Cube2 engine

[rotacak]

Can someone, who understand engine problems, look at this?: http://sauerbraten.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html
It is suitable for Tremulous or not? I tried Sauerbraten game and I got low FPS (but I have old PC). Gameplay reminds me old DOOM I, but graphic is really nice, especially water or even bullet marks on wall. On the other side, animations are ugly even they should be ragdoll, same with explosions. I think that can be improved but what do you think about this engine?

Engine Features
    * 6 directional heightfield in octree world structure allowing for instant easy in-game geometry editing (even in multiplayer, coop edit).
    * Rendering engine optimized for high geometry throughput, supporting hardware occlusion culling and software precomputed conservative PVS with occluder fusion.
    * Lightmap based lighting with accurate shadows from everything including mapmodels, smooth lighting for faceted geometry, and fast compiles. Soft shadowmap based shadows for dynamic entities.
    * Pixel and vertex shader support, each model and world texture can have its own shader assigned. Supports normal and parallax mapping, specular and dynamic lighting with bloom and glow, environment-mapped and planar reflections/refractions, and post-process effects.
    * Robust physics written specifically for this world structure.
    * Loading of md2/md3/md5/obj models for skeletal and vertex animated characters, weapons, items, and world objects. Supports animation blending, procedural pitch animation, and ragdoll physics for skeletally-animated characters.
    * Network library designed for high speed games, client/server network system.
    * Small but complete configuration/scripting language.
    * Simple stereo positional sound system.
    * Particle engine, supporting text particles, volumetric explosions, soft particles, and decals.
    * 3d menu/gui system, for in-world representation of choices.

[KillerWhale]

There's issues with support, security, and cheating, afaik.
It has some nice rendering and whatnot, but past that, I don't see it being feasible for a whole lot.

Also, if you've ever played online, you'd know that there is horrid map support.
When a server plays a map you don't have, you get stuck on the last map you were playing, but see the other players in spots relative to the actual map the server is playing.
Needless to say, this causes tons of issues and makes the cube2 engine annoying to the utmost point.

It might be interesting to see if the graphical upgrades could be ported, but they would probably need to be optimized.
They take a pretty heavy toll compared to the same features on other engines.

[rotacak]

Autodownload map system should not be hard to code. But I don't know if Cube2 engine using gfx cards better than Tremulous engine. If not, then Cube2 engine will be nicer but even more slower than Tremulous.

[MitSugna]

Good idea. Too bad it is not applicable

[Asmoien]

There's issues with support, security, and cheating, afaik.
It has some nice rendering and whatnot, but past that, I don't see it being feasible for a whole lot.

Also, if you've ever played online, you'd know that there is horrid map support.
When a server plays a map you don't have, you get stuck on the last map you were playing, but see the other players in spots relative to the actual map the server is playing.
Needless to say, this causes tons of issues and makes the cube2 engine annoying to the utmost point.

It might be interesting to see if the graphical upgrades could be ported, but they would probably need to be optimized.
They take a pretty heavy toll compared to the same features on other engines.

AFAUK, you don't know "far."

Cheating, when I used to do it, has been changed a year ago or so, to the point where it has become server-sided now. So you can't hack ammo and HPs.

But yeah, bottom line is: Cube2 would have to be heavily modified to be suitable for trem. Just not worth the effort at its current stage.

Map-Creation is a pain in the ass. But whatever...

[Taiyo.uk]

The Intensity engine: http://www.syntensity.com/toplevel/intensityengine/ is largely based on Qube2/Sauerbraten, and addresses some of these issues. Perhaps a trem implementation could be written for it, though again that is allot of work.

[Plague Bringer]

If we're "porting", I very strongly suggest we "port" to Source.

[Thorn]

Why bother? The code is already in XreaL, a far superior engine. The simple fact is, nobody is contributing art assets, and guess what? That's not going to change by going to an engine like Source/Cube2/pickurfancy

[Plague Bringer]

Why bother? The code is already in XreaL, a far superior engine. The simple fact is, nobody is contributing art assets, and guess what? That's not going to change by going to an engine like Source/Cube2/pickurfancy

Superior is largely a matter of opinion.

