Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: ==Troy== on October 20, 2009, 11:51:56 am
-
I would like to address this feature which as I have heard is in svn and probably will be released with 1.2.
In short : The "Official" tremulous servers (with 1.2 gameplay) will be by default placed on the top of the list, and get a star next to them. The remainder of the servers will be placed based on ping/players (do not remember which exactly atm).
I am interested in the opinion of the server administrators.
The obvious positive part about this is that the newbies are not going to end up on X-like server to start with and think that it is what "tremulous" is.
On the other hand, the servers that are popular should deserve to be at the top of the list, or arranged alphabetically. This attempt to highlight development servers also seems like a dev's attempt at forcing the players to play the 1.2, and fear that most of the popular servers will remain 1.1
I personally do not host a server at the moment, so I do not mind this either way, but what is the exact reasoning for this feature?
Edit : MS has made something similar with Windows Vista - removing WinXP from market completely. (I am aware that the assosiation is not perfect, but very similar)
-
Problem: Practically every server out there is 'modified' in some way or another
Problem: I want Tremulous to be more mod friendly (http://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3818)
Problem: Tremulous developers created a game, and would like to see newbies playing that game.
Problem: During the beta release we need to ensure we are getting full data from populated development servers to help us create the best 1.2 possible.
Problem: I would like to feature one or two mod servers for the general population per month, so users can see the breadth of what's out there
Problem: There are too many 'crappy' servers out there that newbies first join and get discouraged from Tremulous after playing there
Problem: There are too few newbie-friendly servers
Problem: cat maprotation.cfg: ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS
Solution: Featured Servers.
The Tremulous Development Team will run a couple of official servers, plus we will have 1-2 other featured servers that will be by default sorted to the top of the server browser for the beta. There has been no decision if this will remain in final 1.2, and that's mostly cause we don't know how well it'll work, etc. The rest of the servers in the browser will default sort by ping. Part of my deal in making Tremulous imminently more mod friendly is that I want to have a place I can point to that is stock Trem done correctly - this helps in support ("Have you tried it on the official server?"), bug finding, bug squishing, and testing updates that may have an adverse affect on all servers.
Someone even mentioned selling the featured slot for X amount of money to help us raise funds (I want to hire some voice talent for the vsays, and other good things the money could be used for) which could be a nifty idea....
The above listed problems really only touch what all I think this solution solves, but I would love to get your guys input - beyond the 'ZOMG MY SERVER WILL BE THREE SLOTS LOWER!!!one'
-
I support featured servers. I could never stand X, Skittles, UBP, or A.
This is rather off-topic, but can I be that voice talent? I'm quite good and I can do it for free.
-
How is server with stock 1.2 and default maprotation (read - indifferent from the "official server) any different from the official server? So basically this is discouraging anyone to host the default settings, because there are already default servers which will serve the same purpose?
Tbh, personally I find this just having several logical issues (such as stated above). But think that the best option would be for the server to have the star or badge, but to be sorted by ping by default.
Actually, I will go through the problems which you have stated :
Practically every server out there is 'modified' in some way or another <<< Having official server prioritised discourages people to make stock gameplay servers.
I want Tremulous to be more mod friendly <<< Highlighting the official servers reduced the player flow into the modded servers.
Tremulous developers created a game, and would like to see newbies playing that game. <<< Fair enough, could you guarantee that the dev servers will not be deserted, or admin-less with every second player being a griefer?
During the beta release we need to ensure we are getting full data from populated development servers to help us create the best 1.2 possible. <<< I do not mind beta releases, as long as it is not public beta. (i.e. == public release)
I would like to feature one or two mod servers for the general population per month, so users can see the breadth of what's out there <<< On what basis? Can you guarantee it being unbiased?
There are too many 'crappy' servers out there that newbies first join and get discouraged from Tremulous after playing there <<< How would you define "crappy"? What sort of newbies? I like blueberries, my finance hates them.
There are too few newbie-friendly servers <<< 1.2 is anything but newbie-friendly. Better have some training maps before letting people out into the wild. Then the 1.2 official servers will make sence
cat maprotation.cfg: ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS <<< cat maprotation.cfg DEFAULT MAPS DEFAULT MAPS DEFAULT MAPS DEFAULT MAPS ( DEV-SELECTED MAPS DEV-SELECTED MAPS DEV-SELECTED MAPS)
Solution does not really apply.
On the other hand, having the server to be featured on top because of the (set >= XXX$) donation is fair and productive. Devs will benefit more from having featured-only servers at top than having official servers as well as featured one's.
At least this is my point of view on the subject.
Problem is there, but the solution breaks more things than fixes.
-
my issue is i dont want "official" 400 ping servers on the top of my server list. featured servers is fine but don't force them on top of the list add a tick to them instead or something visible so people know they are different. anyway because trem is opensource anyone can remove that so called feature anyway(if its not turnoff-able and those 400 ping servers are on top of my list ill be definitely removing them)
-
Practically every server out there is 'modified' in some way or another <<< Having official server prioritised discourages people to make stock gameplay servers.
This does not make sense to me
I want Tremulous to be more mod friendly <<< Highlighting the official servers reduced the player flow into the modded servers.
See three points down, and also I don't see how?
Tremulous developers created a game, and would like to see newbies playing that game. <<< Fair enough, could you guarantee that the dev servers will not be deserted, or admin-less with every second player being a griefer?
We will do our best, and that's about all we can do or promise :)
During the beta release we need to ensure we are getting full data from populated development servers to help us create the best 1.2 possible. <<< I do not mind beta releases, as long as it is not public beta. (i.e. == public release)
Yes, it's a public BETA. it does not == public release.
I would like to feature one or two mod servers for the general population per month, so users can see the breadth of what's out there <<< On what basis? Can you guarantee it being unbiased?
I do not understand who you are mistrusting here
There are too many 'crappy' servers out there that newbies first join and get discouraged from Tremulous after playing there <<< How would you define "crappy"? What sort of newbies? I like blueberries, my finance hates them.
I'll admit this is vauge and address it later.
There are too few newbie-friendly servers <<< 1.2 is anything but newbie-friendly. Better have some training maps before letting people out into the wild. Then the 1.2 official servers will make sence
Thank you for your opinion.
cat maprotation.cfg: ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS <<< cat maprotation.cfg DEFAULT MAPS DEFAULT MAPS DEFAULT MAPS DEFAULT MAPS ( DEV-SELECTED MAPS DEV-SELECTED MAPS DEV-SELECTED MAPS)
Please make a point. Yes, the developers will be selecting maps. And?
Thanks for your input!
-
(I want to hire some voice talent for the vsays, and other good things the money could be used for)
I support this.
-
(I want to hire some voice talent for the vsays, and other good things the money could be used for)
I support this.
When did the rest of the world lose their voices?
-
Practically every server out there is 'modified' in some way or another <<< Having official server prioritised discourages people to make stock gameplay servers.
This does not make sense to me
Having a server with default settings makes it no different from the official server. Players already have official server to play on. Which is at the top of the list. Hence a server which is the same as official server by default has lower chances to gain the same popularity as the official server. The only chance to do so is to get something that official server doesnt have.
I want Tremulous to be more mod friendly <<< Highlighting the official servers reduced the player flow into the modded servers.
See three points down, and also I don't see how?
Any traffic which is going into official servers is not going to go into mod servers. Highlighting official servers will reduce the flow of newbies into mods. (simply said - every player who clicked on official server just because it first is lost from a mod server who could have had better ping/number of players/ any other criteria)
Tremulous developers created a game, and would like to see newbies playing that game. <<< Fair enough, could you guarantee that the dev servers will not be deserted, or admin-less with every second player being a griefer?
We will do our best, and that's about all we can do or promise :)
1.2 was always promised to be done soon. Noone can promise that it will last forever, as well as promising that there will be 1.3. Once the dev servers will go deserted, or infested with griefers, the first impression of the newbie player will not be how great the 1.2 is, but how poor the servers are.
During the beta release we need to ensure we are getting full data from populated development servers to help us create the best 1.2 possible. <<< I do not mind beta releases, as long as it is not public beta. (i.e. == public release)
Yes, it's a public BETA. it does not == public release.
There is little difference for a player between public beta and public release besides the name and vague statement that there could be bugs. This is not a paid game. (where the main difference is that one is free and the other one is not)
I would like to feature one or two mod servers for the general population per month, so users can see the breadth of what's out there <<< On what basis? Can you guarantee it being unbiased?
I do not understand who you are mistrusting here
X server is as modded as any other server could be. From your conversations in IRC I assume that it is not going to be featured for the reason that it is "insane" (or similar). My assumption could easily be wrong, but yet again, I do not know the basis on which they will be chosen.
There are too many 'crappy' servers out there that newbies first join and get discouraged from Tremulous after playing there <<< How would you define "crappy"? What sort of newbies? I like blueberries, my finance hates them.
I'll admit this is vauge and address it later.
And this statement about "crappy" servers makes the point above even stronger (about how biased the decisions will be) I better have a clear explanation now, than read 5 threads about why one of the servers was not featured.
There are too few newbie-friendly servers <<< 1.2 is anything but newbie-friendly. Better have some training maps before letting people out into the wild. Then the 1.2 official servers will make sence
Thank you for your opinion.
All above statements are my opinions. Dev servers are not newbie friendly, because tremulous is not newbie friendly, which is addressed in several dozens of threads.
cat maprotation.cfg: ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS <<< cat maprotation.cfg DEFAULT MAPS DEFAULT MAPS DEFAULT MAPS DEFAULT MAPS ( DEV-SELECTED MAPS DEV-SELECTED MAPS DEV-SELECTED MAPS)
Please make a point. Yes, the developers will be selecting maps. And?
Problem is the same as above. (about the featured servers).
The case about mistrust is not in that I do not like what devs advert me to play (i.e. always-on-top servers) but is in the fact that developers here start to choose what they think is suitable for the players to play. I really do not understand that. Nowadays everyone plays on X server. what is so big deal about it? People like it, thats the whole point. People are satisfied with what they get on the X server, and they have ALL of the freedom to go to a different one if they start to dislike the situation. (I am personally indifferent to X server)
Another case, as you did clarify to me, is that the player cannot remove the dev servers from the top of the list, even if he sorts by a different criteria. (and assuming person is not aware of the tremfusion alternative or a way to re-compile the client). Which is going to prove to be an annoyance to the player. At least SOME option to disable it will do a great difference in the approach that devs take.
Edit : or a CLEAR indication of a modified server, and what mod it runs would at least show the player that the other servers are different. (i.e. a sorting by mod as other games have)
-
Practically every server out there is 'modified' in some way or another <<< Having official server prioritised discourages people to make stock gameplay servers.
What?
I ran stock servers when there were lots of them. Having others appear ahead of me in the list never discouraged me or many many others for that matter.
I want Tremulous to be more mod friendly <<< Highlighting the official servers reduced the player flow into the modded servers.
How? By not fooling people into thinking its not a mod (which is frankly the case now for some of them.) Mods getting featured status to build up their player base I would think would be extremely beneficial to them, if we were to include the "featured" server aspects into the equation.
Tremulous developers created a game, and would like to see newbies playing that game. <<< Fair enough, could you guarantee that the dev servers will not be deserted, or admin-less with every second player being a griefer?
Lots of admins of varying authority, protect regulars and take down servers that continually remain empty. Perhaps allow others to run "official" servers as needed/wanted/warranted.
