Author Topic: Planned Development Games  (Read 741143 times)

amz181

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #450 on: July 02, 2009, 02:30:23 am »
  • Add some kind of accessory (e.g. battery pack) like a MediKit or First Aid Kit that heals other players, or something like a syringe instead of weapon.
  • Also, some kind of barrier needs to be added as a human constructable.
  • Integrated helmet-like features in the battlesuite - shit costs 400 credits, needs more stuff other than more protection.
  • A flying alien would also be cool
  • For basilisk or marauder - spitting acid that acts like poison and distracts view but does more damage and lasts for a lesser amount of time

May sound pointless - just my 2 credits :P

1.) i believe thats called a medkit
2.) Variety between the two teams is one of the drawing points of trem, i dont want them to be the same
3.) That completely undermines the point of a helmet. The beauty of each item is that it has its pros and cons.
4.) Open the sky project
5.) Basi gas?

danmal

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #451 on: July 02, 2009, 05:09:09 am »
1.) i believe thats called a medkit

I think he wants something that heals other players not himself. EG the medigun in TF2 or the medkit in UrT.

Asvarox

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #452 on: July 02, 2009, 07:51:01 am »
Trem 1.2 IS NOT TremX sir.
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Meisseli

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #453 on: July 02, 2009, 10:18:42 pm »
So, about the games today...

The new dodge/sprint is really horrible. Usually you have your index, middle and ring finger in WASD keys, little finger in sprint and thumb in space. That's already 5 fingers used. Trying to use that dodge effectively is a pain if you don't happen to be a mutant. I liked the old dodge much more.

I'm kind of mixed with camper evos... It sort of feels useless being a dretch and humans camping at their base, since you can't do much damage. Well, you could do some damage but then again you'll harm the team more by feeding them. And dretch is so useless, boring class now, at least rifles can make ranged attacks but the dretch in s2 and s3... well, just a bunch of cannon fodder to maintain the human path to s5.

The new regeneration system - uhh... It only makes aliens camp behind corners more, build some bases there, maybe get few aliens even stuck as basi for a whole 30min game... I find that lot of the 1.1 greatness - the really fast gameplay just took a big hit there with alien mobility almost completely cut off. Battling in 1.1 was intensive, fast, reflexes, now it just feels like a lot slower. And I don't know about camp, it might be that camp might be even worse now that you can't get camp evos anymore.

I'll add more if I remember, I'll go eat now.


EDIT: Some improvements on human building though, moving to plant in Niveus in a clangame? That would've been impossible in 1.1.

Cadynum

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #454 on: July 02, 2009, 10:57:42 pm »
I think dodge worked surprisingly well without unlagged. In addition to my last big fat post, I'm going to add some things:
¤ Dretches are too weak - Still horribly useless.
¤ The basi's gas is boring for humans and extremely useful while executed with teamwork - How about removing the aim-distortion and make it exclusively slow them down?
Quote
<Saliva> gassing is bad because its not fun for humans
<Saliva> suddenly you can't aim at all anymore
<Saliva> its like being out of the game for the duration it lasts
¤ BP regeneration is too fast. It's not valuable enough to attack a base before SD.
¤ Repeaters can't power more than 20bp when you're moving, even if stuff is marked at the rc's power zone.

janev

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #455 on: July 02, 2009, 11:11:52 pm »
A few things that come to mind for me are:
Aliens:
- The basilisks seemed a bit stretched having to a) stay alive to provide teammates with healing b)fight c) use gas for crowd control. The class seems torn between playing its own game(fighting) and risking losing the teams healing ability (and thus handicapping the team). Of course YMMV. 
- Tyrants seemed weak considering its cost with them not being able to effectively attack bases because of turret damage and the general changes to its mobility. As it is I would probably not choose the tyrant for any task. It feels bulky and weird.
- Advanced goons seemed to be a bit too big to comfortably navigate the maps that already exist(granted, I do feel the same about 1.1 advanced goon).
- Teamwork is forced and I wonder how a public game will look where there are new players thrown into the mix. Will seasoned players be forced to play basilisk game after game after game (ad nauseam)
- Being stuck as a dretch is not very much fun beyond stage 1:>

Humans:
- I like the changes that promote forward building and in general the building system seems to work smoothly for a single builder. I would however like some sort of way for a human builder to get armour and a helmet without having to stop building.
- The strength of basilisk gas on a coordinated group should be tested more.
- Pulse rifle seems very strong. 

