Stuff to make a HD tremulous

[Odin]

Most games use the .DDS format for textures, they can be decompressed on the fly by the GPU.

The compression is patented though...

[CATAHA]

P2P will fix all your woes.

Nope. I dont need brick size cellular phone if other phone models can provide same functions with smaller size. Not question of 'how hard to download it'. =)

[gimhael]

Most games use the .DDS format for textures, they can be decompressed on the fly by the GPU.

The compression is patented though...

Yes, but the game engine does not need to decompress the data, and there are free tools available for compression which have licensed the S3 patent.

[Cadynum]

Tremulous installer gonna be 2Gb size then =D

The stock maps are about 50MB now, i highly doubt they would increase in size by a multiple of 40.
Even if they were 2GB is not a problem.

[Pazuzu]

Even if we took the brute-force approach and stored everything with some batshit-insanely high-quality format like Targa, keep in mind everything gets compressed in the pk3 files, and textures don't take up the whole archive as it is.

[CATAHA]

The stock maps are about 50MB now, i highly doubt they would increase in size by a multiple of 40.
Even if they were 2GB is not a problem.

When user downloading game of such size he expect something more than pack of high-res art.

Even if we took the brute-force approach and stored everything with some batshit-insanely high-quality format like Targa, keep in mind everything gets compressed in the pk3 files, and textures don't take up the whole archive as it is.

Live example: Map with jpegs 4mb. Same map with original tgas 29mb. Not so huge visual difference. When i conecting to slow server i should wait x7 more time to download map. =D

[Pazuzu]

Even if we took the brute-force approach and stored everything with some batshit-insanely high-quality format like Targa, keep in mind everything gets compressed in the pk3 files, and textures don't take up the whole archive as it is.

Live example: Map with jpegs 4mb. Same map with original tgas 29mb. Not so huge visual difference. When i conecting to slow server i should wait x7 more time to download map. =D

Ahem.

everything gets compressed in the pk3 files

[CATAHA]

Compressed jpegs = 4mb, compressed tgas = 29mb. Sure i noticed those values compressed in pk3. Or you saw maps in other kinds?

[Pazuzu]

What resolution are you using?

[CATAHA]

Its just example, lol. Resolutions vary from texture, but commonly it from 128x256 to 512x512.

[Cadynum]

PNG?

[Nux]

Have you actually looked through the asset files? Textures are nothing compared to model files.

The tyrant model for example is 1,846 KB compared to it's texture which is just 77 KB.

It seems like on one hand you're complaining about the slight increase in texture size required for a big visual difference, and on the other hand you want XReal and all the fancy graphics that would add MUCH more to the size. Nevermind that you then have to also recreate all the assets anyway...

[Tremulant]

Have you actually looked through the asset files? Textures are nothing compared to model files.

The tyrant model for example is 1,846 KB compared to it's texture which is just 77 KB.

It seems like on one hand you're complaining about the slight increase in texture size required for a big visual difference, and on the other hand you want XReal and all the fancy graphics that would add MUCH more to the size. Nevermind that you then have to also recreate all the assets anyway...

Erm, yep, welcome to discussions involving CATAHA, fun eh?

[Asvarox]

Have you actually looked through the asset files? Textures are nothing compared to model files.

Zipped tyrant is 1.2 MB. Anyway, go compare amount of textures and amount of models. Also tyrant seems be one of the "heaviest" models. I guess all models put together wouldn't take more than 15-20MB (simple guess, as weapons md3's take less than 50KB each), while texture set for arachnid is 8MB.

PNG's don't seem to be that lighter than TGA's (400KB first, 460KB second in zips) still being twice as large as JPG file.

Sure, the installer size is not that much of an issue, yet is it worth the effort? I think most people wouldn't really notice the difference between jpgs and tgas without good comparison and still the fact is that 700MB looks a bit better than 1.2GB.

[Pazuzu]

At the very least, we could save the JPGs with a higher quality setting. The increased file size might even get trimmed down a bit more with the pk3 compression.

[Tremulant]

At the very least, we could save the JPGs with a higher quality setting. The increased file size might even get trimmed down a bit more with the pk3 compression.

Only barely, if at all, some images may even grow but i suppose all those headers will give you a saving in bulk, anyway, JPEG compression works so well for most textures that the savings are big enough even when jpeg'd at quite high quality settings.

As asvarox mentions, the difference between TGA and PNG for our purposes is only really at what stage the compression is applied, it being practically the same compression method and raw data, yes zipping a TGA is somewhat less efficient but for the kind of resolutions we're talking about the size differences wont be huge.

