fixing what 'cant' be fixed

[WaxyChicken]

Before reading this, know that i am all around pissed
at how the Tremulos community behaves toward both
experienced players and noobies.  Do not read if you're
easily offended or one of these d|ck players or admins.

__________
Joe: "OMG!  WTF!  YOU TK'D ME!"
Bobby: "Of course I did.  You wouldn't move.  you blocked me."
Joe: "I was going that way you dope!  You were blocking me!"
______
"QUICK!  Build Turrets at the doorway"
"Ok" (starts build)
"But Do Armory First!"
"Too Late"
*bang*  TK
"Next time build the @#$ Armory first!!"
____________
Jack : "Build an egg here so we can get a hive and push them back"
Pete: "OK!"
Clint: "WTH?  You hatched me next to enemy base?"
*Clint calls vote "Deny Pete build rights"*
___________


I'm 36.  I've been gamin since the days of
the VideoPak.  Never in my life have i seen
such a pathetic crowd of TKing, VoteKicking,
all around a$$40|3s in a game.

i swear, most of the players must be 15 year
old boys that are so sexually frustrated they
f*** each other in the game.

And most of the admins aren't much better.

This game will forever be stuck with just a
couple of a dozen servers and only the most
rude, vile, decrepit behavior you'll find if nothing
changes.

Of course, the makers don't cause the problem.
it's purely the players and admins.

but as makers that wish to expand the popularity
of your game you more than likely willing to take
steps to provide for the pleasant gaming experience
that is currently impossible to find in Tremulous.

Obviously you want everyone to have a fun and
pleasant time with your product - after all, you ask
that of them on the forum.

so before you say "we can't fix behavior, we can only
fix the software." here's a route to consider when you
undertake the next version.

1 - every server that authenticates with the master server
shall be added to a list based on internet identity. 
(such as ping, etc....)

2 - either a server complaints forum or master-server-admins.
(the admins make rounds and check out if the server is up to
snuff when it comes to quality of playing experience)

3 - when enough complaints are logged against a server, then
the master server adds them to a temp or perm ban list.

eg:  if 200 people come on to the Server Complaints Forum and
say "the admins on server 123.123.123.123 constantly mute or
kick me for asking simple questions like 'which one is the reactor'."

eventualy server 123.123.123.123 gets added to the master
server ban list. (temp or perm depending on the complaints)

server 123.123.123.123 will no longer show up in the master
server list.  When it attempts to log into the master server as
a public game then the master server will tell it to shut down.

Just warn them with the next update that you're performing
quality control with the servers and that by downloading
they agree to basic good sportsmanship and friendly admin
guidelines.

If people constantly have a bad gaming experience in server X,
and Server X is put on a week long ban, then of course the
admins will clean it up!  Admins always want their server to be
the most popular one.

-The Chicken

PS: consider having it so that any server w/o a password
automatically has FF and voting disabled.

[Survivor]

Dear mr WaxyChicken,

We appreciate your response, but have you at any one point thought about the nature of this game?
a) It is an opensource game resulting in easily avoiding every system you mentioned
b) A part of its community consists of, like you already mentioned, assholes, who would love to have paying servers be unable to be used.

Kind Regards,

Survivor

[WaxyChicken]

You can still mod the master server w/o changing the server source though.  no?
so, theoretically, you could come up with a server ban list for the master server.
if they want to be @#%@#%  then let them.  but deny them admittance onto
the master server list.  no different than banning a player.

[Survivor]

Do you understand that they can just point to an alternate masterserver under their control? And either don't use expletives or don't use @#%@#%. You can swear quite a lot on these boards.

[WaxyChicken]

If i come to the Tremulous website and download a
client, does it not point to your master servers?
or are you utilizing Q3 master servers as a mod?

[Survivor]

By that argument noone would ever have created a mod for tremulous either. Stop discussing with emotions and start with reasoning.

[WaxyChicken]

Perhaps you misunderstand my reasoning.
let me try again:

I submit to you that as long as new players do not enjoy their experience with the Tremulous game, the game's popularity will continue to remain stagnant or to expand at only a slow crawl at best.

I merely wished to provide a conceptual idea of a possible course of  action which could result in a more positive experience for new players and thus improve the growth rate of the Tremulous community and Tremulous's popularity.

Thank you for having reviewed my the proposed idea and taking it under consideration.

[Undeference]

I do think that letting people virtually "complain" about servers and have them temporarily delisted from the master server is an interesting idea, but it would never work.
I gotta say it: play on better servers. Not everyone is an elitist asshole just trying to e-rape newbies. But it does take some persistence to find the other 10%.

PS: by default, friendly fire is entirely disabled.

Survivor: this probably shouldn't be in off topic since it's not exactly

[Snake]

EPICAL FIX FOR THAT PROBLEM:


set g_FriendlyFire 1

!!!!

ANd i'm having a really nice gaming expericne with tremulous, so i dont even care about tks, it just happens, but if someone keeps tking me its time to call the vote...

