gpp thoughts - dretch vs rifle, DC, etc

[jez]

I've been doing some more playing, re-read a lot of the discussion in this forum and I'd like to highlight a few things and share some opinions. It would be good to hear people's thoughts and have some discussion on the problems/solutions I've outlined. A few of these are my own observations & ideas, a few I've read elsewhere and what's been pointed out has resonated with me enough to warrant repeating it.

Sorry about the length, but I've aimed to be as dense & concise as possible and tried to break it up a bit to avoid wall of text syndrome.


1 - Dretch vs rifle balance:

Norf has said a few times he remains unconvinced there's a problem here, but I'm very much coming around to the view that the dretch really is too weak vs a rifle, even for its value. This is an extremely crucial part of gameplay to get right, not just for s1 but for the entire match, so I'm still going to chip in.

A moderately skilled naked rifle can usually take out a dretch given a second or 2 with line of sight, or if he's able to anticipate where the alien is likely to be. Therefore in order for dretches to secure kills they have to rely a lot on the human screwing up (either by letting themselves be ambushed or by just plain sucking at aiming). I know its not quite as simple as that, but a dretch's usefulness quickly reaches a ceiling regardless of player skill, and after that it mainly depends on the human. This is not so fun for the dretch, and lets humans dictate the game for the first few minutes. Relying on pub human feeding and free evos for aliens getting off the mark is not ideal.

This is  a two part thing: the weakness in many circumstances of the dretch, and the usefulness of the rifle. A dretch buff wouldn't hurt the rest of the game either - after s2 the dretch takes a nose dive in usefulness due to helmets etc in a way that the trusty old rifle doesn't really.

Some possible ways to help the dretch:
   - Lower the value (180 -> 150) - imo a much better reflection of the true value of it as things stand
   - A small but significant HP buff (25 -> 30) - would let the dretch survive a couple more tenths of a second of approaching.
   - A better bite (36 -> 40) - enough for torso + headbite to kill.


As for the rifle, the easiest way to tune it would be to lower its ROF slightly (90 -> ~110). I don't like the idea of lowering damage per shot as much, as this also changes how much damage a rifle can do in one clip, which feels about right.

Also, I have a slightly more radical idea to better reflect the value of the rifle (especially the armoured rifle) by effectively making it cost 50cr or so more than it does relative to the other weapons. Obviously it must remain free at point of use, so what I'm proposing is to change the price of larmour+helm from 70+90 -> 90+120, and to reduce the price of all other weapons by 50. This means a loadout such as {lasgun, larmour, helm, battpack} would cost the same, but that an armoured rifle costs 50 more due to the lamour+helm price hike. [edit - also realised another knock on effect would be a required raise of the bsuit cost to 450 in order for everything else to remain unchanged]

I am convinced this would be a fairer and more balanced way of doing things. It has never felt right that a human can be so effective for so little cash at s2, whereas an alien has to shell out a good bit more to become an effective s2 combatant.



2 - The DC:

Quite a lot of discussion has centred around how the DC should work, and how useful it really is at present. The consensus seems to be that it can be nice to have, but isn't really that important, and people would like it to do more (obviously without it making human bases too strong). Aside from the healing rate/mechanism debate, I'm proposing a secondary function for the DC: as the key to the radar in human helmets. Basically, if there's no DC up, the radar doesn't function.

This is obviously something the humans would ordinarily want to have, but isn't a crippling blow if the aliens manage to kill it, so in my mind it would put the DC in a nice bracket of importance. It doesn't really reduce the value of a helmet much, it would still be essential wear for its protection regardless. Also importantly, this isn't another new shiny feature which the humans have got and the aliens haven't - its just adding a precondition for an existing human thing. To me, this feels good.

As a side issue, the building itself feels too fragile. 190HP doesn't even require a goon to use his 3rd barb! I think being a meaningful building should go hand in hand with a modicum of resilience, perhaps 240-300HP would be good.