During the beta release we need to ensure we are getting full data from populated development servers to help us create the best 1.2 possible. <<< I do not mind beta releases, as long as it is not public beta. (i.e. == public release)
If its ultimately beneficial, I don't see why it shouldn't go into final. If its demonstrably bad, it shouldn't. I can think of many ways it could be beneficial, and mostly selfish reasons why it wouldn't be, and thats not enough for me to argue to stop it.
I would like to feature one or two mod servers for the general population per month, so users can see the breadth of what's out there <<< On what basis? Can you guarantee it being unbiased?
I think this is a good idea in that you can make requirements of mods, IE don't use base, make your own directory(don't use another mods "base" directory), don't mess up peoples installs, etc, while putting a mod which even now may be buried in the server list a chance to get lots of traffic and work towards maintaining a player base. Also, servers that modify the game and are technically a mod (can you say esd) would not be eligible as they don't qualify if they use "base". I really don't think these are the rules, I've just made them up. But there are reasonable ways of doing this that would very much benefit mods a great deal. I could also see featuring an all beta maps/non standard maps server, great way to promote mappers and their work.
I also think that a shitty mod that amounts to all 6000 HP tyrants against all 6000 HP lucysuits or some other dumb idea being shot down. Of course, making that without nodes... hmm, that could be fun. Endless melee till you're dead, hmm. This may be a better example. I make mara able to jump 27 times higher than it does now, and make absolutely no other changes, should I have a "featured" mod?
Granted, its ambiguous. A well thought out mod in which a lot of work has gone into it should get featured status. Me modifying tremulous.h to make dretches and blasters cause 27000000000 dps shouldn't. Where does the difference lay? Can't really define where that line could be considering the endless modding possibilities. It would have to be played by ear. Still I think its worth doing. Mods with a lot of work on them would get a needed and frankly much much deserved boost in players and advertising. Seems to me like the good far outweighs the potential bad
There are too many 'crappy' servers out there that newbies first join and get discouraged from Tremulous after playing there <<< How would you define "crappy"? What sort of newbies? I like blueberries, my finance hates them.
I started a server expressly because of this, to just run the base because finding a server without esd or some such became impossible for a while. The ones I could find were full of griefing admins, which is much much worse. Lets face it, even I could make all sorts of changes and, using present techniques get it populated, it would be a crappy server, I make no bones about it.
There are too few newbie-friendly servers <<< 1.2 is anything but newbie-friendly. Better have some training maps before letting people out into the wild. Then the 1.2 official servers will make sence
/callvote ban Unnamed Player NOOOOOOB!
Seen it too many times. Used to kick people for doing it on my servers. Votekick before talk is a horrible way to introduce new players to the game. If they won't listen, thats one thing, but kicking someone who's feeding because they're not camping the second match they've ever played is just shitty.
cat maprotation.cfg: ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS ATCS <<< cat maprotation.cfg DEFAULT MAPS DEFAULT MAPS DEFAULT MAPS DEFAULT MAPS ( DEV-SELECTED MAPS DEV-SELECTED MAPS DEV-SELECTED MAPS)
And? Featured beta map servers, lobbying devs to get a particularly good map added to the official rotation, which would be possible with downloads as a realistic option. With downloads a possibility it looks to me like trem will be much more organic "officially" or at least have much more organic possibilities.
I might have a problem if there are 10 "official" servers gobbling up the visible list, but if they're are a couple?
Overall, you seem to be saying that "Official Servers" will discourage mods, beta maps and standard servers. How you think 2-3 servers (my guess) would do this is beyond me. Setting a mod/beta map server as a featured server would promote it more to new players instead of making it something new players need to stumble on. Personally, I think the present free-for-all promotes brand dilution which is why people join standard servers and scream about there not being esd, etc.
OK, BACK TO WORK! :D
edit: forgot a word and left a sentence without end :P
-
When did the rest of the world lose their voices?
Well, usually the paid actors are more reliable than someone in the community, since there is payment involved. Also, there have been threads regarding people providing voice acting, but I'm not sure that many have answered.
Besides, can't I support something? :)
-
going off-topic just a bit, but perhaps what the vsays would say could be posted and people could submit their recordings.
File and quality recordings listed, etc. Could get some nice vsays out of unexpected places, as well as give us all a chuckle at the 10 year old screeching marine saying "Come On!"
-
Again going offtopic - vsays (I blame khalsa for mentioning it ;) ) - Vortexx did few (http://www.tremfusion.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=143) humanish ones (http://www.tremfusion.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=131#p131) (few separate vsays (http://drop.io/vortvsays) (hope he doesn't mind)), he stopped though. I haven't seen him for a while, but I "recommend" him :)
PS. I believe v-says are also important topic, I'd love to see separate "official" thread about it.
-
Khalsa is making sense.
Troy, you seem to be stuck on the idea that the Devs will have to much control over what you do? Something like that?
(I admit I may have analysed that incorrectly)
But, wut?
Seriously, wut?
-
Khalsa is making sense.
Troy, you seem to be stuck on the idea that the Devs will have to much control over what you do? Something like that?
(I admit I may have analysed that incorrectly)
But, wut?
Seriously, wut?
As I already mentioned. I am more concerned of the 1.2 dying out and new players coming to see the top servers dead and... leaving.
Tremulous is actually not the first game to attempt to put dev servers on top (but too aggressively) and from my previous experience that is how it ends up. dev servers are 0s, and the rest of the server list is a mess of random names with all servers 0s besides some popular one, which just happened to have 1 more ms ping to not show on top of the server list. Even ignoring that, its just a bad impression, even if player will figure it out.
I think I am stating myself clearly enough. I do not run severs atm, I do not care if my server will be below the dev list. I am going to be using tremfusion, so the devlist is not a concern for me. I am just sure that there will be questions in the future about this, and much more concerns than I am stating here. I might overrate it though ,seeing that I am the only one concerned, so I might as well give up.
(dont forget : )
The case about mistrust is not in that I do not like what devs advert me to play (i.e. always-on-top servers) but is in the fact that developers here start to choose what they think is suitable for the players to play. I really do not understand that. Nowadays everyone plays on X server. what is so big deal about it? People like it, thats the whole point. People are satisfied with what they get on the X server, and they have ALL of the freedom to go to a different one if they start to dislike the situation. (I am personally indifferent to X server)
Another case, as you did clarify to me, is that the player cannot remove the dev servers from the top of the list, even if he sorts by a different criteria. (and assuming person is not aware of the tremfusion alternative or a way to re-compile the client). Which is going to prove to be an annoyance to the player. At least SOME option to disable it will do a great difference in the approach that devs take.
Edit : or a CLEAR indication of a modified server, and what mod it runs would at least show the player that the other servers are different. (i.e. a sorting by mod as other games have)
As for tuple, I already said a pretty logical statement. And you ran your stock servers when there werent any dev servers.
Lets take server with name : StockGameplay
and server with name : Official Server #1
now lets start like as if they are just put on the server list.
the Official Server #1 is on the top of the list, no matter what. The player will see it and will consider to try it out. afterall its official, that means its good.
On the other hand, the StockGameplay server is on the 2nd page of the server list, where only desperate for change people look for, to find something new and different from the stock gameplay. Again, whats the point to have a server with stock gameplay if dev servers are "perfect" in the sence? With great admins, playerbase and community? You may use that server as a backup if dev server will fill up, but thats pretty much it.
At least make a proper mod sorting criteria. So servers could report what mod they are running. ( if they want to)
-
+10 troy
-
Official servers on top is very reasonable. Many games feature such a system. Newbies should go there first when trying the game, learning the features. Those servers need to be run by very noob friendly and very anti-griefer positioned admins though.
Partially agreeing with Slacker I would suggest three servers or server groups:
Locations
- North America
- Europe
- Australia (caters also to the asian players)
Maybe an additional server in South America, since the ping to NA seems to be pretty bad from many locations in Central SA.
I am not so sure about the featured servers though. Maybe rotate them week by week, f.e. one week an amp enhanced server, one week a mission based server (not the map, the style), one week a server with only custom maps etc...
I would also suggest to permanently pin the Wrath server that caters to the noobs. I don't run it but I find it to be extremely helpful to teach newbies how to hunt eggs, build bases and in general learn to play the game.
-
If the official servers are admined 24/7 by two (NO LESS) active administrators, they should be at the top. If not, fuck you guys. Your servers are no better than anyone else's.
-
Nathan fillion? Please!
Still, as long as this is not a permanent institution, its a good idea. But in the final game, it should not be a featured list. It should be that 1.2 servers float to the top (either by different protocol or whatever), and 1.1 servers, if listed, dont
-
Please, notice, I'm not arguing against the featured servers.
Problem: I want Tremulous to be more mod friendly (http://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3818)
I think the main problem here is not having modded servers, but having modded servers which are not properly setup (which seems to be the standard :( ). Setting up the mod in the base directory and making Trem unpure is not the right way to do things, setting up the mod in a pure mod directory is. Maybe you could give some thinking to ways of making server admins to set up their servers correctly (like: adding some more advantages to being a pure server). And together with this, show the mod directory name in the server browser.
-
This thread calls for an Ozzy-post. 2 Parts. Part one says what's going down with the server stickies, part two says "fuck you, khalsa and kevlar".
Part 1: Okay, you always get your way, so have it. Don't fuck it up.
Funny how MG always expresses extreme distaste in my server name, with the boxes in front to put it up top, and then they're going to pull the same shit. Good stuff.
I saved AA when Hibby asked me to because I didn't want the game to be handed over to X servers. We have the same motive, MG and me. We both wanna see trem survive with decent gameplay that is enjoyable competitively. Only difference is going to be our taste in what is better, 1.1 or 1.2.
I know you guys are all excited about 1.2, thinking its going to be a new start for players to join the game, and that may be true, at least for a while. What worries me is down the road when you coders, IRC chatters, and forum junkies go inactive again.
As someone said, if you guys keep your servers adminned 'round the clock more or less, good goin'. I'm willing to step down and let you coders have the game you want it, cause you made it, but you will do it without me. I think its unfair, I think its a forced move to Norf's mod, and I think you guys are going to fuck it up by not playing your game (again), but you release the clients and I don't, so gg.
Let's put puretrem at the top of the list and see how it goes. I can use a break from the 25 bucks a month anyway.
Part 2: A defense of AA
Oh, side note, lay the fuck off guys. You attack my way of sticking AA at the top...and then your servers get pinned at the top. You criticize how modded trem has become and force us to play Norf's Mod. You dis me for having only ATCS (I don't) when Kevlarman wrote my rotation for me, and Lakitu implemented it. I might have some custom maps if there was a download prompt in the old version. I host my server the way I do because it's the only way that will work.
We run ATCS until we get a full load o' fuckers, and then we switch maps (without an intermission time) so that we all move to the new map. You stay too long on another map, the newbies leave, and where do you think they end up if they aren't playing on my server?
I could have taken down AA a year ago, but today all you would see are X servers and if we were lucky, servers run by someone else, the same way I do. In response to criticisms of the way me hibby, and yes Lakitu7 (and a small bit of Kevlarman) have set up my server, fuck off.
-
You guys are incredibly whiny ::).
-
You guys are incredibly whiny ::).
You gonna whine about it or address the points? :P :-\
-
Tremulous developers created a game, and would like to see newbies playing that game. <<< Fair enough, could you guarantee that the dev servers will not be deserted, or admin-less with every second player being a griefer?
