Author Topic: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive  (Read 54854 times)

David

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2008, 07:11:55 pm »
This looks good: http://www.capponcino.it/tremulous/statsprolinux/mapindex.html

Also is need to say with how many players it is not balanced. Because balancing is different with 1 VS 1, 5 VS 5 or 64 VS 64.

You point out the problem with those stats, they don't show enough.
And: http://tremulous.net/balance
Taken from all servers, although like you say, there ruined by shit server.  However a year or two ago, there were no shit servers, and we still have those stats....  (or at least we can remember them, I assume timbo or whoever still has the raw stats).  So we can use that to show its a bit screwy.
And tremulous is designed for 12-20 (I think) players.  If you want more than that you can't expect it to be balanced.
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player1

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Re: What Trem Needs #3,997 in a series
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2008, 10:11:47 pm »
The majority of trem players that I started playing with... just quit online gaming all together.

It's called: turning 14.



Lava Croft

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2008, 04:39:58 am »
The majority of trem players that I started playing with... just quit online gaming all together.
It's called: turning 14
So, when you started that thread about how you were going to leave Tremulous, you just turned 14 years old?

sticks

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2008, 04:56:22 am »
Well, I don't know who your addressing but I never said I was leaving Tremulous, on the other hand I would say, shit I wish I was fourteen again, then I wouldn't have any problems having you as my role model Lava  ;)

Lava Croft

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2008, 05:11:52 am »
Look who I quoted...

rotacak

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2008, 12:11:22 pm »
This looks good: http://www.capponcino.it/tremulous/statsprolinux/mapindex.html

Also is need to say with how many players it is not balanced. Because balancing is different with 1 VS 1, 5 VS 5 or 64 VS 64.

You point out the problem with those stats, they don't show enough.
And: http://tremulous.net/balance
Taken from all servers, although like you say, there ruined by shit server.  However a year or two ago, there were no shit servers, and we still have those stats....  (or at least we can remember them, I assume timbo or whoever still has the raw stats).  So we can use that to show its a bit screwy.
And tremulous is designed for 12-20 (I think) players.  If you want more than that you can't expect it to be balanced.

12 - 20 players is good. But allowing adv goon in S2 will be more hard for aliens?

Luigi1

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2008, 02:47:42 pm »
Im turing 16 soon and tremulous is still fun. I also have lots of friends on trem that are 18+... so obviously age isnt an issue.

player1

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Re: What Logic Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2008, 06:49:14 pm »
The OP opined that Tremulous must change because his friends no longer play video games, or play this particular video game.

I seek merely to point out the flaw in such "logic".

A so very clearly does not equal B, that the most amusing thing about this thread is how long it has lasted, just on sheer, I-still-love-this-game-please-don't-fail-my-faith-oh-mighty-unseen-Trem-gods.

or, as n00b pl0x would say: this thread is full of can't wait

Tremulous development continues apace. That pace just happens to be a cautious tread. Do what everyone else does. Check back in a month or three, or go to the dev server and be on the crest of the wave of change. It basically boils down to wait for it, sod off for a bit or roll up your sleeves and pitch in. Please pick one and enjoy your choice.

Oh Mighty Trem Devs Grant Us Eternal Patience!

sticks

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2008, 08:33:19 pm »
Unfortunately my patience doesn't last that long   :)

player1

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Re: What My Patience Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2008, 08:51:13 pm »
Pitch in and help! Edit code today! Rush }MG{ as a new pledge! Make a wiki for n00bs! Start your own server! Join a clan! If you can't change Trem, change your attitude about Trem. Apply for admin status at your favorite server! Mod your Trem w/ VoiP and music player and HUDs and maps and mods and shiny and/or cel-shaded visual effects! Or you could just play some other game for a while...

brought to you by people with only slightly more patience

sticks

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2008, 11:04:36 pm »
Well that's the problem, done nearly all of that stuff (with exception to coding, java is rather useless for trem), and I still love trem so I dunno, maybe we just need to get some advertisements for trem  :police:

KamikOzzy

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2008, 01:00:59 am »
What none of your stats accurately show is the effects of Sudden Death. The AA server (only skilled and populated American server left) stat page has aliens winning 59% of the time, but the vast majority of the time, the win is shortly after sudden death. Aliens seem to have a much harder time winning pre-SD than the humans do because rets can stop rants, but no alien buildable stops a (smart) lucy, which conveniently can 1-shot an egg from any distance. Take away those rets, though, and game over.

tl;dr version: The game as a whole is pretty balanced, with perhaps rants being a tad strong, but SD is not... and an alternative would be nice.
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sticks

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2008, 01:15:04 am »
I think the rants strength makes it a lot more fun, there's not a whole lot to celebrate when you down a dretch, but as soon as you get that rant down by yourself you have some bragging rights  :tyrant:

KamikOzzy

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2008, 03:31:23 am »
I agree, I also like it. When you're an alien you can play the role of complete ownage, and as humans the role of underdog fighting forces stronger than yourself.

