1.2 Gameplay Changes

[_Equilibrium_]

Maybe dretches that are running in a straight line on the ground, but those who know anything about the game use some kind of movement to try and dodge gunfire. If rifles, lasguns, and chains were guaranteed dretch killers, humans would win at the beginning of the game every time, no?

[UniqPhoeniX]

The inaccuracy of the chaingun means the dretch almost always dies at near point-blank range.

I've found that to be quite true, unless it's Meisseli holding the chaingun Maybe your opinion is a little biased considering your skill level, I've found most other players much easier to reach with dretch, but then again maybe I only manage that because of my dretch skills...

[Meisseli]

Maybe dretches that are running in a straight line on the ground, but those who know anything about the game use some kind of movement to try and dodge gunfire. If rifles, lasguns, and chains were guaranteed dretch killers, humans would win at the beginning of the game every time, no?

Maybe I am exaggerating too much - but dretch is very easy to die with and requires always corners. A lot of games happen that the dretches have no chance against a good rifle team. Why the game doesn't end in the beginning - it's harder to kill buildings with rifles. A lot of nano games happen to be lasgun rushes though.

Was discussing the changes again yesterday in European server - came to the conclusion that +5-10 hp dretch, +50 hp tyrant, better DC and basi gas would make Trem awesome, in my opinion. Now it is really good already

[A Spork]

I don't think I've mentioned this, but you reminded me: what about thickening, as well as increasing the hang time(and maybe the area) of basi gas? Make it so it could almost double as a smokescreen. Would add an interesting aspect to it IMHO.

[F50]

Hmm, but that would mean people effected by basi gass can't see, can't aim, and can't run away.

[A Spork]

I was thinking more of it as an escape tactic, so basi can gas and flee, so its harder to hit him...
I was thinking make it more like a fog, not quite as thin as it is right now, not so much about effecting those it gets.

[kevlarman]

the animation can be removed entirely with a cvar atm.

[Conzul]

Hmm, but that would mean people effected by basi gass can't see, can't aim, and can't run away.

Yeah, but you could give it an insanely long repeat, like one gas every 20-30 seconds.

[Cadynum]

Wouldn't it be a good idea to create one thread for each issue??

I suggest a separate forum about 1.2 balance changes to be created in which one issue go to one topic, for example:
The Dretch - Too weak
Defense Computer - Not doing enough

It would be much easier following different discussions rather than them being split between five "GPP Phase X" threads, this one, a whole bunch of "Persons X's opinion after playing Y hours", etc.

[David]

That's what the feedback forum is for

[HellsAngelz]

That's what the feedback forum is for

Basically they make forum discussions difficult to keep track of, and find, in order to keep unintelligent trolls and other nefarious mutanoids away from the important stuffs in the tremufloss community. That way the smart people don't need to make a novel about their idea on how to improve tremunests, and get a response back from 1.2SUCKSNINETHOUSAND saying "lol wut dat you say dawg, get some pussay plez man. no lief DooD"

and thus, he would be stealing MY Trolling job in this Tremulous community.
Hells would be very mad. 

[your face]

You aren't trolling, you are making a fool out of yourself trying. :/

I suggest taking it easy, and coming back after finding your missing marbles.

[HellsAngelz]

You aren't trolling, you are making a fool out of yourself trying. :/

I suggest taking it easy, and coming back after finding your missing marbles.

You're lucky this forum is my only place for entertainment, otherwise i'd say some very mean things which i'd get banned for.

[your face]

Don't strain yourself.

[HellsAngelz]

Don't stroke yourself.

Too late.

[your face]

way2funny

[andric123456]

i think that in 1.1 aliens is far stronger than human already...

[Deadbeat Engineer]

I dunno, only problem(s) I have atm is with the shotgun vs. dretch and the dretch's strafe speed. But, I think those issues have already been brought up. 

[rotacak]

i think that in 1.1 aliens is far stronger than human already...

In match atleast 6vs6 and similar skilled players?

[nubcake]

1.1 is very balanced, its more map dependant than anything. Heres some statistics from Aussie Assault, 24 player max server

1. atcs
Times Played: 5228
Alien Wins: 2380 (45.5%)
Human Wins: 2691 (51.5%)
Draws: 157 (3%)
Avg. Game Length: 22:43

2. tremor
Times Played: 1820
Alien Wins: 696 (38.2%)
Human Wins: 1087 (59.7%)
Draws: 37 (2%)
Avg. Game Length: 16:20


4. niveus
Times Played: 1224
Alien Wins: 638 (52.1%)
Human Wins: 565 (46.2%)
Draws: 21 (1.7%)
Avg. Game Length: 18:18


5. karith
Times Played: 883
Alien Wins: 549 (62.2%)
Human Wins: 296 (33.5%)
Draws: 38 (4.3%)
Avg. Game Length: 22:46


8. nexus6
Times Played: 622
Alien Wins: 334 (53.7%)
Human Wins: 254 (40.8%)
Draws: 34 (5.5%)
Avg. Game Length: 22:19


10. arachnid2
Times Played: 547
Alien Wins: 336 (61.4%)
Human Wins: 185 (33.8%)
Draws: 26 (4.8%)
Avg. Game Length: 19:08


Basically, the smaller a map is, the more even it is. The larger it becomes, the more alien bias it becomes. The more open and straight it is the more human bias.