3 - Disincentive for camping / rewarding map control & offence:

These are 2 sides of the same coin. Encouraging this I think is pretty much universally seen as a good thing and makes games more fun and dynamic. Basically I'm just plugging domination here. Map control = more free credits for rushing teams hiding in bases. It would make games more volatile though: if one team got ahead, this advantage would tend to increase, rather than fizzle out after a while.



4 - misc other

• I'd like to be able to share excess credits amongst my team. Its annoying letting them go to waste, and it feels like those credits have somehow got the right to be used. Autosharing when over the limit would be even better.
• I dislike how the multiplier for light armour varies as 0.3, 0.35 or 0.4 depending on angle. It feels needlessly overcomplicated - is there a good reason to not just replace it with 0.35?
• I'd like to be able to evolve nearer humans or their buildings. Its a fairly annoying limitation, and I can't really see how it could get abused. [edit, suggestion by celestial_rage - override the evolution denial when near the OM or on creep]
• I'd like an optional mini map in the corner of the screen. It doesn't have to have too much info on it other than your position and direction, but it would really help with navigation for new players and maps. Probably a pain for the mappers too, but it would be nice.
[edit - new addition] • Initial credits for players joining a match late. If you join when your team is s2, you get an initial free 1 evo / 222 credits. If you join when your team is s3, this is 2 evos / 444 credits. Not huge, but means you can be useful from the start, especially for aliens who would otherwise have to patiently dretch/build for a while.


Thanks for reading. Hope you agreed with some of this, or at least found some interesting things to think about.

[Celestial_Rage]

For your dretch vs rifle point, I don't really see the issue. I am against anything that changes the rifle, as I feel that it is great the way it is. Although, I think an increase in dretch bite would be extremely beneficial, especially on maps like tremor, where humans really dominate in the beginning, and if they break through, they rifle the entire base down in under 3 minutes.

For your defense computer point, I would rather not have an essential ability such as the radar hinged on such a weak building. The radar is one of the key gains in stage 2. I have no issue with the defense computer being as it is. Perhaps, allow the defense computer to lock onto targets faster.

Camping: It's going to happen no matter what. It's part of the game.

Misc:
-  Sharing would be nice, but it's not a game changer. I doubt sharing will be enabled by default, but I'm sure it will come out in a couple of mods.
-  Evolving near humans: It is easily abusable: Go on the ceiling as dretch, get into the human base and evolve into a bigger human. Although (I'm not sure if this is implemented) being able   to evolve near the OM regardless of human presence would be nice.

[jez]

For your dretch vs rifle point, I don't really see the issue. I am against anything that changes the rifle, as I feel that it is great the way it is. Although, I think an increase in dretch bite would be extremely beneficial, especially on maps like tremor, where humans really dominate in the beginning, and if they break through, they rifle the entire base down in under 3 minutes.

Quite. Off the mark its not unusual to be able to kill 3 or so dretches in a row and still be very much alive. It is rarer to see a dretch single handedly taking out multiple humans without being killed. If things go that way on tremor, then that can have some unfortunate consequences for the alien base.

I'm not set on changing the rifle either, but there were a fair few people saying it was too strong and a (5 -> 4) damage reduction was in order. I'd much prefer the price fixing thing I suggested (perhaps together with a dretch buff).

For your defense computer point, I would rather not have an essential ability such as the radar hinged on such a weak building. The radar is one of the key gains in stage 2. I have no issue with the defense computer being as it is. Perhaps, allow the defense computer to lock onto targets faster.

I know, but that's sort of the point, the DC then becomes more important. Helmets are absurdly useful anyway, 0.4x headshot damage is pretty good consolation for having to look after the DC to keep the radar.

The turrets suggestion is another workable idea, though tweaking would be required for how much.

Camping: It's going to happen no matter what. It's part of the game.

Yes, it absolutely is as things stand. It would just be nice if it wasn't.