Besides, shotty-dance can take down half the rants anyway.
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Nux

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2008, 05:44:50 pm »
Accepting imbalance is something long term players of an unbalanced game are likely to do. Wouldn't you have adjusted just as easily (maybe more so) to a more balanced game? I'd say so. Whether the game would be as interesting; Whether you could truly balance a game with such differing sides and whether players would be willing to re-adapt when they love tremulous as it is... I can't be sure just yet.

Personally, I'm fully in favour of attempting to improve balance. Just don't think a game is better simply because your stats are more even.

David

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2008, 07:09:01 pm »
A game should be fun.
Campers 24/7 isn't fun.  Say what you want about "only playing with good players", but I prefer to fix problems rather than bury my head in the sand.
The new system reduces camping a lot, from both sides.
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.

KamikOzzy

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2008, 08:07:18 pm »
New system? You mean MGDev? Usually when that's tested with more than a couple players, the players that do show up are moderately skilled players who wouldn't camp anyway, imbalance or not. I play tremulous every day with a constantly aggressive style on both sides of the playing field. As a rant I try and get 5 kills (or equivalent) and then attack the rets. As a human I'm constantly shotgunning goons and rants until I can afford lucy, at which point I rush the eggs. As I maintain a high win rate, aliens OR humans, I conclude that camping is not forced upon us but merely adopted as a strategy by lesser players.

Here is where we split, and Nux's post somewhat foreshadowed it: Do you cater to the new or to the old?

If you want to make the game better for the casual gamers or first-timers, you weaken the value of experience.

Yes, I have long accepted the slight imbalances, but without them it wouldn't be as fun for me. So you can decide whether to piss off new players with imbalance or piss off old players with changes to the game we love already. I value what we have now more than what we may acquire in the future because I just don't think we're going to see much of an increase in new players even if the game is more balanced, but it may bring a decrease in veterans if our favorite classes are altered.

edited to sound less boastful, I just want to point out that either team can win, and the average human needs to stop sucking.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 08:13:07 pm by KamikOzzy »
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Harry Pothead

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2008, 11:12:40 pm »
Yea.

Also, new players are almost always either players who come from other FPS games or players who have accepted the idea that, in an FPS game, you are a guy with a gun. Tremulous is different. I remember that, as a complete n00b, I'd prefer playing humans because playing aliens was awkward and frustrating. This is, I think, true for most who are not at least moderately skilled in Trem. If you look at a typical public game in Trem today, people tend to prefer humans. This seems to make no sense since 1)aliens win most rounds, 2)winning is a big bulk of the fun, and 3)people play to have fun.

So there is some factor making people want to play humans rather than aliens. This factor should be (and is) counteracted by the high win rate of aliens. Having a balanced 50/50 win ratio between humans and aliens will (I predict) elevate the current preference for humans. Of course, as Ozzy said, you wont see this in MGDev every Saturday because experienced players often have small-to-nonexistent team preferences. It's more important to have even teams than to have equal advantage for each team.

The reason team balance is so important in other FPS games is because the teams are either identical or pretty damned near identical (e.g. same weapons and such). In the case of slightly different teams, one team might have a 12-round, 40 damage per hit, low firing rate pistol while the other team has a 20-round, 20 damage per hit, high firing rate pistol that's a bit more accurate. They're both pistols, and they are both used in fundamentally the same way. In Trem, however, you have two teams with the same objectives, but extremely different ways of carrying out those objectives. Why shouldn't they each have a different likelyhood of completing those objectives? Aliens is fun because it's easier to pwn with. Humans is fun because when you turn that corner, you know you are at a disadvantage to that goon. You are in a struggle to survive. You are nervous or afraid because that dretch knows exactly where you are, but you have no clue where it is. That's all Trem really needs.