[FisherP]

1.1 is very balanced, its more map dependant than anything. Heres some statistics from Aussie Assault, 24 player max server
...
Basically, the smaller a map is, the more even it is. The larger it becomes, the more alien bias it becomes. The more open and straight it is the more human bias.

Sorry nubcake, here I have to disagree with you (we may have to agree to disagree) If the game (as a whole) was balanced it wouldn't matter the size of the map. The win/loss stats of procyon should be the same as atcs. What I am talking about?... take UrT, the sides are equal to the point that the only serious difference is the color, everything is else is the same. The only thing in that game that can tilt the outcome is the skill of the individuals. Ergo, UrT is balanced, it wouldn't matter what size map u're playing the stats would show it's balanced. The fact that trem is a game where the stats are affected by map size points only to the fact that the game play is biased in favor of the aliens.

I agree with you about the openness of the maps some are way too open and humans totally win, but this is more to do with the contrasting style of fighting between the two teams. This is where maps need to be closely designed to offer two paths, one open and one that offers protection for the aliens. The team that can command their path the best will obviously be the dominate team.

[UniqPhoeniX]

I have to agree that the larger the map, the more it favors the aliens, but smaller maps are more human biased, not more balanced. Or in other words, the further the 2 bases are from each other, the better for aliens. Which is why humans should always when possible move their base towards the middle of the map and/or make an outpost near aliens, and the aliens should move further if possible. Also, once again, Procyon is not that big the distances between bases are very similar to niveus/nexus6/karith, sometimes even smaller.

[Meisseli]

1.1 is very balanced, its more map dependant than anything. Heres some statistics from Aussie Assault, 24 player max server
...
Basically, the smaller a map is, the more even it is. The larger it becomes, the more alien bias it becomes. The more open and straight it is the more human bias.

Sorry nubcake, here I have to disagree with you (we may have to agree to disagree) If the game (as a whole) was balanced it wouldn't matter the size of the map. The win/loss stats of procyon should be the same as atcs. What I am talking about?... take UrT, the sides are equal to the point that the only serious difference is the color, everything is else is the same. The only thing in that game that can tilt the outcome is the skill of the individuals. Ergo, UrT is balanced, it wouldn't matter what size map u're playing the stats would show it's balanced. The fact that trem is a game where the stats are affected by map size points only to the fact that the game play is biased in favor of the aliens.

I agree with you about the openness of the maps some are way too open and humans totally win, but this is more to do with the contrasting style of fighting between the two teams. This is where maps need to be closely designed to offer two paths, one open and one that offers protection for the aliens. The team that can command their path the best will obviously be the dominate team.

Comparing Tremulous to a game with two teams exactly the same is quite a feat. It almost sounds like you want Tremulous to evolve to a game with two identical teams.

Map size yes tilts the balance. That's normal. Humans should have a base as close to aliens as possible, and vice versa for aliens.

But there's a lot more to it than map size too. Nano has really challenging corridors for aliens for example, and worse base than in ATCS for example. Good maps are made balanced with small tricks, like you said.

[FisherP]

Comparing Tremulous to a game with two teams exactly the same is quite a feat. It almost sounds like you want Tremulous to evolve to a game with two identical teams...

Sorry, but that's not what I was trying to get at, not at all. Merely that imho well balanced gameplay on maps that are decently design should be balanced regardless of size. This is not what we find in Trem 1.1

[Meisseli]

Comparing Tremulous to a game with two teams exactly the same is quite a feat. It almost sounds like you want Tremulous to evolve to a game with two identical teams...

Sorry, but that's not what I was trying to get at, not at all. Merely that imho well balanced gameplay on maps that are decently design should be balanced regardless of size. This is not what we find in Trem 1.1

I see, but yeah, that's a hard thing to pull off. I'd say it's easier if mappers do balanced maps by testing them and looking at the stats.

[FisherP]

I see, but yeah, that's a hard thing to pull off. I'd say it's easier if mappers do balanced maps by testing them and looking at the stats.

I think/hope that Norfenstein has made an effort to balance out the game play for 1.2 so that the bias is not related to map size.. I could be totally wrong since I haven't played the GPP much.

[A Spork]

AFAIK the balance is pretty good regardless of map size, unless it's blatantly biased as a map towards 1 team(librelous anyone?)

[F50]

I see, but yeah, that's a hard thing to pull off. I'd say it's easier if mappers do balanced maps by testing them and looking at the stats.

I think/hope that Norfenstein has made an effort to balance out the game play for 1.2 so that the bias is not related to map size.. I could be totally wrong since I haven't played the GPP much.

Well you're talking as if there is no way for a mapper to compensate for map size. Of course map size will effect map balance somewhat, but that is by far not the most important issue to consider. Consider hallway size, for instance.

[Norfenstein]

I think/hope that Norfenstein has made an effort to balance out the game play for 1.2 so that the bias is not related to map size.. I could be totally wrong since I haven't played the GPP much.

Correct, and it was a very high priority for me. The repeater change, for instance, was something I felt had to be done in order for large maps to be playable, and making aliens more dependent on their bases (mostly via the regen change) was also partially because of this.

[jm82792]

The Repeaters are nice for this..
Each repeater gives you 20 BP.
Now do 3 repeaters somewhere and you can have a beefy outpost and have a strong main base.