1.2 Gameplay Changes going off topic :)

[danmal]

No, not the same - maps aren't executed.

They contain instructions on how to render the map, how objects in the map should behave, etc. At it's basic level it's not that different from a QVM. They're both just ways of representing a series of instructions.

[Rocinante]

Well that's how this all started roci, was my appeal that map downloads be on by default. Khalsa or Kevlar (cant tell them apart) said that the problem is you cant tell a map from another type of pk3 until it's downloaded.

That is also my understanding of how Q3 PK3s are represented to clients; there's no way to know what's in the PK3, and if it's a map or a QVM, until you have it.

No, not the same - maps aren't executed.

They contain instructions on how to render the map, how objects in the map should behave, etc. At it's basic level it's not that different from a QVM. They're both just ways of representing a series of instructions.

I'll let someone more familiar with how the details of the code answer this point; however it is my understanding that nothing in a map could be executed (perhaps in the case of a buffer overflow or something like it, maybe - but that's not their intended purpose).  QVMs however are loaded into the system and left to execute, and I also understand it is somewhat trivial to massage them into doing bad things.  The difference being that QVMs are intended to execute on a machine, while maps are not (and cannot be).

[David]

I am going to download a virus to your computer.
You have been informed, so it's OK right?

Well yes, although why you would accept is beyond me.

With your arguing for on-by-default, YOU DON'T GET TO ACCEPT.
It just happens.
The first you know about it it's too late.

And those other games get away with it due to having vast amounts of lawyers to write EULA's etc.
If those games didn't have the EULA's then they too would probably be illegal.

[Lakitu7]

Pseudo-lawyering aside who really gives a damn? The prompt is in. People will click yes. Seeing the prompt is the default (and actually replaces the no option).

[Kaine]

All you 1.2-rage guys think that 1.1 is the best thing ever when it's obviously got it's problems and quirks. Hey, can YOU come up with a better function for the hovel? What's that? NO?! Then stfu and gtfo.

In 1.1, of the hovel and the barricade, which structure was used in nearly every game, and which was almost never built?  (Except by polaks who had been playingTremulous <5 minutes.)  And yet, the developpers decided to nix the useful structure on their next release, and instead wasted months trying to make the barricades less shitty...

I'd still take my hovel over the new 'cades, any day of the week.

[David]

Even if the hovel costs?
And I never saw the hovel used in real games.  Probably because I play with smart people who know WTF they are doing and know it just isn't worth the build timer for a cade that only blocks tyrants.

[Lakitu7]

I disagree. It was used most games because it's free. It's not like builders have a full buildtimer all the time unless you're playing UBP or some such. I think smart people will use something potentially beneficial when it is free.

[A Spork]

I only ever used it on ATCS to block Lucijumpers....

[Lakitu7]

Same. Maybe it's only used most atcs games, but unfortunately most games and most atcs games are kind of the same thing in 1.1 right now. 

[danmal]

Pseudo-lawyering aside who really gives a damn? The prompt is in. People will click yes. Seeing the prompt is the default (and actually replaces the no option).

You're right, it is a bit of a silly discussion considering that we're both supporting the prompt.

[Grape]

I'd still take my hovel over the new 'cades, any day of the week.

too bad u cant since they're removed!

[Kaine]

Even if the hovel costs?
And I never saw the hovel used in real games.  Probably because I play with smart people who know WTF they are doing and know it just isn't worth the build timer for a cade that only blocks tyrants.

Try leaving your closed "MG community" and playing on servers that people (other than MG) actually play on, and you'll find that the Hovel is utilized most every game, whereas barricades are not.  And if by "smart people who know WTF they are doing" you meant your faildev MG Overlords, then I just had a hearty laugh at your expense.

PS: The new turrets suck ass.

[Ryanw4390]

Even if the hovel costs?
And I never saw the hovel used in real games.  Probably because I play with smart people who know WTF they are doing and know it just isn't worth the build timer for a cade that only blocks tyrants.

Try leaving your closed "MG community" and playing on servers that people (other than MG) actually play on, and you'll find that the Hovel is utilized most every game, whereas barricades are not.  And if by "smart people who know WTF they are doing" you meant your faildev MG Overlords, then I just had a hearty laugh at your expense.

PS: The new turrets suck ass.

Yeah I've seen hovels used much more often than barricades in 1.1 and I play with >< who are some of the smartest guys I know.

[elmo*USA]

I never saw the hovel used in real games.

When was the last time you played a game that lasted to stage 3?
Even on maps besides ATCS, the hovel is always used. Like Ozzy said, builders use it because its harder to justify building a barricade. IMO it does a barricades job better, because people usually ignore the hovel until it blocks them.
So I have to wonder, what smart people are you referring to?

[UniqPhoeniX]

I disagree. It was used most games because it's free. It's not like builders have a full buildtimer all the time unless you're playing UBP or some such. I think smart people will use something potentially beneficial when it is free.

