Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Caffeine on January 23, 2010, 12:50:25 am
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I began typing out a response on the FF on thread started by Liskey.
I then realized that What I felt needed to be said deserved it's own thread.
First and foremost let me say this, and I can't possibly emphasize it enough
"TREMULOUS IS A COMMUNITY PROJECT"
I have only been actively posting on these forums for a few short weeks. However I've read the development material for quite some time. Recently I decided that my opinions needed to be heard. I've been kicking and screaming about things like the new turrets, the fact that pounce has become the main damage source for goons, and several other things. I DO NOT EXPECT ALL OF MY IDEAS TO BE IMPLEMENTED, NOR ALL OF MY OPINIONS TO BE AGREED WITH! I'm not that egotistical. I'm not a pro player, I'm no wizard with code, I'm not the oldest player, I don't have all the best ideas. I am a tiny part of this large community, but I'm opinionated, and if this is the last post I'm ever able to make here I hope that it at least has an impact.
Dear Development Team:
First let me commend all your time and effort. That being said, I am very unhappy with some of the things I see. The main reason is that nothing is ever properly explained. The second reason is that it would seem that the developers have walled themselves off from the rest of us players. I play for hours on end every day, randomly throughout the day... sadly i have no life other than my girlfriend, school and trem. That makes it seem like they care more about the statistics than the feel of the gameplay. I rarely ever see anyone from the dev team playing.
Nobody from the dev team is giving reasons for the things being done other than "it's to balance and improve the game"
For example the FF thread started by Liskey. Norf responded to our comments but never gave a reason as to WHY FF needs to stay off, he only said
It will be in phase four if I don't feel that any other changes are necessary that would be significant enough to need more testing on their own. I think I'm satisfied with stamina and I don't expect the goon to need anything major, but I'm not sure what's going to happen with the flamer, and I'm thinking about something else that might be somewhat impactful.
Even after Ozzy's very pointed argument:
I think if you are going to change to testing with ff sometime, you should change it in the middle of a "phase" that you already find to be somewhat stable, so that you know what to change *before* the next phase has begun. Plus, if you start it at the beginning of another phase, and things don't turn out the way you thought, you will be left to wonder if it's the ff or something different that's throwing off the balance. In short, isolate the variable by adding it by itself rather than in a clump of other (shitty tremulous.h changes)stuff.
Nobody ever gave us a roadmap, or plan. Nobody has even told us when phase 4 is planned to happen other than "soon" and nobody said "this is why FF is going to stay off, and here is the logic behind this decision"
I'm not saying I'd necessarily agree with any explanation provided but at least there would BE one.
I see no coherent direction that the game is going. The changes being made seem terribly arbitrary to me. After all, with the smoke and mirrors we're given when we ask "why is this the way it is" it's very discouraging.
It seems like the community isn't allowed behind the closed doors of the development team's secret bunker. The community should not be an afterthought, but rather part of the ENTIRE development process. IMHO if you're not going to let us help decide where the game is headed, you might as well just start charging us a monthly fee and give yourselves a salary because that's not an open community, that's exactly like the developers at Microsoft Game Studios. Here's how they do it:Change things they want to change
Look at some statistics
Change some more things based solely on those statistics
Check the stats
Make more decisions without consulting the community that plays the game
I love this game. Hell I've spent more time on trem than any other game in my entire 19 years. I want to give back to the community as much as it's given me. I write stories, suggest new things, loudly and as often as I can I state my opinions and the logic behind them. I try to promote intelligent, active and skillful play as much as I can. If I had extra cash I'd donate gladly, I'd code if i knew how, I'd write official wiki entries or lore if I was deemed worthy.
I wish the devs were more open about their secret plans for this game, because as of now they might as well copyright trademark and lock up the code for the "Official" version of trem. because right now nobody but them knows the plan, and therefore it's not open to discussion.
Please stop being cloak and dagger about the planned additions/changes to trem in the next phase of the GPP so that people can have a voice about it.
My point in saying all this (tl;dr): I love this game, but I hate the fact that I can't see what's happening to it till it's already done and then I'm told "get used to it, stop complaining" when I've got an opinion to voice. I'd like to help better the community any way I can, even if it's voicing criticism about the devs.
Sorry guys, I just feel like you've let us all down especially in the communication department.
For Tremulous,
Caffeine
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Sorry guys, I just feel like you've let >>>me<<< down especially in the communication department.
fixed for ya. Dont for a moment think you represent this community. These guys are spending plenty of their own valuable time writing new code, and doing a bang-up job of trying to balance everything out. Your whiny "i deserve better" attitude is sickening.
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fixed for ya. Dont for a moment think you represent this community. These guys are spending plenty of their own valuable time writing new code, and doing a bang-up job of trying to balance everything out. Your whiny "i deserve better" attitude is sickening.
go away x server noob
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Sorry guys, I just feel like you've let >>>me<<< down especially in the communication department.
fixed for ya. Dont for a moment think you represent this community. These guys are spending plenty of their own valuable time writing new code, and doing a bang-up job of trying to balance everything out. Your whiny "i deserve better" attitude is sickening.
I DO NOT EXPECT ALL OF MY IDEAS TO BE IMPLEMENTED, NOR ALL OF MY OPINIONS TO BE AGREED WITH! I'm not that egotistical. I'm not a pro player, I'm no wizard with code, I'm not the oldest player, I don't have all the best ideas. I am a tiny part of this large community, but I'm opinionated, and if this is the last post I'm ever able to make here I hope that it at least has an impact.
Did you read all of his post, or could you only concentrate on the big red letters?
I think a lot of what he says is a bit ignorant, but now you are bashing him, when (as it seems so far) he set out to give his feedback to improve Tremulous. Maybe it's very useful advice, maybe it is, but he is trying, while you are just trying to insult him. Go away if you won't contribute and just want to flame.
Now, @ Caffeine, "Nobody from the dev team is giving reasons for the things being done other than "it's to balance and improve the game"
That seems like a good reason to me...?
Part of the reason they didn't announce when part 4 is coming out, is because (I would guess) they don't know themselves. When previous parts seem balanced, I guess they will move on.
Now, I agree, often times Tremulous development can appear confusing, convolted, and pretty hidden. BUT...
There is actually a fair ammount of things explained, check out the thread dedicated to questions like the ones you have --> http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11859.0 (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11859.0)
I would also mention that while the more they involve the community in their development the better, (from MY point of view, anyways) they are not obligated to, and may have good reasons for keeping certain things under the hood for periods of time.
One important thing is, I think you (and any devs) will get a lot more out of this thread if you mentioned specific things you were wondering about/ didn't understand, etc. There has been a TON of community feedback on 1.2, see the hundreds of threads, and know that there were many ingame, irc etc feedback that may have changed things you didn't see. So if there is some specific part that you would like made clear, it would be worth a lot more to everyone if you specifically mentioned those parts, not just the general idea of "they are hiding their work."
Also,
I love this game. Hell I've spent more time on trem than any other game in my entire 19 years. I want to give back to the community as much as it's given me. I write stories, suggest new things, loudly and as often as I can I state my opinions and the logic behind them. I try to promote intelligent, active and skillful play as much as I can. If I had extra cash I'd donate gladly, I'd code if i knew how,
So do those things, your reasons for not don't impress anyone. While again, you are not obligated to contribute something, you always are able to, (open source ftw), and I'd write official wiki entries or lore if I was deemed worthy.
Deemed worthy...? The entire point of a wiki is that anyone can contribute. (Barring specific scenarios, of course.)
Thanks.
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there was never really a lack of communication. ppl have known now for awhile 1.2 was being developed and were encouraged to play on the 1.1 dev server. devs even posted regularly scheduled dev matches on these very forums. problem is imo, people were to busy either playing 1.1 or just never really took the time to play in any dev games. nor did they supply any constructive feedback. we all just expected the devs to code 1.2 and itd be up to par with our expectations, which is highly unreasonable. anyway, just what i believe.
alot of people are being highly critical. these people do have lives outside of trem, jobs, school, and other commitments, lets not forget that. so expecting a timeline of everything that happens is just stupid. i order to move through phases you need data. devs have no control over this, so how do you expect them do give you a solid satisfactory answer? if you were here for the first beta, youd know that they followed a similar process and it turned out pretty great id say. have a little faith in the devs.
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"TREMULOUS IS A COMMUNITY PROJECT"
this isnt really true if trem was a community project everyone would have commit access
tremulous is the project of the trem devs we can only suggest changes(which i often do) they don't have to listen and if you have issues with how they do things tremulous is open source feel free to fork the project Tremfusion was going to head that route.
tbh i like 1.2 theres a few nagging balance issues but im sure theyll be fixed what is really needed though is more features like revert, cgame addon for voip(showing who is talking etc maybe port the voip bar to cgame too), fix for wallwalk bug, voice binds(ioquake3 has this ability will they be in final 1.2?), few more emoticons(wouldnt mind a green tick and a red cross could be useful to be used in some commands), fixes for server crash i have seen players on official server get booted for errors a few times sofar but no fix has been committed yet i hope those issues are being looked into.
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voice binds(ioquake3 has this ability will they be in final 1.2?)
If you mean vsays, those have been rumored forever.
Here (http://superpie.info/trem/vsays.jpg)
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voice binds(ioquake3 has this ability will they be in final 1.2?)
If you mean vsays, those have been rumored forever.
Here (http://superpie.info/trem/vsays.jpg)
yep i know TF wants to do a set but havent really heard much official from devs and they are not in the GPP who knows we might get em in official
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voice binds(ioquake3 has this ability will they be in final 1.2?)
If you mean vsays, those have been rumored forever.
Here (http://superpie.info/trem/vsays.jpg)
yep i know TF wants to do a set but havent really heard much official from devs and they are not in the GPP who knows we might get em in official
I was under the impression that that was a dev's picture. Anyways, here is a bunch of sounds from the website of developer Jex.
http://jex.vilkacis.net/trem/sounds/ (http://jex.vilkacis.net/trem/sounds/)
Of course, these are old, and who knows if they mean anything, but it's some proof for hope.
