 points of damage from any source you had to waste your medkit in order to survive a dretch ambush).

I would agree that the 1.1 dretch deals out a bit too much damage.  However, have you considered that it might just be a side-effect of easy head-bites from the ground?  I always thought it was kindof silly that dretches could bite your head without jumping.  If they had to jump then the damage might be less of an issue.

we tried that very early (long before mgdev), and people hated it.

[David]

Also, teslas rule now.  Sadly you need to be s2...

[Norfenstein]

Hold on. As far as I'm aware, the turrets were changed to allow dretches to more easily enter the base so as to reduce camp and that there was otherwise no problem with the originals either. If you don't want them to enter the base so easily then surely you just need to make them more like the old turrets.

That wasn't the point at all. I felt that turrets were too uninteresting: depending on the situation they were either too effective (lined up where they wouldn't have to aim) or too ineffective (anywhere they could be manuevered around). The change was intended to make them more flexible for both human builders and alien attackers, and I think we've been successful at that.

In that case I recommend you get refreshed with the 1.1 style so as not to forget what was good about it. Since you're hoping for people to switch over to this version, you should try to avoid making anything feel like a step back.

Could you enumerate what specifically you felt was good about 1.1 that hasn't been carried over to 1.2, so I know what to focus on?

[Nux]

Well even if it wasn't the point it's still a possible solution. Perhaps there's a midpoint between the old and the new turrets that you didn't fully test? I'm just wary of adding another radical change to solve a small problem.

For me personally, everything about the old version apart from s3 was great. I enjoyed FF on (which it seems you don't), sd off and unlagged off (where yet again you seem to differ). I liked the smaller dretch models and the faster bite rate. I liked the old turrets and I liked the old creep. I also liked the swifter mara (at least under my control, the mgdev mara is definately slower) and if you could demonstrate how to use it fast on a specific route in demo-form, I'd be happy to show you how the older mara is faster on that same route (provided you don't just make the route vertical which IMO isn't all that useful in-game). There are probably other things but I can't think of anything else offhand.

Making s3 more fair but most importantly more fun is where I think you should be focusing your efforts.

[temple]

That wasn't the point at all. I felt that turrets were too uninteresting: depending on the situation they were either too effective (lined up where they wouldn't have to aim) or too ineffective (anywhere they could be manuevered around). The change was intended to make them more flexible for both human builders and alien attackers, and I think we've been successful at that.

Not to be a thread shitter but....

that sounds like revisionist history.  The way you presented the rets to the community was that they would better at defending the base (structures) but not defending the humans.  So they are slower but hit harder, forcing aliens and humans to have to move when near the base.

You may have been thinking that rets are boring but you didn't communicate that when the change was first introduced.

[amz181]

what i think needs to be done.

-Dretch reverted, it was fine in 1.1, and though you may say it was way to powerful. I can take out most dretches 1 v 1 with a hummie rifle. I'd even go as far to say that rifles hummies are too powerful, as a scenario is often witnessed when a load of hummies do an early rush and get s2 in a minute. But either way, dretch changes should be reverted, they were fine as they were in 1.1, fun, and pretty much balanced.

-Poison kill, needs to come back. It really helps joining at a s2 or s3 game for dretches, and is an asset. Med packs are more than a match for poison, and it seems stupid to change two balanced coutnerparts.

-Laser rifle. A good change. Laser rifle was barely used as a skilled dretch could get right in your face.

-Luci. Needs to be changed back, though many players may say they like it, as i have said many times before it has been turned into a god tool. I see no reason for it to be upgraded, as it was a good enough weapon before hand, easily regaining your credz which you used to buy it. Probably the most obvious change.

-Rant. I agree with the 350hp, however the regeneration rate is far too slow. It should not be as quick as 1.1 but it is far too slow. A player shouldnt be out of play for so long, it just isnt fun anymore. I say a semi fast regen rate, and when you boosterised it should be 1.1 regen. Not only will this be more balanced but it will increase the importance of forward bases.