cactusfrog

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2008, 08:40:34 am »
I believe that tremulous is dieing not because good people are leaving but because no one new is coming in because Its unfriendly with newbies. when you first download the game everything is to dark mouse sensitivity is to low no GUID wall walk set to speed slow and its difficult to find how to sell your rifle. There is no interactive tutorials like many new games making the game even harder to learn. Not to mention all the servers are messed X,A,AA,FUN,TremX,etc. all have mods or messed qvms. the only normal server in existence are the 1.1 servers and dretchstorm. Basically when people first download the game they have a 15 precent chance of acually liking it.
newbie#1: can't find it becasue there is no shortcut that is created on there desktop so they get confused and give up.
NEWBIE#2 is smart enough to look in all programs they start up the game and join a random server. to bad for him he joins a team and realizes that they cant see anything they look for the brightness but change the resolution settings instead and crash there tremulous for good. they try reinstalling but to no avail.
NEWBIE#4 He finds the lighting settings now ends up getting killed every time he exits his base by a basi that is 10 feet away from him. This pisses him off so much that he stopps playing the game for good. this is all due to X's screwed up QVM
NEWBIE #5 another newbie starts playing he getts lighting right and joins dretchstorm and starts to play. UNfortually he can't turn around fast enough because mouse sensitivity is to low and when he finally kills something he can only buy armor because he cant find how to sell his weapon. SIck of fighting he tried building but decons the reactor for extra bp and ends up being banned from the only normal server.
 
NEWBIE#6 bypasses all the flaws and happens to be the 1 out of 6 who can enjoy tremulous

gimhael

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2008, 12:02:35 pm »
When I started to play tremulous less than I year ago I had pretty much the same problems (I installed the .deb on Ubuntu, so I got the icon), plus the thing that the server list is initially empty (you have to change LAN->Internet, maybe that should have been Newbie#3's problem ?).

When you finally manage to enter a server that happens to be not empty, you're usually facing some players that can kill you faster than you see them and then your teammates start yelling at you to stop feeding the enemy or even kickvote you. But after a few months of pure frustration tremulous is actually quite addictive.

KamikOzzy

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2008, 02:13:44 pm »
I agree with you, there are some default things that just don't make sense. By the way:

You listed AA as a server with a messed qvm, but it has default rules, damages, etc.

You mentioned DS as a normal server but it has a bouncing snipe mod and I'm pretty sure they still have some wild sudden death system.
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Amanieu

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2008, 02:42:17 pm »
TremX isn't messed, it's a mod. It's supposed to be different from normal trem.
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KamikOzzy

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2008, 03:04:04 pm »
Technically then they're all valid, with TremX I think being the only one that isn't 1.1 compatible. While these servers may make it more difficult to find "normal" games, half the allure of Tremulous is the ability for Joe the Plumber to be able to get a mod of it running and available. I think the benefits outweigh the costs.

//People should probably give their mod a game name, however.
//These slashes are gay, I don't know how Steely uses them.
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Paradox

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2008, 01:44:48 am »
Axe X and its little disciples, Trem will recover.

∧OMG ENTROPY∧

SlackerLinux

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2008, 02:54:07 am »
Axe X and its little disciples, Trem will recover.

trem will still die w/out x and the rest of those joke of a gameservers. its just instead of a fast death we will go back to the slow death. what we really need is 1.2 to be released fixing all the issues with 1.1.
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googles

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2008, 03:49:53 am »
Which reminds me, when the fuck if 1.2 being released? It couldn't take this long to release a few balance changes and code fixes -_-

mooseberry

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2008, 03:54:54 am »
Well I know but I'm not allowed to tell you. All I can say is that it won't be released before last year. That and it's coming out on Thursday. But it will be Wednesday in Germany.
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googles

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2008, 03:59:07 am »
Or are we just waiting for the modelers... :\ Can has faster modelers?

Rocinante

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #58 on: November 13, 2008, 10:41:29 pm »
There.. think I took out the garbage, and halved the size of this thread.  Keep it clean folks...
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Roanoke

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Re: What Trem Needs To Stay Alive
« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2008, 11:33:36 pm »
Not to mention all the servers are messed X,A,AA,FUN,TremX,etc. all have mods or messed qvms. the only normal server in existence are the 1.1 servers and dretchstorm.
Not true. The skittles server is only one you missed. There are plenty of pure servers, but unfortunately too many modded ones.