Misc:
-  Sharing would be nice, but it's not a game changer. I doubt sharing will be enabled by default, but I'm sure it will come out in a couple of mods.
-  Evolving near humans: It is easily abusable: Go on the ceiling as dretch, get into the human base and evolve into a bigger human. Although (I'm not sure if this is implemented) being able   to evolve near the OM regardless of human presence would be nice.

Fair enough. Still, it would be nice if the range for the dreaded "NOT CAN HAS EVOLUTION" dialog was reduced. And yes, I very much like the idea of this being overridden on creep.

[Thoth]

1.  is fine in my opinion, just got to use it a lot.
2. I like the old  function better, it should be reverted, unless there's a huge balance issue involved. 
3. Like it, encourages new players to move around with their team instead of camping or running around by themselves.
4.
- Eh, maybe, auto sharing at the most, but probably only 1 evolve or 100 credits. Sharing in 1.1 just influenced camping and let new players just ask for evolves/credits instead of figuring out how to earn them.
-Yes
-Super annoying, I agree, anyone want to explain the balance issue?
-Yes please, I still get stuck wondering around the stock maps once in a while. Perhaps instead of the team overlay, we could have very simple images for the teammates in the mini map. For aliens, whatever class they are would be nice and humans would just be a little head like the ones in the forums  . And if it's not too much, a little health sign next to them or they blink or something when they need a  or need to be escorted to a or a  .

[c4]

Learn the map or go play cod.

[freezway]

dretch/rifle is fine, I could easily say either is OP.

DC issue is meh for me.

I want to be able to evolve near om, even if hummies are near.

You should get creds/evos for killing structures.

[jez]

Learn the map or go play cod.

Or any of the many other games which let you do this, because its not a bad idea. It takes a good number of hours of playing before you really know a map, I see no harm in making the learning curve easier.

[Meisseli]

Dretch vs rifle is indeed not balanced at all and on top of that it's really boring for the dretch to die those three times before getting a kill. After that humans already have a head start with massdrivers, lasguns and what not. I think rifle exceeds some of the weapons in human arsenal clearly for it's free cost, and I'd make it do 4 damage to solve the issue, so the dretch would still be easy to kill with the bigger guns, and especially shotgun would have more use.

I don't like your suggestion for the DC although I think the same, it needs to be changed some way or another. If it would buff turrets it should buff teslas too since most of the time turrets are more useful in 1.2 than teslas. Also I like giving it a bit more HP.

I think domination won't solve the issue from past experience, though I wait to test the new domination mode they're planning, if it turns out well.

Absolute no to share/donate. They have been discussed to death in past topics and the poor "sharing is caring" arguments don't really make for the negative effects share/donate have.

A mini-map was discussed once, and it would indeed be a nice add, but I'm not sure if they're planning on making one.

[SlackerLinux]

Dretch vs rifle is indeed not balanced at all and on top of that it's really boring for the dretch to die those three times before getting a kill. After that humans already have a head start with massdrivers, lasguns and what not. I think rifle exceeds some of the weapons in human arsenal clearly for it's free cost, and I'd make it do 4 damage to solve the issue, so the dretch would still be easy to kill with the bigger guns, and especially shotgun would have more use.

Agreed

I don't like your suggestion for the DC although I think the same, it needs to be changed some way or another. If it would buff turrets it should buff teslas too since most of the time turrets are more useful in 1.2 than teslas. Also I like giving it a bit more HP.