-Regen Auras. No, no, no, no. It is cruel to ask any alien at S3 to go basi. Why? Unless your super pro you will die quickly. Unless your super pro you will not get many kills. And you will block, and be tked, just because of getting in the way, even if you only want to help. Like with the rant, you are removing the fun from the game, for the sake of making things more balanced.

Turrets. I dont really know. I actively havent seen any difference to the rets outputs, they still seem to kill and get destroyed the same rate. But if you say they make a difference, i shall take your word. One point however, it is extremely easy to jump the RC now, now that theres a charge p period.

You seem to be sacrificing the fun factor for alot of your changes. And gimping the aliens far too much. Things really need to change.

[Norfenstein]

that sounds like revisionist history.  The way you presented the rets to the community was that they would better at defending the base (structures) but not defending the humans.  So they are slower but hit harder, forcing aliens and humans to have to move when near the base.

You may have been thinking that rets are boring but you didn't communicate that when the change was first introduced.

Well there's a lot you could say about poor communication, but turrets were among the very first things I wanted to address after 1.1 (and did so on TJW's server, before everything MGDev), so it doesn't surprise me that the original intention has gotten lost.


Dev game in 15 minutes, on the US server (dev.tremulous.net).

Two important changes:

• Dretch health and bounding box reverted to 1.1 values. We'll see how this plays out with their other changes.
  
• The spawn bug is fixed

[Redsky]

-Regen Auras. No, no, no, no. It is cruel to ask any alien at S3 to go basi. Why? Unless your super pro you will die quickly. Unless your super pro you will not get many kills. And you will block, and be tked, just because of getting in the way, even if you only want to help. Like with the rant, you are removing the fun from the game, for the sake of making things more balanced.

and who asks aliens at s3 to go granger? who can tell how many kill will they get?
you see, its not about the kills its about teamwork... and only if you are "super pro" will win when their teamwork was close to none(unless of course the other team had some). And  tyrants wont trample basis for one simple reason... they will know that no basi means no healing and no healing means quick fail. And basis will try to use god damn wall walk so that they wont block once and for all.
Removing the fun from the game? what fun? being a killwhore? good teamwork brings much more fun than that.
I would go all way up, so that boost give minimal healing and basi 2x that much

PS. I love new turrets but I'm having some hard time placing it so they 1)wont get to close to entrance (eaten by tyrants) and yet 2) not to far (adv goons are out of range)

[Archangel]

what i think needs to be done.

-Dretch reverted, it was fine in 1.1, and though you may say it was way to powerful. I can take out most dretches 1 v 1 with a hummie rifle. I'd even go as far to say that rifles hummies are too powerful, as a scenario is often witnessed when a load of hummies do an early rush and get s2 in a minute. But either way, dretch changes should be reverted, they were fine as they were in 1.1, fun, and pretty much balanced.

Agree

-Poison kill, needs to come back. It really helps joining at a s2 or s3 game for dretches, and is an asset. Med packs are more than a match for poison, and it seems stupid to change two balanced coutnerparts.

WHAT? Poison deaths were removed?! That's moronic.

-Laser rifle. A good change. Laser rifle was barely used as a skilled dretch could get right in your face.

You mean pulse rifle?

-Luci. Needs to be changed back, though many players may say they like it, as i have said many times before it has been turned into a god tool. I see no reason for it to be upgraded, as it was a good enough weapon before hand, easily regaining your credz which you used to buy it. Probably the most obvious change.

The luci is fucked. Can't hardly do anything with it *at all* anymore.

-Rant. I agree with the 350hp, however the regeneration rate is far too slow. It should not be as quick as 1.1 but it is far too slow. A player shouldnt be out of play for so long, it just isnt fun anymore. I say a semi fast regen rate, and when you boosterised it should be 1.1 regen. Not only will this be more balanced but it will increase the importance of forward bases.

No comment, as I am not a tyrant user.

-Regen Auras. No, no, no, no. It is cruel to ask any alien at S3 to go basi. Why? Unless your super pro you will die quickly. Unless your super pro you will not get many kills. And you will block, and be tked, just because of getting in the way, even if you only want to help. Like with the rant, you are removing the fun from the game, for the sake of making things more balanced.

