Teamwork theories....

[googles]

Theory 1: Leader system

This would be a team-voting system to allow a leader for each team to be chosen. There would be an addition to the /callteamvote command to allow the designation of a leader for each team. Upon passing, the vote would simply set a flag to that player as the *leader*, this player would have the following abilities...

1. !denybuild - Disallow any bad builders from messing up base and such.
2. !designate - Allow a player to protect his buildings from being deconned by other teammates.
3. !probation - This would slightly damage a player every 30 seconds when they are not near a creep/repeater or overmind/reactor. This command would also be able to disable these effects, this can be used for noob feeders that just don't get *please stay in base*.

And maybe other types of modification...possibly give double score for killing the leader?

Theory 2: Team support(probation type)

This would disallow players to leave base alone(without valid reason), doing so would result in slight damage every 15-30 seconds. This would also be based upon the team count, eg: If you are the only one on your team, and the other team has 2 players, you would not be damaged, eg. 2: If there are no spawns you would not be damaged, nor would anyone else on the team without spawns. This would force players to go in groups/stay together and work as a team. Also, you would not get hurt being near a creep/repeater or reactor/overmind.

These are just theories i had, feel free to post your own solution theories!

[cactusfrog]

feeders are not a problem in tremulous.  Campers are,disallowing players to leave base alone would make camping even a bigger problem.

[SlackerLinux]

leader system sounds interesting but the part about damaging people that dont camp and are actually playing the game instead of making the game uber-boring i do not like. how about instead of the !probation just turn on radioactive rets a much better solution that has it the right way around forcing humans out of base.

[googles]

You seem to be understanding it wrong, this would only be used FOR feeders, also, maybe i could add a !fight command to do the opposite of !probation, damage them if they are in base so they have to leave. I would also like to say, !probation would not be an admin command, only a leader command, so you cannot obtain this by setleveiing yourself to 9 and !probation people.

[Dracone]

Something where you can set a player so that they are pushed out of the way more easily than others? Would help with blockers.

[googles]

Maybe a *move through teammates* function? to allow you to simply pass through your teammates instead of shoving them :\

[+ OPTIMUS +]

feeding* is the way to learn.
feeding* is the way to slow down enemy rushes.
feeding* is the way to distract the enemy when moving/rebuilding base.
feeding* is the way to weaken, or turn back enemy teams.
feeding* is the way to make your enemy teamkil each others.

feeding*... is the way :-)

*:in this case, feeding means that you attack your enemy at the maximum of your knowledge, without interested in being killed.

[Bissig]

--- snip ---

*:in this case, feeding means that you attack your enemy at the maximum of your knowledge, without interested in being killed.

That's called "suizide bombing" or kamikaze but well...

Instead of the leader system which does NOT fit Tremulous, I'd like more of a team/group assign feature. So, one can make up teams/groups: Team Red, Team Blue, Team Green. Those are coloured different or have a little flag sticking out of their head/ass/whatever. And they have a team channel -> less irrelevant noise in chat.

There would be:

chat to team (like the default "y" in trem)
chat to assigned group

So, only team members of team red can read chat send to team red chat channel. Like the channel system in SSTs client just refined to teams rather then chat channel numbers.

Also, maybe instead of the annoying "come on" taunt different types of signals like:
-Team rush
-Team defend
-Team silence
-Team regroup

This would be complemented by fitting model animations.

[player1]

This is a really interesting idea with a huge potential for adding an entirely new class of non-op/owner/admin/clanmember abuse/griefing/whining/callvoting/n00b-forum-threads. Please discuss.

My two cents is that the leader will be pretty much using negative powers to limit me from doing anything fun or useful, and forcing me to learn to attack with my squaddies (if I'm cool enough to realize what's up). Most players will consider them some new kind of clique-popular posse deputies, and not "true" admins, and chaos, not leadership, will result.

Real leadership consists of coaching me whilst outperforming me, and not being a dick about it.

That being said, for a person with the OPs talents, I think you should just make the thing and try it, and pay no attention to whether or not we think this is another Number Ten Thread, or I post another camping badge. You've shown real leadership, and I salute that. I would include !slap. I would have two leaders, one for offense and one for defense, for each team. During warm-up, you would vote for the attack leader, and vote for the builder. Players would have a kill count from the previous match, and possibly a structure kill count or a structure built count. Callvotes for a new leader would be restricted to 3 to 5 per match. The leaders could abdicate. They could be impeached. Attack leader in charge of probation (can only slap own team). Base leader in charge of denybuild and designate. Possibly automatically generated by killcount and duration of connection to server for small, sparsely populated servers. Killwhore is attack leader, and can slap teammates and put them on probation. Op/admin/owner/lonelyboy15 is designated builder, and can denybuild and designate, unless players on server callteamvote changeleader or changebuilder.

@Bissig: I really like your fireteam chat idea, but since the teams are already Red (A) vs. Blue (H), how about something like Team Gold, Team Black and Team Green for either side? Then I could be with a third of my team on Aliens Black Team, and you could be with a third of your team on Humans Green Team. I would make no keybind for fireteam chat. What ever I say is fireteam-only chat, or console commands, unless and until I use Y & T, for AllMyTeam and AllPlayers chat.