I would like to feature one or two mod servers for the general population per month, so users can see the breadth of what's out there <<< On what basis? Can you guarantee it being unbiased?
I'd bet they will be way better administrated than the average.
And the picking will be 100% fair. Everyone who wants to submit a mod can, and then we pick via RNG. The first has already been chosen as Amanieu mod that destroys your client, and the second as one that breaks out of the VM to overwrite your disk. Kinda sucks how it turned out, but fairness is way more important than a good user experience right?
Note for the dipshits: I am not a dev, I know nothing more than you do (or you could if you read everything public), and everything in this post is bullshit.
-
If admins are chosen carefully, these official servers will be better than every other server out there right now (including ours), and a bunch of us will come back and play. If they are not, then...
Suggestion: try not to give admin to anyone in a clan (keep everything within MG). Be especially wary of certain people who pretend to be nice and righteous on the forums but abuse in-game.
Overall: cool, I hope these servers are permanent (relatively)!
-
Official servers should NOT be pinned if they do not fit a COMMUNITY CHOSEN criteria. All other servers that fit this criteria should be pinned, as well, but differentiated in some way from the official servers.
-
I'd be extrememly dissapointed if AA dies. It has a great community around the server, and it is near enough trem as trem is meant to be.
And it will die, whether it be ozzy getting peed at the devs, or the stickying of the servers. And the stickying will inveitably negatively impact the player ran server populations, and you cannot argue otherwise.
I dont see why you dont just have a single official server stickied up top, and have a classification, of pure (near enough), gameplay changing, and other sorts.
-
As I understand it, default sort in the 1.2 clients will be by ping (I just verified it), meaning that the servers that are presently at the top of the default 1.1 client which sorts by name may or may not appear at the top of the list for any particular 1.2 client. Even without the official/featured designation, AA or any server for that matter may not be near the top of your clients list.
If you have a newer client you can sort by ping right now and get an idea of how the server list will look in 1.2. Is AA or <insert your favorite servers here> near the top? Maybe for you they are, but maybe not. If they are for you, that doesn't mean that they will be for anyone else.
I don't think people realize that sort by ping is going to affect the appearance of servers on the list much more than anything else, but I think its a good thing. Servers in good datacenters with low latency will appear higher in the server lists of more clients, and will get more traffic as a result.
Its easy to tell which servers will show up at the top of my list, but guessing which servers will appear at the top of most player's clients is difficult to tell. However, if AA has a low ping to more clients it will still be near the top of more tremulous clients and will therefore be populated. If not, it won't regardless if there are official servers or not.
Right now the servers at the top number what, 10 or 11? 1.2 will put different servers at the top of each individual client based on ping.
-
As I understand it, default sort in the 1.2 clients will be by ping (I just verified it), meaning that the servers that are presently at the top of the default 1.1 client which sorts by name may or may not appear at the top of the list for any particular 1.2 client. Even without the official/featured designation, AA or any server for that matter may not be near the top of your clients list.
If you have a newer client you can sort by ping right now and get an idea of how the server list will look in 1.2. Is AA or <insert your favorite servers here> near the top? Maybe for you they are, but maybe not. If they are for you, that doesn't mean that they will be for anyone else.
I don't think people realize that sort by ping is going to affect the appearance of servers on the list much more than anything else, but I think its a good thing. Servers in good datacenters with low latency will appear higher in the server lists of more clients, and will get more traffic as a result.
Its easy to tell which servers will show up at the top of my list, but guessing which servers will appear at the top of most player's clients is difficult to tell. However, if AA has a low ping to more clients it will still be near the top of more tremulous clients and will therefore be populated. If not, it won't regardless if there are official servers or not.
Right now the servers at the top number what, 10 or 11? 1.2 will put different servers at the top of each individual client based on ping.
Offtopic, but wouldnt it be better to REMEMBER last sorting that player has done? If he sorted by name, that means he wanted that sorting, and next time will likely want it again.
-
actually, not offtopic since people are complaining about how official servers will affect the server list without considering other things that will affect the server list much more dramatically.
-
If I decide to start a 1.2 server of my own, will it be featured? Or is that a special rite given only to special servers that are special?
-
Suggestion: try not to give admin to anyone in a clan (keep everything within MG).
this would be bad why should you be excluded because your in a clan. cant people in clans still be fair etc theres no reason for this restriction. also limiting it to MG only is just as bad.
And the picking will be 100% fair. Everyone who wants to submit a mod can, and then we pick via RNG. The first has already been chosen as Amanieu mod that destroys your client, and the second as one that breaks out of the VM to overwrite your disk. Kinda sucks how it turned out, but fairness is way more important than a good user experience right?
Dont forget that mod that can crash servers.... oh wait that's trem 1.1. you should give amanieu a little more respect he has fixed 99pct of the bugs in tremulous and his mods/clients are not that bad infact they are quite good. david most mods give a user experience that usually matches trem or surpasses it with a hell of alotta bugfixes that are not in vanilla trem.
-
actually, not offtopic since people are complaining about how official servers will affect the server list without considering other things that will affect the server list much more dramatically.
The point of the topic is that the dev servers will always stay on the top. Before servers were struggling for names to be on top, now they will struggle to get lowest ping - yes it will change the server list, but it will not affect the dev server hat. The topic is about that issue precisely. :)
-
And the picking will be 100% fair. Everyone who wants to submit a mod can, and then we pick via RNG. The first has already been chosen as Amanieu mod that destroys your client, and the second as one that breaks out of the VM to overwrite your disk. Kinda sucks how it turned out, but fairness is way more important than a good user experience right?
Dont forget that mod that can crash servers.... oh wait that's trem 1.1. you should give amanieu a little more respect he has fixed 99pct of the bugs in tremulous and his mods/clients are not that bad infact they are quite good. david most mods give a user experience that usually matches trem or surpasses it with a hell of alotta bugfixes that are not in vanilla trem.
amanieu was the one who discovered that bug and wrote the proof of concept, so it is his "mod". (it's already fixed on x86, ppc and x86_64 should be fixed before the release)
-
I'm all for having a fair sort by ping. My argument is not "omg AA should be at the top." We didn't add boxes to our name until other servers began doing so, so if we remove them completely from everyone and sort by ping, sweet shit.
That's why it's being ignored as a bigger change than the stickies: Sort by ping = fair, sort by ping but MG's favorite servers up top = not fair.
-
That's why it's being ignored as a bigger change than the stickies: Sort by ping = fair, sort by ping but MG's favorite servers up top = not fair.
Exactly.
Now prepare for the MG members to tell you why this is in no way related to MG.
-
Because it isn't?
I really fail to see how MG has anything to do with anything anymore. MG hasn't done *anything* for ages and ages, and may as well be dead IMO. The only reason it's still around is because people hope that post 1.2 it might start doing stuff again.
So can someone tell me what power MG the evil overlords have? Or tell me how is the slightest this *would* be related to MG.
/me nominates paradox to be todays evil cabal, and blames all the worlds ill's on him.
-
So can someone tell me what power MG the evil overlords have? Or tell me how is the slightest this *would* be related to MG.
I don't think it's that so much... most of us just resent you because you have two userbars under your name on the forum, whilst we have none. Making spiteful topics about MG getting stickied (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9Zot-kxde9Q/RkvU79-TxAI/AAAAAAAAAGQ/8TH6shMNDgw/s320/semen+movie+poster+1.gif) servers ingame is just our way of harassing and punishing you for it in a roundabout manner.
-
The official servers aren't MG servers. It just so happens that Khalsa has a server that MG uses that has also been offered for official servers. Other people are hosting servers too (eg the euro server, and I'd guess anywhere else in the world where they can get a decent server.)
-
my issue is i dont want "official" 400 ping servers on the top of my server list.
This is something that we simply hadn't thought of, but I agree. Done (http://svn.icculus.org/tremulous?view=rev&revision=1848).
-
Official servers scare me like State Sponsored Religion but as long as some good servers get featured it'll work out :D
-
You quote yourself? How pretentious!
-
cant we just go back to having whoever had the most 0's in front of their server be at the top of the list? that seemed pretty democratic to me.
-
cant we just go back to having whoever had the most 0's in front of their server be at the top of the list? that seemed pretty democratic to me.
wat???? i cant belive it! i hate those "0000000000000000000oneletter" severs
-
cant we just go back to having whoever had the most 0's in front of their server be at the top of the list? that seemed pretty democratic to me.
Nope :) (http://projects.mercenariesguild.net/projects/tremulous/repository/revisions/1803)
-
thx kasla ;)
-
Yeah that's my favorite change so far with the servers actually. If we lose the [][][] but gain the official/featured servers that would be worth it.
You quote yourself? How pretentious!
But but but this guy (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6100) did it first!
-
The point of the topic is that the dev servers will always stay on the top. Before servers were struggling for names to be on top, now they will struggle to get lowest ping - yes it will change the server list, but it will not affect the dev server hat. The topic is about that issue precisely. :)
One can't struggle to get the lowest ping. Ping depends on the area the server and the client are. And if it was possible, that'd be a wonderful side effect.
-
One can't struggle to get the lowest ping. Ping depends on the area the server and the client are. And if it was possible, that'd be a wonderful side effect.
Thats not entirely true. Ping also depends very heavily on the quality on the network equipment it travels through, and how much network equipment it has to travel through. So if I put a server in a building that houses an internet POP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_exchange_point) (which is what I always called them >.> ) my server could have many fewer network devices to travel through before it gets to any one house. That house's ISP may be crappy, but the ping won't have my crappy ISP to add to it, as it will be plugged in really close to one of the major internet onramps. :) ISPs can vary as to how "close" you will be to a POP. I used speakeasy dsl for quite a while. My 256K connection had much lower ping (and more reliability) than most home ISPs and I was able to host an 8-10 trem server on it. Most will tell you it won't work but that ISP guaranteed a single hop to a POP, which means quality will most likely be high, and it was. Over 12 it went downhill fast, but it was low latency to lots of people.
My thought is that servers on most peoples home connections may have a hard time getting high up in a large percentage of lists because of the added latency. Servers in data centers near POPs will be higher in more peoples lists and will probably get more traffic and visibility as a result.
-
Just wait for Paradox to tell you why featured servers are in no way related to him.
-
my issue is i dont want "official" 400 ping servers on the top of my server list.
This is something that we simply hadn't thought of, but I agree. Done (http://svn.icculus.org/tremulous?view=rev&revision=1848).
Awesome, looks like the Americans are going to be stuck with official dev servers unlike the rest of the world. Let's just hope that they don't add an official dev server down here now.
-
my issue is i dont want "official" 400 ping servers on the top of my server list.
This is something that we simply hadn't thought of, but I agree. Done (http://svn.icculus.org/tremulous?view=rev&revision=1848).
Awesome, looks like the Americans are going to be stuck with official dev servers unlike the rest of the world. Let's just hope that they don't add an official dev server down here now.
don't give em ideas damanal :p. anyway thanks for adding the little check with them. still 200 ping can be hard to play tbh id suggest the limit for showing them to be something like 150 or so.
-
IMO the limit should be 100 for lagged, and 200 for unlagged.
-
Problem: Practically every server out there is 'modified' in some way or another
The easiest solution for this problem is for the Trem devs to release bug fixes every time a new critical bug is discovered. I know that GA was forced to change QVMs after months of griefers constantly crashing the server. We now have slightly different gameplay (luckily most of the balance changes have recently been reverted. I can now decon dead structures :D ) because the Trem devs haven't shown any inclination of making a bug fix release.
