Planned Development Games

[your face]

Not all games are 8 vs 8....  If 2 humans (both with nades, one with shotgun, and the other with psaw) rushed at the same time, game ovarrr.

[mooseberry]

Not all games are 8 vs 8....  If 2 humans (both with nades, one with shotgun, and the other with psaw) rushed at the same time, game ovarrr.

and?

[your face]

Meaning: game over.

[mooseberry]

(nade)(2) + shotgun, + painsaw + (larmour)(2) = 790 creds, 790/175(worth of dretch) = 5 kills for the humans. What happens here, is that the humans, instead of kill whoring as usual can rush and win instead of kill whoring and than aliens getting goons and the game drags on. If humans gain the upper hand, than the pressure should obviously be on the aliens to defend if they have not gotten any kills to evolve to a higher stage. If 2 humans rush with larmour it is still not an easy thing to defeat the aliens base, and if they win than they clearly did better that game so it is understandable that utilizing offensive tactics (which is what we always want the humans to do) should enable them to achieve victory. You can't have it both ways, wishing for humans not to camp, and complaining that they shouldn't be able to win if they rushed. To add to this, I think when most people envision situations like this they imagine it playing out on ATCS, which I should say, is NOT what this game should be balanced around. Yes, ATCS is by far the most highly played map, but this does not mean that we should try to change tremulous so that we have a perfect game on ATCS all the time. All the other maps, (plus the user made ones which will be included in 1.2) should be give at least close to equal consideration in balance. If this played out on Arachnid2 for example, the humans would still have a hard time winning, especially if the aliens built another egg somewhere. I can only see that this will get the humans motivated to leave their base and attack. If they manage to gain enough kills to equip themselves with the weapons and upgrades you mentioned, fight their way to the aliens base, blow it all up, and not end up with their base killed as well, than I think they are superior players or played superior in that game, and naturally should win that game, instead of it dragging out into something of a campfest as per usual.

So please, devs, can we at least give this idea a chance?

[borsuk]

Grens at S1? No:

300 creds = two dead dretches (If I am not mistaken) -> painsaw + nade = dead default base on ATCS. The gren will blow up both eggs and hurt the OM, and then the painsaw finishes it off in no time.

This.  

By the time you earn it, the eggs are likely to be spread out and there will be better defences. And as others pointed out, if you just let a human without ranged weapons or armour into your base, you deserve to lose.

Meaning: game over.

Aww, that's terrible ! How is it different from a human base getting owned by 1-2 dragoons at stage1 ? Should aliens be the only ones capable of killing enemy base at S1 ? (note: this encourages humans to camp). Actually, it's much more fair: dragoon is more like a battlesuit. Basic dragoons are available at S1, and in 1.1 they remain the best killing machines in the game.  They kill everything up to including battlesuits, as opposed to grenades which are only good against structures. Two grenades are much easier to lose than two dragoons which continue to bring you evo points and make you harder to kill.

(about battery pack working for ammo too)
Well, beginners, whom campers are, usually die before they use all of their ammunition and that change would require lots of re-balancing (especially for shotgun and chaingun). If there is a problem with flamethrower (I haven't used it much), then the ammo pack is not the fix.
Quote

Beginners is one thing, and making things easier for beginners should also include 1) roles for less skilled alien players 2) interface improvements (buying stuff, TERRIBLE BLOCKING popup windows of death, overmind/rc status icon... the list is very long).
For everyone that's not a beginner, this would improve offensive capabilities of humans.
Shotgun would genuinely benefit from this. I don't say ammo pack is a fix for flamethrower - but it wouldn't help. As for chaingun, I don't think it would imbalance things because using chaingun properly in LA makes you extremely vulnerable.

S1 Humans have nothing that approaches dragoon at building destruction.

One word: saw

One word: battlesut.
Battlesuit is the closest equivalent of a dragoon. It makes you much tougher in combat and much harder to die. Painsaw is more like a marauder which managed to find a base's blind spot.

I have yet another idea.
Tremulous is, thanks to its mechanics, a winner-wins-more game. Joining a game in progress can be frustrating, when everyone around you is a well equipped marine or high stage alien. Earning your first credits/evos can be prohibitively hard. This is very unfair, because players who are there from the start but only camp in their base (or sit in a dark corner) doing nothing will have more resources than a newcomer.
My proposal: players joining at S2 or later get a one-time bonus of 200 credits/2 evos.

[temple]

Tyrants at stage 1.  One rant won't kill your base.

[borsuk]

Tyrants at stage 1.  One rant won't kill your base.

Why stop at tyrants ? Something better - dragoons ! Oh, wait...

