Feedback testing: Third-Person Spectating

[Lakitu7]

Hi folks, it's time for me to use this forum for the first time.

If you've been hanging around mgdev or related IRC channels, you may be aware that I've been hard at work recently to bring Tremulous more-interactive spectator modes. Many people who play the game frequently (and in particular, competitively) spend a lot of time spectating. Spectating is also the best way for new players to learn how to play well. Thus, why not make spectating more fun and exciting?

To that end, I have created and enhanced several new spectator modes. They are being tested on mgdev right now for you to play with. When I finish tweaking the feature as per receieved feedback and finish cleaning up the code, this feature will be put to svn/trunk for everyone to enjoy in 1.2. Don't forget that mgdev also has deadspec, so you can try it out while you're waiting to spawn, too (by the way, deadspec + stickyspec are going into trunk too; it's just taking a while because they're a big pain in the butt ).

Specifically, we now have two different modes of mouse-controlled third person spectating available. You know the bind that switches from free-flying spec mode to follow spec mode? Press that a third time to find yourself in third-person view. Now, you can use the mouse to rotate a camera around the player you're following and look around. You may have seen this in some other FPS games, but now it's in Trem too. Cool, eh? Beats just passively watching, I say... BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!

In my testing, I came to the conclusion that spectating someone who's wallwalking in third person is a big jerky mess (and has to be like that, really), so I came up with an alternate camera mode for that situation: third-person shoulder view. While I only made it for wallwalkers, it turns out that I also think that view is pretty cool, so I fleshed it out some. In this view, imagine that your camera is stuck to a big pointy stick lodged into the back of the guy you're following. It moves with them, but you can still rotate it and look around using the mouse. By default, shoulder-view is accessed when you are spectating in third person (see above) and that person starts to wallwalk. You can use cg_thirdPersonShoulderViewMode to change this . Set that cvar to 0 if you'd prefer to never switch to shoulder mode automatically. Set it to 2 if you'd prefer to use shoulder-view in place of regular third-person all the time.

But what can *I* do to improve this feature?
Well, I'm so glad you (didn't) ask! This implementation has some extra cvars put in that allow you to determine a few minor bits of the system that we haven't quite decided on. Ultimately, they aren't planned to stay user-configurable, but for now, the feedback helps me determine what to keep.

cg_thirdPersonPitchFollow (default 0): Set this to 1 if you want your camera to move up/down with the aim of the person you're following (you move left/right with them regardless). On one hand, with this off, moving your camera around is much more natural and the view jerks around much less. On the other hand, with it on, you can more easily see where they are aiming. Which mode should stay? I like 0. Kevlarman likes 1. Try it out and tell us what to keep. ^{actually this is broken right now. hold off on that please}

cg_shoulderViewOverride (default 0): Setting this cvar to 1 activates the following cvars: cg_shoulderViewUp cg_shoulderViewRight cg_shoulderViewForward. By doing so, the game ignores the position offsets (from the character's regular first-person view position) that I designed and uses those three cvars instead. Do you think the view is crappy when using shoulder-view from class X? Turn on Override and mess with different locations. Then post here some triplets of (up, right, down) you think are better for each class. We'll try them out and decide, with your feedback.

_{* Note: No, there are not currently any plans to make either form of third-person mode available while playing. Please do not make this thread about that. This thread is for feedback on these modes while spectating only.}

[Death On Ice]

Very cool, I've been wondering why this wasn't implemented before, since spectators can just hover behind targets anyways. Perhaps spectators could be allowed to move through walls as well?

[Lakitu7]

Perhaps spectators could be allowed to move through walls as well?

http://svn.icculus.org/tremulous?view=rev&revision=1137

Thank Ben yesterday MGDev has been updated to include it as well.

[Bissig]

Cvar or option to reverse the controls on third-person specs please. I find them contraintuitive at current.

[Lakitu7]

They've gone back and forth a couple times, so please see how they are now before you tell me.

Unfortunately it seems like however I set things, someone tells me it's backwards, so I don't really know wtf. Ultimately it's 4 things:
thirdperson pitch
thirdperson yaw
shoulder pitch
shoulder yaw

Please specify which you're talking about and think should be reversed. I do want everyone to give feedback on this so we can come to some consensus though, because ultimately I do not want to create 4 different cvars for it.

[Lakitu7]

Also, I've noticed that cg_thirdPersonPitchFollow is a bit broken and is having a tendency to continue to break you even once it's been turned off (resets when you restart). I'm aware of this and will fix it soon, so just don't use it for now and I'll reply here when it's been fixed and should be tested again.

[Bissig]

Moving around on a plane around the center of the human looking him into the face. I just want a way to reverse it when I don't like it. Like inverted mouse... Some like it, some don't.

[techhead]

Could we make right-click toggle the shoulder-view when following someone in third person?

[David]

How about you extend the team configs to include one for spec that runs when you die etc, and then run the team ones again when you spawn.  or something.

[Hendrich]

Nice work Lakitu7, I'll be sure to test the new feature on MGDev sometime later and comment on our hard work. Goodluck with v1.2.

[tuple]

I really really like this feature.  I hadn't known about the extra cvars, I give them a shot.  Just the default shoulder/follow view is pretty neat though.