I think both ideas together (along with my "make it two guys per team" idea, of course), could make a cool Leadership Mod.

edit'd, to display those qualities we speak of

[Bissig]

@Player1

God, please, go on a stage and perform! You are so entertaining (no, its actually not ment as an insult)!

[player1]

Look, I even edited it to take the time to respond to your idea. ^^

I would change only the colors you used, and the need for another keybind.

Let me know what you think of how I have horribly mangled your original concept.

Yours,

player1

[doomagent13]

This is one of the best ideas that have come up in this forum.  It would likely need some tweaking based upon play-testing, but it could be done...

[googles]

With the leader theory, along with the /callteamvote leader *player* there would be a vote to revoke the leaders ability.

I would also like to say, killwhoring does not make a good leader, in fact, killwhores are usually the worst type of leaders, they are usually arrogant and would probably probation the whole team so only they could killwhore. A good leader would be someone that fully supports the team, someone that has your back when you rush, and someone that builds when base needs it.

[professor]

i like the leader idea, but i dont like the "kick the shit outta the feeder" idea cuz other wise if u r moving the base u would get killed!!

[googles]

Im getting the feeling your forgetting, you have to VOTE a leader. YOU choose who should be the leader or not, so you have the option to choose a bad leader, or a good leader. If you choose a bad one, you can simply revoke his leadership...

[+ OPTIMUS +]

if you connect to a sever, how do you know who is the guy who is wise enough to be a leader?

about his (maybe fake) name?
his killcount from the previous game?
if he has a color name?
or if he writes that "VOTEME4LEADOR"?

if you want to choose a trustworthy leader, be a resindent on a server or join a clan.

[Bissig]

Look, I even edited it to take the time to respond to your idea. ^^

I would change only the colors you used, and the need for another keybind.

Let me know what you think of how I have horribly mangled your original concept.

Yours,

player1

I don't get your "fireteam chat" reference..

[googles]

Optimus, how do you know who to share to? how do you know who to team up with? how do you know whos a noob or not?, the answer is you don't, you simply have to know a regular that is a good leader, simple as that

[player1]

@Bissig: I call your team-within-the-team a fireteam. Some people call it a squad, or a unit (I said "unit"). I'm saying that instead of having a bindkey for chat to my fireteam/squad/unit/Team Gold, I would just type as normal, and chat would be squad-only, unless or until I press Y or T. I would use Gold, Black and Green, for Attack, Support (Attack B/Defend) & Build, respectively, instead of your suggestion, since Blue and Red represent the Human and Alien teams in toto. Fireteam-only chat would be in red, possibly centered, or echoed and centered.

Fireteam=Squad=Unit=Attack/Support/Build Sub-Components of a Tremulous "Team"

Also, since I don't think the OP should waste too much time arguing with naysayers, I'll just point out that the reaction of +OPTIMUS+, for one, will be fairly typical. It seems to encapsulate several key questions: how will this work, over the course of a match, as better players or known friends or disguised griefers enter and leave the server; how will it work at various populations and how will it handle the wide swings in server population that can occur over an hour-long match; what server size do you envision optimizing play for; and of course: Can you see the potential for both abuse and false cries of abuse, at yet another level within the Tremulous community that this would create? Lastly, many players feel that you should follow people worthy of following, not someone somebody else voted for, and that natual leaders assert themselves naturally, and take charge of the situation, and are "promoted by the battlefield itself", so to speak.

That said, I repeat my earlier imprecation to googles that you simply make the thing and prove me/us/them wrong, and I wish you godspeed and good luck in this endeavor. What do you think of the two leader (attack leader & base leader) idea? How about Bissig's three squad chat idea? You could have players join the attack team who voted for the attack leader and want to follow him and submit to his commands (who would be disciplined with probation and slap) and the players who want to follow the base leader and submit to his authority (denybuild and designate), plus a third squad of the freethinkers, the feeders, the bleeders, the ronin, the leaderless, the first-to-be-kicked.

Blue=Human
Red=Alien

within each team:
Fireteam Gold = Attack Unit, led by Attack Leader
Fireteam Black = The Freebooters, unaligned players, those who will not submit
Fireteam Green = Builders & Defenders (OK, the campers and probationary feeders), led by Base Leader

Anybody the Attack Leader puts on probation, the Base Leader tries to teach to defend, to join a rush group, to teach to build, to show him how to help with moves, and how to leave base without feeding. One dude takes the players who want to rush together out to rush. The other dude takes the n00bs under his wing and tries to move, build and defend. And a bunch of players listen to neither guy.

Oh, when does the initial vote happen? How many votecalls per round? What happens when Anger/Dracone/TinMan/n00b pl0x shows up and I want him to be my leader now? You can substitute clanmate/brother/best friend/superkiller/master builder, but you know what I mean.

Sorry, I meant to keep that brief.

Please make this thing, if you can and will, sir.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

while i was composing an answer-opera, i just realised that i summoned my old friend.

*hugs*

[player1]

Now I'm advocating deviltry.



Let's you and him fight.

[Bissig]

@Player1

Ah, ok.