[Asvarox]

1 dretch is worth 150 credits in 1.2 (I don't know if they changed it, but on last dev game norf or console said something like that), so 2 dretches = nade + larmor (= few tubes/egg(s) down). Killing 2 dretches is quite easy and, as stated above, it can kill egg and aliens can't stop it from explode. And s1 aliens defenses CAN NOT stop s1 humans unless aliens build tubeforest right at base entrance, but hey! 'I have a nade' and all defenses are down.

By the time you earn it, the eggs are likely to be spread out and there will be better defences. And as others pointed out, if you just let a human without ranged weapons or armour into your base, you deserve to lose.

Hell, you mean someone should always stay in base in case some rage psaw come? As I stated above, s1 aliens defenses can't stop s1 humans, light armor greatly reduces dmg dealt by acid tube.

Aww, that's terrible ! How is it different from a human base getting owned by 1-2 dragoons at stage1

Stop building 1.1 bases and goon won't be able to kill a ret without losing 150hp, not to mention that he has to escape.

Actually, it's much more fair: dragoon is more like a battlesuit.[...] They kill everything up to including battlesuits

Dretches also can kill almost everythingone including battlesuits and lucis. Also, in 1.2 killing bsuits as goon is REALLY hard, not just hard (like in 1.1), since they can dodge which make damn really hard to hit. I'd be nice if pounce actually takes some stamina from victim instead of pushing it off.

[pathetic quote tower]
One word: battlesut.
Battlesuit is the closest equivalent of a dragoon. It makes you much tougher in combat and much harder to die. Painsaw is more like a marauder which managed to find a base's blind spot.

What do you mean? (I don't get the point of typing it as response to "one word: saw").

[your face]

One word: battlesut.
Battlesuit is the closest equivalent of a dragoon. It makes you much tougher in combat and much harder to die. Painsaw is more like a marauder which managed to find a base's blind spot.

Helmet is definitely the equal to a dragoon.  Even two shotguns w/ light armor.

Aww, that's terrible ! How is it different from a human base getting owned by 1-2 dragoons at stage1 ? Should aliens be the only ones capable of killing enemy base at S1 ? (note: this encourages humans to camp). Actually, it's much more fair: dragoon is more like a battlesuit. Basic dragoons are available at S1, and in 1.1 they remain the best killing machines in the game.  They kill everything up to including battlesuits, as opposed to grenades which are only good against structures. Two grenades are much easier to lose than two dragoons which continue to bring you evo points and make you harder to kill.

1) Hop proof base.
2) Who says that there will be 1-2 goons at the start? .
3) Human teamwork is the alien's nightmare.  Two shotguns with light armor will easily take down a goon.
4) Dragoons aren't the best killing machines, that's a tyrants job (the word, tank, comes to mind ).  Dragoons are better for getting quick kills, then leaving, while tyrants just charge, and annihilate everything in their path.

You sound like you haven't played enough games that incorporate good human teamwork/strategy.

[borsuk]

Helmet is definitely the equal to a dragoon.  Even two shotguns w/ light armor.

Helmet is S2. Shotguns can't attack bases. Neither can helmet. I have never seen helmet rushes. Off-topic.
Shotguns being (or not)  capable of taking down a dragoon is highly dependent on situation. On maps like arachnid2, karith, niveus, transit, a dragoon is worth its weight in gold. If shotguns annoy you, attack somewhere else. Besides, shotgunners need to outmaneuver dragoon to win. Dragoon only needs 1 pounce from surprise. If dragoon can take one of shotgunners from surprise (which is not far-fetched at all, and can be done very quickly) it becomes 1 goon vs 1 shotgun. A shotgunner can't insta-kill a dragoon.

1) Hop proof base.

It's much easier to build a painsaw-proof base than marauder-proof base. Marauder can do other things and retreat quickly if base is not suitable for attack. Painsaw is slow, noisy and vulnerable. If alien base happens to be well-protected, good luck defending yourself on the way back to base.

2) Who says that there will be 1-2 goons at the start? .

I do.
1-2 goons at S1 is still a bit generous, unless you're playing 6v6 or smaller. Some servers have 18 maxplayers, most are bigger.

3) Human teamwork is the alien's nightmare.

A dragoon doesn't particularly need teamwork, but it doesn't mean it doesn't benefit from it. When marines are highly focused on the dragoon, marauders, basilisks or even (especially?) dretches can deal terrible damage.

4) Dragoons aren't the best killing machines, that's a tyrants job (the word, tank, comes to mind ).

Yes - big, unsophisticated, inflexible bullet sponges which have trouble navigating maps, ambushing, and running away. Tyrants and dragons are my favoured enemy. I have trouble hitting dretches, but lasgun is wonderful against bigger aliens.
Ok, tyrants are not terrible, but they're more like walls, corner-campers. They can be repelled. You only need to turn your back for a couple of seconds for a competent dragoon to strike fast, hard, and accurately.