General:
The lack of waiting money made dretch and builders annoying to play. Perhaps some sort of free armour and helmet that goes with the construction kit (that gets removed when you buy something else) would work?  As for dretch I would like to see the reward for it boosted a bit as well as its usefulness. Or is it meant to be just a kamikaze poison pill that you throw at the other team in waves(that might get pretty frustrating for newbies).
Author of "The quick beginner's guide to playing tremulous"
Founding member of the "undefeated in clanwars since 2006" club and narcissist extraordinaire.


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Meisseli

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #456 on: July 02, 2009, 11:30:16 pm »
Oh and yeah I agree, basilisk just really is boring now. Being a jack-of-all-trades... You're supposed to not die since the team depends on you, you're supposed to heal, you're supposed to fart.. It's so much more boring than sneaking and grabbing a human.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 12:24:24 am by Meisseli »

Saliva

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #457 on: July 03, 2009, 02:16:15 am »
Im going to concentrate on what is in my opinion the biggest flaw in 1.2

The problem is the dretch in scrims. Its alright in public games where humans are disorganized and their aiming ability is poor but when skilled human players band together dretches don't stand a chance even in locations that benefits them. (the middle area in atcs for example)

Dretches aren't any better in 1.1 either but the difference is that aliens get camper evos. It means that you don't need to use the dretch and instead avoid the humans for camp evos and then evolve to something that has a good chance in killing them. Basilisk for example is at least 3 times better than a dretch because of the huge hp increase.

The problem is that dretches survival is based on evasion. The more skilled the human is at aiming the harder it is for the dretch to survive. On the other hand the worse the opposing human is at aiming the easier it is for the dretch. Its wrong that the effectiveness of the dretch depends so much on the opposing team. The effectiveness should depend mostly on the alien player.

The best solution to the problem would be that the dretch was powerful enough that there is no need for camper evos. The only way to balance it for both scrims and pub games would be to reduce its dependance on evasion. I suggest to increase its hp to 50 and increase its size by 50%. The values need thorough testing of course. That is the only way i can think of to make the dretch work while still keeping its flavor. Other solution would be to redo the dretch but im not sure anyone wants that.

Also dretches should be able to damage turrets because if your team has no evos you can do absolutely nothing to the human team if they are camping especially if they have s2-s3. If it makes rushes in the beginning too easy for aliens they could get the ability to damage turrets later in the game. Aliens could get adv. dretch s2 that could damage buildings for example.
 

kevlarman

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #458 on: July 03, 2009, 05:10:07 am »
The new dodge/sprint is really horrible. Usually you have your index, middle and ring finger in WASD keys, little finger in sprint and thumb in space. That's already 5 fingers used. Trying to use that dodge effectively is a pain if you don't happen to be a mutant. I liked the old dodge much more.
the particular implementation isn't set in stone yet, if there's a way you think would be more intuitive or easier to use, don't keep it to yourself.
Also dretches should be able to damage turrets because if your team has no evos you can do absolutely nothing to the human team if they are camping especially if they have s2-s3. If it makes rushes in the beginning too easy for aliens they could get the ability to damage turrets later in the game. Aliens could get adv. dretch s2 that could damage buildings for example.
this was how things originally were, but it ended up being horribly imbalanced (dretches were easily capable of basically destroying an entire base).
Quote from: Asvarox link=topic=8622.msg169333#msg169333
Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?
the dretch bites.
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|..d| #
|.@.-##
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Meisseli

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #459 on: July 03, 2009, 11:19:55 am »
the particular implementation isn't set in stone yet, if there's a way you think would be more intuitive or easier to use, don't keep it to yourself.
Well, I don't think anything needs to be done to human dodging at all. Now, I have no idea how it works in unlagged, but in 1.1 on lagged you have plenty of tricks to choose. You can sidestep, jump over aliens, circle around them, bunnyhop to safety, crouch etc. It's a great part of the game, I love dodging as it is in 1.1.