Problem: I want Tremulous to be more mod friendly (http://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3818)
Then perhaps the best idea would be to write a modding guide or at the very least a modding best practices post. At the moment all the information about modding is very fragmented.
Problem: Tremulous developers created a game, and would like to see newbies playing that game.
Then give the community the tools to allow people to play that game. Please provide bug fix releases.
Problem: During the beta release we need to ensure we are getting full data from populated development servers to help us create the best 1.2 possible.
Fair enough although I have to wonder how many beta servers will actually be up.
Problem: I would like to feature one or two mod servers for the general population per month, so users can see the breadth of what's out there
Are we talking about users or just american users?
Problem: There are too many 'crappy' servers out there that newbies first join and get discouraged from Tremulous after playing there
I'm not too sure what you mean by crappy. As in X crappy or everyone is too skilled for a newbie crappy?
-
Problem: Practically every server out there is 'modified' in some way or another
The easiest solution for this problem is for the Trem devs to release bug fixes every time a new critical bug is discovered. I know that GA was forced to change QVMs after months of griefers constantly crashing the server. We now have slightly different gameplay (luckily most of the balance changes have recently been reverted. I can now decon dead structures :D ) because the Trem devs haven't shown any inclination of making a bug fix release.
They have been releasing those bug fixes, right here: http://svn.icculus.org/tremulous/trunk/
And I'm sure there will be servers elsewhere if they can be found. Server's aren't cheap.
And X crappy.
-
If admins are chosen carefully, these official servers will be better than every other server out there right now (including ours), and a bunch of us will come back and play. If they are not, then...
Suggestion: try not to give admin to anyone in a clan (keep everything within MG). Be especially wary of certain people who pretend to be nice and righteous on the forums but abuse in-game.
Overall: cool, I hope these servers are permanent (relatively)!
I completely agree with this sentiment.
If you have "official" servers at the top, staffed with friendly administrators, new players will return repeatedly.
More importantly than that, you will be able to create an abuse-free environment, without having games ruined by griefers, deconners, and aimbotters.
It would seem the most vocal opponents to this are those who would stand to lose the most from this implementation (i.e. if your server is near the top in the default client).
-
I completely agree with this sentiment.
If you have "official" servers at the top, staffed with friendly administrators, new players will return repeatedly.
More importantly than that, you will be able to create an abuse-free environment, without having games ruined by griefers, deconners, and aimbotters.
It would seem the most vocal opponents to this are those who would stand to lose the most from this implementation (i.e. if your server is near the top in the default client).
Or people who don't trust the devs to properly and constantly administrate and moderate a server.
-
I completely agree with this sentiment.
If you have "official" servers at the top, staffed with friendly administrators, new players will return repeatedly.
More importantly than that, you will be able to create an abuse-free environment, without having games ruined by griefers, deconners, and aimbotters.
It would seem the most vocal opponents to this are those who would stand to lose the most from this implementation (i.e. if your server is near the top in the default client).
Or people who don't trust the devs to properly and constantly administrate and moderate a server.
And I'm both.
Problem is one man's view of abuse is his own. How many times do you want to let the noob move the rc into a shitty spot before you start denybuilding him so that he can't ruin the game for the rest of the players?
"ABUSE! I was just trying to learn to build!!"
-
That's why you ban his ip range with the reason: "lern 2 bild newb." Then he can't bitch at you about abuse. And if he comes after you on the forums, you have hoards of trolls, oldfags (http://img.4chan.org/b/imgboard.html), and dipshit mods at your disposal to condescend the hell out of him 'til he either snaps and is banned as a result, flees in terror never to return, or commandeers Khalsa's account and demands that you bitches listen to what he has to say.
-
Problem: Practically every server out there is 'modified' in some way or another
The easiest solution for this problem is for the Trem devs to release bug fixes every time a new critical bug is discovered. I know that GA was forced to change QVMs after months of griefers constantly crashing the server. We now have slightly different gameplay (luckily most of the balance changes have recently been reverted. I can now decon dead structures :D ) because the Trem devs haven't shown any inclination of making a bug fix release.
They have been releasing those bug fixes, right here: http://svn.icculus.org/tremulous/trunk/
And I'm sure there will be servers elsewhere if they can be found. Server's aren't cheap.
And X crappy.
thats tremulous SVN danmal means that after each big bug discovered it gets backported/whatevers needed to be compatable and be releases with the bugfix. the way mythtv does it would work they keep trunk current but with each release they make a fixes branch and backport all the bugfixes you could use that fixes branch to create official "bugfix" releases everytime something really big needs fixing. but thats up to the devs how they want to handle their svn and releases i just hope they consider it.
-
They have been releasing those bug fixes, right here: http://svn.icculus.org/tremulous/trunk/
And I'm sure there will be servers elsewhere if they can be found. Server's aren't cheap.
And X crappy.
That's not an official release though. The devs haven't made any guarantee that the svn code doesn't have any number of bugs. In fact most projects caution a user against downloading from SVN because it's usually not as stable as a normal release. Aren't you also required to backport the svn code for a it to work with Tremulous 1.1 clients/servers?
It would seem the most vocal opponents to this are those who would stand to lose the most from this implementation (i.e. if your server is near the top in the default client).
It would seem the most vocal proponents to this are those who would stand to gain the most from this implementation (i.e. if you consider it likely that you'll get admin on an official server).
See how easy it is to make big sweeping statements that aren't actually true? I personally don't think that people who are in favour of adding official servers are doing it for their own benefit. Don't you think that same courtesy could be extended to those who oppose the creation of offical servers?
-
(i.e. if you consider it likely that you'll get admin on an official server).
I've never understood why people think being an admin is a good/fun thing. It means you have extra responsibility and are more accountable for your actions than a regular player. You don't get any extra rights; you get extra duties. And if you do your job well, you get rewarded by having players your job affects hate you. How does one benefit in any way by being an admin?
-
I've always thought the same thing actually. However for some people they just absolutely love being an admin. Usually those sorts of people make poor admins though...
-
I've never understood why people think being an admin is a good/fun thing. It means you have extra responsibility and are more accountable for your actions than a regular player. You don't get any extra rights; you get extra duties. And if you do your job well, you get rewarded by having players your job affects hate you. How does one benefit in any way by being an admin?
You are the LAW. It's a fun responsibility to some. Keeping the peace, y'know?
-
It would seem the most vocal opponents to this are those who would stand to lose the most from this implementation (i.e. if your server is near the top in the default client).
It would seem the most vocal proponents to this are those who would stand to gain the most from this implementation (i.e. if you consider it likely that you'll get admin on an official server).
See how easy it is to make big sweeping statements that aren't actually true? I personally don't think that people who are in favour of adding official servers are doing it for their own benefit. Don't you think that same courtesy could be extended to those who oppose the creation of offical servers?
It was not my original intention to create a sweeping, overly broad generalization; I merely wanted to reiterate the original argument stems from a certain individual.
However, I suppose I don't really see the danger in letting there be official development servers stickied at the top of the server list, much like there are stickies on a forum. I feel that the development team has done no action which warrants suspicion of them, furthermore, I would argue that all their actions thus far should have earned them a significant amount of trust by the community.
At the end of the day, I don't really see any harm being done. I am sure the vast majority of players will continue to play on the servers they are comfortable with, while newer players will be exposed to a friendly environment which can foster interest in the game, as opposed to them going to a server like X/A/[insert mod here].
-
It was not my original intention to create a sweeping, overly broad generalization; I merely wanted to reiterate the original argument stems from a certain individual.
However, I suppose I don't really see the danger in letting there be official development servers stickied at the top of the server list, much like there are stickies on a forum. I feel that the development team has done no action which warrants suspicion of them, furthermore, I would argue that all their actions thus far should have earned them a significant amount of trust by the community.
At the end of the day, I don't really see any harm being done. I am sure the vast majority of players will continue to play on the servers they are comfortable with, while newer players will be exposed to a friendly environment which can foster interest in the game, as opposed to them going to a server like X/A/[insert mod here].
We've never seen the devs admin a server. Why the hell should we trust them to? They've actually shown a lack of dedication to the community through their inactivity over the years. I don't want shitty servers stickied at the top of my list.
-
who said the devs would be the only ones admining it? Its sounding a bit to me like its gonna be anyone who earns a position there would be eligible for admins....
-
We've never seen the devs admin a server. Why the hell should we trust them to? They've actually shown a lack of dedication to the community through their inactivity over the years. I don't want shitty servers stickied at the top of my list.
Then quit whining, don't play the game, and HAND.
-
(i.e. if you consider it likely that you'll get admin on an official server).
I've never understood why people think being an admin is a good/fun thing. It means you have extra responsibility and are more accountable for your actions than a regular player. You don't get any extra rights; you get extra duties. And if you do your job well, you get rewarded by having players your job affects hate you. How does one benefit in any way by being an admin?
Most people that ask me for admin want it so that they don't get deconned when there aren't other admins on. When you are an admin, any time you are on you can expect a well-adminned game, in other words. :)
-
And if you do your job well, you get rewarded by having players your job affects hate you. How does one benefit in any way by being an admin?
1. When someone decons, I'd like the damage he does to be reverted. At very least for him not to come back for a few hours. /callvote kick may not be a very long duration of time (potentially for good reasons). If he decides to come back, he'll have at least 30 seconds before anyone can do something without an admin around. If you are an admin, there is always an admin around when you play. Similarly, if you get a newbie builder who keeps moving to the ATCS bunker, you'd have to /callvote kick him if you weren't an admin (as a move can happen in the 30 seconds of the game before a callvote will take effect). An admin can just !denybuild the poor guy for a few games until he takes a hint.
2. NamedPlayer called a vote to kick UnnamedPlayer for "noob" ... !cancelvote.
3. And if you do your job well, some people (that you probably don't worry about) will get angry at you. If you do similar things via /callvote, you'll get the same response.
We've never seen the devs admin a server. Why the hell should we trust them to? They've actually shown a lack of dedication to the community through their inactivity over the years. I don't want shitty servers stickied at the top of my list.
Er, I'd say the dev server is pretty well admined, though I guess its very nature attracts less greifers.
Then there's servers that are managed by people who happen to be devs, like PureTremulous, which also has a distinct lack of greifers.
Furthermore, are you're saying that inactivity (I haven't been here when the devs have not been active, so I don't know anything about said inactivity) is evidence of a poor admin? Do you think that the devs (who admin these forums) would make poor admins/server owners?
Is three stickied slots really that much of an inconvenience to you?
-
Is three stickied slots really that much of an inconvenience to you?
The community is just cycling through every little problem until we enter beta it seems.
-
However, I suppose I don't really see the danger in letting there be official development servers stickied at the top of the server list, much like there are stickies on a forum. I feel that the development team has done no action which warrants suspicion of them, furthermore, I would argue that all their actions thus far should have earned them a significant amount of trust by the community.
We're not talking about official development servers. Personally I have no problems with dev servers being at the top of the list during the beta release but I see no reason for there to be official servers at the top of the list during an actual release.
At the end of the day, I don't really see any harm being done. I am sure the vast majority of players will continue to play on the servers they are comfortable with, while newer players will be exposed to a friendly environment which can foster interest in the game, as opposed to them going to a server like X/A/[insert mod here].