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http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12136.msg179732#msg179732
I don't know if they actually contacted him, but that's quite offtopic
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I just really wish they had a sort of "weekly update" or something. Saying things like "This is what we've done this week, this is our plan for next week" and better responses to people asking questions like "why has goon pounce become the main source of damage" instead of just "we decided that" or "for balance" I would like to know WHY not just that it's a balance thing. I KNOW it's a balance thing, but I want to know WHY they believe it will make balance better and why chomp wasn't just adjusted.
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Easy there... :D
I assume you've heard the saying "too many cooks spoil the broth". There are many ways to get to a balanced solution and they sure as hell can't all be done at the same time. Consider how many people would like to have their say as to which direction trem goes. Consider that some of their points will be very well thought out and make a heap of sense in isolation. The problem is it has to fit together... They need a coherent direction. That's where norfenstein comes in.
I just really wish they had a sort of "weekly update" or something. Saying things like "This is what we've done this week, this is our plan for next week" and better responses to people asking questions like "why has goon pounce become the main source of damage" instead of just "we decided that" or "for balance" I would like to know WHY not just that it's a balance thing. I KNOW it's a balance thing, but I want to know WHY they believe it will make balance better and why chomp wasn't just adjusted.
Raawr! I disurv to nuw! j/k. Seriously if you want to be in the loop you have to get plugged into the information. I'll leave it up to you to find it. You cant expect people to be writing you reports about what they are doing in their free time. Sorry to tell you this but you are not their manager ;)
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A possible reason for a seeming lack of answers is that people keep asking the same questions, and devs are tired of answering them... There really have been tens of threads on 1.2, and many are about the same few things. Also some people post before they get fully used to 1.2, before they learn to use the changes properly, thinking that something has been nerfed/buffed without thinking of the other changes that balance it out. Some roles of weapons/classes have changed, and if they try to play like it was 1.1, they'll fail, and then complain.
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Well i played 1.2 for about a month and had gotten used to the changes and new class roles.
Something else just happened in GPP-3, none of my binds accept binds work anymore.
If anyone knew me back in the days when I was just getting started, as a total newbie they know that I was a pretty chill guy who never really raged at anything.
I'm leaving trem, because all I do anymore is get mad. I'm sorry for my excessive rage over the past few months, it's only been getting worse and worse because of things that happen
Goodbye. Good luck to everyone.
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(http://www.caffeine-world.net/image-files/caffeine-curve.jpg)
try cutting down and see if that helps with ur inexplicable rage issues xD
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For example the FF thread started by Liskey. Norf responded to our comments but never gave a reason as to WHY FF needs to stay off
Was this really not good enough?
And regardless of whether most people prefer it one way, I'm going to try to make the game acceptable to people that have either opinion.
I really didn't think I had to justify trying to please everyone. Truth is, I personally prefer it off, and it's only because so many other people have the opposite opinion that I've gotten serious about making sure the game is good with it on too.
Even after Ozzy's very pointed argument:
I don't read the forums every day. I work more than 40 hours a week, so please allow a reasonable time frame for me to get to everyone. Sometimes I don't even reply immediately because I want to take the time to formulate a good response. See this (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12511.msg185466#msg185466) post for an example.
Nobody has even told us when phase 4 is planned to happen other than "soon"
Because nobody knows yet.
I just really wish they had a sort of "weekly update" or something. Saying things like "This is what we've done this week, this is our plan for next week"
I don't know about the other devs (because unlike what you might imagine, we don't get together for meetings to discuss action plans), but right now I hardly ever have anything interesting to say. I watch and play Tremulous until a decision about what to do next coalesces. And lately when I do begin to settle on what to change, I've been running my thoughts passed people in games and IRC before making the final decision.
and better responses to people asking questions like "why has goon pounce become the main source of damage" instead of just "we decided that" or "for balance" I would like to know WHY not just that it's a balance thing. I KNOW it's a balance thing, but I want to know WHY they believe it will make balance better and why chomp wasn't just adjusted.
I don't remember you ever asking me that, because if you had I probably would have just answered you (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12419.msg185162#msg185162).
In fact, I set up an entire thread (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11859.0) specifically so people could ask me about choices that were made. The development period that culminated in 1.2GPP was so long that I couldn't possibly remember the reason for every little thing, but I realized that many decisions would seem inexplicable without having followed along the whole time (which I wouldn't expect of anyone).
Sorry guys, I just feel like you've let us all down especially in the communication department.
Communication goes two ways. People that involve themselves in the development/testing process by playing on the official servers and talking with me here and on IRC know what's going on, and if they seem reasonably insightful and open-minded I listen to their advice. I had actually expected you to become such a person -- I only remember playing one game with you, but I was actually glad to see you since, from reading the forum, you seemed worth listening to. But that entire game all you did was complain, out of obvious frustration. So maybe it's good you're taking a break.
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(http://www.caffeine-world.net/image-files/caffeine-curve.jpg)
try cutting down and see if that helps with ur inexplicable rage issues xD
true that :(
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I can understand where caffeine is coming from almost the entire way through. As he said, I do not agree with all of it, but I do agree about the part where he said that 'devs are shutting the door to their secret bunker' or something like that. I agree one thousand and ten percent. They say 'iz too ficks balans adn gaemplaey.' However, as MANY people have stated, aliens are severely underpowered and have lost their pizzaz. Humans have had SOME nerfs, but the amount of buffs negates said nerfs. Aliens buffs are... cooler chooperz? and...mara zap+silent footsteps. Although the zap and footsteps are useless if you chain-sniped before you can get close enough to use these abilities.
tremulous most certainly IS a community project, and it is really disappointing to see the devs shutting doors. On almost every 1.2 topic, there has been very little developer input, and when they actually do give their 2 cents, its merely them telling us to shut up or that the topic is gay.
I don't hate the devs, I love trem. Not many people have the knowledge of what makes a good game to create something as amazing as tremulous. Trem 1.2 is still an amazing game, but it's slightly less amazing than 1.1. I just want to see the devs buckle the fuck down and work on 1.2 the way they should.
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I can understand where caffeine is coming from almost the entire way through. As he said, I do not agree with all of it, but I do agree about the part where he said that 'devs are shutting the door to their secret bunker' or something like that. I agree one thousand and ten percent. They say 'iz too ficks balans adn gaemplaey.' However, as MANY people have stated, aliens are severely underpowered and have lost their pizzaz. Humans have had SOME nerfs, but the amount of buffs negates said nerfs. Aliens buffs are... cooler chooperz? and...mara zap+silent footsteps. Although the zap and footsteps are useless if you chain-sniped before you can get close enough to use these abilities.
tremulous most certainly IS a community project, and it is really disappointing to see the devs shutting doors. On almost every 1.2 topic, there has been very little developer input, and when they actually do give their 2 cents, its merely them telling us to shut up or that the topic is gay.
I don't hate the devs, I love trem. Not many people have the knowledge of what makes a good game to create something as amazing as tremulous. Trem 1.2 is still an amazing game, but it's slightly less amazing than 1.1. I just want to see the devs buckle the fuck down and work on 1.2 the way they should.
aliens are underpowered because you suck, thats why you "THINK" they are underpowered. no one knows how to adapt. everyone bitching about 1.2 thinks that their 1.1 style of play will translate to 1.2. then when they realize its got a unique gameplay/style, which is fun. However, because they are constantly getting owned, they resort to excuses or they blame devs.
now im not trying to flame here, its just ALOT of people dont explain themselves properly. not only do you guys offer no legit complaints in terms of gameplay. "DUDE BRO, 1.2 SUCKS BECAUSE IT SUCKS OKAYYY MAN, LIKE LOOK AT IT JUST, PLAY IT FOR REALZ." if you cant think of anything legit to bring forth, along with some real constructive feedback, why bother posting?
you arent helping the cause with your constant bitching/complaining. you only further confuse the devs. tell them what YOU think is wrong, and some realistic ways of fixing the problem.
for those of you who think its a waste of time? dont think the devs will hear you out?
Anyway, there are definitely some tweaks needed.
- Stamina - huge problem. I should not be punished for being able to kill 2-3 goons in quick succession, but I am. After 2 goons, I no longer have enough stamina to avoid a dretch, which almost always results in my death because of stamina, not because I couldn't dodge well enough. This is not fun; in fact, it's very annoying. One of the devs said that realism wasn't a major concern for Tremulous development, so that shouldn't be the argument here. Since the stats seem to show that 1.2 is balanced more towards aliens (though that is very debatable), there shouldn't be a huge concern in overpowering humans - sprinting is not that quick against bigger aliens, after all, and dretches and basilisks should rarely charge head-on, anyway. In 1.1, I never experienced this problem, and I probably sprint less now than I did then. I also try to conserve my stamina as much as possible between fights (I always use toggleSprint, and I always toggle it off when I am not fighting). Please increase the stamina. Many other people I've played with agree - low stamina is too limiting.
- Goon pounce - I still disagree with this. Pouncing is much easier to do than chomping is; this is a case of making it too easy for new players to do well. It is very, very hard to dodge a good pouncer. I've just 1v1ed a good player in devmap on atcs, goon vs any s2 human. Pouncing was extremely easy, especially because of the range and the knockback. My opponent was hard to goon in 1.1; in 1.2, I believe he killed me only 3-4 times out of over 30. Dodge doesn't really help too much against pounce, either, considering the stamina issues. As an alien, chomping has a rather limited use. I survive far longer pouncing humans + dodging their shots at the same time than I do by chomping; I also try a lot less. I will admit that I'm still not used to the chomp range/width changes, so that is most likely a big factor with chomps, but that doesn't change how overpowered pounce is. Chomping takes much more skill than pouncing does, yet pouncing is almost as strong if not stronger than chomping is (taking into consideration speed, evasion and knockback as well as damage).