But if you want the dodge, as I said in the game, maybe make some kind of toggle button for sprint, or perhaps have sprint on at all times (e.g. bind w "+forward;+sprint"). Or maybe execute it by double-tapping the WASD keys?

By the way someone pointed out the lack of camp evos in a funny way: in clangames or so, you could just win one game, and in the rest of the rounds not spawn as humans at all. Dretches can't destroy nodes and don't get camp evos == draw :)
this was how things originally were, but it ended up being horribly imbalanced (dretches were easily capable of basically destroying an entire base).
As to turrets, can't they just be placed well enough to protect from the dretches? I'd like to see dretch being able to kill turrets again too.

I don't like the idea of Saliva's 50hp dretch. Maybe increase it's headshot damage up a bit, to 70-ish? Or boost it's hit points by +5?

Asvarox

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #460 on: July 03, 2009, 12:49:03 pm »
Quote
By the way someone pointed out the lack of camp evos in a funny way: in clangames or so, you could just win one game, and in the rest of the rounds not spawn as humans at all. Dretches can't destroy nodes and don't get camp evos == draw Smiley
1.2 Normal grangers can attack structures :granger:
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Amanieu

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #461 on: July 03, 2009, 12:50:44 pm »
This is kinda like the TremX adv dretch. It has 50hp and can attack all buildables.
Quote
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Saliva

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #462 on: July 03, 2009, 01:48:02 pm »
Quote
I don't like the idea of Saliva's 50hp dretch. Maybe increase it's headshot damage up a bit, to 70-ish? Or boost it's hit points by +5?

I know that the suggestion is a radical change and because of that hard to accept. Its the only way i can think of to improve the dretch for organized games but staying about as powerful in public games. If a low skill human player shoots it he will hit it more often because of bigger hitbox making it about as powerful as the old dretch. Skilled players are not able to kill the dretch as fast as before because of increased hp. So the change only affects skilled players.

Could the devs comment on this? I would really like to know what you think.

temple

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #463 on: July 03, 2009, 02:49:18 pm »
Don't fix things that aren't broken.  

If you don't like basilisks, you probably aren't with good them.  Basilisks in 1.1 were good but it took above average skill.  1.2 basilisks are pretty good all around and insane in the right hands.

Don't balance the game around competition.  Make a solid patch and let the clans modify it for comp.  Anything else is developmental suicide.

Dretches, eh.  Don't modify them with too much.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 02:51:44 pm by temple »

Asvarox

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #464 on: July 03, 2009, 04:21:21 pm »
Quote
- Tyrants seemed weak considering its cost with them not being able to effectively attack bases because of turret damage and the general changes to its mobility. As it is I would probably not choose the tyrant for any task. It feels bulky and weird.
Actually tyrant is extremely powerful, especially charge which allows you to kill arm+helm guy without using "hands". Also, even if rets are effective in killing rants, rants can take out at least one of them before they start shoot and another one before it dies. Note "at least". The only thing I would change in them is "players eye" position, it seems quite too high.
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F50

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #465 on: July 03, 2009, 05:24:52 pm »
I would not like to see the dretch personality of dodging changed. Revert camper evos if you have to, but please, no lisk-sized dretch. As for forced teamwork, I do not understand why an advanced player coudln't just build a forward booster and completely forget about lisk-heal. On smaller maps like UTCS, you may be able to do with the booster in your base. Also, I have found that when trying to support larger aliens as a lisk, I find myself left behind often, so people may not use the lisk even if a more experienced player were to try to lisk for his team all game.

I can see how the lisk-all-game thing could happen in scrims though. Perhaps the pros/cons of camper evos should be re-evaluated?

« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 05:28:22 pm by F50 »
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kevlarman

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #466 on: July 03, 2009, 11:15:32 pm »
the particular implementation isn't set in stone yet, if there's a way you think would be more intuitive or easier to use, don't keep it to yourself.
Well, I don't think anything needs to be done to human dodging at all. Now, I have no idea how it works in unlagged, but in 1.1 on lagged you have plenty of tricks to choose. You can sidestep, jump over aliens, circle around them, bunnyhop to safety, crouch etc. It's a great part of the game, I love dodging as it is in 1.1.