[Lakitu7]

Thanks Tuples. I look forward to the feedback.

I wrote up some fixes for the known bugs (messed up dead camera, messed up pitch when pitch follow is enabled) tonight. I'll test them out tomorrow and then hopefully merge so we can get feedback on pitch follow.

[jake]

Looks like you have done quite a bit of work and it sounds pretty impressive, do i need to dl a new qvm for this?

I may be asking a bit but is it possible to make like a movie spec view where it has preset points on the map and you just jump between them? I'm really only just wondering if this is possible... I have looked at qvms before but have no idea how to change things as i dont understand computer code (reading stuff to help learn)

[tuple]

That I know of, the only place to see this at this time is one one of the MGDev servers.  Make sure you have auto-download enabled and your client will get the pk3 (which contains the qvms in question) and run it.

[cactusfrog]

its stupid that i have to remeber all these comands to change how i am viewing stuff as a spectator. You should make it so as a spectator your press v or something to change the way you are viewing the spectator insted of typing in console some wierd command

[Kaleo]

I may be asking a bit but is it possible to make like a movie spec view where it has preset points on the map and you just jump between them? I'm really only just wondering if this is possible... I have looked at qvms before but have no idea how to change things as i dont understand computer code (reading stuff to help learn)

That would have to be done at the mapping stage as well. It would require multiple info_player_intermission entities.

I think this would require some engine level coding as well.

[Urcscumug]

@cactus, it will happen automagically when it's done. The commands are just for testing, so people can fine-tune this and report back.

[Evoc]

@cactus, it will happen automagically when it's done. The commands are just for testing, so people can fine-tune this and report back.

Automagically? Hmm, you've been yellow'd.

[Amanieu]

Bug report: When you're speccing someone and you click mouse3, you go into 3rd person spec mode. When you click again, you immediately go back to follow mode, but then when the server receives your click, you switch back out to normal spectating. This is only noticeable at high pings.

[snb]

Hi folks, it's time for me to use this forum for the first time.

If you've been hanging around mgdev or related IRC channels, you may be aware that I've been hard at work recently to bring Tremulous more-interactive spectator modes. Many people who play the game frequently (and in particular, competitively) spend a lot of time spectating. Spectating is also the best way for new players to learn how to play well. Thus, why not make spectating more fun and exciting?

To that end, I have created and enhanced several new spectator modes. They are being tested on mgdev right now for you to play with. When I finish tweaking the feature as per receieved feedback and finish cleaning up the code, this feature will be put to svn/trunk for everyone to enjoy in 1.2. Don't forget that mgdev also has deadspec, so you can try it out while you're waiting to spawn, too (by the way, deadspec + stickyspec are going into trunk too; it's just taking a while because they're a big pain in the butt ).

Specifically, we now have two different modes of mouse-controlled third person spectating available. You know the bind that switches from free-flying spec mode to follow spec mode? Press that a third time to find yourself in third-person view. Now, you can use the mouse to rotate a camera around the player you're following and look around. You may have seen this in some other FPS games, but now it's in Trem too. Cool, eh? Beats just passively watching, I say... BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!

In my testing, I came to the conclusion that spectating someone who's wallwalking in third person is a big jerky mess (and has to be like that, really), so I came up with an alternate camera mode for that situation: third-person shoulder view. While I only made it for wallwalkers, it turns out that I also think that view is pretty cool, so I fleshed it out some. In this view, imagine that your camera is stuck to a big pointy stick lodged into the back of the guy you're following. It moves with them, but you can still rotate it and look around using the mouse. By default, shoulder-view is accessed when you are spectating in third person (see above) and that person starts to wallwalk. You can use cg_thirdPersonShoulderViewMode to change this . Set that cvar to 0 if you'd prefer to never switch to shoulder mode automatically. Set it to 2 if you'd prefer to use shoulder-view in place of regular third-person all the time.

But what can *I* do to improve this feature?
Well, I'm so glad you (didn't) ask! This implementation has some extra cvars put in that allow you to determine a few minor bits of the system that we haven't quite decided on. Ultimately, they aren't planned to stay user-configurable, but for now, the feedback helps me determine what to keep.

cg_thirdPersonPitchFollow (default 0): Set this to 1 if you want your camera to move up/down with the aim of the person you're following (you move left/right with them regardless). On one hand, with this off, moving your camera around is much more natural and the view jerks around much less. On the other hand, with it on, you can more easily see where they are aiming. Which mode should stay? I like 0. Kevlarman likes 1. Try it out and tell us what to keep. ^{actually this is broken right now. hold off on that please}

cg_shoulderViewOverride (default 0): Setting this cvar to 1 activates the following cvars: cg_shoulderViewUp cg_shoulderViewRight cg_shoulderViewForward. By doing so, the game ignores the position offsets (from the character's regular first-person view position) that I designed and uses those three cvars instead. Do you think the view is crappy when using shoulder-view from class X? Turn on Override and mess with different locations. Then post here some triplets of (up, right, down) you think are better for each class. We'll try them out and decide, with your feedback.

_{* Note: No, there are not currently any plans to make either form of third-person mode available while playing. Please do not make this thread about that. This thread is for feedback on these modes while spectating only.}

YES! Finally a annoying spectator class that makes a bunch of sounds!!!