Agreed

I think domination won't solve the issue from past experience, though I wait to test the new domination mode they're planning, if it turns out well.

domination sounds fun but yes imho not a fix the only fix is to actually leave your base lead your team by example

Absolute no to share/donate. They have been discussed to death in past topics and the poor "sharing is caring" arguments don't really make for the negative effects share/donate have.

i used to like share/donate but after playing more 1.2 my opinions have changed altho i do miss the most useful feature of it which is being able to give players jsut connecting extra evos/creds cause its a real pain to get some evos when your a dretch and humans have luci's chain or flamer etc and vice versa

A mini-map was discussed once, and it would indeed be a nice add, but I'm not sure if they're planning on making one.

i think the hud is cluttered enough but if you can find a good spot for it i guess

comments in yellow

[UniqPhoeniX]

1. I agree that dretches are much weaker for their value then rifles. Yes for lowering dretch value, even lower then 150, perhaps slightly increasing bite. Slightly lower rifle repeat might help too, since it is too strong for a free weapon. Don't want to change dmg/clip, since it will require re-adapting to killing aliens and especially their buildings.
Don't want to change helmet/armor value now since it will have a huge effect on gameplay.

2. DC still needs slight improvements, but don't want radar to depend on it (maybe non-local minimap info could require it if that was ever implemented). Slight heal rate increase or perhaps the old suggestion of a total heal rate would help. A slight hp increase would be nice too, but not to over 240.

3. YES for domination (if it is done right)! Ofc it won't eliminate camping but it will solve it as in make it a non-issue, since the other team will be able to keep attacking without ending up as all dretches/naked rifles. It will also make the gameplay a LOT more dynamic.

4. No share.
Don't really care about larmour dmg mod change.
Don't see evolve range as an issue other then when humans are in your base, so yes to nearby om/egg overriding it (half creep range or less).
Yes to minimap, tho it's probably a looooong way off.

Meis: someone is planning domination? Thought every such mod died . Changing repeat 90 -> 110 gives pretty much same DPS as dmg 5 -> 4 while maintaining dmg/clip.
Slacker: minimap could replace (at least most of) team overlay.

[jez]

Cheers for the replies.

Uniq, yup that was pretty much my exact reasoning for prefering the rof nerf over the damage one. Also my proposed larmour + helm cost changes really are not that game changing - they only affect the overall price of the armour/helmet if you're using the rifle. It is effectively a rifle price fix, not an armour one.

Looks like no one agrees with my DC proposal. I still like it, it seems pretty analogous to the alien's reliance on the booster for poison, but fair enough.

Sharing I'll read up on a bit more then.


I've updated my first post with a few things.

[Meisseli]

I'm thinking that if this phase is as stable as the last and nothing else important comes up we can start testing some form of domination. I've always wanted it as an optional mode but the main gameplay needs to be finished first.

I guess domination is going to be tested at least.

I think the armour prices don't need any fixing, but it indeed sounds like the rate of fire decrease of rifle would be better than reducing damage.

DC again, if it's kept as a repairing structure I would buff the heal rate to 6 and 240HP sounds nice too.

[Haraldx]

DC is underpowered, but in 1.1 MANY people didn't use it, as it cost extremely much bps and then the teslas cost even more bps. I really want to see it having something more then just the healing.

Camping - it's a good idea, to camp for 1 attack wave, make 2 counter attacks and then just camp for 1 alien/human wave again. The ones who camp all game, just lose the fun and everything, so it doesn't matter. Doesn't need changes.

Minimap - yes, please! Just an option to disable/enable it, please.

[Conzul]

Yeah I'd like to see the dretch value lowered, or rifle changed a bit.

DC's fine, idk what all the noise is about.

Useful as a minimap may be, I don't think we need it. Or make sure it has a toggle at least.

Sharing is for hippies.

[Norfenstein]

I appreciate the thoughtful post, jez.

1 - Dretch vs rifle balance:
This is an extremely crucial part of gameplay to get right, not just for s1 but for the entire match

I don't think you (and everyone else arguing this) are really considering the entire match though, or even just all of stage 1. If the dretch really were overvalued I don't see how humans would be reaching stage 2, on average, at about the same time that aliens do (a little over six minutes). But they do, and in large games stage 1 is the least balanced part of the game, and it favors aliens.