But if you want the dodge, as I said in the game, maybe make some kind of toggle button for sprint, or perhaps have sprint on at all times (e.g. bind w "+forward;+sprint"). Or maybe execute it by double-tapping the WASD keys?
you can already toggle it with some clever binds:
Code: [Select]
seta sprinton "+button8;set togglesprint vstr sprintoff"
seta sprintoff "-button8;set togglesprint vstr sprinton"
vstr sprintoff
bind <key> "vstr togglesprint"
Quote from: Asvarox link=topic=8622.msg169333#msg169333
Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?
the dretch bites.
-----
|..d| #
|.@.-##
-----

Bissig

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #467 on: July 04, 2009, 01:01:11 am »
+button and -button do work now? Those where removed from q3 as a cheat prevention measure..

kevlarman

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #468 on: July 04, 2009, 01:24:35 am »
+button and -button do work now? Those where removed from q3 as a cheat prevention measure..
no they weren't, the ability to bind to key releases was, but that's completely unrelated to this.
Quote from: Asvarox link=topic=8622.msg169333#msg169333
Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?
the dretch bites.
-----
|..d| #
|.@.-##
-----

Norfenstein

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #469 on: July 04, 2009, 02:37:12 am »
Humans go out at S1, deathmatch as usual, don't attack alien buildings, then retreat
Aliens hardly attack human bases at stage 1 too. I see nothing wrong with this.

Aliens got +50 building points with no catches, right ?
Wrong: aliens' build queue timer is 50% higher than humans, so those extra 50 build points return slower than the first 100 (because of variable rate build point queuing). The bp queue happens to be broken right now though :x



Poison is too strong and annoying. I'd reduce it's damage to half and completely remove / drastically reduce the aim bumping. Those bumps are only annoying and doesn't make you aim worse at all.
I feel like it'd be too weak if it did any less damage. And I think in the majority of cases all it really does is make humans waste their medkit, which they often have to use after a fight anyway. I could maybe see reducing the time it lasts.

No basilisk healing aura for other aliens - It makes building forward eggs much less important. Before the stage2 booster I think the alien team is too strong with the fast healing. Also i don't think you should force a fighting class to be a boring medic. The basilisk would still benefit from it's faster healing though.
Would it be better to have a healing class that doesn't fight? I don't think they're "forced" to be just healers anyway - it's not like they have to do anything to heal teammates; teammates just have to get close to them. And between the grab and the gas they're already the best support class for aliens, so giving them the healing aura makes the most sense. And I really don't want to just remove teammate-healing altogether.

Dretches being able to damage buildings. I don't see how it would make things horribly unbalanced. With a properly built base the dretches will die quickly enough nonetheless. The argument that dretches could take a base down completely doesn't hold. If you build a base like that you deserve to lose.
The problem is that you have be certain that every structure you have is covered by turrets from every angle. I don't think humans deserve to lose just because a fast, tiny class with wallwalking can find a blind spot to kill the armoury from.

I think you could easily double it's repair rate to compensate for the previous idea without making it overpowered.
You could build two DCs. They're not really supposed to have an effect during attacks, they're meant to clean up the minor damage between attacks, so humans don't have to waste time repairing every little ding. I'll think about bumping it up a little though.

The massdriver could have 1 clip like the lasgun, but should overheat if you shoot it too frequently. It will constantly cool down if you don't fire however. If you manage to overheat it you should not be able to fire until it's completely cooled down. I think it could overheat after 7 shots or so. The idea of this change is mainly to remain the same effectiveness against aliens, but make it possible to shoot down structures with it.
It would also make the battery pack less vital for the mass driver. I like the idea of overheating in general, but I don't think I want to rebalance the mass driver for it now. We can increase the damage to 40 though.

Slightly smaller size and health for the Adv. Goon.
I don't really want to reduce the health, but I'll think about reducing the size a bit.



In the past the DC made turrets smarter and better.  Does it still do that?
No, no effect on turrets at all.



There's no reason for Basi being able to disable the whole human team with a cunning gas, or being the best alien there is - due to regeneration.
Basi was a very great weapon with a skilled player before, no need to pump it's steroids way up.
Anyone skilled enough to be a useful basilisk in 1.1 could always be of considerably more worth to their team with a higher class. And I hardly think it's "the best alien there is" now.