- Goon chomping - I have no problem with the width reduction; that part is good. In 1.1, it was too easy to *kind of* miss a human with a goon and still hit; that seems to have been fixed. However, the range nerf was just too much. Yes, I can still chomp with a goon if I just stay really close to a human, but that nerfs the goon's ability to dodge/fight multiple humans. Also, sometimes I stand directly in front of a still human (as in, a human just shooting and not moving), and just chomp (I'm pretty close to the human at this point), and it misses because of the range nerf. This just takes away the feeling of power I used to get when playing as a dragoon; now I just pounce instead.
- Marauders just feel slower. Maybe I need to jump differently, but they just feel much slower.
All of these gripes reflect a difference in philosophy, I suppose. I prefer a game in which what you can do is limited by your skill, not by nerfs in the game. 1.2 and Tremulous as a whole mostly support this preference, but these issues prevent it from being fully realized.
Thoughts?
AND NOW THE DEVS REPLY?
Well, the dust is beginning to settle for 1.2. I think we've all had a fair amount of time to adjust to the major changes, and, having let GPP phase two marinate for several weeks longer than phase one, I think we can trust that the statistics collected over this period more-or-less accurately reflect the genuine state of the game. And there's been an improvement.
Gameplay Changes for Phase 3
Second, a frequent complaint I've heard is that humans have too little stamina for sprinting and dodging. This hadn't really seemed like an issue to me, but I don't disagree with the negative feedback. See this (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12511.msg185466#msg185466) post if you want to know how I decided what to change.
- Reduced sprinting's drain on stamina 8 -> 6
- Changed the stamina threshold for jumping and dodging to the slowing threshold (-500) plus the cost of jumping or dodging (250 for both)
- Increased the stamina restoration rate for standing 25 -> 30
Lastly, the dragoon has probably been the biggest point of contention since the start of the 1.2 gameplay preview. I think everyone has had plenty of time to get used to the new bite range and it seems like a significant number of people still feel it's too short. Moreover, I've come to agree that in bigger games it does feel a little inadequate (my guess is because it's more important to be able to pivot between targets). I think a small change is warranted.
- Dragoon base chomp range increased 72 -> 80
The pounce, in contrast, seems to be considered by a lot of people to be overpowered. I don't necessarily agree that it's too overpowered, but I have felt for a while that it's slightly too hard to dodge -- mostly when the goon doesn't actually make contact with you, but flies past and hits you on the way. A range decrease (mechanically, the pounce works just like every other melee weapon) should make these attacks a little harder while having no impact on direct hits.
- Dragoon pounce range reduced 54 -> 40
There will be a GPP phase four. If none of the above changes turn out to be regressions my plan is to just turn on friendly fire on both servers and see what happens.
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If people aren't basing their feedback on 1.1 experience, then what are they to use? I thought 1.2 was supposed to be an improvement to 1.1. But instead, people are treating 1.2 like a entirely different game, just with the same models. You might as well give it a different name.
This whole 'u suck' rebuttal to any criticism to 1.2 is kind of strange how 1.2 is supposed to be easier for beginners. If the vets haven't adapted to 1.2, how do you think the beginners feel? It is contradictory to make humans more flexible and accessable then turn around a nerf aliens over and over. But hey now pounce does 100000000 damage!
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StevenM +1
If people aren't basing their feedback on 1.1 experience, then what are they to use? I thought 1.2 was supposed to be an improvement to 1.1. But instead, people are treating 1.2 like a entirely different game, just with the same models. You might as well give it a different name.
This whole 'u suck' rebuttal to any criticism to 1.2 is kind of strange how 1.2 is supposed to be easier for beginners. If the vets haven't adapted to 1.2, how do you think the beginners feel? It is contradictory to make humans more flexible and accessable then turn around a nerf aliens over and over. But hey now pounce does 100000000 damage!
You just totally missed the point. 1.2 requires different use of classes/weapons, the roles have changed. And you have forgotten how long it takes to become very good in 1.1. Not 20hours. Not 1 month. Usually even half a year is not enough. Aliens also received buffs: barb splash, basi grab and gas, trample, zap, granger and dretch speed, hives, and those are only what I can think of off the top of my head...
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If people aren't basing their feedback on 1.1 experience, then what are they to use? I thought 1.2 was supposed to be an improvement to 1.1. But instead, people are treating 1.2 like a entirely different game, just with the same models. You might as well give it a different name.
This whole 'u suck' rebuttal to any criticism to 1.2 is kind of strange how 1.2 is supposed to be easier for beginners. If the vets haven't adapted to 1.2, how do you think the beginners feel? It is contradictory to make humans more flexible and accessable then turn around a nerf aliens over and over. But hey now pounce does 100000000 damage!
Mhm. It seems as though the devs are making aliens stronger as a whole while nerfing their individual parts (but yes, one class has a super move, so it's balanced!), and doing the opposite for the humans?
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If people aren't basing their feedback on 1.1 experience, then what are they to use? I thought 1.2 was supposed to be an improvement to 1.1. But instead, people are treating 1.2 like a entirely different game, just with the same models. You might as well give it a different name.
This whole 'u suck' rebuttal to any criticism to 1.2 is kind of strange how 1.2 is supposed to be easier for beginners. If the vets haven't adapted to 1.2, how do you think the beginners feel? It is contradictory to make humans more flexible and accessable then turn around a nerf aliens over and over. But hey now pounce does 100000000 damage!
you obviously have yet to open the 1.2 stats webpage. i see many recognized players all within top 50 concerning scores. so people are adapting quite well id say. its just the few thick-headed people who refuse to open their minds that dont really find themselves owning noobs. 1.2 is supposed to be an improvement on gameplay, specifically addressing some balance issues brought upon us by earlier members of the community. How the fuck do you improve something if you dont address issues from the first release. which has clearly been done imo. if you disagree then give me one example, besides camping, which cant be difrectly addressed. as for overall difficulty level of the game, if you wanna fucking play an easy game, do me a favour, buy yourself a wii and never so yourself on a trem server or on these forums. lifes not easy, deal with it. yeah pounce does more damage, its called dodging or using your surroundings, ie a corner to out maneuver the goon.
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"TREMULOUS IS A COMMUNIST PROJECT"
huh?
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words
What are you saying?
I didn't mention alien balance in my post. Why are you bringing them up and not humans?
if you disagree then give me one example, besides camping, which cant be difrectly addressed. as for overall difficulty level of the game, if you wanna fucking play an easy game, do me a favour,
Norf is the one that has stated that he wanted tremulous to be more beginner friendly, not me.
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well. humans are a bit more friendly. but aliens will always take some time to learn. ive said this like 3 different times. just create a tutorial vid that runs upon installation explaining the know-hows, do's and donts and basic tactics. but no one listens to me so whatever lol.
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but no one listens to me
*Camera Fade In
*We see Winnie The Pooh walking along whistling to himself.
Change to camera #8.
*We can hear Pooh Bear humming his theme song, as the camera zooms in for a medium level close-up.
Winnie The Pooh: ..is his friend. And Kanga, and little Roo. There's rabbit and pig-
Young boy: AUUGH!
Winnie The Pooh: ...?
Through a house window, we see a young boy yelling profanities and calling down voodoo curses on his computer, repeatedly mooning it and stabbing it. The boy ties a knife to his buttocks, and does both simultaneously. To the side of the computer, we see a small cord, which we assume is the modem dial-up cord. The cord has been cut, tied together, cut, and tied together again many times, insinuating that the young boy has been gnawing his internet connection cord with his teeth.
Winnie The Pooh: Are you alright?
Young Boy: These idiots! Fools! They know nothing! NOTHING!
Winnie The Pooh: What's the matter?
Young Boy: I tried to warn them, but would they listen? NO. AND NOW, THEY REAP THE JUDGMENT THAT THEY HAVE BROUGHT UPON THEMSELVES! DOOMED!! ALL OF THEM! DOOMED!
*By now, the camera has moved into position so that you can see the french flags positioned in various triumphant poses around the room. It is clear now that the young boy is wearing a beret.
Winnie The Pooh: You aren't french by any chance, are you?
Young Boy: Viva La Vida!
Winnie The Pooh: Knowing the album of a coldplay cd doesn't make you french..
*The young boy is distracted by a notification on his computer, and proceeds to type out a response with his face.
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words
I didn't mention alien balance in my post
Yes you did. Here:
It is contradictory to make humans more flexible and accessable then turn around a nerf aliens over and over. But hey now pounce does 100000000 damage!
My opinion: Don't bother arguing with temple. He's a proven retard and doesn't know how to play, and bases his arguments on some fantasy, not real life tough guy balls deep TREMULOUS.
In addition, I think the dev team is doing a good job in terms of communication. I'm barely active these days, and I still hear a lot about 1.2. If you expect respect, give respect, not constant, baseless criticism.
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To address the actual point of the thread...
I know people have invested a lot of time into 1.2 and blah blah blah. That doesn't mean that it is above criticism, that it is balanced, or that the changes were even a good idea in the first place. If you want people to be open minded to the changes you must be open minded to their criticism. To think all feedback is going to be positive is immature.
Feedback can go either way but people just rebut with .
The problem I have the devs is the fact that some changes are being rebalanced for 1.2. If you are changing the changes, then obviously something is wrong with what you are doing. You lose credibility when you dismiss criticism then turn around do the same thing that people asked you to do.
I think that once the modifications began, the devs figured that they would change some other stuff too. But actual need or problem these extra changes are meant to address haven't been discussed. What you end up with is one day....goon pounce deals 1000 damage. When or where was that ever intended? You have reasons, of course, but how did we end up in this situation in the first place? That's what makes me resent some of the patch because I and others have repeatedly said 'why are you changing this?' Its like you are creating problems just to fix them. That's not balance, its being stubborn.
Where do we go from here? I think the devs need to actually make a case for why somethings need to be changed. Some things make sense, other things are just cool ideas someone cooked up. These new ideas have to be balanced and it complicates the process needlessly when you can just resist the temptation to experiment. Stick with what works, change what didn't. Anything else creates a different experience that some people, like me, just don't like. Oh, I understand why things are changing. But some things just aren't fun now that they are a part of the game.