You sound like you haven't played enough games that incorporate good human teamwork/strategy.

You sound like you need to focus on reasoning and not personal attacks.

[Asvarox]

Helmet is S2.

Battlesuit is s3 

Shotguns being (or not)  capable of taking down a dragoon is highly dependent on situation.

Actually sometimes 2 shotguns can kill goon before it notices it's being attacked.

Besides, shotgunners need to outmaneuver dragoon to win. [...]. Dragoon only needs 1 pounce from surprise.

Every human needs to outmaneuver an alien to win, but alien has limited range. And when humans is "surprised" by a goon, he dodges away from goon's bite range.

[here goes some counter arguments for borsuk, imagine they are there please ]

My tip for you: Don't compare aliens to humans, certain classes to certain equipment sets, since they ARE different. Comparing them is first step to making them similar = DO NOT WANT.

[your face]

Helmet is S2. Shotguns can't attack bases. Neither can helmet. I have never seen helmet rushes.

Wow, really?  At s3, helmet+luci is the most common/useful rush combo.

It's much easier to build a painsaw-proof base than marauder-proof base. Marauder can do other things and retreat quickly if base is not suitable for attack. Painsaw is slow, noisy and vulnerable. If alien base happens to be well-protected, good luck defending yourself on the way back to base.

Painsaw is noisy while being used.  On the way to the base, use blaster, then have an itemact psaw bind.
True, marauders can attack fast, and retreat fast, but there are many bases that are marauder proof.  

Yes - big, unsophisticated, inflexible bullet sponges which have trouble navigating maps, ambushing, and running away. Tyrants and dragons are my favoured enemy. I have trouble hitting dretches, but lasgun is wonderful against bigger aliens.
Ok, tyrants are not terrible, but they're more like walls, corner-campers. They can be repelled. You only need to turn your back for a couple of seconds for a competent dragoon to strike fast, hard, and accurately.

Quite the opposite, people who know how to use a tyrant are practically unstoppable.  Lasguns fail against larger aliens unless you are camping in the base.  The luci/chainsuit is the best anti-rant weapon.

You sound like you need to focus on reasoning and not personal attacks.

Just saying you should play on different servers sometimes.

[borsuk]

Helmet is S2. Shotguns can't attack bases. Neither can helmet. I have never seen helmet rushes.

Wow, really?  At s3, helmet+luci is the most common/useful rush combo.

No combo works on helmets alone, and helmets, while useful, don't cripple anyone except stealth-reliant basilisk. I compared dragoon to battlesuit because it makes a night and day difference in quality. In best case scenario you still need a lot of time to kill a battlesuit, especially with lighter aliens like dretches.

It's much easier to build a painsaw-proof base than marauder-proof base. Marauder can do other things and retreat quickly if base is not suitable for attack. Painsaw is slow, noisy and vulnerable. If alien base happens to be well-protected, good luck defending yourself on the way back to base.

Painsaw is noisy while being used.  On the way to the base, use blaster, then have an itemact psaw bind.
True, marauders can attack fast, and retreat fast, but there are many bases that are marauder proof.

What you say implies that 1) painsaw marines should walk around virtually defenceless. And - I hope - we are still debating grenades at S1. At S1 walking around defenceless and without helmet is not a wise thing to do. You can switch weapons, but tremulous is a fast paced game and the time required to switch weapon can easily cost you life. Certainly against dretches which can pop up at any time. 2) "Many bases are marauder proof"... this implies marauders rule out certain base layouts, which I think is quite an accomplishment. You don't have to do anything special to make a base painsaw-proof, you just build as usual

Quite the opposite, people who know how to use a tyrant are practically unstoppable.  Lasguns fail against larger aliens unless you are camping in the base.  The luci/chainsuit is the best anti-rant weapon.

Personal taste, no doubt, but I kill good number of goons and tyrants with lasgun. The trick is to not be on the front line. Have someone walk in front of you, even a rifles marine, and you can deal very good damage. Remember that even rifles can kill tyrants, and lasgun has higher damage actually (after factoring 2 second reload, lasgun has much higher damage over time). One of things that actually work on tyrants/goons is pursuing them once they're a bit wounded. And gang up on them. Lasgun shines there - great accuracy, no refractory period.

You sound like you need to focus on reasoning and not personal attacks.

Just saying you should play on different servers sometimes.

Actually I can't wait to play on development server. The news of gameplay changes revitalised my interest in Tremulous. See you tomorrow.
-----

I think mooseberry was spot on when he said humans are kill whoring at S1. It's very rare to see an actual attack on alien base in S1 - I mean an attack which deals visible damage. Pecking the retarded starting base at Tremor doesn't count. Usually humans just deathmatch with aliens in the safest areas of the map to gain credits. Even when humans attack, they use their rifle>dretch advantage, and focus on kills, not destroying buildings.