Personally, I dont even think about said auras.

Turrets. I dont really know. I actively havent seen any difference to the rets outputs, they still seem to kill and get destroyed the same rate. But if you say they make a difference, i shall take your word. One point however, it is extremely easy to jump the RC now, now that theres a charge p period.

Indeed. Now you will see every Tom, Dick, and kevlarman hopping your RC. No fun when your builder is retarded and builds all your rets somewhere else, or hell, even with your rets in base but not protecting RC!

You seem to be sacrificing the fun factor for alot of your changes. And gimping the aliens far too much. Things really need to change.

The aliens seen as a whole are really fucked. Honestly, 1.1 was very balanced. 1.2 is not even the same game anymore. Call it something else.

[Amanieu]

I agree with the luci change, it helps with the s3 vs s3 situation: A rant is now equal to a lucisuit, whereas in 1.1 any noob rant could easily take out nearly any lucisuit.

[amz181]

I agree with the luci change, it helps with the s3 vs s3 situation: A rant is now equal to a lucisuit, whereas in 1.1 any noob rant could easily take out nearly any lucisuit.

really? you think a 1.2 rant and a 1.2 lucisuit are = ?

i will personally offer to show you that a nub like me, can kill you 9/10 times with a luci suit with the current 1.2 changes.

Admittedly lucis couldnt really take on a rant in 1.1, but that was because i always saw lucis as support weapons, weapons which induced teamwork. That was the gimp of the luci, and it worked, and was balanced, and created the need for teamwork. Now the luci is just a god weapon. 2000 creds every time.

there was no need for change.

[amz181]

-Regen Auras. No, no, no, no. It is cruel to ask any alien at S3 to go basi. Why? Unless your super pro you will die quickly. Unless your super pro you will not get many kills. And you will block, and be tked, just because of getting in the way, even if you only want to help. Like with the rant, you are removing the fun from the game, for the sake of making things more balanced.

and who asks aliens at s3 to go granger? who can tell how many kill will they get?
you see, its not about the kills its about teamwork... and only if you are "super pro" will win when their teamwork was close to none(unless of course the other team had some). And  tyrants wont trample basis for one simple reason... they will know that no basi means no healing and no healing means quick fail. And basis will try to use god damn wall walk so that they wont block once and for all.
Removing the fun from the game? what fun? being a killwhore? good teamwork brings much more fun than that.
I would go all way up, so that boost give minimal healing and basi 2x that much

PS. I love new turrets but I'm having some hard time placing it so they 1)wont get to close to entrance (eaten by tyrants) and yet 2) not to far (adv goons are out of range)

i find building fun. i enjoy doing it. And building is only temporary, once a base is done its done. And when your on the backfoot and the base needs a constant builder, you are involved with the action and get a kick out of it.

waiting in the hallway by the enemy base, waiting for rants to come to you and get there HP back up, is not fun. You are not involved, your just effectively a building, an appendage.

As for getting tked. I have often made vain attempt to involve myself at S3 as a basi, and if i am not killed, i am often killed trying to help a rant slice a hummie. I dont blame the rant, it is my fault, but i can hardly be blamed for trying to have some fun?

And as for the fun element. I did not say killwhoring is fun, and a player of my skill can hardly try to killwhore. What is fun is being involved in the game, which is extremely hard as a basi at S3 (which is the most lengthy period of the game). I, and many other less skileld players, find it extremely hard to kill a helmet+armour or a bsuit with a basi. It is a near impossibility for me. So i am reduced to merely following my teamates, and retreating everytime the enemy comes near so i dont et in the way. Not my idea of fun.

Maybe for you it is fun, because you are an able lisker. For the most of us however, it isnt.

[mana]

Hey guys,

I look here from time to time and while I have no opinion on any of the 1.2 work yet I must really say that I like the new style of openness and communication involved lately. That's good work from the devs and some nice discipline from the longingly waiting users.