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I actually agree with temple here. Vets are struggling with 1.2, so how are beginners going to handle it? I do agree that 1.1 takes a very long time to get good at, but 1.2 takes even longer, and the fun-factor has been slightly dulled, so it's not even worth the time of playing for so long in order to get good.
And for people bitching about people bitching without good reasons, I have this to say:
STOP YER BITCHING!! THERE'S PLENTY OF GOOD REASONS! MANY ARE LISTED IN THIS FUCKING THREAD!!
But instead, people are treating 1.2 like a entirely different game, just with the same models. You might as well give it a different name.
If the vets haven't adapted to 1.2, how do you think the beginners feel? It is contradictory to make humans more flexible and accessable then turn around a nerf aliens over and over.
Also, go scan the forums, there's billions of reasons why people prefer 1.1.
I'm almost certain that anyone who says 1.2 is shit, is mentally retarded. It's a really fucking good game. It's just not as good as 1.1, so most people still choose to play 1.1. THIS is the issue.
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ok if there are so many reasons. then give me some? it shouldnt be difficult. why would i go scan the forums. i enjoy both games. i prefer 1.2 because its refreshing and more competitive. it is similar to 1.1, yet unique in its own way, which is what should have been expected. it isnt a whole new game, if you think so, youre a moron. gameplay has changed yes, but at the core, trem is still trem.
the majority of people still play 1.1 because they are mindless noobs who dont even know what 1.2 is. these are also the people who come in-game building trappers on the ground and base nading. so if you want em, you can have em as far as im concerned.
temple you say that we should be open minded to criticism, not bitching and whining. if you want to crticize, then give some opinions on the gameplay and balance. not on the devs communication, thats all bullshit. threads like these are just stupid.
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the majority of people still play 1.1 because they are mindless noobs who dont even know what 1.2 is.
Very strong opinion, but totally incorrect. Many of really good players checked 1.2 and prefer 1.1. One of main reasons : balance changed for 'more noob-friendly'. We gonna get same situation like years ago, i think. Half of server players will be in spectators, crying 'some1 join aliens please! i wanna be human!'. Oh, ye... i dont like 1.2 term too. Tons of easy-to-do ideas and opinions was posted on this forum. Many bugs found. And instead of working on such things we working on 'let nubz be happy' things. I dont like this but i agree that devs can decide by themself. Only i can say - we waiting for full 1.2 release and preparing some patches for it. After full release we will start some 1.2 servers with '1.1 mode' mod implemented. Ye, and we fixing errors, and adding features. We also trying make Trem better. And I still think that if devs decide in future apply some community mods to main game it would be good.
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youre missing my point. im saying there are more players on 1.1 as of right now due to a majority of them being younger kids who dont even have a forum account. thus they have no idea about 1.2. good players dont make up a majority of tremulous. crazy pollacks due. plus many of those really good players youre talking about probably didnt even play 100 games. yeah....thats really opening your mind and try to fully experience something before you knock it.
and again with your stupid fucking criticism. what nubz be happy things are you talking about, youre a fucking tool dude. rant was overpowered, fixed. goon was overpowered, fixed. mara needed adjusted, done. basi needed more purpose, purpose. humans obviously needed something more, A NEW, YET TOTALLY UNDER-USED DODGE FEATURE, check. luci needed some changes, when i saw a luci in 1.1 i couldnt help but laugh because i knew it was dead. i could probably solo a luci with nearly any class. pulse and flame were never used, so again purpose.
so again please enlightment me, because most of the stuff ive mentioned were complained about for 2 years after stand alone. i think the devs took a very logical approach to things and made sensible changes. again ive backed up my ideas and opinions with facts in terms of the gameplay and balance. what did you do, you acted like a moron "let nubz be happy". thats deep, really deep, pretty much summarizes 1.2...........
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profanity. rage less, please?
To be clear, for AppleJuice's idiotic (D:) sake..
StevenM, you're bitching about underused (but perfectly viable in good hands) weapons in 1.1, yet you seem to point out that one of the human changes is.. Uhh.. Underused, however viable it is.
humans obviously needed something more, A NEW, YET TOTALLY UNDER-USED DODGE FEATURE, check.
Please, do extrapolate on how the rant and goon were overpowered, how the mara needed adjusting, and why the basi's purpose was scammed directly from another alien?
Yes, 1.2 was a bit broken, but no one's explained quite why these changes were made. Why does goon barb have splash damage? I had an easy enough time sniping before. Why can't dretches hit turrets anymore? Because they can't hit dretches? Doesn't that make them pretty useless in early game? Doesn't that, I dunno, promote camping? Why can the tyrant all of a sudden crush? Is that just a cool feature that someone thought of? That's pretty impractical, if you ask me. Yes, the devs have told us why they made changes, but not why they chose to make these specific changes. Yada yada blah blah blah.
The majority of people who play 1.2 are going to be mindless noobs who don't even know what 1.1 is.
I actually agree with temple here. Vets are struggling with 1.2, so how are beginners going to handle it? I do agree that 1.1 takes a very long time to get good at, but 1.2 takes even longer, and the fun-factor has been slightly dulled, so it's not even worth the time of playing for so long in order to get good.
We "vets" have a tough time adapting to 1.2 because we're trying to play it like 1.1. Tell the truth, I don't like how it's so very different, but it makes sense that we're having a tougher times than newbs will, as we've got to unlearn 1.1 before we can begin to learn 1.2. I've said this before. Until we get our influx of newbs, we won't know how it plays. This'll be post-release.
I think a big issue with these gameplay tests is that the majority of the testers (us, the community, the oldfags) are way too used to 1.1 to effectively play 1.2. A newcomer, yes, would suck, but after getting over the learning curve would begin his path to clan level gaming. Us, on the other hand, basically have to unlearn 1.1 just to start learning 1.2. It'll be a lot easier to build well and play well if we didn't have these old habits hardcoded into our systems. Not sure how games are going to go once 1.2 gets it's large influx of the dreaded Release: Day/Week/Month One Newbies, but I think that'll be the true test of balance (post final version, unfortunately [barring, obviously, the common 1.2.x bug fixes & minor patches]).
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wisdom
typical spam
Edit: Your post is very ironic. :} Mostly because most of your points have already been addressed, which is most likely why the devs aren't responding anymore (I don't even think this is true, but for the sake of argument, let's assume so). If I'm barely active and have read their responses regarding these questions, there's really no excuse (especially for the dretches & turrets comment). What I will say is that if you don't already know why the 1.1 tyrant is overpowered, you are not a "vet." You're simply someone who went through the motions of playing Tremulous without thinking about it, and while that is a perfectly valid way to play, that doesn't make your opinions correct (especially about tyrants).
Also, it's really ironic that Plague Bringer, of all people, is flaming someone for losing their temper and using profanity, when that's his trademark style of posting.
Ok, electromagnetism lab time
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AppleJuice why don't you donate?
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AppleJuice why don't you donate?
Read this. (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12759.msg188299#msg188299)
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Edit: Your post is very ironic. :} Mostly because most of your points have already been addressed, which is most likely why the devs aren't responding anymore (I don't even think this is true, but for the sake of argument, let's assume so). If I'm barely active and have read their responses regarding these questions, there's really no excuse (especially for the dretches & turrets comment). What I will say is that if you don't already know why the 1.1 tyrant is overpowered, you are not a "vet." You're simply someone who went through the motions of playing Tremulous without thinking about it, and while that is a perfectly valid way to play, that doesn't make your opinions correct (especially about tyrants).
Also, it's really ironic that Plague Bringer, of all people, is flaming someone for losing their temper and using profanity, when that's his trademark style of posting.
Ok, electromagnetism lab time
If I recall correctly, dretches were nerfed because they were too good against these turrets, which sort of implies to me that these turrets suck. If the intent of these turrets was to let smaller aliens inside hbase, I think that that certainly begs for people to camp on maps where not all angles can be covered.
Yes, 1.1 rants were op. BUT, did they NEED health and regen nerfs to make them balanced? A lot of the changes seem like they're fixes and addons to not-so-good changes. This makes them, largely, arbitrary seeming.
Anyway, I've bought, built, bit, and have been bitten plenty in 1.1 to recognize what's imba. Goons @ s1? imba. Rant range/width? imba. Rant health+regen/regen+health (whichever order, and it does matter)? imba. Yes, I understand all of this. Extra points for nitpicking and demanding explanations of arguments.
Ramble ramble.
That's all. (:
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(http://www.goenglish.com/GoEnglish_com_1DontLookAGiftHorseInTheMouth.gif)
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I approve of this thread.
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What stuns me is the same people that played and/or made 1.1 have made it forbidden to compare the two patches.
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What stuns me is the same people that played and/or made 1.1 have made it forbidden to be retarded
ya
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What stuns me is the same people that played and/or made 1.1 have made it forbidden to compare the two patches.
Temple, even though I have no power over the SVN repository, I hereby forbid you to view whichever two patches of the ~500 commits created during the mgdev merge to which you have referred.
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From reading these posts, the 1.2 supporters are as close-minded as the 1.1 supporters. :(
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From reading these posts, the 1.2 supporters are as close-minded as the 1.1 supporters. :(
Please back up your statement.
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Well... as much as I usually support 1.2 side of arguments... this thread has pretty much devolved into a buch of shit. "You are retarded." etc. Both sides seem to have given up trying to discuss and just insult each other. (Although I admit from reading these threads, if I tried to argue with Temple for a long time I would be very tempted to cuss him out too.)
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As for turrets, I believe it's quite too late to say that they suck, should be reverted/changed/etc. as they were here for like 2 years? People who participated in planned dev games got used to them, you surely can too. Changing something as major will just result in another year of waiting, and wasting last 2 years (not to mention that Norfenstein already stated that he won't do any major changes now).