[mooseberry]

1 dretch is worth 150 credits in 1.2 (I don't know if they changed it, but on last dev game norf or console said something like that), so 2 dretches = nade + larmor (= few tubes/egg(s) down). Killing 2 dretches is quite easy and, as stated above, it can kill egg and aliens can't stop it from explode. And s1 aliens defenses CAN NOT stop s1 humans unless aliens build tubeforest right at base entrance, but hey! 'I have a nade' and all defenses are down.

1 barricade, (which are much more useful in 1.2) can do a fine job of slowing down psaws which will be hurt by acid tubes.

By the time you earn it, the eggs are likely to be spread out and there will be better defences. And as others pointed out, if you just let a human without ranged weapons or armour into your base, you deserve to lose.

Hell, you mean someone should always stay in base in case some rage psaw come? As I stated above, s1 aliens defenses can't stop s1 humans, light armor greatly reduces dmg dealt by acid tube.

This doesn't make sense. If there is nobody in the base and it is not a good base than a psaw without a nade will kill it anyway.

Aww, that's terrible ! How is it different from a human base getting owned by 1-2 dragoons at stage1

Stop building 1.1 bases and goon won't be able to kill a ret without losing 150hp, not to mention that he has to escape.

If you attack in 1.2 style you can do quite some damage to a decent humans base. Besides this implies that humans actually built a base which does not happen a lot for the first few min in pubs.

Also I'm not going to bother addressing your face's comments because they disolved mostly into petty arguments with borsuk.

What it comes down to is this, right now, on any large map aliens win somewhere around the range of 65% of the time. On ATCS it's more even but aliens still win more. Humans need to attack more often and this is what could help it.

[kevlarman]

1 dretch is worth 150 credits in 1.2 (I don't know if they changed it, but on last dev game norf or console said something like that), so 2 dretches = nade + larmor (= few tubes/egg(s) down). Killing 2 dretches is quite easy and, as stated above, it can kill egg and aliens can't stop it from explode. And s1 aliens defenses CAN NOT stop s1 humans unless aliens build tubeforest right at base entrance, but hey! 'I have a nade' and all defenses are down.

1 barricade, (which are much more useful in 1.2) can do a fine job of slowing down psaws which will be hurt by acid tubes.

By the time you earn it, the eggs are likely to be spread out and there will be better defences. And as others pointed out, if you just let a human without ranged weapons or armour into your base, you deserve to lose.

Hell, you mean someone should always stay in base in case some rage psaw come? As I stated above, s1 aliens defenses can't stop s1 humans, light armor greatly reduces dmg dealt by acid tube.

This doesn't make sense. If there is nobody in the base and it is not a good base than a psaw without a nade will kill it anyway.

Aww, that's terrible ! How is it different from a human base getting owned by 1-2 dragoons at stage1

Stop building 1.1 bases and goon won't be able to kill a ret without losing 150hp, not to mention that he has to escape.

If you attack in 1.2 style you can do quite some damage to a decent humans base. Besides this implies that humans actually built a base which does not happen a lot for the first few min in pubs.

Also I'm not going to bother addressing your face's comments because they disolved mostly into petty arguments with borsuk.

What it comes down to is this, right now, on any large map aliens win somewhere around the range of 65% of the time. On ATCS it's more even but aliens still win more. Humans need to attack more often and this is what could help it.

you should try playing with the new repeaters, it's very easy for humans to put a lot of pressure on aliens early.

[Norfenstein]

I don't like grenades at stage 1 for two reasons:

I think it's unnecessary. I really don't feel like humans have too hard a time attacking alien bases, and really don't think they have a harder time than aliens attacking human bases.

Grenades would be especially powerful at stage 1 because aliens can only build on floors. I guess there's the argument that humans without helmets are easier targets and so they'd have a harder time getting to use their grenades, but that's not the kind of "balance" I want. It's trending into "super weapon" territory: something that's overpowered so the only way to balance it is to make failing to use it lame.

I'd rather just save grenades for stage 2 where humans have more armour, aliens are stronger, and alien builders have a way of countering them. Where they've been balanced for since their introduction. So I think I'd need some convincing -- in the form of playing dev games with me, not debating -- to come around to this idea.


borsuk: I think you'll like how the new repeaters affect human play. Last few weeks humans have been far more aggressive than I've ever seen them. Can you imagine a 1.1 game where humans manage to overtake and hold the entire middle area of UTSC?