^That. It wouldn't be used if it wasn't free, 1 free barricade would be better in most cases because humans can't just jump over it.

[khalsa]

Barricades are eminently more useful now, which made hovel useless.

Please play on the dev servers before arguing about them

Khalsa

[BoomStick]

Maybe Give the Humies and Aliens a new structure? 

[wolfbr]

it would be interesting to see new weapons/alien's class in tremulous.

exemple:

Humans

Quad Rocket Launcher: S3 weapon price: 500
It shoots a burst of 4 mini rockets. little inaccurate, good splash, regular damange.
best targets> small aliens, group of aliens, thus best used in close quarters.

secundary fire: It shoots a burst of 4 grenades, the grenades fly out, bouncing off solid surfaces and exploding after 3 seconds.

ammo pack: The ammo pack increases the maximum ammo capacity of non energy weapons.

battle suit: currently only it improves chaigun, would be interesting if one improves all the weapons(exemple: lcannon >If the attack is charged for too long the weapon not explode)

Aliens:

adv dretch and flying Alien.

: D

[Kaine]

Barricades are eminently more useful now, which made hovel useless.

Please play on the dev servers before arguing about them

Khalsa

I'm not a huge fan of quoting oneself, but it becomes necissary when smug morons make ill-informed posts based on their failure to read what was posted the first time.  Tell you what Khalsa, I'll add 2 points to the font size, and make it red this time, just for you.

In 1.1, of the hovel and the barricade, which structure was used in nearly every game, and which was almost never built?  (Except by polaks who had been playingTremulous <5 minutes.)  And yet, the developpers decided to nix the useful structure on their next release, and instead wasted months trying to make the barricades less shitty...

I'd still take my hovel over the new 'cades, any day of the week.

My complaint is that "the dev team" is so out of touch with how the game is being played, and how the playerbase is utilizing structures, that they went off and wasted a hell of a lot of time "improving" a structure ('cade) that was essentially a shittier version of the hovel.  So now you've made 1.2 barricades almost as useful as a hovel, removed the hovel altogether, and somehow you think that's an improvement.  Congratulations, you want a cookie?  No.  Because it's still a step backwards, even if it's only a quarter-step.

And I have been playing on your dev servers... where else would my complaints stem from.  I understand you think it's okay to disengage your brain when "developping" shitty new ways to ruin the game, but please re-engage it before engaging me.

Thanks,
-Kaine

[FreaK]

Barricades are eminently more useful now, which made hovel useless.

Please play on the dev servers before arguing about them

Khalsa

I'm not a huge fan of quoting oneself, but it becomes necissary when smug morons make ill-informed posts based on their failure to read what was posted the first time.  Tell you what Khalsa, I'll add 2 points to the font size, and make it red this time, just for you.

In 1.1, of the hovel and the barricade, which structure was used in nearly every game, and which was almost never built?  (Except by polaks who had been playingTremulous <5 minutes.)  And yet, the developpers decided to nix the useful structure on their next release, and instead wasted months trying to make the barricades less shitty...

I'd still take my hovel over the new 'cades, any day of the week.

My complaint is that "the dev team" is so out of touch with how the game is being played, and how the playerbase is utilizing structures, that they went off and wasted a hell of a lot of time "improving" a structure ('cade) that was essentially a shittier version of the hovel.  So now you've made 1.2 barricades almost as useful as a hovel, removed the hovel altogether, and somehow you think that's an improvement.  Congratulations, you want a cookie?  No.  Because it's still a step backwards, even if it's only a quarter-step.

And I have been playing on your dev servers... where else would my complaints stem from.  I understand you think it's okay to disengage your brain when "developping" shitty new ways to ruin the game, but please re-engage it before engaging me.

Thanks,
-Kaine

I think improving the barricade was a good idea, whats the point of a structure if its never used. Also, the hovel was only useful in certain situations. In some bases you couldn't even use it or didn't need it. The barricade is always used in bases in dev games because its so useful to a base now. Humans can jump on top of the hovel, shoot over the hovel. The only thing it was used for was a free barricade to block nades or block luci jumpers. A step backwards would be keeping to barricade the way it is and removing the hovel. That's not what happened, they improved the barricade so the hovel was no longer needed except if you wanted to glitch with it.

[Plague Bringer]

I think improving the barricade was a good idea, whats the point of a structure if its never used. Also, the hovel was only useful in certain situations. In some bases you couldn't even use it or didn't need it. The barricade is always used in bases in dev games because its so useful to a base now. Humans can jump on top of the hovel, shoot over the hovel. The only thing it was used for was a free barricade to block nades or block luci jumpers. A step backwards would be keeping to barricade the way it is and removing the hovel. That's not what happened, they improved the barricade so the hovel was no longer needed except if you wanted to glitch with it.