Quote from: Norf
Pounce damage is unchanged. What has changed is that light armour no longer gives as much protection against nonlocational damage as light armour + helmet. And headchomps still do significantly more damage than the pounce.
Wut? Since when human with armour and helmet was better than a regular dragoon or ADVANCED dragoon? :/ 
Huh? I didn't say humans with whatever is/was better than any alien class. In 1.1 nonlocational damage was basically bugged so that adding a helmet to light armour didn't add any protection, and light armour alone was disproportionately strong.



You have never seen ExistentialRisk pwning hordes of enemies with his awesome basi. He could rack up 50 basi kills until S3 and totally demoralize the human team. And keep in mind: I am not talking about a noob human team.
incidentally, he was the one who requested that basi jump height be increased to be able to jump on a battlesuit's head.

Do you mean Tremulous is being balanced for corner cases ? Why not just raise basilisk cost to 6 evos to keep obvious noobs like me from using it ? Surely pro players won't have a problem spending 6 evos on each basilisk.
Jumping on humans' heads as a basilisk isn't a corner case, it's... whatever the opposite of a corner case is.


...
So hopefully, you can see my point.
I thought of this recently myself actually and do consider it a problem (mostly from the standpoint of humans being able to build infinite working teles). I'm still thinking about the best way to deal with it.

Cadynum

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #470 on: July 04, 2009, 03:42:33 am »
No basilisk healing aura for other aliens - It makes building forward eggs much less important. Before the stage2 booster I think the alien team is too strong with the fast healing. Also i don't think you should force a fighting class to be a boring medic. The basilisk would still benefit from it's faster healing though.
Would it be better to have a healing class that doesn't fight? I don't think they're "forced" to be just healers anyway - it's not like they have to do anything to heal teammates; teammates just have to get close to them. And between the grab and the gas they're already the best support class for aliens, so giving them the healing aura makes the most sense. And I really don't want to just remove teammate-healing altogether.
I think I expressed myself a bit clumsy - My primary reason for not allowing basilisks to heal is because it makes forward building way less vital for aliens.
With 140BP i think you can expect aliens to forward build at least an egg and a booster at stage 2.
Introducing the healing aura basically makes the whole "heal faster at creep" idea obsolete since you're very likely to have at least one basilisk when they're so valuable. And I really liked that idea :)

Secondary: (please emphasis that this isn't a real reason, and will of course never happen in a game with experienced players. However most games won't have the luxury of those experienced players) They're being forced medics since unless you really have to build a forward egg / booster, builders will rely on basilisks and be less likely to do so.
I also think the stage 1 basilisk is far better waiting around a corner providing quick regeneration for fighters instead of running out with it's pretty low health at 60hp and risk dieing, thus forcing the other aliens to retreat further back and lose control of the spot they fought in.

Norfenstein

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #471 on: July 04, 2009, 03:55:29 am »
¤ The basi's gas is boring for humans and extremely useful while executed with teamwork - How about removing the aim-distortion and make it exclusively slow them down?
Quote
<Saliva> gassing is bad because its not fun for humans
<Saliva> suddenly you can't aim at all anymore
<Saliva> its like being out of the game for the duration it lasts
That's kind of a good point. The reason I like the aim muddling is so basilisks have something to make it easier to close in for a grab (and also to cock up nasty mdrivers). Maybe we can cut how long it lasts to the repeat rate of gas (which I think would make it 1/4 its current duration).

¤ BP regeneration is too fast. It's not valuable enough to attack a base before SD.
Are you sure the bug with the queuing wasn't still in place when you played last? I know it was last Saturday, but I just tried the latest build and couldn't get it, so hopefully tomorrow will be good. I'd be fine with making it slower anyway though.

¤ Repeaters can't power more than 20bp when you're moving, even if stuff is marked at the rc's power zone.
That's an interesting point: repeaters don't really work for moving an entire base anymore. I don't like the idea of mixing power supply between the reactor and repeaters though -- the whole thing is already uncomfortably complicated -- and considering that moving is easier now anyway because of repeaters, I'm inclined to just accept it.