Also, good catch on the creep-dodge thing. I was thinking it'd probably be okay to disable dodge entirely when on creep (since any kind of weakening of the dodge would probably make it effectively useless), but then I wondered if the same shouldn't be true for whenever a human is slowed (basilisk gas has a slowing effect in addition to aim muddling). Thoughts?

[Asvarox]

Also, good catch on the creep-dodge thing. I was thinking it'd probably be okay to disable dodge entirely when on creep (since any kind of weakening of the dodge would probably make it effectively useless), but then I wondered if the same shouldn't be true for whenever a human is slowed (basilisk gas has a slowing effect in addition to aim muddling). Thoughts?

Sounds like good idea, and

I'd be nice if pounce actually takes some stamina from victim instead of while pushing it off.

[Norfenstein]

I'd be nice if pounce actually takes some stamina from victim instead of while pushing it off.

Yikes.

Nice sig btw, though we've been doing 19:00 GMT since the last (stupid) daylight savings time change. 15:00 on the east coast of the United States.

[borsuk]

I don't like grenades at stage 1 for two reasons:

I think it's unnecessary. I really don't feel like humans have too hard a time attacking alien bases, and really don't think they have a harder time than aliens attacking human bases.

I think it's quite the opposite - while it's pretty common to see humans in alien base at S1, they almost never shoot buildings. And it's hard to blame them - 2 second reload, ammo drain and so forth. Shooting the base means you expose yourself to alien counterattack while you're reloading. Once they're low on health/ammo or a goon shows up they hole up in their base.

Grenades would be especially powerful at stage 1 because aliens can only build on floors. I guess there's the argument that humans without helmets are easier targets and so they'd have a harder time getting to use their grenades, but that's not the kind of "balance" I want. It's trending into "super weapon" territory: something that's overpowered so the only way to balance it is to make failing to use it lame.

If acid tubes are a bit spread out they not only cover a larger area (preventing painsaw runs etc) but they also limit damage done by grenades. I don't think humans can afford to spend $200 on each acid tube. Note that grangers in 1.1 have much more freedom in building their bases. Humans are extremely conservative and risk-averse when it comes to base buillding. And it's very hard to see a human comeback - once their base is down, relocations are rare, even if you get 2 builders somewhere fast. You need nodes, armory, whole pile of turrets and heal pad. Aliens only really need eggs and overmind, they can usually defend their base using players only.

So I think I'd need some convincing -- in the form of playing dev games with me, not debating -- to come around to this idea.

How do you convince something that grenades can work well in S1 when they're disabled ?

borsuk: I think you'll like how the new repeaters affect human play. Last few weeks humans have been far more aggressive than I've ever seen them.

Here's an idea for repeaters.
Repeater -> Tesla Generator (only name changes)
Tesla turret -> S2
Tesla turrets can only be built near tesla generators

Now because teslas would be impossible to build near reactor, humans would get a good tool for setting up forward bases at S2, without strenghtening human main base defences. And nothing of value would be lost - no one uses teslas in 1.1, I keep asking people because i remember seeing them used a year ago or so, but everyone tells me they suck.
Advanced goons are S2, right ? So aliens would be able to take out teslas isolated from base without much trouble. And repeaters would be excellent targets for marauders.

I want to playtest the development version of tremulous too, but here's an idea for basilisks:
- advanced basilisk is invisible on radar as long as its stationary. In 1.1 helmets are a hard counter to basilisks, and so are battlesuits. With this change helmets would still help, but basilisks would be worth upgrading.
- poison breath doesn't work on battlesuits (i think it sounds silly and unnatural)
- while holding a marine, basilisk is immune to friendly fire
- advanced basilisk can grab battlesuits, but with a catch: it can't both attack and hold at the same time. As soon as basilisk starts scratching the battlesuit, battlesuit is only limited like 1.1 basilisk (battlesuit can rotate but not move). But if basilisk refrains from attacking, battlesuit can't even rotate. Gameplay implications: 1) adv. basilisks has interesting choices to make 2) adv. basilisks can grab battlesuits from behind and attack if they want to deal damage 3) adv. basilisk becomes a team player, because adv. basilisk with another alien (even granger) can kill a battlesuit given enough time. It would encourage teamplay on both alien and human side. Humans should help and cover each other, and aliens would hunt together. Battlesuits are especially juicy target for basilisks, because they can't have helmets.
- healing aura goes to granger. Grangers are losing their wits out of boredom, and aliens need some helpful class for low skill players.

When is the next dev game ?

[David]

Now because teslas would be impossible to build near reactor, humans would get a good tool for setting up forward bases at S2, without strenghtening human main base defences. And nothing of value would be lost - no one uses teslas in 1.1, I keep asking people because i remember seeing them used a year ago or so, but everyone tells me they suck.

They might not in 1.1, but in 1.2 they are a lot more useful and are used.