THIS IS THE POINT. It should have been removed rather than the hovel, which I've seen used quite frequently.

[FreaK]

I think improving the barricade was a good idea, whats the point of a structure if its never used. Also, the hovel was only useful in certain situations. In some bases you couldn't even use it or didn't need it. The barricade is always used in bases in dev games because its so useful to a base now. Humans can jump on top of the hovel, shoot over the hovel. The only thing it was used for was a free barricade to block nades or block luci jumpers. A step backwards would be keeping to barricade the way it is and removing the hovel. That's not what happened, they improved the barricade so the hovel was no longer needed except if you wanted to glitch with it.

THIS IS THE POINT. It should have been removed rather than the hovel, which I've seen used quite frequently.

Ok, they improved the barricade thats why it wasn't removed. Thus making the hovel useless

[Grape]

for you saying it was used more than barricades NO SHIT IT WAS FUCKING FREE OK HOLY MAMA

[FreaK]

YA IT WAS FREE BITCHES SO STOP THE FUCKING BITCHING ABOUT IT ALREADY OK I BET IF THE BARRICADE WAS FREE PEOPLE WOULD USE THAT BITCH IN 1.1 TOO MOTHERFUCKER.

[Jedarus]

YA IT WAS FREE BITCHES SO STOP THE FUCKING BITCHING ABOUT IT ALREADY OK I BET IF THE BARRICADE WAS FREE PEOPLE WOULD USE THAT BITCH IN 1.1 TOO MOTHERFUCKER.

I'm really tempted to join in with CAPS but the thought of derailing a topic outside the Clans section frightens me a great deal.

I think improving the barricade was a good idea, whats the point of a structure if its never used. Also, the hovel was only useful in certain situations. In some bases you couldn't even use it or didn't need it. The barricade is always used in bases in dev games because its so useful to a base now. Humans can jump on top of the hovel, shoot over the hovel. The only thing it was used for was a free barricade to block nades or block luci jumpers. A step backwards would be keeping to barricade the way it is and removing the hovel. That's not what happened, they improved the barricade so the hovel was no longer needed except if you wanted to glitch with it.

THIS IS THE POINT. It should have been removed rather than the hovel, which I've seen used quite frequently.

Ok, they improved the barricade thats why it wasn't removed. Thus making the hovel useless

Barricades don't shrink properly and in some cases it's just easier to destroy them. With a hovel dragoons can easily pounce over it, and rants can get over it with the help of some floor t00bz, eggs etc.

[Kriegsgott]

I don't build much in public games. Something to do with wanting a stage increase before the rest of the team feeds the opponents.

All the same, the few times I do build (and during clan matches) I always utilize the hovel. Why?

. . . because people usually ignore the hovel until it blocks them.

This is the key phrase. People ignore the hovel. Why? The hovel does no damage. The hitbox isn't large enough to block shots over it or to prevent humans from jumping on top of it. So what good is it?

The basic premise of an alien base in 1.1 is to delay and distract humans so aliens can finish them off quickly and easily. Properly placed, the hovel can 1) deny access to an alcove to prevent certain firing paths, 2) retard the ability of luci-jumpers, 3) be placed next to a path so the creep slows passing humans, 4) it's a hiding place for a granger to heal in in between spits, and 4) it acts as a barricade on narrow ramps. If a human does shoot it, it has more hitpoints than any other structure besides the overmind and it delays them.

Even with the changes made in 1.2, the hovel is still useful.

[Cadynum]

The hovel's intended usage was as a granger hideout. This proved to be almost entirely useless and it was instead used as a free barricade.
Now in the beta you have more 40bp more and the barricade is stronger and cheaper! Covering every useful way to utilize the hovel.
This must be the most pointless change to argue about :/

[Kriegsgott]

I happen to be arguing because the hovel filled a certain niche. While it may not have meant to be used in the way it was, one could say the same about many of the buildings and classes in 1.1. Most of these have been tweaked (*cough* outright changes *cough*) in 1.2 to make up for their previous difficulties. To use your example, the barricade is now feasible. However, there is nothing close to what the hovel offered (see my previous post).

Besides, I want my hiding spot back.

Not complaining about the changes for the most part. I think they'll work out.

[Plague Bringer]

It'd be nice if the hovel were to remain, and allow for a separate spawn cue for grangers.

Just a thought.

[janev]

Solution: Give the aliens 1 free barricade to placate the raging teens for the loss of their free barricade. If someone really want a hiding spot for the granger make the hovel only placeable on the roof. That would get rid of the hovel= barricade problem anyway It could cause other problems though. Come to think of it, disallowing trappers being built on the floor might not be a bad idea either. The hovel being an extra spawn for grangers doesn't sound like a crazy idea either.

I won't code it though so this post is about as useless as that guy smartgun.