I do worry that in ideal matches with only highly skilled, disciplined players that the dretch might be brokenly underpowered, but not only do I have zero data to back this up, but when I do see highly skilled players evenly matched I'm usually surprised at how well the alien players do. If I were to redesign Tremulous from the ground up I would include something for the dretch to make dodging more skill-based, but such a fundamental change isn't going to happen for 1.2.

2 - The DC:
I'm proposing a secondary function for the DC: as the key to the radar in human helmets. Basically, if there's no DC up, the radar doesn't function.

This is actually a pretty clever idea, and sort of fits in with having the DC doing something that give humans some kind of tactical advantage, which I had wanted (I think what I'd like most is for everyone to have a mini-map and make the DC populate it with more information for humans). Unfortunately your idea is a non-starter because it would remove more fun than it added: having a radar is much more enjoyable than denying the other team from having one.

As a side issue, the building itself feels too fragile. 190HP doesn't even require a goon to use his 3rd barb! I think being a meaningful building should go hand in hand with a modicum of resilience, perhaps 240-300HP would be good.

I had considered lowering the price to 6, but decided against it because it might've turned DCs into human barricades (could make three of them off of one repeater). More health might do the same thing.

• I'd like to be able to share excess credits amongst my team. Its annoying letting them go to waste, and it feels like those credits have somehow got the right to be used.

So go use them? Stop your camping and attack the human base!

• I dislike how the multiplier for light armour varies as 0.3, 0.35 or 0.4 depending on angle. It feels needlessly overcomplicated - is there a good reason to not just replace it with 0.35?

Nope! There was just never a good (enough) reason to change it either.

• I'd like to be able to evolve nearer humans or their buildings. Its a fairly annoying limitation, and I can't really see how it could get abused. [edit, suggestion by celestial_rage - override the evolution denial when near the OM or on creep]

I think of it as a minor reward to humans for being aggressive.

• I'd like an optional mini map in the corner of the screen.

Me too.

[edit - new addition] • Initial credits for players joining a match late. If you join when your team is s2, you get an initial free 1 evo / 222 credits. If you join when your team is s3, this is 2 evos / 444 credits. Not huge, but means you can be useful from the start, especially for aliens who would otherwise have to patiently dretch/build for a while.

Seems pretty unnecessary to me. It's not like you have to actually kill a battlesuit, just damage enough of the ones that your teammates kill until you accumulate a whole frag.

I guess domination is going to be tested at least.

If I can get buy-in from the other devs, that is.

[jez]

Many thanks for the reply! It has provided much food for thought.

I don't think you [...] are really considering the entire match though, or even just all of stage 1. If the dretch really were overvalued I don't see how humans would be reaching stage 2, on average, at about the same time that aliens do (a little over six minutes). But they do, and in large games stage 1 is the least balanced part of the game, and it favors aliens.

Interesting, but I'd probably ascribe the decent balance/slight alien bias at s1 to other areas of alien strength making up for the dretch's weakness. This variety is in itself not really a concern (if anything, quite the opposite!), but the default alien class being not especially fun at times due to not having much of a fighting chance is.

But yes, fiddling with the dretch value would almost certainly mess with how fast the teams get to s2, and if its pretty even at the moment, I understand your reticence to change things.

2 - The DC:
I'm proposing a secondary function for the DC: as the key to the radar in human helmets. Basically, if there's no DC up, the radar doesn't function.

This is actually a pretty clever idea, and sort of fits in with having the DC doing something that give humans some kind of tactical advantage, which I had wanted (I think what I'd like most is for everyone to have a mini-map and make the DC populate it with more information for humans). Unfortunately your idea is a non-starter because it would remove more fun than it added: having a radar is much more enjoyable than denying the other team from having one.

Hrm, I guess. Its just perspective though, perhaps if we weren't used to the default assumption that helmet = the right to a radar, then the DC would be a "fun" way to augment it. Still, we are, so your point stands.