What exactly is the problem with a modded server? I personally don't enjoy X but judging by how many people play there I don't seem to be in the majority. What makes X so much worse for a newbie then regular Tremulous? Not only that but hopefully the next version of Tremulous will have a column listing which mod each server is running. This will help to clear up any confusion a newbie might have as to whether they're playing a modded server or not.
Is three stickied slots really that much of an inconvenience to you?
It is when the servers are designed to fix problems that they're wholly incapable of fixing. Yes, they seem like a nice easy solution to fix a bunch of problems but the servers won't fix any of those problems.
-
Er, I'd say the dev server is pretty well admined, though I guess its very nature attracts less greifers.
Then there's servers that are managed by people who happen to be devs, like PureTremulous, which also has a distinct lack of greifers.
Furthermore, are you're saying that inactivity (I haven't been here when the devs have not been active, so I don't know anything about said inactivity) is evidence of a poor admin? Do you think that the devs (who admin these forums) would make poor admins/server owners?
Is three stickied slots really that much of an inconvenience to you?
You see, it's not the fact that they're there. I can avoid looking them or clicking them as easily as I can KorX, or uBP, but it's a grasp at power and a show of totalitarian control of the game and it's functions. Now, as said, I'm all for stickied servers, if they are properly administrated on a round-the-clock basis. ANY server that meets certain criteria should be eligible for a sticky slot. Not just the "official servers", which, in many ways, will differ in negligible ways from other servers.
And I'm saying that the dev's inactivity demonstrates a lack of commitment to their community. This tells me that they are incapable as a whole to properly watch over and safeguard a server. Of course, they've not been put into practice like this, and I'm simply theorizing. When 1.2 goes beta and then full release, we'll see how the official server fares. But, I'll tell you, if it is poorly administrated, the server should not be hugging the top of the list. It could result in a massive loss of potential playerbase. If newbies come in, and get griefed on the official server, they will hate the game.
Hosting an official, and stickied, server for any game requires a lot of responsibility which I simply haven't seen the devs demonstrate over the years I've been part of this community. They will need to help and encourage new players, constantly monitor for aimboters, wallhackers, glitchers, and the like. It'll force them into releasing bug fixes, as they'll be directly connected to the core game and therefore be well aware of such things. Re-release "official" maps that are buggy (because nothing official should be buggy for too long). It requires, as I said many a time, a true commitment to the community.
-
...And I'm saying that the dev's inactivity demonstrates...
Hi, can you tell me the dates when all the developers were inactive?
-
...And I'm saying that the dev's inactivity demonstrates...
Hi, can you tell me the dates when all the developers were inactive?
Are you asking when they were inactive as devs or inactive as players?
-
Perhaps since 1.1 has been released? Official servers are going to require a lot of effort which I have to admit I don't think you've quite realised. As Plague Bringer has mentioned a lot of official updates/bug fix releases will be required which isn't something that you (as a collective goup) have really done before.
I'm sorry but perhaps it would be more appropriate to try releasing 1.2 and see if it is at all feasible to make regular bug fixes/updates to the game. If it is then no doubt you could add this functionality in into one of your updates? If regular updates turns out to be too difficult to make then there's nothing lost.
-
The amount of stupidity and ignorance in this thread is overwhelming.
1. If you haven't seen devs admin, you never played on the dev servers
2. Quit your whining about your BOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXstupidname servers "probable" loss of player base
I on the other hand think, that with a new release and maybe another favourable article at moddb the player base will vastly increase and as such there will be enough players to fill EVERY, well run server. No matter how stupid or anti-everything you might be.
-
I like most people, see this as just an opportunity to put Pure Tremulous at the top of the server list so that you can tell new players what the proper gaming etiquette is and how the game is designed to be played. Do you notice how, PT which has hand picked admins through a rigorous process where all the admins started as or were mostly picked by MG members, is now a completely dead server? The thing was, no matter how you look at it, pure tremulous was too full of people telling you how you need to play and how you need to act when you play and now it has completely died. On the otherhand, the most popular "real 1.1" server AA in the US that Ozzy hosts is full of douchebag admins, abuse, swearing, and people just goofing off. Yet it has the most activity, the most intense games, and by far the biggest collection of skill regulating it. Do you know why? It's because people are allowed to play the game how they want, you don't get banned for trying out what is obviously a shitty base when your obviously should know how to build, or for shotgunning that faggot in the face that has been blasting you in the back all day. Sure it's not "polite" to kill him because he obviously is just new to aiming, but it sure does give him something to think about, and in 9 times out of 10 they'll apologize and say please don't kill me I'm sorry(in broken confusing english) and in that 10% where they react badly by deconning or going on an attempted killing spree, it just shows what kind of player they truly are anyway. There are reasons MG will never run a very popular server outside of their prime. 1, they're inactive. So inactive in playing its actually sad. Even in PT's high point, it was lucky to see even a handful of MG's(which basically ran the server) at any given point in time. Pop by AA now and then and see how many AoD members are on? Next, they pick admins that they respect, but also in turn almost never play. Then, they try and salvage that by picking active admins, such as shagarath, who god bless, has the fucking IQ of a rat. They consider niceness and calmness more important than intelligence when it comes to adminning. Where as Ozzy may pick douchebags, but guess what those douchebags know how to use the fucking !buildconfig and !revert commands properly. I during my playing saw 3 PT admins completely fail the process there, because the ones who know how to use them don't bother to play the game. Next PT and MG are built around a barrier of arrogance, now matter how you look at it. You can go read everyone of your posts on these forums, or check out your conversations in IRC. You guys just are elitists in a lot of senses. Now, obviously, you've done a lot of developing for this game, you've moderated the forums, and you were built from and were very involved in the community at one point but, you can't deny that because of this, you almost shelter yourselves from the rest of the community as some kind of higher life form. Whether or not its intentional, or whether or not you want to admit it. MG is kind of one of those special groups that sits above the rest. The reason you guys get along so well, is obviously because you agree on most things, otherwise you wouldn't be so tightly knit. Because of that though, you elect yourselves into the dev team, the adminning on the forums, and the officialy future of Tremulous. Which is just wrong, too much power has been placed into one opinion. Even if you ask for opinion on 1.2, in the end no matter how much bitching and screaming we make about hovels or this or that, you do what you feel will balance the game, based on your server that only plays public games with mostly the same people over and over.
Moving on since this is coming off as an assualt at MG which it is not meant to be. Nextly, PT died because it told people how you were meant to play on the server. How you had to play. All servers have rules, no deconning, etc, some even have no cussing allowed, but those are just basic guidelines to help keep the game fun. Outside of that we don't care how you like to play, if you'd like to have a friendly PK match with your teammates now and then, or if you'd like to try a way out there move once or twice, etc etc. PT had such a communistic playing feel of how MG wanted you to play, no real players ended up there. Just MG suckups(including myself at one point, *raises guilty hypocrit flag and says "oops"* and a few stragglers.
Bleh
tl;dr
Official pinned servers end up like PT and scare off new players who are here to actually... play... a game... like tremulous is... a game...
Inacitve MG or MG hand picked Admins
Ignorant hand picked admins are picked solely on attitude and not on balls to mute those who need to be muted or ability to actually even understand the admin commnads and how they work.
Biasm in general.
-
The amount of stupidity and ignorance in this thread is overwhelming.
1. If you haven't seen devs admin, you never played on the dev servers
2. Quit your whining about your BOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXstupidname servers "probable" loss of player base
I on the other hand think, that with a new release and maybe another favourable article at moddb the player base will vastly increase and as such there will be enough players to fill EVERY, well run server. No matter how stupid or anti-everything you might be.
1. I'm not talking about just on saturday when the dev games are scheduled. I jokingly called a vote to kick an MG member last time I was on thinking it would just show *Ozzy tried to call a vote on immune admin Exclamation*, and it passed, and there wasn't shit for admin until I had to beg lakitu7 to come on to unban exclamation.
2. Quit being a asshole for no reason. Nobody else has a server to whine about, so I'm taking this as a personal attack. I've put a lot of time and effort into keeping my server habitable, and I think it's shit to have someone suggest that their server is going to be better (featured) when those someones play less trem than any of the 7 admins I just set to level zero for not playing enough.
I disagree that my admins are douchebags, though I admit there are a couple I have to watch closely, but as silver said there are more important qualities for admins to have. Go ahead and decon AA, and see if we don't catch you, revert, and ban you. Now try your luck on the dev server.
There are servers with just as many boxes in their names as mine has, with the same settings and maybe even a better ping. Players like to play on administrated servers, and not just on Saturdays.
-
Servers disappeared because of cannibalization. The player base shrunk and the remaining players relocated. Admins don't cause a server to collapse, lack of players does. I've seen every dirty trick in the book played by admins and people will still play there as long there are active games or no other server to go to.
Tremulous was around long before revert and pause. People dealt with griefers without needing admins. In all, the only people left playing are a few diehards, people with shitty computers that can't run modern games (me), and total noobs. The problem is Tremulous doesn't hold people's attention if they can play other games. Its a cool game but somethings turn people off. Admin drama is just drama.
-
Wow, you guys just love drama.
Remember AKKA?
Remember TJW?
Remember BeerGarden?
Remember Aliens Wrath?
Remember SST?
Seriously, servers come and go. Its the nature of the beast.
PT died a while after it went off of the front page. Noone was willing to shrink or drop the name like others have, so it vanished into the past.
How you guys can survive on this overdose of drama is beyond me.
-
It's one thing when someone like Bissig calls it drama, playing little role in the argument.
It's pretty shitty when someone involved calls it drama as a means of defending their position.
There wouldn't be any drama if MG wasn't having its servers stickied.
-
Ah yes, it was of course me who decided what the devs should do. My membership in the Illuminat^H^H^H^H^H}MG{ is little more than further proof of my role in their, er, I mean our nefarious plan. But this is only step one. With the release of 1.2 we shall amass a tremulous army big enough to INVADE SUPER MARIO WORLD! And then whats to stop us from taking over the GALAXY!!
How a loosely affiliated group of geeks, many of whom have individually contributed a great deal to trem and still do, came to be associated with your boogie man is beyond me.
And the next time I'm involved in something, will someone please be kind enough to inform me? Here I thought I was posting on a forum about the merits and drawbacks of official servers, turns out it was about domination of the tremulous world. Who knew?!
-
I didn't say you were behind it, I said you were involved in this argument. You've been in the "drama" just as we all have, so for you to dismiss it in such a way because you don't like resistance is a cop-out.
If the devs didn't want domination of the server list, they wouldn't sticky their servers. I don't see how it isn't about Tremulous server list domination. However, the rest of the shit you posted is of course insultingly exaggerating my opinion that the server list (and super mario world for that matter) shouldn't be dictated in this way, which is exactly what this topic is about.
P.S. If you post a reply that deserves an answer I will PM you. I've wanted to stop this shit for a long time now. I hereby am taking a week off of posting in the general/feedback/dev sections.
-
As long as you share the mushrooms tuple I'll be ok with it.
-
Hmmm. There are a lot of posts here that seem to argue mainly (or merely, or simply comming accross as arguing that) the devs are evil and whatever is done that promotes 'dev' stamped things is also evil.
The more valid (though similar) argument seems to be that this kind of server list control is unnatural/arbitrary/a violation of the ideal that things should be based on certain (diretctly applicable) kinds of merit alone.