[Posts]

i think there is too much pessimism here for an idea that hasn't been tried or refined.
edit: yes, the original idea has a problem with it, but i think something similar could have a bright future, for example, instead of an automated system, have a trusted person actually verify the reports, gossip has have no value but to lead to an investigation of something that might be true.

if the standards stated above are too strict, i do think there are certain types of servers that we could all agree should be delisted, for example servers that get setup by the owner and never get touched again, yet have people playing on them with chaos.

i don't understand this fear of an unofficial master server, if people actually use it its because the first server failed hard for a long period of time, or because we actually have a huge population of undesirables, if it happens its deserved.

to my surprise i've seen few annoyances in this mod, there are other games that deserve this solution much more, then again i view this particular game as team deathmatch, i have a hard time getting into the game because i don't really see a fair defeat, mass decon feels a lot like the usual defeat by rambo, etc. one time the whole base blew up and i had no idea what happened, was it the enemy? mass decon? abusive admin plugin?

[Syntac]

This idea has an obvious, glaring, fundamental flaw. If you allow people to disable a server by submitting complaints, someone's going to abuse the system. It's human nature.

no different than banning a player.

I wonder what went through your head when you posted that. It is much, much different. When you ban a player, it's usually because they're an asshole. When you ban a server, you're denying a possibly fun playing experience to many, many non-assholes.

One more thing: Like Survivor said, you can swear a lot here. Don't hesitate to use profanity that is appropriate to your feelings.

Not too bad for a first post. Could've done with more thinking, though.

[David]

The master server *does* have a ban list.
I assume they added it for a reason, so I assume someone is banned.  I'll also assume that someone did more than just a bit of admin abuse.

There are plenty of servers with good admins and strict rules for them.  There are a lot more power-tripping kids.  Play oin good servers.

[Bissig]

Easy fix:

Join servers with a positive community/good admins (Of course, this only works if you are not too lazy to try different servers).

---

And yes, the average tremulous player is around 12-16 years old. So, if you want a "grown up" game, go play a massively online flight sim or a golfing simulation.

[Kaleo]

The world has assholes, and Trem has assholes, probably because it's part of this world. That's not going to change any time soon.

Howabout you go have a cry or just get used to it.

[rotacak]

I think that problem is not only about assholes, but also about bad servers with stupid settings/mods. New player momentally see on top of servers some X and A (?) servers, where is gameplay totally messed up. Really gameplay? No, maybe "gameplay". And what new player can think about this great game when he join in such of server?

But banlist not solving this. Everyone can vote for ban this server, ban that server... One asshole can create 100 accounts and vote "ban this server" for good server.

What about something like server karma?

And on masterlist should be few official tremulous servers without ANY mods with players, good ping and unlagged on and off. Maybe official servers should be always on top of the master list (section "Official tremulous servers" and then section "User servers" or something).
Problem is that server without mods (and patches) is very old and buggy.

[David]

PureTremulous is running "pure" trem without stupid mods, and is more up to date than just about anywhere else.
Just about the only game play altering stuff we have is unlagged.  We also have fair admins.

The players have spoken with there feet and we have very few players.  In the last 24 hours there haven't been any games.
Apparently people prefer 20000dp/s and cheats to real tremulous

[Lava Croft]

@WaxyChicken: I want to note that if you are 36 years old and never ran into a group of complete retards while playing a game online, maybe you should play more games online. Groups of retards trying to ruin the fun for others have been around since online games came into existence, and they will never disappear from the stage either. Hell, from my experience, Quake clans came into existence for the sole purpose of the entire clan joining a server and basically taking over the games being played there, in an attempt to piss people off.

To be quite frank, I think your post does not even come near to reflecting the age you showcase so proudly.
Maybe you should thicken your skin a bit more, or at least just confess that Tremulous is your first online gaming experience, and you were surprised to find out that the retards you come across in real life, also found their way to the internet.

[==Troy==]

freeallegiance.org is a nice example of a moderator monarchy. Exactly the system you ask for tremulous. Although it did create a better community, quite a lot of people would not agree with such system. And with current tremulous setup you are looking forward for a fork if the masterserver list will be restricted.

Its a nice and doable idea, but it gives a lot of power to those who will "look after" the server. Or it is prone to be abused if it is "democracy". And everything is again bound into IDing the player.

[googles]

PureTremulous is running "pure" trem without stupid mods, and is more up to date than just about anywhere else.
Just about the only game play altering stuff we have is unlagged.  We also have fair admins.

The players have spoken with there feet and we have very few players.  In the last 24 hours there haven't been any games.
Apparently people prefer 20000dp/s and cheats to real tremulous

As i recall, PureTremulous is running Lakitu's QVM, therefore is NOT pure tremulous. The original tremulous had some small gameplay differences. (poison system for example?)

[kevlarman]

PureTremulous is running "pure" trem without stupid mods, and is more up to date than just about anywhere else.
Just about the only game play altering stuff we have is unlagged.  We also have fair admins.

The players have spoken with there feet and we have very few players.  In the last 24 hours there haven't been any games.
Apparently people prefer 20000dp/s and cheats to real tremulous

As i recall, PureTremulous is running Lakitu's QVM, therefore is NOT pure tremulous. The original tremulous had some small gameplay differences. (poison system for example?)

those differences are inherited from tjw's code, if you're going to complain about that, you have issues.

[Amanieu]

And if you are going to complain, don't do it in this thread, but on the puretrem forums.

[yetshi]

by all means hit the PT forums with any problems you see on our servers.

if nobody points out a flaw then it cant be fixed.