If I recall correctly, dretches were nerfed because they were too good against these turrets, which sort of implies to me that these turrets suck. If the intent of these turrets was to let smaller aliens inside hbase, I think that that certainly begs for people to camp on maps where not all angles can be covered.
That's great if they decide to camp, rets won't help them and dretches will have their job easier (barely moving human = easy meat).
And you miss one thing - humans seem to camp less (actually it's really rare to see entire human team camping) than in 1.1 which I guess was the point.
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Its complicated. The point I think is that some changes in 1.2 have nothing to do with balance. Goon pounce was a secondary attack in 1.1. Goon pounce is now a primary attack 1.2. That isn't a balance issue. That wasn't a problem with 1.1. That's just an stylist change. It was Norf's opinion that pounce should now deal more damage and be more useful in combat than chomp. I disagree.
So, for some of the argument around 1.2, people are just arguing about opinions. But when you throw in balance issues, it becomes unclear what the real problem is and what the solution should be.
What confuses me about the whole thing is I and pretty much everyone else here played 1.1 and played goons and like the way goons worked. So, why was it necessary to change something popular for stylistic reasons? I can see changing it for balance. But its like the New Coke or New Pepsi for 90's. Why try to improve something that was already good enough? Then on top that, it complicates balance because the new change was untested until now. It just making things complicated for complicated sake.
And people want to make it out be a skill issue but really, I just don't like playing goons when you have to pounce all the time. The issue is bigger than just pounce...stuff like with repeaters makes no sense to me either. But the point of this post is to say that people aren't just bitching to bitch. Something things are stylist changes and liking a particular style is an opinion. People can have different opinions.
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Look here (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12811.0) for a much more meaningful take on this subject.
(You can click 'here (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12811.0)', really!)
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Welcome back Commander!
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b368/Blessed_Silence/crofty1.png) (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=7767.msg118240#msg118240)
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and again with your stupid fucking criticism. what nubz be happy things are you talking about, youre a fucking tool dude. rant was overpowered, fixed. goon was overpowered, fixed. mara needed adjusted, done. basi needed more purpose, purpose.
May be im not so unbelivable pro, but i know many such players. Players, who using only lisks and rule by lisks. Players, who can take down average tyrant with shotgun. Its seems you just not much expirenced with humans, thats all. With 1.1 balance you can shoot down standart goon with 4 shots easily (if you're moving wisely and aiming good). And its 1 vs 1. Trem 1.1 balanced if you really know how to play using both races. If you prefer sit on turrets 'cauz "scary rants over there" and loosing - then i dont think you can really decide about "overpowered" stuff. I playing weekly russian tournament over 2 months. All I can see - teamplay, skill and attacking rule. Not "who joined aliens - win". You can say everything you want, time will show us who was right.
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If I recall correctly, dretches were nerfed because they were too good against these turrets, which sort of implies to me that these turrets suck. If the intent of these turrets was to let smaller aliens inside hbase, I think that that certainly begs for people to camp on maps where not all angles can be covered.
That's great if they decide to camp, rets won't help them and dretches will have their job easier (barely moving human = easy meat).
And you miss one thing - humans seem to camp less (actually it's really rare to see entire human team camping) than in 1.1 which I guess was the point.
Again, from what I've seen, 1.2GPP is played with (for the most part) competent, experienced players. We'll see camping when we get the kids who are new to the whole concept of Tremulous. This GPP is biased.
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Welcome back Commander!
The rank of commander is indicated by three buttons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfleet_ranks_and_insignia#The_Next_Generation.2C_Deep_Space_Nine.2C_and_Voyager"). Please turn in your geek card.
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If I recall correctly, dretches were nerfed because they were too good against these turrets, which sort of implies to me that these turrets suck. If the intent of these turrets was to let smaller aliens inside hbase, I think that that certainly begs for people to camp on maps where not all angles can be covered.
That's great if they decide to camp, rets won't help them and dretches will have their job easier (barely moving human = easy meat).
And you miss one thing - humans seem to camp less (actually it's really rare to see entire human team camping) than in 1.1 which I guess was the point.
Again, from what I've seen, 1.2GPP is played with (for the most part) competent, experienced players. We'll see camping when we get the kids who are new to the whole concept of Tremulous. This GPP is biased.
You should play on euro server :)
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Yes, 1.2 was a bit broken, but no one's explained quite why these changes were made. Why does goon barb have splash damage? I had an easy enough time sniping before. Why can't dretches hit turrets anymore? Because they can't hit dretches? Doesn't that make them pretty useless in early game? Doesn't that, I dunno, promote camping? Why can the tyrant all of a sudden crush? Is that just a cool feature that someone thought of? That's pretty impractical, if you ask me. Yes, the devs have told us why they made changes, but not why they chose to make these specific changes. Yada yada blah blah blah.
This is basically what I'm taking away from this whole thread: people didn't ask me questions about things and are now mad that I didn't explain those things to them. Seems an awfully lot like looking for something to complain about.
turrets--;
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anyway his opinion is invalid because he sucks at both 1.2 and 1.1, yet hes been playing for 3 years. im done trying to open people up to 1.2.
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anyway his opinion is invalid because he sucks at both 1.2 and 1.1, yet hes been playing for 3 years. im done trying to open people up to 1.2.
Congratulations, you have earned one (1) buttrape from Paradox!
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I've actually found that I can own in 1.1 and 1.2 as both humans and aliens. I prefer the 1.1 setup, though. I will miss it.
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This is basically what I'm taking away from this whole thread: people didn't ask me questions about things and are now mad that I didn't explain those things to them. Seems an awfully lot like looking for something to complain about.turrets--;
1.2 reverses a lot of the design thinking in 1.1. Example: Both teams got 100 (or 101) bp. The game was balanced around that fact. That was vanilla tremulous. Server operator could as they chose. Now aliens get 100+ bp and repeaters cost but get free structures.
Am I allowed to complain about the fact that aliens have to risk an egg (and feeding/spawn camping) to extend their base and humans don't?
Trust me, I know what you are going to say before you say it. And its a cop out. The absolutely unquestionably balanced solution (to something that isn't even neccessary) would to make the booster provide its own creep. But see, then aliens would get a booster for 12 bp and not 22 (which is the real cost of a forward booster) and humans don't (which a forward ret in 1.1 cost a whopping 8 bp and in 1.2....wait for it...12 bp...the same as a booster) and OMG THE STATS LOOK AT THE STATS ALIENS WIN MORE OH SHIIIIIII
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This is basically what I'm taking away from this whole thread: people didn't ask me questions about things and are now mad that I didn't explain those things to them. Seems an awfully lot like looking for something to complain about.turrets--;
1.2 reverses a lot of the design thinking in 1.1. Example: Both teams got 100 (or 101) bp. The game was balanced around that fact. That was vanilla tremulous. Server operator could as they chose. Now aliens get 100+ bp and repeaters cost but get free structures.
Am I allowed to complain about the fact that aliens have to risk an egg (and feeding/spawn camping) to extend their base and humans don't?
Trust me, I know what you are going to say before you say it. And its a cop out. The absolutely unquestionably balanced solution (to something that isn't even neccessary) would to make the booster provide its own creep. But see, then aliens would get a booster for 12 bp and not 22 (which is the real cost of a forward booster) and humans don't (which a forward ret in 1.1 cost a whopping 8 bp and in 1.2....wait for it...12 bp...the same as a booster) and OMG THE STATS LOOK AT THE STATS ALIENS WIN MORE OH SHIIIIIII
Actually, 1.1 was designed around the idea that marauders and maybe more were fast, and not that both teams had the same number of build points. The developers are trying to ruin the game, man! They just don't want us to know. BTW, 1.2 is now balanced around the idea that tyrants should not be able to claw humans. yes both teams got 101bp. The stats are supposed to lie, but look at them, and humans are OP.
Aliens have to risk building eggs and stuff 'cause when they get 50 more bp and humans get free turrets to go next to repetears, they have to spread them out, but eggs can easily die, and then all the acid tubes and everything next to the egg blows up, and stuff! Human queue is really fast so repeaterds dying doesn't matter. Yes, boosters or hives providing their own creep as do eggs do would balance the game very much, and even then after many games and later, but then aliens are overpowered and win many more times! nob devs. The game was perfectly balanced and needs no more gameplay changes
This guy has very pointful arguments with sustaining logic and stuff when it comes to 1.1:
< CIA-46> tremulous: * increased tyrant repeat 750 -> 800
< thisguy> that's bull cuz it just happens that the last tyrant can kill all the remaining humies. even if there are no eggs, there will be no nodes soon, as well as no humans, but ONLY if the humies don't get instantly4 stormed with new recruits
but no! we people need to have more say in changes, because we know what we're talking about!
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i dont see how the whole repeator/booster issue is vaild. what is more useful in terms of gameplay. having some forward rets, leaving your main base less defended. or have a forward booster, allowing you to regen faster and thus constantly keeping rushing the opponent. its a trade off you see. this is the kind of retardness i was flaming about. you guys are very one sided. like norf said, literally looking for complaints and excuses. you simply love to hate 1.2 because its different.
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i dont see how the whole repeator/booster issue is vaild. what is more useful in terms of gameplay. having some forward rets, leaving your main base less defended. or have a forward booster, allowing you to regen faster and thus constantly keeping rushing the opponent. its a trade off you see. this is the kind of retardness i was flaming about. you guys are very one sided. like norf said, literally looking for complaints and excuses. you simply love to hate 1.2 because its different.
I made a perfectly valid point. Its not retarded just because you so. A trade off is a trade off but the cost of a forward booster is not balanced to the cost of a forward ret (or medi).
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First of all: everyone who says vets have a hard time getting used to 1.2: speak for yourself. I got used to it in less then 20 hours. I had read about the changes and knew how to build in 1.2 before I took a ckit.
The rets were changed to make human camp less effective, so aliens could still get kills, and so that smaller classes could actually damage the base. Dretches damaging turrets was removed, because it was overpowered that way. Both of those changes were required to balance things out. Barb splash = more effective against cramped bases.