I come from the viewpoint that certain mods (such as p-g-qvm) are bad. Ok, so I dislike it, what's the big deal? I am worried that this gameplay, which I despize, might be (and is being) confused with vanillia tremulous, which I enjoy. After all, I too played a few games on X before I realized that this was different from vanillia trem. "You should fight with a blaster? Last time I tried it wasn't very good..." I'm pretty sure that the reason the bgranger has a bad name is because of people going to X without understanding how other servers were different.
Because of this I want, and I support, a standard that will say: "This is Vanillia tremulous". I don't want to denybuild people because they cannot tell the difference between (mostly) vanillia tremulous and a gameplay-changing mod that makes grangers able to fight. This is not mean I am against mods. I'd like a mod to change certian things (jetpack comes to mind), but I'd like to know if something is being changed, what is being changed (be it balance, ESD, or even share), and if possible, how I identify the changes so that I can look it up.
The stickies help the situation by providing an obvious frame of reference by which someone can see what is being modded.
-
I think that this feature is of course neither "good" nor "evil" like any technical tool, the question is how you use it.
What technically happens is that the master server sends out a new flag for "featured" servers (as decided by those who run the master server) and the tremulous default clients happens to sort servers based on this flag.
Other clients may ignore the flag or you could even distribute a special "Ozzy" client that puts the featured server at the bottom of the list. The master server simply cannot force a special ordering on the clients.
So how to use this ? Who will be guided to the featured servers ? Mostly new players who tend to get kicked from the "pro" servers anyway. After a while they will have more skill and look for a greater challenge and try out other servers (and by that time they know how to find their favourite servers).
So put a few well administered and newbie friendly servers on top and everybody wins.
-
Wow, you guys just love drama.
Remember AKKA?
Remember TJW?
Remember BeerGarden?
Remember Aliens Wrath?
Remember SST?
I can honestly say I've never heard of most of those servers.
The stickies help the situation by providing an obvious frame of reference by which someone can see what is being modded.
Having the devs make regular bug fix releases would probably help more in all honestly. Plus those servers can only help a certain minority of Tremulous players (those who live close to the server).
My only problem with these proposed servers are the following:
1. They can only serve a certain percentage of the Tremulous community
2. There doesn't seem to be any plan on how the servers will be run
3. Lack of updates in Trem 1.1 seem to indicate that either official servers will soon be running non-official QVMs or be vulnerable to griefers
4. The servers will not adequately address the problems that they are meant to solve
I'm sick and tired so sorry if I miss something or don't make any sense.
-
The stickies help the situation by providing an obvious frame of reference by which someone can see what is being modded.
Having the devs make regular bug fix releases would probably help more in all honestly.
What does that have to do with gameplay-changing mods? It might have made certain non-gamplay changing mods (like lakitu's qvm) obsolete, but I fail to see how that is relevant to the quoted text.
Plus those servers can only help a certain minority of Tremulous players (those who live close to the server).
My only problem with these proposed servers are the following:
1. They can only serve a certain percentage of the Tremulous community
I have no problem playing on the Euro server from North America, so I assume things aren't going to be unplaybly horrible from Austrailia and Asia. Also, as I understand it most of the players are from either Europe or North America.
Even if it worse than I think it is then perhaps it doesn't serve its purpose for that area. In this case I would like to see the master server sort offical and featured servers by ping only if their ping is greater than a certain amount (200? 250?).
2. There doesn't seem to be any plan on how the servers will be run
I guess that's fair enough.
3. Lack of updates in Trem 1.1 seem to indicate that either official servers will soon be running non-official QVMs or be vulnerable to griefers
If it got to that point, you'd either see a realease or clients that change the master server's ordering. This is a trust of the dev's thing, though. I don't think this will happen again, and at very least it won't happen in the near future.
Even if it does (which I doubt), you release a separate client that everyone uses (like TJW's was used beccause of guids) that unstickifies the offical servers, new non-gamplay changing qvms become commonplace, and the offical servers stay at the bottom of the list.
-
Considering I made the most popular unofficial non-gameplay-altering game.qvm for anti-griefers and such and I now make such things for official stuff, I don't think you terribly have to worry about such things being on official stuff as necessary. :)
-
Even if it worse than I think it is then perhaps it doesn't serve its purpose for that area. In this case I would like to see the master server sort offical and featured servers by ping only if their ping is greater than a certain amount (200? 250?).
Scroll up. We/it does this.
-
If we have featured servers.
We should compromise something out so that there is 3-5 featured servers.
1. Dev Server
2-4. Mostly default vanilla setting servers, with active admins, servers to be voted on by community/servers that the owners donated to tremulous.
5. Mod/Map Highlight of the week
This way, it's not just MG.
Tuple, you can't compare PT to any of the other servers you listed, because they lasted far longer, were far more active, and always had a lot more activity than PT ever had.
AA has been active, so active its a lot of times hard to get into, since long before PT was even in consideration let alone execution. I never once failed to connect to PT and I doubt anyone ever considered any private slots a necessity(not to say you didn't have any, you probably just didn't ever have to use them.)
PT died not because of boxes, but because of not enough active admins or regulars. Clanfolk hopped on and tried to help now and then, but "MG's idea of how the game is meant to be played" (SD/TL times, Sudden Death Mode 1 instead of 2, etc etc) just doesn't apeal to most of us who consider things like sudden death mode 2 to be an official standard of tremulous. There are a lot of balance helping or non-gameplay changing mods such as admin commands that the majority of the playerbase consider to be official and important to the game, and PT decided that they weren't and thats not the way the game was meant to be played. Thats why PT died, had nothing to do with boxes. Especially since even at PT's peek, it was mostly known players who knew about the server, not people who just jump to the first boxed up server they saw, so the servers with boxes would be irelevant.
I bet if we took the boxes off AA, while some pollack count would go down, the server wouldn't really take any noticeable decrease in playerbase.
-
What does that have to do with gameplay-changing mods? It might have made certain non-gamplay changing mods (like lakitu's qvm) obsolete, but I fail to see how that is relevant to the quoted text.
Because all modern QVMs (even lakitu's QVM) introduce some balance changes.
I have no problem playing on the Euro server from North America, so I assume things aren't going to be unplaybly horrible from Austrailia and Asia. Also, as I understand it most of the players are from either Europe or North America.
The ping is well above 200 on nearly every American server. I'd also disagree with most players being from America or Europe. There's plenty of players in other countries and I'd guess that the Australian Trem servers are about as popular as the American servers when you remove all the servers that substantially change gameplay (eg X, UBP, etc)
Even if it worse than I think it is then perhaps it doesn't serve its purpose for that area. In this case I would like to see the master server sort offical and featured servers by ping only if their ping is greater than a certain amount (200? 250?).
Sorry, I'm not sure if I quite understand what you're saying. The official servers are not shown to the client if their ping is above 250. Are you advocating something different?
Considering I made the most popular unofficial non-gameplay-altering game.qvm for anti-griefers and such and I now make such things for official stuff, I don't think you terribly have to worry about such things being on official stuff as necessary. :)
Sorry, do you plan on making official releases or continue to make unofficial releases?
-
If we have featured servers.
We should compromise something out so that there is 3-5 featured servers.
1. Dev Server
2-4. Mostly default vanilla setting servers, with active admins, servers to be voted on by community/servers that the owners donated to tremulous.
5. Mod/Map Highlight of the week
This way, it's not just MG.
This is exactly what is happening.
MG has nothing to do with this, other than donating a server. The devs have full control, MG has none.
Maybe people should start reading what the devs say? And not believe the conspiracy theories?
I can only conclude that you are either a bunch of complete retards or deliberately trolling.
-
I can only conclude that you are either a bunch of complete retards or deliberately trolling.
...MG...Elitist...
Way to prove his point. ::)
-
The amount of stupidity and ignorance in this thread is overwhelming.
1. If you haven't seen devs admin, you never played on the dev servers
2. Quit your whining about your BOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXBOXstupidname servers "probable" loss of player base
I on the other hand think, that with a new release and maybe another favourable article at moddb the player base will vastly increase and as such there will be enough players to fill EVERY, well run server. No matter how stupid or anti-everything you might be.
--- snip ---
2. Quit being a asshole for no reason. Nobody else has a server to whine about, so I'm taking this as a personal attack. I've put a lot of time and effort into keeping my server habitable, and I think it's shit to have someone suggest that their server is going to be better (featured) when those someones play less trem than any of the 7 admins I just set to level zero for not playing enough.
I disagree that my admins are douchebags, though I admit there are a couple I have to watch closely, but as silver said there are more important qualities for admins to have. Go ahead and decon AA, and see if we don't catch you, revert, and ban you. Now try your luck on the dev server.
There are servers with just as many boxes in their names as mine has, with the same settings and maybe even a better ping. Players like to play on administrated servers, and not just on Saturdays.
1. I never said anything about your admin base
2. I myself run and pay for a server that has a boxy name and one letter, so it will affect my server aswell. But, in light of a rising player base with a new release, I think every server will see an increase in players
3. Why does Tremulous have to do everything different from other/successful games?
-
This is exactly what is happening.
MG has nothing to do with this, other than donating a server. The devs have full control, MG has none.
The devs haven't mentioned any where in this thread that this is what they're planning. They've only said that they want to showcase new mods as well have a normal Tremulous server as well. Nothing about how many servers they plan on running or anything related to that.
3. Why does Tremulous have to do everything different from other/successful games?
What do you mean?
-
This is exactly what is happening.
MG has nothing to do with this, other than donating a server. The devs have full control, MG has none.
The devs haven't mentioned any where in this thread that this is what they're planning. They've only said that they want to showcase new mods as well have a normal Tremulous server as well. Nothing about how many servers they plan on running or anything related to that.
3. Why does Tremulous have to do everything different from other/successful games?
What do you mean?
No download, no sticky servers, no switchable huds to choose from, no demo maps or other introductions, no intermediate releases except for security updates, no well run homepage (I mean a REAL homepage, not a page with one news every six month and an outdated client download area - this does seem to change a bit thoug lately), no "media kit", no showcase...
-
I don't think I've played any other q3 based game (or any game otherwise for that matter, commercial or opensource, don't worry, I am aware that stickied server lists do, in fact, exist) that has the "chosen few" servers listed at the top. However, I believe that adding a tutorial level that you must complete in order to join any multiplayer server would more than make up for how hard it would be to create/implement and would solve a lot of the newbie problems.
-
So go make it.
Everyone always says how great such a level would be, but no one ever makes it.
In case you hadn't noticed, the (active) dev team doesn't include any mappers ATM.
-
Sorry, do you plan on making official releases or continue to make unofficial releases?
They'll be in svn trunk. How often changes from trunk will in the future be compiled to a binary and designated as "release" is not something I can answer. However, the official servers are not development servers. They will maintain compatibility with the current release. If trunk breaks compatibility leading to some future release, things will be "backported" to as necessary for the official servers and those patches will be made available.
-
So go make it.
Everyone always says how great such a level would be, but no one ever makes it.
In case you hadn't noticed, the (active) dev team doesn't include any mappers ATM.
I would gladly contribute my time and effort and make a training map or two, however, I lack any idea of what would be in it (voices, lots of code stuffs, models etc ???).
Also: Stannum is a mapper and is (somewhat) active.