Red and Blue was just an example.

---

As I have said/argued ingame to Google:

Technical solutions (vote for leader/awards for teamplaying) to social problems (killwhores, no care people, selfish bastards, lack of teamplay) - suck!

[googles]

The squad theory:

I have talked this over with multiple people, and this is a good idea, but it isn't very useful ingame. I see no reason for this to be in the game itself, here is a brief example of how this could go wrong.

I join the red squad
I tell everyone in my squad to rush
We feed
We give aliens S3
Aliens win because we rushed
We fuck over the other squads

:/ Since the game would still have the same initial goal(aliens or humans want to win), there is no need to divide the whole team itself into sub-groups, the ONLY way this could work is if there are squads full of pros that can use teamwork and help each other, here is an example of how this could work and be useful.

Map: atcs

I join squad red
I tell squad red to take the tunnel
I tell squad blue to protect base/base camp/build
I tell squad green to rush the forward entrance of the enemy team.
We win because we used teamwork and strategy

The only thing wrong with that, is very rarely do you get a full team to use teamwork and to listen to each other. Since there are alot of noobs floating around, one feeder could ruin it for the whole team.

Leader theory:

I have also talked about this with multiple people, and I have planned how this would work out. A leader, would have to be chosen by a team-vote, when designated the leader he would get all the previously stated abilities, but he would also have to pay a price for being the leader. This is simply to balance the whole leader perspective. The leader of each team would be 25 percent slower when he is attacking(rifle, mass driver, lucisuit, etc), or your enemy would get double the reward for killing you, as for the building part, he would also have an extended build timer.

These are simply my plans for this, I was planning on making a mod like this, just to see how it shifts balance. Feel free to post your theory on improving teamwork, if i like it, ill probably make a mod out of it.

[player1]

Good luck with it!



I'm not sure you quite understood the nature of the three squads, as I envision them. You would still have leaders, and the attack leader would be in charge of rushing and attack waves. I'm not sure that more admin commands in the hands of popularity contest winners will truly address the feeding vs. camping conundrum, but I wish you well.

Edit: Also, I would not reduce the normal attack abilities of the attack Leader, as he should lead by example, and excel at the skills for which he is justifiably well-known. I would consider giving him a reduced slap to use against foes (25% strength, knockback only, no real damage to enemies), and make his value 1.5 times the normal evos/creds for killing him (he should also have a normal slap to keep his own troopers in line, as well as probation). Again, I would have a separate base Leader, with a reduced build time (say 80% normal), and make his bounty 1.25 times the normal value (as well as the designate and denybuild abilities).

I think you should still include the unaffiliated players on each team as an X factor (a sort of control for your experiment: who actually defeats the other team - the coordinated attack team, under the control of the attack Leader or the rabble-rousing, freebooting, ronin of the team, operating independently?).

Thus: Gold for Attack, Green for Base, and Black for I-Would-Prefer-Not-To-Listen-To-Those-Guys

During Warmup:

Please volunteer to Lead! (Volunteer by pressing f1 now!)

Please vote for one of the following for Leader (vote yes/no for each player in turn by clicking on his name and pressing either f1 or f2):
volunteer1
popularguy23
op/owner egostroke
admin-du-jour

Please volunteer to Build! (Volunteer by pressing f1 now!)

Please vote for one of the following for Builder (vote yes/no for each player in turn by clicking on his name and pressing either f1 or f2):
mypaljoey
volunteer1
unnamed player
op/owner egostroke

Your team has elected popularguy23 as your Leader. (3 yes votes, 1 no vote)

Your team has elected op/owner egostroke as your Builder. (6 yes votes)

Please choose a squad:

Attack (Gold) (press f1)
Base (Green) (press f2)
No affiliation (Black) (no key)

Congratulations! You have joined the Gold Squad! Your job is to Attack! Your Leader is popularguy23. Squad chat shown in red. Prepare to fight!

To change squads press f1; to cycle through squad chat, press f2. Good luck, and play fair!

[professor]

i like that
i also like the idea of having it say something besides"cmon"
cant it say like "get the !@*& out of the way im trying to build there" or "lets charge" or even "cmon idiots lets go"

[doomagent13]

Interesting ideas.

Just a thought I had to help reduce potential abuse:
Have all the procedures be non-automatic.  Meaning someone has to do "/callteamvote attackleader (name?)" to initiate the whole procedure for attack leader.  To go along with this there would be a "/squad" command, or something similar.  You always see all squad chat, but the colors are different for the different squads.  With "/squad" you could join or leave the various squads.

Basically, requiring a teamvote not present in the menus will reduce the number of noobs using it.

[Eeeew Spiders]

with all that voting it will just turn into a virtual Switzerland.

[Bissig]

with all that voting it will just turn into a virtual Switzerland.

Well, Switzerland seems to be doing pretty well... Wealth, no wars, good education and a good image in the world (Quite opposite to some country with much automated stuff).

In other words: I like the callvote idea.

[professor]

im gonna go wit bissig on this one.....
yea i like all the voting...

[player1]

go on a stage and perform!

Check out my blog.

On Topic/@OP: We're still interested in this. Was machst du?