- poison breath doesn't work on battlesuits (i think it sounds silly and unnatural)

It's only unnatural if the suit is fully sealed.  Making a suit like that have an internal air supply etc would add a lot of expense, that solders would probably prefer be spent on making it stop bullets better.  As I recall, none of the gear is designed for fighting aliens, so it's entirely possible that the use it was designed for didn't require defence against gas.

- healing aura goes to granger. Grangers are losing their wits out of boredom, and aliens need some helpful class for low skill players.

That would put grangers near the front line, where they'll just die.  If there's nothing left to build, then evolve .

When is the next dev game ?

19:00 GMT today, about an hour and a half time.

[Norfenstein]

How do you convince something that grenades can work well in S1 when they're disabled ?

I'm sorry, I meant convince me that there's a problem that moving grenades to stage 1 would solve, because I don't see one, and I don't believe it would make things more fun by itself.

Here's an idea for repeaters.
...

Teslas are indeed useful now, especially with the new repeaters. For instance, Nexus has a couple places where you can use a repeater and two teslas to seal off doors quite effectively. It's also good to have one in your main base to ward off marauders.

- advanced basilisk is invisible on radar as long as its stationary. In 1.1 helmets are a hard counter to basilisks, and so are battlesuits. With this change helmets would still help, but basilisks would be worth upgrading.
- poison breath doesn't work on battlesuits (i think it sounds silly and unnatural)
- while holding a marine, basilisk is immune to friendly fire
- advanced basilisk can grab battlesuits, but with a catch: it can't both attack and hold at the same time. As soon as basilisk starts scratching the battlesuit, battlesuit is only limited like 1.1 basilisk (battlesuit can rotate but not move). But if basilisk refrains from attacking, battlesuit can't even rotate. Gameplay implications: 1) adv. basilisks has interesting choices to make 2) adv. basilisks can grab battlesuits from behind and attack if they want to deal damage 3) adv. basilisk becomes a team player, because adv. basilisk with another alien (even granger) can kill a battlesuit given enough time. It would encourage teamplay on both alien and human side. Humans should help and cover each other, and aliens would hunt together. Battlesuits are especially juicy target for basilisks, because they can't have helmets.

I think you should try things out as we currently have them first. The basilisk is a much more useful class now, and not nearly as reliant on stealth. The gas doesn't poison anymore, but it does slow humans down (making them easier targets for teammates), and their regeneration makes them good at hitting-and-running even when humans know where they are. And, also, we've been playtesting without friendly fire (except for structures).

- healing aura goes to granger. Grangers are losing their wits out of boredom, and aliens need some helpful class for low skill players.

The basilisk is a worthy class for low skill players, and now that aliens get partial frags it's not impossible for them to afford one. Just follow your teammates around as a dretch and take bites out of whomever they're attacking until you have a frag.

[Norfenstein]

The games are on the US server today. Official start time is in 20 minutes, but it looks like there're 5 people on there right now already (soon to be 6).

[borsuk]

Impressions from yesterday's games:
- many things are hard to judge properly with 150-180 ping
- Repeaters allow humans to crawl their bases forward, until they can reach alien base from the safety of their turrets. But overall, repeaters like this are more interesting than 1.1 stalemate
- Humans go out at S1, deathmatch as usual, don't attack alien buildings, then retreat
- many if not most games still end during Sudden Death, which encourages humans to camp even more. Humans are at a disadvantage when attacking, especially during Sudden Death. They don't regenerate health, armour, and move slowly.
- Creep coverage is buggy on some/all maps. On nexus6, aliens can plant structures in upper hallways without any eggs nearby. Does Overmind generate huge (vertical) radius or what ? On nano, which looks like a repainted CTF map, aliens can plant structures as far as the middle of the map (upper level, I think it's called 'Tower'), in red hallway, and at the start of blue hallway. Health regen icon is lighted up. The server was empty, default buildings.
- OnCreep regeneration status icon is not nearly as conspicuous as it should be. Unless you're specifically looking for it, it's easy to miss.
- Aliens got +50 building points with no catches, right ? The way repeaters work forces humans to spread their buildings a bit, but aliens have no such restriction (ok, there's grenade and luci spam). A bit later in the game aliens can make their base more compact than humans.
- maybe it was just lag (most people seemed to be from Europe), but Marauder was the least popular class. I guess it works as base raider and jetpack hunter.
- as expected, people say things like "Someone play a basilisk and follow me because I want healing for free and playing basilisk myself is beneath me". Not literally, of course. Norfenstein said putting healing aura on granger (non-combat alien) would lead to many granger deaths (feedings), but I disagree. Grangers are poor at combat so most players naturally learn to keep distance and stay behind fellow aliens' backs. Meanwhile basilisks (combat aliens) with heal aura are discoraged from fighting, from taking risks etc. This leads to conflict of interests. Basilisk would like to have some action, other players want it to stay put like a granger.
- interface improvements are very nice. I also like turret sounds (it alerts humans, and allows aliens to learn turret dodging better). Overcharged luci is nice.
- Friendly Fire off sucks.
- Dretches disallowed to damage ...teslas ? Because, what, they rotate too slow ? Come on ! (that's what Help section says)
- It would make sense to give aliens... ability to dodge. But for different reasons. Dragoon's pounce is very flexible and precise, but other aliens' jumps are very predictable. 1.1 marauders are more floaty. 1.2 basilisks jump higher, this makes them more floaty (with justification like "to make it easier to jump on heads - probably the same as 1.1 marauder). Aliens have infinite stamina, and keys to spare (no boost, reload, buy stuff...). I think they should get dodge in the form of a *shorter*, easier to control jump. Essentially aliens like dretch, basilisk, marauder would have two jump keys - normal jump (like now) and short jump. Alternatively, jumping could work like dragoon's pounce (ability to choose direction, distance), just without damage.