The minimap idea I like, it ticks all the boxes you mentioned nicely. Someone can have a headache thinking about what "More information for humans" should mean later.

As a side issue, the building itself feels too fragile. 190HP doesn't even require a goon to use his 3rd barb! I think being a meaningful building should go hand in hand with a modicum of resilience, perhaps 240-300HP would be good.

I had considered lowering the price to 6, but decided against it because it might've turned DCs into human barricades (could make three of them off of one repeater). More health might do the same thing.

I'd be surprised if either of these changes lead to effective DC barricade spam. You don't see this sort of thing very much with armouries at the moment, which have a fair bit more HP and blocking potential for their cost. This kind of barricading also blocks lines of sight for defenders and turrets, so aliens can have a fairly easy time taking them down.

Building 3 DCs from one repeater would mean that they had the disadvantage of being out of range of the RC, and therefore robbed of one of their more useful functions (increased RC zap damage). { DC + DC + [8BP] } on a repeater sounds interesting too. Imagine one of these set ups slightly down the atcs hall covering a forward outpost and much of the main base. More building options is always interesting.

• I'd like to be able to share excess credits amongst my team. Its annoying letting them go to waste, and it feels like those credits have somehow got the right to be used.

So go use them? Stop your camping and attack the human base!

Fair point - wanting to avoid spilling evos does encourage more exciting gameplay. Hadn't thought of that.

• I dislike how the multiplier for light armour varies as 0.3, 0.35 or 0.4 depending on angle. It feels needlessly overcomplicated - is there a good reason to not just replace it with 0.35?

Nope! There was just never a good (enough) reason to change it either.

Fair enough. Not everyone is as OCD as me I suppose.

• I'd like to be able to evolve nearer humans or their buildings. Its a fairly annoying limitation, and I can't really see how it could get abused. [edit, suggestion by celestial_rage - override the evolution denial when near the OM or on creep]

I think of it as a minor reward to humans for being aggressive.

True, but an annoyance nonetheless. :/

While I'm on the topic of these, would it be possible to change the dialog for these (and simillar) from being a gameplay interrupting black box in the middle of the screen to a console message up top?

[edit - new addition] • Initial credits for players joining a match late.

Seems pretty unnecessary to me. It's not like you have to actually kill a battlesuit, just damage enough of the ones that your teammates kill until you accumulate a whole frag.

By my reckoning, It takes nearer 3 evos to get you going by the time bsuits are stomping. Thats the equivalent of killing one whole bsuit yourself, which means probably contributing about 10 bites to bsuit deaths. Thats a non trivial bit of patient dretching if facing sensible (or even worse, camping) humans - getting those bites in isn't simple, and often the human simply won't end up dead.

Yes, its only a few minutes, and no, it wouldn't be strictly necessary, but it would be an improvement in my eyes for no cost in terms of gameplay. Its also one which would be likely appreciated especially by newer players who might have more trouble getting off the mark in these situations.

[Demolution]

While I'm on the topic of these, would it be possible to change the dialog for these (and simillar) from being a gameplay interrupting black box in the middle of the screen to a console message up top?

You already can. Go to, Options > Player > Disable Warning Dialogs > Print To Console

[jez]

[...]

You already can. Go to, Options > Player > Disable Warning Dialogs > Print To Console

Awesome, thanks.

[Meisseli]

The DC being used as a blocking structure is indeed a poor argument, since an armoury costs just the same and has 420 HP. If DC were to have 240HP the only difference would be for it to require 3 snipes instead of 2 and 3 tyrant chomps instead of 2. I see that only as a positive thing.

As to the Dretch vs Rifle, making rifle weaker or dretch stronger would really benefit the whole game. It is indeed way harder for example to a dretch to gain evos in every part of the game, especially in late game compared to rifle. I really don't see meddling with the rifle to make it require 1-2 more shots or time equivalent to those to kill a dretch for example would really be as balance-throwing as you think, Norfenstein. And if you would want it, nerfing the rifle would have the benefit of not changing the S2/S3 balance that much.