T'was just my two cents. I know that no one's contributing assets, and that's likely the way it'll stay.

[SlackerLinux]

If we're "porting", I very strongly suggest we "port" to Source.

and source engine really supports all the platforms our userbase is on(if you didnt know no it doesnt)
that rules source out unless if you want to stop the 99pct of users who use linux to play tremulous

XReal is quite good still has a lil way to go though but not too far.

you might not need new assets if the engine is opensource just code another resource loader and use all the old assets then you can release with a new engine and slowly port assets to better alternatives

im still hoping they'll release doom3 engine opensource like they said they would ages ago but its 2010 and looks like it isnt ever going to happen that would be my choice hands down if it was ever opensourced

[Hendrich]

If we're "porting", I very strongly suggest we "port" to Source.

and source engine really supports all the platforms our userbase is on(if you didnt know no it doesnt)
that rules source out unless if you want to stop the 99pct of users who use linux to play tremulous

XReal is quite good still has a lil way to go though but not too far.

you might not need new assets if the engine is opensource just code another resource loader and use all the old assets then you can release with a new engine and slowly port assets to better alternatives

im still hoping they'll release doom3 engine opensource like they said they would ages ago but its 2010 and looks like it isnt ever going to happen that would be my choice hands down if it was ever opensourced

But on a technical level, the Doom 3 engine (aka ID Tech4) is less superior then Xreal. And like said before, Tremulous is already ported to Xreal, so there would be little gain in doing so.

[Plague Bringer]

.

[Thorn]

Superior is largely a matter of opinion.

No, superior comes down to technical features, reliability, and overall engine performance. XreaL _does_ excel in this field. Source does not support any form of heightmapping, nor map-side dynamic lighting (You can do it with lightstyles). The only thing going for source is a better toolchain, but that's not heart to the engine, and source still mostly relies on external tools to do so.

XReal is quite good still has a lil way to go though but not too far.

XreaL as it is now seems to be as good as it's going to get. Tr3b seems pretty out on the project as of recent, which is very unfortunate when features such as bullet physics/JVM/ambient occlusion were extremely close on the horizon.

you might not need new assets if the engine is opensource just code another resource loader and use all the old assets then you can release with a new engine and slowly port assets to better alternatives

I don't really get what you mean here, the XreaL port already uses the current trem assets, as well as one default map, and one 1.1 custom map being distributed with it.

[MitSugna]

No matter how many of those threads you open, No one will port trem to [insert awesome engine here] for you.
You should do it yourself.
every time you open a thread like this a baby rant dies

[Plague Bringer]

No matter how many of those threads you open, No one will port trem to [insert awesome engine here] for you.
You should do it yourself.
every time you open a thread like this a baby rant dies

Sigged, if you don't mind..

[SlackerLinux]

you might not need new assets if the engine is opensource just code another resource loader and use all the old assets then you can release with a new engine and slowly port assets to better alternatives

I don't really get what you mean here, the XreaL port already uses the current trem assets, as well as one default map, and one 1.1 custom map being distributed with it.

im talking about other engines not XReal sometimes its faster to code a loader to load current assets then it is to remake all the assets(2-3 loaders to load current assets or over 1000 or so assets to be remade id go with coding loaders). XReal afaik is just Q3 with new renderer / few other enhancements so porting wouldn't be as big of a deal and all the filetypes/resources would already be supported so its really only the game code that needs to be added which is already done.

[Thorn]

Writing loaders for the old content on any modern engine doesn't make sense. You put a 300 poly asset on a modern engine and it's still going to look 300 poly.

[rotacak]

No matter how many of those threads you open, No one will port trem to [insert awesome engine here] for you.
You should do it yourself.
every time you open a thread like this a baby rant dies

Maybe you should re-read topic. I not asking for porting trem to Cube2 Engine...

Well, Xreal looks better. I will look at that engine. Sadly, it is written in C++ :-(

[Thorn]

Well, Xreal looks better. I will look at that engine. Sadly, it is written in C++ :-(

Uhhhh no, it definitely isn't.