[David]

One thing I would like is feedback for the basi, so it knows who it's healing.  It's hard to stay out from under people's feet, and I'm never sure how close I need to be.

[PureNoob]

- Repeaters allow humans to crawl their bases forward, until they can reach alien base from the safety of their turrets. But overall, repeaters like this are more interesting than 1.1 stalemate

Yes, you can get turrets... 2 turrets... wow.

- Humans go out at S1, deathmatch as usual, don't attack alien buildings, then retreat

The problem is that people (me) prefer going back to the base when aliens hits me (->1 hit, have to use medkit -> 2nd hit, no medkit, back to base).

- many if not most games still end during Sudden Death, which encourages humans to camp even more. Humans are at a disadvantage when attacking, especially during Sudden Death. They don't regenerate health, armour, and move slowly.

That's true and it is because Tyrant does such a ridiculous amount of damage so going out without 100 hp is bad. Couple of small aliens hit you -> back to base.
-

Creep coverage is buggy on some/all maps. On nexus6, aliens can plant structures in upper hallways without any eggs nearby. Does Overmind generate huge (vertical) radius or what ?

It is either the Overmind or the eggs which are located on the upper platform. It is normal. I can build tubes on top of the middle building at ATCS when I have egg inside.

On nano, which looks like a repainted CTF map, aliens can plant structures as far as the middle of the map (upper level, I think it's called 'Tower'), in red hallway, and at the start of blue hallway. Health regen icon is lighted up. The server was empty, default buildings.

It is a small map so it is possible.

- as expected, people say things like "Someone play a basilisk and follow me because I want healing for free and playing basilisk myself is beneath me". Not literally, of course. Norfenstein said putting healing aura on granger (non-combat alien) would lead to many granger deaths (feedings), but I disagree. Grangers are poor at combat so most players naturally learn to keep distance and stay behind fellow aliens' backs. Meanwhile basilisks (combat aliens) with heal aura are discoraged from fighting, from taking risks etc. This leads to conflict of interests. Basilisk would like to have some action, other players want it to stay put like a granger.

It wouldn't make much sense to give healing to... granger. And granger is so slow and fat (<3) that it would have no chance to survive when other aliens die or retreat. I fail to see how healing would discourage basilisks. Maybe not-so-skillful player don't want to go fight and feed and therefore prefer healing but I think more experienced players will fight normally and heal teammates when regenerating. Basilisk healing might cause situations where most of aliens just camp as a basi and heal the few pros who still keep fighting... I don't know if it is a good or bad thing because it depends on many factors. It could be a new "evil" like camping.

- Friendly Fire off sucks.

Yep. About shooting team mates... Did anyone notice when I managed to fire my team mate, who was standing at the alien base door (Tremor), with a almost fully charged luci shot and the team mate flew to the windows at the other side of the room? That was quite funny weird.

- Dretches disallowed to damage ...teslas ? Because, what, they rotate too slow ? Come on ! (that's what Help section says)

Can you even get near teslas before you burn to crisp?

[borsuk]

- Humans go out at S1, deathmatch as usual, don't attack alien buildings, then retreat

The problem is that people (me) prefer going back to the base when aliens hits me (->1 hit, have to use medkit -> 2nd hit, no medkit, back to base).

It wouldn't make much sense to give healing to... granger. And granger is so slow and fat (<3) that it would have no chance to survive when other aliens die or retreat. I fail to see how healing would discourage basilisks. Maybe not-so-skillful player don't want to go fight and feed and therefore prefer healing but I think more experienced players will fight normally and heal teammates when regenerating. Basilisk healing might cause situations where most of aliens just camp as a basi and heal the few pros who still keep fighting... I don't know if it is a good or bad thing because it depends on many factors. It could be a new "evil" like camping.