I also think the stage 1 basilisk is far better waiting around a corner providing quick regeneration for fighters instead of running out with it's pretty low health at 60hp and risk dieing, thus forcing the other aliens to retreat further back and lose control of the spot they fought in.
That's true, but in that situation the basilisk is awesome at covering other aliens running away from humans after a base attack: goons/marauders rush in and hit the base, run away with low health, basilisk surprises chasing humans and at least disrupts humans enough for the teammates to get away, if it can't just kill the humans outright.



Tyrants seemed weak considering its cost with them not being able to effectively attack bases because of turret damage and the general changes to its mobility. As it is I would probably not choose the tyrant for any task. It feels bulky and weird.
I find the tyrant absolutely essential for draining humans of credits at stage 3. They don't have to be good at everything (we've kind of focused on the advanced goon and advanced marauder as base attackers).



Quote
I don't like the idea of Saliva's 50hp dretch. Maybe increase it's headshot damage up a bit, to 70-ish? Or boost it's hit points by +5?

I know that the suggestion is a radical change and because of that hard to accept. Its the only way i can think of to improve the dretch for organized games but staying about as powerful in public games. If a low skill human player shoots it he will hit it more often because of bigger hitbox making it about as powerful as the old dretch. Skilled players are not able to kill the dretch as fast as before because of increased hp. So the change only affects skilled players.

Could the devs comment on this? I would really like to know what you think.
We're not going to make the dretch a wimpy basilisk. The problem is that dretches can't dodge well enough, and if you're talking about radical changes, I've had something in mind for, uh, ever, that I never seriously thought was necessary...

(storytime)

I suppose by now there's probably not more than a handful of Tremulous players that also played Gloom, a Quake 2 mod. Tremulous came out of the Gloom community, and has major parallels with it (aliens versus humans, building from a pool of build points, kill things to get a better class). The equivalent of the dretch in Gloom was the hatchling: tiny, low damage, couldn't survive one hit from the human builder class. And every class was worth the same amount when killed. There was no wallwalking either, and just with bunnyhopping it wasn't faster than humans.

But it had a grapple.

It still sucked as a class, but you could basically warp around hallways unpredictably -- and by god you had to to survive long enough to get close to anything. I'm not saying I want to give the dretch a grapple (really, I was hoping to be done with significant gameplay changes, and to be honest I'd probably rather release 1.2 with the current dretch then spend extra time testing it), but if you're talking about giving it a skill-based way to dodge fire, that's the only way I can think of.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 03:57:43 am by Norfenstein »

{7}wrath

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #472 on: July 04, 2009, 04:03:25 am »
Perhaps have the basilisk gas slow down a humans aiming as well as movement?

kevlarman

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Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #473 on: July 04, 2009, 07:50:06 am »
Perhaps have the basilisk gas slow down a humans aiming as well as movement?
there's no way to do that that can't be scripted around.
Quote from: Asvarox link=topic=8622.msg169333#msg169333
Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?
the dretch bites.
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borsuk

  • Posts: 29
  • Turrets: +7/-3
Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #474 on: July 04, 2009, 09:11:05 am »
Humans go out at S1, deathmatch as usual, don't attack alien buildings, then retreat
Aliens hardly attack human bases at stage 1 too. I see nothing wrong with this.

This is incorrect, at least on servers I play. It is common for S1 aliens to attack human bases. Just watch what happens when aliens discover humans are moving reactor. Immediate alien swarm ! And because humans are so reliant on buildings, it can be quite hard to repel. Note that aliens almost always communicate the news (of RC being moved) to their teammates.
On the other hand, if aliens are moving OM, humans rarely bother to mention it, because it's so hard to capitalize on that. Aliens don't need (1.1) any specific buildings to heal, so a single dragoon can keep them in check. And if it comes to worst, they can be repelled with dretches even if it means a lot of feeding. A couple of humans in alien base = not so  scary, can be defended against with some effort.

On many maps humans NEED to move base as soon as possible. Meanwhile even on maps with awful overmind placement like Tremor, competent alien team can defend the base and push humans back. It's not uncommon to see aliens win despite having no or bad builder. With good enough players, humans won't even reach such base.