Keep it up and something good will come out of it

Cheers
Mana

[kevlarman]

-Poison kill, needs to come back. It really helps joining at a s2 or s3 game for dretches, and is an asset. Med packs are more than a match for poison, and it seems stupid to change two balanced coutnerparts.

WHAT? Poison deaths were removed?! That's moronic.

there's a difference between being able to kill with poison and being able to kill a human behind a wall of turrets instantly with a 0 cost class.

[amz181]

-Poison kill, needs to come back. It really helps joining at a s2 or s3 game for dretches, and is an asset. Med packs are more than a match for poison, and it seems stupid to change two balanced coutnerparts.

WHAT? Poison deaths were removed?! That's moronic.

there's a difference between being able to kill with poison and being able to kill a human behind a wall of turrets instantly with a 0 cost class.

has never happened to me, when there are 3 or more rets in the base. And i have never seen it happen when there are more than 3 rets in base.

(well positioned rets)

[khalsa]

You can still easily pull this off even with a decent human base with the current poison. Just requires some speed and planning.

Prior to this change I could easily take 2-3 humans out behind the rets - and I suck at Tremulous!


Khalsa

[amz181]

You can still easily pull this off even with a decent human base with the current poison. Just requires some speed and planning.

Prior to this change I could easily take 2-3 humans out behind the rets - and I suck at Tremulous!


Khalsa

how? when you get near a base with a decent amount of rets, you die before you can get close.

take ACTS for example, i fail to see how it is possible to get at someone when there are lots of rets.

[kevlarman]

You can still easily pull this off even with a decent human base with the current poison. Just requires some speed and planning.

Prior to this change I could easily take 2-3 humans out behind the rets - and I suck at Tremulous!


Khalsa

how? when you get near a base with a decent amount of rets, you die before you can get close.

take ACTS for example, i fail to see how it is possible to get at someone when there are lots of rets.

even in 1.1 (where bases were better at keeping dretches out), i regularly managed to take out about 3 humans per 4 dretches used up.

[benmachine]

I don't get how RC hops are supposed to be easier, given that while chomping the thing from above you are usually stationary, and whenever you are stationary in a norfenturret base your life expectancy is measured in milliseconds. Also, not only are new turrets longer-ranged (allowing them to get a better angle on the top of the reactor) but the reactor shock is stronger (not a lot, but enough to repel a basilisk at least)

And the dretch having the highest DPS below dragoon was always insane.

[amz181]

You can still easily pull this off even with a decent human base with the current poison. Just requires some speed and planning.

Prior to this change I could easily take 2-3 humans out behind the rets - and I suck at Tremulous!


Khalsa

how? when you get near a base with a decent amount of rets, you die before you can get close.

take ACTS for example, i fail to see how it is possible to get at someone when there are lots of rets.

even in 1.1 (where bases were better at keeping dretches out), i regularly managed to take out about 3 humans per 4 dretches used up.

still, i insist that a well built base will repel any dretch arsenal. There is no need to remove poison kill, it was a stupid move IMO, and is a tiny annoyance. As i have said, i have never witnessed it happening in a well built base, nor have it done to me, in my time playing trem.

And anyways, how else are you supposed to get kills at an S3 game, as a dretch with no poison?

Not only that, hummies will become more confident camping on rets.

I don't get how RC hops are supposed to be easier, given that while chomping the thing from above you are usually stationary, and whenever you are stationary in a norfenturret base your life expectancy is measured in milliseconds. Also, not only are new turrets longer-ranged (allowing them to get a better angle on the top of the reactor) but the reactor shock is stronger (not a lot, but enough to repel a basilisk at least)

And the dretch having the highest DPS below dragoon was always insane.

Any rc built in a corner (which they often are) hide you from ever the new rets. The scenario you are talking about are in maps like niveus (or is is nexus6) where the RC is in the middle and rets all around.

and wuts DPS?

[David]

Poison still works.
As I understand it, poison is better than in 1.1.
What you are complaining about is that dretches can no longer do 96 damage in one hit.  Get over it.