Players, who using only lisks and rule by lisks. Players, who can take down average tyrant with shotgun.... With 1.1 balance you can shoot down standart goon with 4 shots easily (if you're moving wisely and aiming good)...... If you prefer sit on turrets 'cauz "scary rants over there" and loosing - then i dont think you can really decide about "overpowered" stuff. I playing weekly russian tournament over 2 months. All I can see - teamplay, skill and attacking rule. Not "who joined aliens - win".
Lisks shouldn't be just for 3-4 players in the entire Tremulous community. If you can take down a rant with shotgun, CONSISTENTLY not just once, then the rant sux. If you get to shoot 4 (or usually you need more) shots in the goon, and the goon doesn't tear your head off or just pounce away first, then the goon wasn't very good. It doesn't matter WHY someone camps, what matters is that they can camp for half an hour without losing and thus make the game boring.
Both teams got 100 (or 101) bp. The game was balanced around that fact. That was vanilla tremulous. Now aliens get 100+ bp and repeaters cost but get free structures.
...The absolutely unquestionably balanced solution (to something that isn't even neccessary) would to make the booster provide its own creep. But see, then aliens would get a booster for 12 bp and not 22 (which is the real cost of a forward booster) and humans don't (which a forward ret in 1.1 cost a whopping 8 bp and in 1.2....wait for it...12 bp...the same as a booster)
Well 1.2 ain't 1.1, so no more 100bp for both teams. And less similarity between teams = better. And you just proved you don't have a clue how 1.2 repeaters work.
We need some sort of stat other then karma, which only devs can change, that shows how many times people have: overly exaggerated/talked bullshit/about things they don't understand. And then ban the top 5-10 from commenting on 1.2.
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1.2 repeaters work.
We need some sort of stat other then karma, which only devs can change, that shows how many times people have: overly exaggerated/talked bullshit/about things they don't understand. And then ban the top 5-10 from commenting on 1.2.
Abuse!
Temple: Repeaters cost 4bp, give power to a small area, and work off a completely seperate bp pool than the reactor. A forward base only takes 4bp away from hmain.
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1.2 repeaters work.
We need some sort of stat other then karma, which only devs can change, that shows how many times people have: overly exaggerated/talked bullshit/about things they don't understand. And then ban the top 5-10 from commenting on 1.2.
Abuse!
Temple: Repeaters cost 4bp, give power to a small area, and work off a completely seperate bp pool than the reactor. A forward base only takes 4bp away from hmain.
yes but you have forgetten the fact that aliens still risk building eggs. But, irregardless, humans need to be able to actually rush, but when aliens have 207 bp then they will rush slowly because aliens are attacking and they need to camp and not rush to win. But then aliens are more spammy and they will risk building eggs. dcs are just useless like they should be.
Then you also need to take into account the speed of aliens, but they are fast, so you can't balance just by looking at statistisc and go "Hey, aliens are winning 200 games but humans only did won 10 games, aliens are op!" because you can't balance like that
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Temple: Repeaters cost 4bp, give power to a small area, and work off a completely seperate bp pool than the reactor. A forward base only takes 4bp away from hmain.
I know that. Eggs cost 10 bp and can be used to feed or spawn camp. Both regen something, eggs/boosters make creep to regen aliens, repeaters regen energy weapons. A forward booster increases damage, a forward ret can defend a point. My point is simply, the only drawback to a forward repeater is 4 less bp. Eggs are far riskier, even if aliens have 150 bp to attempt to cover the bp price difference. And even then, aliens have to pay more for a defense structure on top of that (which only hives can really compete in the defense category and they cost the same as a booster). So, once again, it is tilted so humans get more benefit from the bp/repeater change than the aliens.
My whole point is that I or others aren't just complaining to complain. This is a legitimate issue that people handwave or make cop-out rebuttals to because they don't want to hear any criticism.
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THE BACON IS READY
I hope I've made myself clear if I haven't yet at this point.
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I think lowering the powerless structure life/raising the creepless structure life would solve the majority of that issue?
Things without power sit there forever and it's really easy to build a new repeater in time, however, a creep goes down and that forward booster etc goes down in literally seconds.
I think a full 60 seconds either way would work best for me. Of course make tubes with no creep nearby de-activated so they don't do anything, but they don't need to pop apart so fast, especially with the slow BP que rate.
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Aliens have moving booster known as lisk which allow them to "constantly keeping rushing" humans base without spending any bp, while humans simply cant do than. Not to metion, that it's far easier for alien to kill ret/repeater than for human to kill egg/booster. On the other hand forward booster is available at s2 while you can build forward medi right away.
Differences between teams make Tremulous interesting.
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I don't know about the other devs (because unlike what you might imagine, we don't get together for meetings to discuss action plans), but right now I hardly ever have anything interesting to say. I watch and play Tremulous until a decision about what to do next coalesces. And lately when I do begin to settle on what to change, I've been running my thoughts passed people in games and IRC before making the final decision.
OK, I understand this, and I really don't know the state in which the current client and server are for 1.2 but I have one question (phrased different ways for understanding and emphasis). If you guys are making decisions about how the things are going and where to go next do you know when to stop for 1.2? Is there a point in your collective minds where you have nominated "That's for the next version"? Have you set limits to this development cycle? Or rather have you made an unconscious decision to stop when you feel it's right? Are you going to stop development when you all feel that it's 100% of what you (and/or the community) want? To put it another way "Is there NO END to the MADNESS"
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Aliens have moving booster known as lisk which allow them to "constantly keeping rushing" humans base without spending any bp, while humans simply cant do than. Not to metion, that it's far easier for alien to kill ret/repeater than for human to kill egg/booster. On the other hand forward booster is available at s2 while you can build forward medi right away.
Differences between teams make Tremulous interesting.
Humans always can kill alien structures easier because humans are ranged attackers.
Aliens always have had regeneration of some form. They could always rush. The lisk only helpful because regeneration was nerfed. Which even still, the lisk regeneration is dumb but I don't even feel like getting started on it.
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Lisk regen is awesome.
Makes it so much more useful IMHO.
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Aliens have to risk building eggs and stuff 'cause when they get 50 more bp and humans get free turrets to go next to repetears, they have to spread them out, but eggs can easily die, and then all the acid tubes and everything next to the egg blows up, and stuff! Human queue is really fast so repeaterds dying doesn't matter. Yes, boosters or hives providing their own creep as do eggs do would balance the game very much, and even then after many games and later, but then aliens are overpowered and win many more times! nob devs. The game was perfectly balanced and needs no more gameplay changes
And this is why people think you are inept
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temple,
i agree with what you are trying to say. but i dont think it has that great of an impact on balance and gameplay. with that being said though, if it were an issue in terms of gameplay or balance. one possibility would to make the booster indepent. specifically, you wouldnt need a creep in the area in order to build it. this would all you to simply build a booster anywhere along the map. At a cost though. the further away from the creep, the less regenerative powers it would have. Now this sounds stupid right because the stock alien regen powers are already decreased, but even a small increase in alien regen would benefit. Another idea would be to make a new structure, maybe a smaller booster with this function that would have less hp edit: and perhaps cost less bps.
obviously i dont know how hard this would be to code, or if the devs would even consider doing it. im just throwing an idea out there. thanks for finally full explaining your view point though. at least now we can get somewhere.
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Aliens have to risk building eggs and stuff 'cause when they get 50 more bp and humans get free turrets to go next to repetears, they have to spread them out, but eggs can easily die, and then all the acid tubes and everything next to the egg blows up, and stuff! Human queue is really fast so repeaterds dying doesn't matter. Yes, boosters or hives providing their own creep as do eggs do would balance the game very much, and even then after many games and later, but then aliens are overpowered and win many more times! nob devs. The game was perfectly balanced and needs no more gameplay changes
And this is why people think you are inept
Apparently, my impression and paraphrasing of a certain poster is either not absurd enough or not obvious enough.
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OK, I understand this, and I really don't know the state in which the current client and server are for 1.2 but I have one question (phrased different ways for understanding and emphasis). If you guys are making decisions about how the things are going and where to go next do you know when to stop for 1.2? Is there a point in your collective minds where you have nominated "That's for the next version"? Have you set limits to this development cycle? Or rather have you made an unconscious decision to stop when you feel it's right? Are you going to stop development when you all feel that it's 100% of what you (and/or the community) want? To put it another way "Is there NO END to the MADNESS"
Hey, a real question, asked nicely! +1
Development of Tremulous is rather compartmentalized. I'm really the only one making decisions about the gameplay, and I give little to no input regarding most else. And we really don't get together to make schedules and TODO lists, but I think Timbo, at least, has a solid idea of what constitutes "done". So I'm going to say the only thing that's at all open-ended is this process of testing and refining the gameplay. And my prediction is that I'm going to reach a "done" state before everything else is finished.
Or rather have you made an unconscious decision to stop when you feel it's right?
Nothing unconscious about it. There can't be objective limits to something like this, so I'm going to say "done" when I feel everything is right. And everything is so close to right already that if there were nothing else was left to do for 1.2 I would stop making adjustments right now.
But to be less vague, I'm still unsatisfied with: the flamer, the goon pounce, and the speed of marauders. The first two need some minor adjustments that will take a little more testing, and the change I'm probably going with for the marauder I don't expect to need testing. So I'm really almost done unless friendly fire on horribly breaks something (which I don't expect it to).
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OK, I understand this, and I really don't know the state in which the current client and server are for 1.2 but I have one question (phrased different ways for understanding and emphasis). If you guys are making decisions about how the things are going and where to go next do you know when to stop for 1.2? Is there a point in your collective minds where you have nominated "That's for the next version"? Have you set limits to this development cycle? Or rather have you made an unconscious decision to stop when you feel it's right? Are you going to stop development when you all feel that it's 100% of what you (and/or the community) want? To put it another way "Is there NO END to the MADNESS"
Hey, a real question, asked nicely! +1
Development of Tremulous is rather compartmentalized. I'm really the only one making decisions about the gameplay, and I give little to no input regarding most else. And we really don't get together to make schedules and TODO lists, but I think Timbo, at least, has a solid idea of what constitutes "done". So I'm going to say the only thing that's at all open-ended is this process of testing and refining the gameplay. And my prediction is that I'm going to reach a "done" state before everything else is finished.