Even when humans don't make any blunders and execute base move right, 2 good dragoons can mean the end of the base at S1.
(Note I'm talking mostly about 1.1, I would play 1.2 all the time if I could)

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Poison is too strong and annoying. I'd reduce it's damage to half and completely remove / drastically reduce the aim bumping. Those bumps are only annoying and doesn't make you aim worse at all.
I feel like it'd be too weak if it did any less damage. And I think in the majority of cases all it really does is make humans waste their medkit, which they often have to use after a fight anyway. I could maybe see reducing the time it lasts.

While poison is thematically very fitting for aliens, damage-dealing poison is yet another force pushing humans back towards their base. Except for 96+poison hits, poison kills few marines, and it doesn't make those poisoned easier to kill.
How about making both poisons just slow down marines ? This way they wouldn't have to (couldn't, too...) retreat so much, especially when teammates around can support them. Slowdown from a single dretch might be overpowered, though. How about something different ? Screen flashes white and is completely obscured for 0.5 seconds if you're hit with poison.

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No basilisk healing aura for other aliens - It makes building forward eggs much less important. Before the stage2 booster I think the alien team is too strong with the fast healing. Also i don't think you should force a fighting class to be a boring medic. The basilisk would still benefit from it's faster healing though.
Would it be better to have a healing class that doesn't fight? I don't think they're "forced" to be just healers anyway - it's not like they have to do anything to heal teammates; teammates just have to get close to them. And between the grab and the gas they're already the best support class for aliens, so giving them the healing aura makes the most sense. And I really don't want to just remove teammate-healing altogether.

You know my opinion. It would be better to give healing aura to a class which already doesn't fight, and avoids combat. And no, basilisks aren't strictly forced into healing, but that's what optimal play dictates. Just getting close to basilisk, which is small, fast and can be easy to lose track of, can be hard. You may pursue a basilisk only to see it dying on turrets. Combat basilisk are going to be very unreliable means of healing. They move erraticaly and die often. Wheter a particular basilisk can be a healer for you would depend primarily on that player's personality (how cautious he is) and experience with Tremulous. And it's very hard to judge at a glance, unless you know all basilisk players personally. With healing aura on basilisks, you're going to find out healing aura you benefit from moves, appears, disappears randomly with no predictable pattern.
As I said before, with buildings healing themselves and base defence often relying on strong players, grangers can have very little to do. They're very bored.

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Dretches being able to damage buildings. I don't see how it would make things horribly unbalanced. With a properly built base the dretches will die quickly enough nonetheless. The argument that dretches could take a base down completely doesn't hold. If you build a base like that you deserve to lose.
The problem is that you have be certain that every structure you have is covered by turrets from every angle. I don't think humans deserve to lose just because a fast, tiny class with wallwalking can find a blind spot to kill the armoury from.

I agree - often humans are very strict about the way to build the base. Often they argue and insult each other over which design does or does not suck. Human bases are quite inflexible, and I don't think it's very fun to play when you have only very limited number of ways to put your buildings. I enjoy building alien bases much more. I know egg spam is not a positive effect and would like to see that disappear, but choosing from  between tubes, trappers and hives is fun. You can spot human builders in alien team by the way they build - very conservatively and defensively, booster only at overmind or very close so aliens assaulting human base have to walk across the entire map to reach it.
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I think you could easily double it's repair rate to compensate for the previous idea without making it overpowered.
You could build two DCs. They're not really supposed to have an effect during attacks, they're meant to clean up the minor damage between attacks, so humans don't have to waste time repairing every little ding. I'll think about bumping it up a little though.

Have you given some thought to the idea from Enemy Territory: Quake Wars ? Like in Wolfenstein:Enemy Territory players are usually incapacitated rather than dead when 'killed', and can be revived by a medic. ET:QW took that a step further and introduced 'revivable turrets'. All buildings have huge health, but stop working if health is below 2/3 max. This means buildings are easy to disable, but hard to destroy completely. It is more cost effective to disable three turrets rather than destroy 1 completely. ET:QW may have its flaws, but that particular idea is great. After attackers are repelled, buildings can often be repaired.
To this I would like to add: human buildings should automatically repair to certain percentage, for example 50% (so you still need to repair a bit, but a builder doesn't have to spend hours repairing everything).


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But it had a grapple.