-
no intermediate releases except for security updates
Trem doesn't have intermediate security releases. Some members of the community (who I'm eternally grateful for) have taken this responsibility on by themselves and released security updates whenever a problem has been found. (you are talking about Trem and not other Q3 games right?).
However, the official servers are not development servers. They will maintain compatibility with the current release. If trunk breaks compatibility leading to some future release, things will be "backported" to as necessary for the official servers and those patches will be made available.
Some ISPs in Australia provide game servers however they are unfortunately not crash hot on downloading third party patches. In fact we had to deal with a lot of griefers for a long time before we could convince them to change to a third party QVM and because of that we've always lagged behind the griefers and usually had to endure a few weeks of people screwing us over before an update could be pressed into service.
While providing developer sanctioned patches is a great step forward why not also provide the QVMs or executables (as an official update) whenever the official servers are updated? This wouldn't require too much more effort as you already have to compile the code anyway (at worst you'll have to compile the code for another platform as well). Not only would it help people interested in running only official "dev approved" code but it would also help people setting up a new server as all the updates would already be there on the download page.
If you do decide to do this then can I ask you that you make a post on the frontpage whenever a new bug fix is released? I've been caught a few times running an older QVM because I didn't know a new QVM was out that fixed some exploits. Having that info on the front page would definitely help me and no doubt others to run a secure server which in turn would make the game more pleasant for the players.
-
I don't really have any objection to putting up the game.qvm of whatever is running on the official servers, but giving it official endorsement of the developers as a whole beyond just me, or putting it on trem.net, affects more than just me and would need to be discussed with others, so I can't answer right now.
-
If we have featured servers.
We should compromise something out so that there is 3-5 featured servers.
1. Dev Server
2-4. Mostly default vanilla setting servers, with active admins, servers to be voted on by community/servers that the owners donated to tremulous.
5. Mod/Map Highlight of the week
This way, it's not just MG.
This is exactly what is happening.
MG has nothing to do with this, other than donating a server. The devs have full control, MG has none.
Maybe people should start reading what the devs say? And not believe the conspiracy theories?
I can only conclude that you are either a bunch of complete retards or deliberately trolling.
Nowhere have they posted how they are going to assign those servers, and even Paradox asked the simple question of will that mean just "special" servers will get pinned or will he have a chance to have his 1.2 server pinned, which if I'm not wrong no one bothered to answer.
The reason is, we are not listening to the devs, we are listening to MG's. Tuple and you David, the two most active posters in here, are both not devs, and both are MG members. Yet you're apparently doing all the defending and explaining of whats going on, or just? uhm.. calling us all paranoid people? You guys jumped the line first telling us we were afraid of MG "taking over the world" and other bullshit like that, that we clearly were not intending. It is obvious though, that as we see it, as we get no real info on the matter, that MG Dev's are going to pin MG servers and tell the rest of us to fuck off. Nowhere has anyone mentioned community decisions on what servers are pinned, the only thing mentioned was possibly donations allowing pinned slots to pay for voice acting ect.
The Tremulous Development Team will run a couple of official servers, plus we will have 1-2 other featured servers that will be by default sorted to the top of the server browser for the beta.
What are we supose to assume that means? I mean, we don't even get the basis of an incite of what the 1-2 "other" servers will be, and we are only to assume that MG will be picking what those 1-2 servers will be not that we'll have any say in the matter. I mean, when's the last time any reasonable activity was spent in game from Devs or MG or just Devs on the forum in general. They may be active on private boards for all we know, but we don't. We don't get any really input or effort on forums from non-MG Devs(just an occasional pop in to tell us we're whiny or something else unrelated to tremulous developement) and we don't get any interaction from MG-Dev's or other MG members either for that point in game. You guys occasional pop by on your/nof's mod, but you're never out actually playing on our servers so how could you possibly know which ones are good or bad?
We're only making this about MG, because this IS about MG. Instead of relaying to us any valid points, you just insult us and tell us we're being paranoid? What else are we supose to do. All we can see happening is "official dev server" - donated, ran, and pinned by MG. 1-2 pinned servers(X Server donates money + PureTremulous because MG has all individually done so much for tremulous so they deserve recognition.) and then servers we see as valuable such as AA or a server ran by someone like paradox left in the dust even though to the actual playerbase those are the servers we'd like to see at the top.
Obviously, in the end, the devs do what they want, and whining and bitching will only get us so far, but does that mean we shouldn't whine? We shouldn't want an explination to exactly what the plan are with these slots, how many there for sure should be, and who will get to take advantage of these pinned slots? We should just be like its okay, we'll just let whatever happens happen no matter how we see it effecting how we and new players will be impelled to play the game? A lot of us have issues with what you call "1.2" as well. We don't see Timbo or Stanum coming in and saying "MG Dev server(aka nof's mod) is 1.2" We only see Nosferatu and MG telling us its 1.2 and we don't agree, nor do we accept that as what 1.2 should be. We just see it as another mod or branch off as you see Tremfusion. So of course we're worried, because the only input we get from is MG, thats why we assume MG is calling the shots.... because they are....
Just to implify my point here. If you replaced MG with Tremfusion devteam, and "1.2" with "Tremfusion" and it was the identical situation. Most of us would still be just as pissed. We don't see how its fair for one group of people, from any stand point, have a right to tell us that their mod is 1.2 and the future of trem and that they will pin some servers, with no incite to whether or not we'll get any input on how those pinned servers will be decided.
You guys are just really good at not being active in game, not interacting with the players, and then making very vital game development decisions wihtout concuring to us any information or giving us any chance to input on it. I mean, sure we can go into the "1.2" thread and bitch all we want about the lack of balance and the changes we see wrong, but in the end its just Nosferatu's mod and we don't have the people(mostly timbo) who originally made tremulous telling us otherwise.
I think someone from MG even mentioned sometime that even though it was the "dev server" in the end Timbo could end up just scratching everything put into it and starting from scratch. That gave some of us hope, except for now, that didn't happen, we didn't even see input from Timbo. If he did tell you guys anything it was from behind the scene. Yet even though without us knowing his input, here is a near release of what we're told is 1.2.
:/
-
Hi. Refer to svn revisions ~1400 - 1800, where it officially became 1.2. That's Timbo's work, after reviewing, tweaking, and approving everything himself. Yes, he could have chosen to shelve it all. He chose to commit it instead.
Timbo and Norfenstein do in fact have the right to determine what is Tremulous 1.2, and they did. Before it was mgdev, TJW hosted the development/testing server. Then the price of his hosting went up and MG offered one for it instead.
-
Hi. Refer to svn revisions ~1400 - 1800, where it officially became 1.2. That's Timbo's work, after reviewing, tweaking, and approving everything himself. Yes, he could have chosen to shelve it all. He chose to commit it instead.
Timbo and Norfenstein do in fact have the right to determine what is Tremulous 1.2, and they did. Before it was mgdev, TJW hosted the development/testing server. Then the price of his hosting went up and MG offered one for it instead.
Okay, thanks.
I'll admit to not following svn as well as I should, but I also still stand by that I don't see any input to the community outside of some minor IRC stuff and svn from Timbo or most the other original devs, and as far as development goes its all mostly been MG. I also concur that MG has done a shitload more for this community than I ever have/will, but I still am not content with the direction 1.2 has taken and I am still not content with the featured server concept. If we were going to do any type of "featured" listing perhaps having the master sever categorize the servers in two different sections such as "Vanilla Servers" and "Gameplay Modified Servers" and then putting a star on official developer approved servers in both sections while still sorting by ping instead of putting specific servers in a pinned position.
I apologize for how agressive I came into this thread on top of being a bit uneducated in the events as well. I haven't been around for the past month or so activily because of moving and came back into this explosion of "1.2" and what not and just jumped right in over my head. Thank you for responding with a solid reply Lakitu instead of just calling me a paranoid retard.
Edit: One obvious problem with the vanilla/modified split is that there will be too much controversy over what is gameplay modifying and what isn't. Just one example being the feature share. Also 1.1 servers I would assume would be dumped straight into the Modified section if they even show up on the master server list.
-
Originally that's what everyone wanted to do -- have a way to split modified from not but there's two reasons why that's impossible, one of which you said:
1) It's difficult-impossible to agree on such a criteria
2) Once such a criteria is agreed upon, it is technically impossible to determine which server goes where automatically. There is absolutely no way to tell for sure remotely what code someone is running. For reasons why, scroll back some pages to a year or two ago when everyone was complaining about aimbots and proposing all sorts of impossible solutions.
Okay, so it's impossible to do designation of modified vs not by anything but humans. Even if you have a human go to every server and try to determine, it's still not possible -- many mods are not quickly apparent. This is accepted as a lost cause.
The biggest issue is still the new players, who need at least *one* place they know is unmodified to use as a frame of reference and *one* place where they can be just a little bit newbish without being berated or kicked for it. As the above, all we can do is create a small whitelist of servers. It is not practical or even possible to designate everyone. It is practical to set up a server or two in each corner of the globe for this purpose and give those the designation. This is what has and will be done.
Bissig seems to be the only one in here who realizes that we will have massive amounts of new players coming. There will be plenty to fill every existing good server and more. For the future of Tremulous, we as developers are seeing to it that these new players will have some place to learn how to play the game as it was designed, if they choose to use them, before going off into the highly-varying world that is the rest of the serverlist.
-
Well, then the idea of the official dev server being pinned isn't that distasteful to me, though I still don't like what is being called 1.2 I don't have much of a say in that matter. I would like to see just that dev server pinned, and not any other servers, or have other servers pinned through a community decision. As shown by the overwhelming posting going on in this and other threads, a lot of the community especially clanfolk are more involved and care more about the development of the game than most would like to adint. Just because most of us can't code doesn't mean we don't input and understanding of how the game works and what could drastacially effect it in good and bad ways.
-
Unfortunately the SNR is rather low, but there are some valid concerns:
- What is an official server? An official server is a server that the development team has complete control over. It is guaranteed not to differ from stock gameplay.
- What is a featured server? A featured server is a qualifying (see below) server that has been chosen to be featured.
- Will featured servers always be there or is there a chance for this to go away before 1.2?
There has been no decision if this will remain in final 1.2, and that's mostly cause we don't know how well it'll work, etc.
- Will the featured servers be populated? Part of the idea is to encourage people to play on them.
- Will the featured servers be sufficiently moderated? I am sure steps will be taken to ensure there are competent administrators online during peak usage times and servers that are particularly bad will not remain featured for very long. Obviously no guarantees can be made.
- What factors are used in determining whether a server qualifies to be featured? a.k.a., How can I get my server featured? No criteria have yet been officially agreed upon. One potential factor that has been mentioned is donations.
- Will high ping featured servers remain at the top of the list? Featured status is ignored for high ping (>200ms) servers.
- What is the difference between a featured server and any other server? The same as the difference between any two servers except that one has a star by its name and the other has not been officially vetted.
- How many featured servers will there be? There should be few enough that it is not an annoyance to skip featured servers on the list if you really want to. Any numbers would be premature and subject to change.
- Will there only be American featured servers? Ideally, there will be geographically disparate featured servers so that all players can play on (at least) one with acceptable latency.
Any errors here are purely my own, but I blame MG anyway.
-
I don't really have any objection to putting up the game.qvm of whatever is running on the official servers, but giving it official endorsement of the developers as a whole beyond just me, or putting it on trem.net, affects more than just me and would need to be discussed with others, so I can't answer right now.
Cool, thanks for that.