Dev games are too rare to provide a meaningful sample. And because of people involved humans are likely to be more agressive than on average server. I'd say work on 1.2 a bit more, iron out some wrinkles, and release it. It's already quite nice and exposing it to more people would help find more bugs and balance issues.

- Dretches disallowed to damage ...teslas ? Because, what, they rotate too slow ? Come on ! (that's what Help section says)

Can you even get near teslas before you burn to crisp?

My point exactly - it's extremely hard to reach a tesla as dretch. Most easily if there's a tyrant attacking base and tesla focuses on it. That's why I think disallowing damage to teslas is overkill. Not that it matters much - it is very rare to be able to reach a tesla as dretch...

I'm deffinitely looking forward to more development games.

b0rsuk

[David]

Dretches can't attack any buildings, unless they are still glowy-blue, then they can attack them all.

[Asvarox]

Nice sig btw, though we've been doing 19:00 GMT since the last (stupid) daylight savings time change. 15:00 on the east coast of the United States.

Will fix this asap, thanks

Dev games are too rare to provide a meaningful sample. And because of people involved humans are likely to be more agressive than on average server.

That's true, but TBH we can't do anything about that, maybe simulate average server("Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?" ).

My point exactly - it's extremely hard to reach a tesla as dretch. Most easily if there's a tyrant attacking base and tesla focuses on it. That's why I think disallowing damage to teslas is overkill. Not that it matters much - it is very rare to be able to reach a tesla as dretch...

I think it's supposed to be like that - rets can easily bigger aliens, but fail against smaller ones, because they can go trough them before they aim. Teslas are weaker, but they push smaller aliens away and don't have to spin up.

[kevlarman]

Nice sig btw, though we've been doing 19:00 GMT since the last (stupid) daylight savings time change. 15:00 on the east coast of the United States.

Will fix this asap, thanks

Dev games are too rare to provide a meaningful sample. And because of people involved humans are likely to be more agressive than on average server.

That's true, but TBH we can't do anything about that, maybe simulate average server("Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?" ).

My point exactly - it's extremely hard to reach a tesla as dretch. Most easily if there's a tyrant attacking base and tesla focuses on it. That's why I think disallowing damage to teslas is overkill. Not that it matters much - it is very rare to be able to reach a tesla as dretch...

I think it's supposed to be like that - rets can easily bigger aliens, but fail against smaller ones, because they can go trough them before they aim. Teslas are weaker, but they push smaller aliens away and don't have to spin up.

sigged

[Cadynum]

After some more games I'd like to take another opportunity to compile a list of things I think should be changed:

• Poison is too strong and annoying. I'd reduce it's damage to half and completely remove / drastically reduce the aim bumping. Those bumps are only annoying and doesn't make you aim worse at all.
• No basilisk healing aura for other aliens - It makes building forward eggs much less important. Before the stage2 booster I think the alien team is too strong with the fast healing. Also i don't think you should force a fighting class to be a boring medic. The basilisk would still benefit from it's faster healing though.
• Dretches being able to damage buildings. I don't see how it would make things horribly unbalanced. With a properly built base the dretches will die quickly enough nonetheless. The argument that dretches could take a base down completely doesn't hold. If you build a base like that you deserve to lose. A slightly valid argument however would be that the dretches could mindlessly rush the human base forcing tedious repairing. However, if the dretches do rush like that, chances are you will kill them and gain stage 2 with the DC. Which brings us to,
• Bump up the DC effect a notch - I don't think it's valuable enough. When aliens are attacking they usually take down stuff quickly enough for the DC to have no effect at all. I think you could easily double it's repair rate to compensate for the previous idea without making it overpowered.
• Bump the massdriver damage from 38 to 40 or preferably more (45 perhaps?). It would make it noticeably better against basis and goons. I think it's too expensive right now compared to the lasgun, which in many cases canis better than the MD. (You will also need a batterypack to make it effective, furtherer bumping up it's expense)
• The massdriver could have 1 clip like the lasgun, but should overheat if you shoot it too frequently. It will constantly cool down if you don't fire however. If you manage to overheat it you should not be able to fire until it's completely cooled down. I think it could overheat after 7 shots or so. The idea of this change is mainly to remain the same effectiveness against aliens, but make it possible to shoot down structures with it.
• Slightly smaller size and health for the Adv. Goon. - I think it's too clumpsy compared to the stage1 goon. I'd actually prefer the smaller goon in a fight as aliens. Also, for example on ATCS it's inferior to the normal goon in the bases since it can't jump up in that "gap". The reduced health is to compensate for the smaller size. (I know I've suggested this before btw)