XrealRadiant uses C++ ( It's just DarkRadiant with a few modifications ) but XreaL itself uses C.

[rotacak]

But it's compiled with MSVC studio?

[rotacak]

Damn, I can't test Xreal due to my old gfx card (does not support shader pixel 3.0) 

[SlackerLinux]

Writing loaders for the old content on any modern engine doesn't make sense. You put a 300 poly asset on a modern engine and it's still going to look 300 poly.

but it gets those 300 poly resources working in the new engine using any "enhancement" the engine might have (like bloom etc). of-course then you gotta redo the assets better but they don't have to be done all at once or right away they can be done slowly and the game can be released at any stage since there's nothing "missing"

[3th4n]

You put a 300 poly asset on a modern engine and it's still going to look 300 poly.

Seconded.

Bump mapping can only do so much. And porting tremulous to another engine would be the same as what valve did to counterstrike 1.6
(those of you who remember 1.6, valve stopped us shooting through walls, and gave grenades a 'bounding box' so that you cant throw it through a pin sized gap )

I think tremulous 1.2 should use this awesome engine ioQuake3. The graphics are a little out dated, but that means more people can play it. More players = more fun + more servers.

In conclusion, money = hat.

[Asvarox]

outdated engine = less interest = less players

[jal]

But on a technical level, the Doom 3 engine (aka ID Tech4) is less superior then Xreal. And like said before, Tremulous is already ported to Xreal, so there would be little gain in doing so.

Please, don't confuse the renderer with the engine. XReal renderer has more modern features than Doom3 renderer, but the engine is the whole thing, not just the renderer, and the Doom3 engine as a whole is much more powerful than XReal.

Superior is largely a matter of opinion.

No, superior comes down to technical features, reliability, and overall engine performance. XreaL _does_ excel in this field. Source does not support any form of heightmapping, nor map-side dynamic lighting (You can do it with lightstyles). The only thing going for source is a better toolchain, but that's not heart to the engine, and source still mostly relies on external tools to do so.

Same thing I said above. Source isn't the most flashy renderer in the market, but it is a wonderful engine very well featured for modern looking games that run in a wide spectrum of hardware, and even the renderer alone is usually underrated.

[jal]

.

[SlackerLinux]

Superior is largely a matter of opinion.

No, superior comes down to technical features, reliability, and overall engine performance. XreaL _does_ excel in this field. Source does not support any form of heightmapping, nor map-side dynamic lighting (You can do it with lightstyles). The only thing going for source is a better toolchain, but that's not heart to the engine, and source still mostly relies on external tools to do so.

Same thing I said above. Source isn't the most flashy renderer in the market, but it is a wonderful engine very well featured for modern looking games that run in a wide spectrum of hardware, and even the renderer alone is usually underrated.

again doesn't run on linux and is close source so Source engine will always be -99999999999999999999. why would anyone consider removing 99pct of trems current player-base moving to a windows only engine

[jal]

I wasn't saying Trem should be ported to Source nor Doom3. It shouldn't, just because it would not be standalone anymore.

[MitSugna]

again doesn't run on linux and is close source so Source engine will always be -99999999999999999999. why would anyone consider removing 99pct of trems current player-base moving to a windows only engine

Most of the gamers don't use linux. Of course, you would lose some players; probably >50% but not 99%. On the other hand, you would gain more players than you lost, if you released it as a HL2 mod... I would be some other game not Tremulous; a clone

[Demolution]

again doesn't run on linux and is close source so Source engine will always be -99999999999999999999. why would anyone consider removing 99pct of trems current player-base moving to a windows only engine

Most of the gamers don't use linux. Of course, you would lose some players; probably >50% but not 99%. On the other hand, you would gain more players than you lost, if you released it as a HL2 mod... I would be some other game not Tremulous; a clone

Have you played any of the source games recently? A lot of them are full of retarded kids who just got their first microphone and are eager to whine about something or other to everyone on the server. Sure, there are some decent players here and there, but I hardly think it's worth it to lose the Linux crowd just to gain some engine improvements.