Okay, so it's impossible to do designation of modified vs not by anything but humans. Even if you have a human go to every server and try to determine, it's still not possible -- many mods are not quickly apparent. This is accepted as a lost cause.
Could servers themselves list the modifications to game play? Somewhat similar to how TF2 does it could potentially work. Basically they have a column which lists game play changes. They could include anything from "X mod" to "Increased BP, ESD". Probably too late for 1.2 now but perhaps something to consider for the next version.
- Will there only be American featured servers? Ideally, there will be geographically disparate featured servers so that all players can play on (at least) one with acceptable latency.
How will you choose admins for your servers in other countries? I'm not sure how many members of the dev team live countries outside of America (for instance Australia, Spain, etc).
Any errors here are purely my own, but I blame MG anyway.
I'm not exactly sure who apart from David is in MG but sure, let's blame them. Seems like the thing to do ;)
-
Unfortunately the SNR is rather low, but there are some valid concerns:
- What is an official server? An official server is a server that the development team has complete control over. It is guaranteed not to differ from stock gameplay.
- What is a featured server? A featured server is a qualifying (see below) server that has been chosen to be featured.
- Will featured servers always be there or is there a chance for this to go away before 1.2?
There has been no decision if this will remain in final 1.2, and that's mostly cause we don't know how well it'll work, etc.
- Will the featured servers be populated? Part of the idea is to encourage people to play on them.
- Will the featured servers be sufficiently moderated? I am sure steps will be taken to ensure there are competent administrators online during peak usage times and servers that are particularly bad will not remain featured for very long. Obviously no guarantees can be made.
- What factors are used in determining whether a server qualifies to be featured? a.k.a., How can I get my server featured? No criteria have yet been officially agreed upon. One potential factor that has been mentioned is donations.
- Will high ping featured servers remain at the top of the list? Featured status is ignored for high ping (>200ms) servers.
- What is the difference between a featured server and any other server? The same as the difference between any two servers except that one has a star by its name and the other has not been officially vetted.
- How many featured servers will there be? There should be few enough that it is not an annoyance to skip featured servers on the list if you really want to. Any numbers would be premature and subject to change.
- Will there only be American featured servers? Ideally, there will be geographically disparate featured servers so that all players can play on (at least) one with acceptable latency.
Any errors here are purely my own, but I blame MG anyway.
Thank you!
-
How will you choose admins for your servers in other countries? I'm not sure how many members of the dev team live countries outside of America (for instance Australia, Spain, etc).
There's a pretty even-ish split between Americans and Europeans actually. I'd be lying if I said Austrialia wouldn't be a bit of a challenge, though, if we end up having one.
-
Could servers themselves list the modifications to game play? Somewhat similar to how TF2 does it could potentially work. Basically they have a column which lists game play changes. They could include anything from "X mod" to "Increased BP, ESD". Probably too late for 1.2 now but perhaps something to consider for the next version.
You can't realistically send flags for every single server setting, and QVM changes are completely transparent to the server protocol. In the best case you can allow the servers to put some kind of info-string into the server list, but I guess this will soon degrade to pure advertising.
-
Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I meant. Anyway isn't listing the major changes to your server advertising anyway?
-
Could servers themselves list the modifications to game play? Somewhat similar to how TF2 does it could potentially work. Basically they have a column which lists game play changes. They could include anything from "X mod" to "Increased BP, ESD". Probably too late for 1.2 now but perhaps something to consider for the next version.
Can't force servers to list all/any modifications, they can lie and say there aren't any modifications that would put their server in the 'modified' category/list.
-
Could servers themselves list the modifications to game play? Somewhat similar to how TF2 does it could potentially work. Basically they have a column which lists game play changes. They could include anything from "X mod" to "Increased BP, ESD". Probably too late for 1.2 now but perhaps something to consider for the next version.
You can't realistically send flags for every single server setting, and QVM changes are completely transparent to the server protocol. In the best case you can allow the servers to put some kind of info-string into the server list, but I guess this will soon degrade to pure advertising.
there is the qvm_version cvar already that most modern qvm's already use it(should list qvm name and version eg: "Slackers QVM (Modname if any) (Lakitu7 5.5) 1.0 (compile date and time)" is what my QVM currently sets all that as) . the best place to see changes to a qvm is their homepage anyway listing the qvm name, version , what qvm its used as a base and whatever mod its running if any should be plenty information on any changes.
-
I like the idea of stickied servers, as long as server owners have a chance against the official servers and they are properly administrated.
As much as I love PT, I don't want to return to "Shit, guys, someone deconned, everyone stop. STOP. GODDAMNIT STOP. *Aliens win.*" ;)
As for the "mod" sort, there are ui.qvms(?) that do support that, but it would be largely ineffective for sorting out things like the "X mod" as the owner of the letter soup servers intentionally keeps his server listed as "base" so that there isn't a new subfolder for his server. (I don't get it either)
It would be interesting to keep the "sort by gametype" in the vms so that custom menu scripts could support it without vm downloads.
-
The reason is, we are not listening to the devs, we are listening to MG's. Tuple and you David, the two most active posters in here, are both not devs, and both are MG members. Yet you're apparently doing all the defending and explaining of whats going on, or just? uhm.. calling us all paranoid people? You guys jumped the line first telling us we were afraid of MG "taking over the world" and other bullshit like that, that we clearly were not intending.
we are only to assume that MG will be picking what those 1-2 servers will be not that we'll have any say in the matter.
We're only making this about MG, because this IS about MG. Instead of relaying to us any valid points, you just insult us and tell us we're being paranoid? What else are we supose to do.
Seriously, how do I put those sentences together into a coherent thought that I can wrap my tiny little brain around? David and I are NOT developers. We have NO SAY in official servers, gameplay changes, etc. Why would we be posting here? Why are you? Is it at all possible that we act of our own volition? Perhaps, just as many of you, David and I are just die hards...
I do apologize for not attempting to discuss valid points (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12123.msg179564#msg179564). I don't "relay", I speak my mind. That you and others apparently think that I'm a mouthpiece is your mistake, not mine.
I mean, when's the last time any reasonable activity was spent in game from Devs or MG or just Devs on the forum in general.
I play daily. I suspect you are really referring to Devs and the Devs who happen to be MG members. There are other MG members whom I suspect also play daily, we don't live in a commune though. Saying its a loose affiliation is actually true.
we don't get any interaction from MG-Dev's or other MG members either for that point in game. You guys occasional pop by on your/nof's mod, but you're never out actually playing on our servers so how could you possibly know which ones are good or bad?
See above. Actually I had admin on a popular server until just recently when it mysteriously vanished. I alias like hell though. I've even run severs as an alias where noone knows that its me running the server, even MG. I feel no obligation to report my activities to anyone. For a long time I changed my name daily. Through this I got a really good idea of how a lot of servers treat new blood. There are a few names that stick out in my mind though. SpiritHawk, CrankyFranky, Your little sister (love the kill messages for that one), Tango, elpuT...
You guys are just really good at not being active in game, not interacting with the players, and then making very vital game development decisions wihtout concuring to us any information or giving us any chance to input on it.
You can only be referring to development as I make no decisions. However above you include "MG Members" in game, but it seems that you are actually referring to devs. Is anyone seeing how it can become a joke within MG that people think we are the Illuminati? (stole that from IRC! :D )
MG is pretty much a bunch of nerds/geeks. People like that tend to get into server administration/coding/mapping/etc. Such people can be helpful to free software projects, and MG tends to try to be helpful in general. Doesn't seem unreasonable that MG members would be all over technical aspects of trem, as many members also take part in other things unrelated to trem. I just set up software raid on my home machine. The tricky part was getting my postfix instance to send through a gmail account so that if one of the HDs failed I would be alerted. I once took apart an ekg machine back when they where much larger, piece by glorious piece.
I apologize for this post, its gone a bit offtopic. Gets frustrating when I speak my mind and people think I'm a mouthpiece though.
-
I once took apart an ekg machine back when they where much larger, piece by glorious piece.
Pics?? pls pls
-
Can't force servers to list all/any modifications, they can lie and say there aren't any modifications that would put their server in the 'modified' category/list.
Sorry, perhaps I wasn't being clear enough. I don't mean force them to display all their changes but allow them a space in the server browser to highlight their major changes eg "FF on, Increased BP".
there is the qvm_version cvar already that most modern qvm's already use it(should list qvm name and version eg: "Slackers QVM (Modname if any) (Lakitu7 5.5) 1.0 (compile date and time)" is what my QVM currently sets all that as) . the best place to see changes to a qvm is their homepage anyway listing the qvm name, version , what qvm its used as a base and whatever mod its running if any should be plenty information on any changes.
Yeah, but I want to play a game of Tremulous and not read up about the list of changes that a QVM has made. Plus the server owner may have disabled some features of the QVM. having a little (ok probably not little) field where the server can list their major changes would help me decide on which server I'd like to play on.
-
Would be nice:
http://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3818
But is limited by:
http://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3687
Probably eventually but right now we have too many serverinfo variables and until we sort out that bug shouldn't add more.
-
Pics?? pls pls
Sadly, it was back in the days before digital cameras. There may be some kodak pics around in the mass of old photos that family members tend to hoard, but I won't pretend that I'm gonna go looking through them :)
-
Would be nice:
http://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3818
Yeah, pretty much what I meant. Actually I probably read that, forgot all about it and then went "wow, I have a great idea".
-
Would it help alleviate people's concerns if the client had a cvar that basically said "Show featured/stickied servers at the top"? I think that would remove most of this stupid bitching.
As for sorting by mod, why not have a column that would list the base dir? That seems pretty unambiguous, though it would not do anything about listing game configuration changes. For this purpose I'm considering a mod anything that downloads non-map pk3 files to the client. Any servers that do so that use "base/" should be blacklisted. As others have said, polluting base/ is not acceptable behavior.
-
I don't think the master server can do that automatically. Anyone some nice guidelines written up by the devs on what you should and shouldn't do with your mod would probably help with those matters. Plus some servers run stock standard Tremulous in a different base folder.
Would it help alleviate people's concerns if the client had a cvar that basically said "Show featured/stickied servers at the top"? I think that would remove most of this stupid bitching.
Not really because the devs would no doubt want it enabled by default but other people would want it disabled by default.
-
Would it help alleviate people's concerns if the client had a cvar that basically said "Show featured/stickied servers at the top"? I think that would remove most of this stupid bitching.
Not really because the devs would no doubt want it enabled by default but other people would want it disabled by default.
THAT is really quite a petty argument (coming from one against the stickied servers). Unless you had to unsticky them EVERY TIME you opened up the client, it'd be a minor annoyance to unsticky them.
The devs probably wouldn't go for this, though. There'd be no point in stickying their servers if they can be so easily ignored.
-
The sticky server are mainly aimed at newbies, and it stands to reason that newbies won't be unsticking them straight away.
The people who will tick that option are people who probably don't just click on the top server, and having them stuck or not probably wouldn't have any impact on where those player play.
IMO the max-ping-to-stick should be made into a cvar, which would also solve this (just set it to -1 or whatever)
Also I want an option to show favorites stuck to the top, for people who only have a few favorites. (With a separate max ping cvar)
Also be nice to have an "unstick if empty/full" cvar to unstick them, and a cvar to override if they show when empty/full. (Currently they follow the "hide empty" "hide full" tickboxes.)
Those cvars probably would need to be split for featured and favorites. /me spies a mega bit-field.