As to how nerf the rifle, the rate of fire style is the best since it still takes the same amount of bullets to kill each alien with a rifle, so reloading would stay the same. 90 to 110 sounds fine, making it require 6,11 "current shots" to kill a dretch, and bringing it's DPS down to a more sensible 45,45 (lasgun is only 40, for example). Or if that's too drastic, 100 repeat would be 5,6 "current shots" to kill a dretch and 50 DPS.

[Celestial_Rage]

But, nerfing the rifle will make rifle worse against the larger aliens It makes more sense to just increase dretch HP and attack. I think 1 torso and 1 head shot should be sufficient with perhaps a 5 hp health boost to make dretch powerful enough to take on most rifles in 1v1 situations.

[Saliva]

But, nerfing the rifle will make rifle worse against the larger aliens It makes more sense to just increase dretch HP and attack. I think 1 torso and 1 head shot should be sufficient with perhaps a 5 hp health boost to make dretch powerful enough to take on most rifles in 1v1 situations.

It would be better for the game because then there is more incentive to use other weapons. Shotgun for example is outclassed by rifle at the moment and thus useless.

[Celestial_Rage]

I suppose, as I never use shotgun, but even if rifle was nerfed, I wouldn't use shotgun simply because of the inaccuracy. The only time I find shotgun a viable option is during S1 against goons, and even then, only when I can't afford a mass driver.

[Haraldx]

Make spread for the freakin' rifle. In full auto you can hit all 5 shots without problems. Make a spread - bigger aliens won't be affected as they are bigger, easier targets. + no more full auto sniper rifle with 30 rounds a mag.

[Norfenstein]

I really don't see meddling with the rifle to make it require 1-2 more shots or time equivalent to those to kill a dretch for example would really be as balance-throwing as you think, Norfenstein.

Then I guess you weren't playing or don't remember when we had the dretch at 30 health, or when its hitbox was smaller, because ostensibly minor changes like these really do make a huge difference -- and no less so at stage three than at stage one. In fact, it was the inability of stage three humans to make headway against swarms of dretches that ultimately convinced me to weaken the dretch.

[Meisseli]

I really don't see meddling with the rifle to make it require 1-2 more shots or time equivalent to those to kill a dretch for example would really be as balance-throwing as you think, Norfenstein.

Then I guess you weren't playing or don't remember when we had the dretch at 30 health, or when its hitbox was smaller, because ostensibly minor changes like these really do make a huge difference -- and no less so at stage three than at stage one. In fact, it was the inability of stage three humans to make headway against swarms of dretches that ultimately convinced me to weaken the dretch.

Back when GPP was still clumsy we (ddos) did experiment with 35hp dretches with the current hitbox. 35hp dretch was roughly equal to a rifle.

And because of the staging reasons I did present the rifle change as the primary choice, in the text you quoted, too.

[jm82792]

Smaller bounding box for dretch?
That would help it get killed less.

[baybal]

Then I guess you weren't playing or don't remember when we had the dretch at 30 health, or when its hitbox was smaller, because ostensibly minor changes like these really do make a huge difference -- and no less so at stage three than at stage one. In fact, it was the inability of stage three humans to make headway against swarms of dretches that ultimately convinced me to weaken the dretch.

Well, that's pretty much actual for naked machineguns too. Especially when we are talking about open spaces. 2 machinegunners can easily kill a rant on a mid range on maps like karith. 5*60 and do the math.

[techhead]

Reading through this thread, I decided to log back on to the Trem forums for the first time in years.(!)
I liked the idea of raising the repeat rate for the rifle, but what hit me most is the need for navigational aid.
I think simply some sort of compass would benefit greatly, without much Hud clutter or extra artwork. Maybe make the Humans' compass use universal coordinates and the Aliens' compass point towards the Overmind.
It may not sound like much, but I honestly think it would help.