Or rather have you made an unconscious decision to stop when you feel it's right?
Nothing unconscious about it. There can't be objective limits to something like this, so I'm going to say "done" when I feel everything is right. And everything is so close to right already that if there were nothing else was left to do for 1.2 I would stop making adjustments right now.
But to be less vague, I'm still unsatisfied with: the flamer, the goon pounce, and the speed of marauders. The first two need some minor adjustments that will take a little more testing, and the change I'm probably going with for the marauder I don't expect to need testing. So I'm really almost done unless friendly fire on horribly breaks something (which I don't expect it to).
see what happens when you ask properly and not demand 1.1 style also thanks for the info on next changes norf its about what i thought might happen in next phase
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temple,
i agree with what you are trying to say. but i dont think it has that great of an impact on balance and gameplay. with that being said though, if it were an issue in terms of gameplay or balance. one possibility would to make the booster indepent. specifically, you wouldnt need a creep in the area in order to build it. this would all you to simply build a booster anywhere along the map. At a cost though. the further away from the creep, the less regenerative powers it would have. Now this sounds stupid right because the stock alien regen powers are already decreased, but even a small increase in alien regen would benefit. Another idea would be to make a new structure, maybe a smaller booster with this function that would have less hp edit: and perhaps cost less bps.
obviously i dont know how hard this would be to code, or if the devs would even consider doing it. im just throwing an idea out there. thanks for finally full explaining your view point though. at least now we can get somewhere.
I appreciate the response.
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i don't think the forward eggs are a risk. When you can utilize a forward egg with a booster near a human base, that can lead to constant harassment of the human base. 22bp out of the 150bp isn't much if you know how to build the main base well. and you can attack and heal faster in 1.2 than in 1.1 because of the booster so the eggs can be very valuable. this goes with the repeater as well, u could build an arm and medi at a repeater to make a quick outpost. 1.2 in general makes trem funner in my opinion. if u liked slow games, u can stick to 1.1 but im lookin forward to 1.2 with these changes.
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Someone seems to forget that eggs alone increase heal rate as well. So you could even compare egg+boost to 2 medis.
Which even still, the lisk regeneration is dumb but I don't even feel like getting started on it.
But you did get started on it... Either explain fully or don't mention it, otherwise it is just unconstructive complaining.
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... or just a statement of his opinion on the matter.
Goddamn thought police. :police:
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I can't believe I just wasted twenty minutes of my life reading and trying to understand this. Long live 1.1! ...or 1.2? Whichever won't get me flamed. :P
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... or just a statement of his opinion on the matter.
Goddamn thought police. :police:
Have you ever even read 1984?
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the whole repeator/egg+booster thing though has another side that i forgot to mention. with a booster, usually youll have a constant alien presence near it to defend it. not necessarily the case with a forward turret. i know it doesnt explain cost difference etc. but just something else to think about, when arguing a change or the balance.
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I can't believe I just wasted twenty minutes of my life reading and trying to understand this. Long live 1.1! ...or 1.2? Whichever won't get me flamed. :P
Awesome.
I find that due to the mobility of aliens (and the range of humans), they'll generally put a "forward" booster relatively far back. For example, I find that on ATCS, aliens are comfortable having their forward in their half of the hallway, but humans aren't content having a forward so far from A Main, so they've got to invade alien's territory.
Attached is a shitty doodle of what I mean. These are the most common forwards I've seen on ATCS (1.1 vanilla). Notice that both human and alien forwards are close to A Main, and nowhere near H Main.
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ithis is the kind of retardness i was flaming about. you guys are very one sided. like norf said, literally looking for complaints and excuses. you simply love to hate 1.2 because its different.
You seem very eager to hate everyone who enjoys 1.1 just because they don't share your views. Why are those who enjoy 1.1 able to state the reasons why, without silly haters bombarding the forums with shit like: 'This is my opinion, yours is wrong, stop saying your right'. Then when we post our opinion on what you've said, you come at us with 'Stop hating 1.2 guys, you just hate because it's different'. Isn't that exactly what you're doing now? Hating because our opinion differs from yours?
Also, I liked the fact that instead of actually scanning the forums for reasons why, you just decided to post 'tell me moar reezons'. I take it you found many reasons, and wanted to ask an individuals opinion, so you could tell them they're wrong, because they're opinion is different from yours.
And you called us narrow-minded.
I love Trem. I love 1.2. Sure, I used to hate it, but after many play hours, I've adapted, and I love it. It's an great game, but it has the potential to be an AMAZING game. At the moment, I find 1.1 more entertaining and fun to play than 1.2, which is why I continue to play it.
In summary: Shut your whiny, hypocritical, narrow-minded ass the fuck up and let me play my 1.1s.
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Thats not at all why I've been asking for people to post specific reasons for disliking 1.2 or finding it less enjoyable. but if that makes you feel content, then sure.
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Thats not at all why I've been asking for people to post specific reasons for disliking 1.2 or finding it less enjoyable. but if that makes you feel content, then sure.
If you want real reasons I shall give you some:
1. It is difficult to adapt to.
2. It is difficult for noobs to adapt to even more so than vets of 1.1
3. some changes seem to be irrelevant and provide no real bonus to gameplay.
4. changes have made playing as aliens more frustrating (not necessarily harder, but it feels like it when you're being luci-spammed at your spawn)
5. Humans now seem to camp MORE instead of less, which is why some changes were implemented.
Finally, 6. The game is no longer fun to play. It is far more competitive, which isn't a bad thing, but it's more frustrating, and less fun to play.
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As a general 1.1 supporter I'm going to go Devil's Advocate and pick this apart.
Thats not at all why I've been asking for people to post specific reasons for disliking 1.2 or finding it less enjoyable. but if that makes you feel content, then sure.
If you want real reasons I shall give you some:
1. It is difficult to adapt to.Yeah. So? It's a good argument, but it adds something to Tremulous. Be happy. 1.1 was getting boring.
2. It is difficult for noobs to adapt to even more so than vets of 1.1 Are you a newb to Tremulous? No. Is this an assumption? Yes. My assumption is that the learning curve is a bit less. After all, I'm a slightly above average alien now.
3. some changes seem to be irrelevant and provide no real bonus to gameplay. Agreed.
4. changes have made playing as aliens more frustrating (not necessarily harder, but it feels like it when you're being luci-spammed at your spawn) It's nearly impossible to get frags if you join aliens in the late-game.
5. Humans now seem to camp MORE instead of less, which is why some changes were implemented. No comment. I haven't played enough.
6. The game is no longer fun to play. It is far more competitive, which isn't a bad thing, but it's more frustrating, and less fun to play. Invalid. Opinion. For example, I have more fun playing 1.2. It's much more intense and faster paced (though it's also got more of an arcadey feel to it which I'm not too much a fan of).
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suit yourself. I got my opinions.
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1. It is difficult to adapt to.
2. It is difficult for noobs to adapt to even more so than vets of 1.1
3. some changes seem to be irrelevant and provide no real bonus to gameplay.
4. changes have made playing as aliens more frustrating (not necessarily harder, but it feels like it when you're being luci-spammed at your spawn)
5. Humans now seem to camp MORE instead of less, which is why some changes were implemented.
Finally, 6. The game is no longer fun to play. It is far more competitive, which isn't a bad thing, but it's more frustrating, and less fun to play.
1. Everyone I know didn't have hard time switching from 1.1 to 1.2 IMO you (1.2 sucks people) just overstate adapt thing
2. You can speak as noob or vet, not both. And newbs won't have to adapt to any changes at all as they will play "brand new" game
3. Some changes mean nothing
4. Yes, because no one ever killed an egg with luci in 1.1 (that's called sarcasm (oh, that too)).
5. In 1.1 there were really few games that I played against not camping humans, 1.2 seems to be the opposite
6. I find 1.2 MUCH more fun than 1.1 where all you had to do as alien was to camp with rant near humans base entrances/try to still rant's food as any other class/try to kill a ret as anything when there are 4 humans sitting at it.
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1. It is difficult to adapt to.
2. It is difficult for noobs to adapt to even more so than vets of 1.1
3. some changes seem to be irrelevant and provide no real bonus to gameplay.
4. changes have made playing as aliens more frustrating (not necessarily harder, but it feels like it when you're being luci-spammed at your spawn)
5. Humans now seem to camp MORE instead of less, which is why some changes were implemented.
Finally, 6. The game is no longer fun to play. It is far more competitive, which isn't a bad thing, but it's more frustrating, and less fun to play.
1. Everyone I know didn't have hard time switching from 1.1 to 1.2 IMO you (1.2 sucks people) just overstate adapt thing
2. You can speak as noob or vet, not both. And newbs won't have to adapt to any changes at all as they will play "brand new" game
3. Some changes mean nothing
4. Yes, because no one ever killed an egg with luci in 1.1 (that's called sarcasm (oh, that too)).
5. In 1.1 there were really few games that I played against not camping humans, 1.2 seems to be the opposite
6. I find 1.2 MUCH more fun than 1.1 where all you had to do as alien was to camp with rant near humans base entrances/try to still rant's food as any other class/try to kill a ret as anything when there are 4 humans sitting at it.
1. Fair nuff.
2. I have friends who play.
3. Yepp.
4. I mean shooting me as soon as I exit the egg.
5. Really? I find it difficult to find a 1.2 game where there's not a bunch of hummies sittin on their ear-splitting-spin-up rets. Gotta find me some better servers.
6. I also find rants boring. You smash, run, smash, run, smash, run, die. repeat. I am that retard who jumps in as a dretch against a fully armoured shotgunner. More fun that way.