It still sucked as a class, but you could basically warp around hallways unpredictably -- and by god you had to to survive long enough to get close to anything. I'm not saying I want to give the dretch a grapple (really, I was hoping to be done with significant gameplay changes, and to be honest I'd probably rather release 1.2 with the current dretch then spend extra time testing it), but if you're talking about giving it a skill-based way to dodge fire, that's the only way I can think of.

Is there perhaps any way to make wallwalking better ? Changing map architecture is probably out of question, but some maps have simply awful walls and ceiling and they're not good for anything except hiding. Nexus6, Karith are terrible for that.

Wallwalking makes you predictable in a way - you can't afford to jump.

Saliva

  • Posts: 98
  • Turrets: +15/-1
Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #475 on: July 04, 2009, 09:39:45 am »
if you're talking about giving it a skill-based way to dodge fire, that's the only way I can think of.

To make dodging more skill based the dretch needs a special ability. It could have the ability to pounce fast a short distance but the ability has a long cooldown so you can't just spam it. Then a skilled player could use it at a good time to avoid getting hit while an inexperienced player doesn't know when to use it and doesn't do as well because of it. It could also be used as an attack making predicting your opponent more important thus adding another skill factor.

temple

  • Posts: 534
  • Turrets: +37/-42
Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #476 on: July 04, 2009, 01:53:31 pm »
borsuk
You are hijacking this thread to make suggestions that belong on the Feedback forum. 

I just want to say, if it hasn't been said lately, that I do really respect and appreciate the developers for continuing to make changes. 

I like how the developers are addressing camping and its good.

borsuk

  • Posts: 29
  • Turrets: +7/-3
Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #477 on: July 04, 2009, 03:03:51 pm »
borsuk
You are hijacking this thread to make suggestions that belong on the Feedback forum. 

Ok, I'll try to keep my posts here relevant to 1.2 playtesting. Just keep in mind there's a bit of overlap between new versions and new ideas. It's not always possible to separate.

[quote
I just want to say, if it hasn't been said lately, that I do really respect and appreciate the developers for continuing to make changes. 
[/quote]

I wouldn't be here if there wasn't an opportunity for improving Tremulous. Norfenstein can be reasoned with.

Norfenstein

  • Posts: 628
  • Turrets: +81/-78
Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #478 on: July 04, 2009, 05:35:46 pm »
This is incorrect, at least on servers I play. It is common for S1 aliens to attack human bases. Just watch what happens when aliens discover humans are moving reactor. Immediate alien swarm !
Okay, I see what you're saying, but it's only really true when there's an opportunity to capitalize on some weakness in the human base. With aliens now being more reliant on their bases for health, and humans more able to move early on with repeaters, I think there's much less disparity between the teams in this regard -- and I don't think a disparity is necessarily bad anyway. And I often see players intentionally waiting for stage 2 to begin seriously attacking the enemy base.

Have you given some thought to the idea from Enemy Territory: Quake Wars ? Like in Wolfenstein:Enemy Territory players are usually incapacitated rather than dead when 'killed', and can be revived by a medic. ET:QW took that a step further and introduced 'revivable turrets'. All buildings have huge health, but stop working if health is below 2/3 max. This means buildings are easy to disable, but hard to destroy completely. It is more cost effective to disable three turrets rather than destroy 1 completely. ET:QW may have its flaws, but that particular idea is great. After attackers are repelled, buildings can often be repaired.
To this I would like to add: human buildings should automatically repair to certain percentage, for example 50% (so you still need to repair a bit, but a builder doesn't have to spend hours repairing everything).
I don't understand what this would accomplish besides making the build point queue irrelevant for humans, and base attacks even harder for tyrants. What's the difference between repairing a disabled turret and building a new one, besides having to stand around pointing at the disabled turret?

Norfenstein

  • Posts: 628
  • Turrets: +81/-78
Re: Planned Development Games
« Reply #479 on: July 04, 2009, 07:39:51 pm »
Euro server game (edev.tremulous.net) in 20 minutes

Minor balance changes:
  • Mass driver damage increased from 38 to 40
  • Hive swarm speed reduced from 384 (sprint speed) to 320 (jogging speed)
  • Dretch damage increased from 36 to 40
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 07:57:08 pm by Norfenstein »