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1. It is difficult to adapt to. imo still easier then 1.1
2. It is difficult for noobs to adapt to even more so than vets of 1.1 are you saying it is supposed to be harder for vets? I remember som1 complain it was harder for vets... then which way do you haters like it?
3. some changes seem to be irrelevant and provide no real bonus to gameplay. which ones?
4. changes have made playing as aliens more frustrating (not necessarily harder, but it feels like it when you're being luci-spammed at your spawn) being lucispammed at spawn? wtf? luci is MUCH harder to spam now if you haven't noticed, especially in alien base where it can't defend itself as well any more
5. Humans now seem to camp MORE instead of less, which is why some changes were implemented. imo they camp less O.o
Finally, 6. The game is no longer fun to play. It is far more competitive, which isn't a bad thing, but it's more frustrating, and less fun to play. opinion... don't worry, there will be newb servers
6. I also find rants boring. You smash, run, smash, run, smash, run, die. repeat. I am that retard who jumps in as a dretch against a fully armoured shotgunner. More fun that way.
BULLSHIT. Was 10x worse in 1.1.
4. changes have made playing as aliens more frustrating (not necessarily harder, but it feels like it when you're being luci-spammed at your spawn) It's nearly impossible to get frags if you join aliens in the late-game.
Oh sure... partial frags made it sooo much harder. And you only have to get a high class once, after that won't matter how long you played.
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I'd like to hear specifics about what makes 1.2 hard to learn for new players than 1.1.
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suit yourself. I got my opinions.
opinions based on absolutely nothing solid.
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The game for humans is probably easier to learn. It is more unforgiving for aliens.
Dretches take 2 headshots which really makes a difference when humans are jumping, sprinting, and now dodging around. The feedback isn't there for when beginners are doing something right. 1.1, one headshot and you get the painful groan letting you know to finish them. Now, you can land a headshot and you don't really know until you get the second or until you hit them a few more times that it actually worked. Combine that with passive nature of dretches, and noobs are going to be in the dark for a while.
Basilisks and marauders are noob-proofed so congrats on that.
Goons and rants are way more unforgiving with chomp and maul. They require more precise, more wait time between them, and the POV change between classes can be disorienting in an already disorienting game. #1 complaint I've heard about aliens is they are hard to stomach, perspective wise. Now, the chomp/maul attacks are harder to hit with and in a different viewpoints.
Plus chomp and maul are on left mouse button by default, which says to the player they are the primary attacks. Pounce/trample should be left mouse and chomp/maul should be right mouse (as someone else stated) since pounce/trample have unseated the other attacks' role.
Pounce/trample are more finicky than before. You can't chain them like before (gotta land to charge pounce, trample doesn't autofire when fully charged or charge up when charging). Their damage varies and it isn't based on accuracy like say a headshot (even though every other class does).
A lot of changes make sense to a vet because we already know the mechanics. But a new player has the learn the mechanics and they will be lost as to how to make the most of it. Mainly because tremulous is already confusing enough. The side rules and little features make some stuff frustrating and 1.2 has more of them than 1.1 IMO.
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I completely agree with temple on his stance in terms of the dretch. I dont think its perfected. I cant seem to find any consistency in my bites. with 1.1 finding that sweet spot was simple and effective. In 1.2 its much more difficult, which i dont think is necessarily more balanced because humans now have the dodge function. this makes it trivial to simple dodge back from the dretch. I found that if you want to consistently 2-bite-KO a human, good luck because its gonna take a high degree of concentration, precision and skill.
I believe that the goon is perfect as it is. Now i havent been able to test norfs recent changes concerning the chomp and pounce range, but on paper i think it was the only thing needed to be done for the goon.
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I completely agree with temple on his stance in terms of the dretch. I dont think its perfected. I cant seem to find any consistency in my bites. with 1.1 finding that sweet spot was simple and effective. In 1.2 its much more difficult, which i dont think is necessarily more balanced because humans now have the dodge function. this makes it trivial to simple dodge back from the dretch. I found that if you want to consistently 2-bite-KO a human, good luck because its gonna take a high degree of concentration, precision and skill.
I believe that the goon is perfect as it is. Now i havent been able to test norfs recent changes concerning the chomp and pounce range, but on paper i think it was the only thing needed to be done for the goon.
ya i recently played gpp again and the dretching is kinda weird. you dont really know how much dmg u deal to the human each time u attack them. it took me an average of 3 hits to kill a human. sometimes i'd do 2 hits but mostly 3 hits would do the job.
goon chomp is a lot easier now since norf made the last change to the air speed. before saturday, the last time i played gpp (not just idling in the server talking) around early december and compared to now, the goon is a lot easier. strafe jumping is more useful and you can do the jump chomp thing in human bases again because of the air speed increase.
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OK, I understand this, a... "Is there NO END to the MADNESS"
Hey, a real question, asked nicely! +1
Development of Tremulous is rather compartmentalized. I'm really the only one making decisions about the gameplay, and I give little to no input regarding most else. And we really don't get together to make schedules and TODO lists, but I think Timbo, at least, has a solid idea of what constitutes "done". So I'm going to say the only thing that's at all open-ended is this process of testing and refining the gameplay. And my prediction is that I'm going to reach a "done" state before everything else is finished.
Or rather have you made an unconscious decision to stop when you feel it's right?
Nothing unconscious about it. There can't be objective limits to something like this, so I'm going to say "done" when I feel everything is right. And everything is so close to right already that if there were nothing else was left to do for 1.2 I would stop making adjustments right now.
But to be less vague, I'm still unsatisfied with: the flamer, the goon pounce, and the speed of marauders. The first two need some minor adjustments that will take a little more testing, and the change I'm probably going with for the marauder I don't expect to need testing. So I'm really almost done unless friendly fire on horribly breaks something (which I don't expect it to).
Thank you Norf, this was the best answer given yet, and I've asked several times. Hrm, in fact this is the first time I think this question was answered. What would really be Brilliant is if Timbo would answer it too.
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Nah headbiting for dretch is easy. Just aim above the head of the marine, higher than you would expect to. I've had frenzies of 3-4 kills several times in a match even. Oh, and hummies don't use dodge anywhere near its usefulness. By the time you've intercepted them, they've used it all in sprint. Yeah, it's harder (dretching) thank in 1.1, but you just gotta focus more. Personally, I like it. I've already said in feedback what I don't like about the dretch.
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Nah headbiting for dretch is easy.
Please understand what we are saying.
Headbiting with a dretch is harder to detect because it no longer deals as much damage. Beginners could have a harder time learning to headbite because there are less clues. In 1.1, a headbitten humans will moan louder than normal, which is a really good audio clue that you did something right. In 1.2, it isn't as noticeable, thus harder to learn.
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goon chomp is a lot easier now since norf made the last change to the air speed.
The only things I changed were the range of the bite and the range of pounce (not the distance you fly or anything -- the distance from the center of your bounding box to your target needed to register a hit during a pounce).
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Norf, you are my favourite dev, because you actually talk to us and give us good answers. Most of the time.
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I completely agree with temple on his stance in terms of the dretch. I dont think its perfected. I cant seem to find any consistency in my bites. with 1.1 finding that sweet spot was simple and effective. In 1.2 its much more difficult, which i dont think is necessarily more balanced because humans now have the dodge function. this makes it trivial to simple dodge back from the dretch. I found that if you want to consistently 2-bite-KO a human, good luck because its gonna take a high degree of concentration, precision and skill.
I believe that the goon is perfect as it is. Now i havent been able to test norfs recent changes concerning the chomp and pounce range, but on paper i think it was the only thing needed to be done for the goon.
totally agree on the dretch, I don't enjoying dretching near as much now, in 1.1 I would often just stay as a dretch cuz it was fun, now I evo as soon as I can, because it's not as enjoyable.
Goon, I'm a bit conflicted, I dunno, something just seems a bit weird about how it feels since 1.1, more than just the chomp range I think....I dunno....
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I completely agree with temple on his stance in terms of the dretch. I dont think its perfected. I cant seem to find any consistency in my bites. with 1.1 finding that sweet spot was simple and effective. In 1.2 its much more difficult, which i dont think is necessarily more balanced because humans now have the dodge function. this makes it trivial to simple dodge back from the dretch. I found that if you want to consistently 2-bite-KO a human, good luck because its gonna take a high degree of concentration, precision and skill.
I believe that the goon is perfect as it is. Now i havent been able to test norfs recent changes concerning the chomp and pounce range, but on paper i think it was the only thing needed to be done for the goon.
totally agree on the dretch, I don't enjoying dretching near as much now, in 1.1 I would often just stay as a dretch cuz it was fun, now I evo as soon as I can, because it's not as enjoyable.
Goon, I'm a bit conflicted, I dunno, something just seems a bit weird about how it feels since 1.1, more than just the chomp range I think....I dunno....
I find it easy to get headshots with the new dretch, you just have to be smart where you attack from.
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I'd like to hear specifics about what makes 1.2 harder to learn for new players than 1.1.
Hm.
What we need in new players is education.
A clear, easy to read manual would be absolutely perfect. Add access to the manual from in-game, and we've got a good reference for new players.
I agree with others who say that what we need is some kind of tutorial video. Learning by example is great for newbies. No, I'm not going to do it, and neither are you.
Example: My friend Repatition had been playing trem for a couple months. While he was playing aliens, he pointed at the screen and said "What are these blue and red dots for? They're annoying."
No joke.
Perhaps include an FAQ in the Help section of the in-game esc menu.
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A better FAQ thats ingame would be good...
If the devs don't want to do the work to create it, I'd gladly do my best to cover the basics of how to play....
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....My friend Repatition...
Bravery: you have it.
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I'd like to hear specifics about what makes 1.2 harder to learn for new players than 1.1.
Example: My friend Repatition had been playing trem for a couple months. While he was playing aliens, he pointed at the screen and said "What are these blue and red dots for? They're annoying."
No joke.
I hurt myself.