JPEG artifacts, as with any other image quality deficiencies, will become more visible when the image is stretched across a model, but are they so noticeable that they'll be a problem if the texture's higher res to begin with, only jpeg'd the once and at a decent quality setting?

Where's this discussion going, anyway?

[Pazuzu]

Where's this discussion going, anyway?

I don't know, but this is where it should be going:

The Unvanquished is hosting a new community-driven project called TremHD, which aims to make assets for Tremulous clients that utilize bump mapping features, as well as implement better support for wide-screen displays.

The TremHD forums will serve as a roadmap for development, as well as a place to discuss and learn the techniques needed to make the new assets.

The project has not officially 'launched' yet, but I would love to get some feedback on the site, and get some additional help setting things up if anyone has time!

[Nux]

Have you actually looked through the asset files? Textures are nothing compared to model files.

Zipped tyrant is 1.2 MB. Anyway, go compare amount of textures and amount of models. Also tyrant seems be one of the "heaviest" models. I guess all models put together wouldn't take more than 15-20MB (simple guess, as weapons md3's take less than 50KB each), while texture set for arachnid is 8MB.

If you're complaining that I've used a heavy model as an example, then I find that funny. You acknowledge that the tyrant is indeed a case where we can improve the texture assets with little cost to file size? Well then it wouldn't matter if there were loads of textures compared to models, we've found a case that can be improved upon. I pressume you thought improving a game meant trying to fix the parts that don't need fixing.

The zipped model is indeed less than the non-zipped file. This isn't news to me. The bigger file compresses better than the smaller file. This still isn't news to me. The comparative size between the two files in both states is the same to about 0.01 difference in the ratios.

Also, you need to factor in the degree of visual improvement. For example, the basi has a tiny texture size (even when summing the sizes of the base and adv version) compared to it's model size which is more than the tyrant's. Yet the texture looks good and I would go as far as to say it's the best looking alien by far.

As for maps, I looked at ATCS for example and all it's textures combined where a quarter of the size of the .bsp file. If you find a map where the textures add up to more, chances are they've gone WAY over the top with pictures.

[cron]

I want to introduce everyone to a project I've been working on, and would like to get your advice on some things...

http://tremhd.unvanquished.net/forum/

TremHD is an open-assets based project to make new assets for Tremulous using high resolution textures with bump mapping, aiming to make Tremulous look better graphically (overall and also particularly on widescreen monitors). These assets could then be freely used by any Tremulous client.

TremHD will focus heavily on educating the average Tremulous player / new modder on some of the finer points of graphical asset creation using open source tools (primarily Blender and GIMP).

Every few months there's a thread just like this, which makes me somewhat hoping for an XreaL port of Trem. Every one of these threads ends disappointingly with nothing.

Until someone(with actual knowledge in how this stuff works) does something to make that a reality, you're wasting your time.

Well there have been not only threads but also projects to port Trem over to Xreal, i know of the Tremfusion attempt to include a Xreal-based renderer and the Xtr3m project.

I think the big problem with this kind of project is that they lack a clearly defined goal. Usually they start with 'we want some nicer graphics', but then the want-to-have list is expanded (correct physics, vehicles, scriptable maps, game modes, new weapons/classes, whatever) until the project is so big that it is completely impossible to do with the available people.

With these statements in mind, the goal of TremHD is purely to make new assets for Tremulous that could work nicely with any engine (and not much else), but we do hope to use Gimhael's bump mapping code for testing assets, and will continue to advocate graphical improvements to Tremulous, regardless of client.

I believe that very clear goals and reputable names at the helm to educate can make this a successful community driven project, so I'd like to know if some of the people here would be interested in being project leaders and advisors.
Please check out the site, and feel free to PM me to get involved today!

[Tremulant]

I've created some truly hideous textures while attempting to produce a replacement for the atcs outside floor, needless to say i didn't succeed but if you can find a use for any do feel free.

[jm82792]

Procedural goodness........
Takes lots of time to get good procedurals and lots of layers.

And I'm interested in helping with your cause cron and know how to use Blender

[cron]

Also, you need to factor in the degree of visual improvement. For example, the basi has a tiny texture size (even when summing the sizes of the base and adv version) compared to it's model size which is more than the tyrant's. Yet the texture looks good and I would go as far as to say it's the best looking alien by far.

The size of the basi model is so much bigger than the tyrant because of the large amount of animation frames it has.
I think this was not intentional, and was just a result of the basi being made first, before Overflow had a lot of experience animating (I think).

Also, I think the quality of the texture is just an issue of MoP vs. Stannum's texturing skills.

[Nux]

You make a good point. It would indeed seem that animation is the overriding factor here. So here we have another thing to be aware of when it comes to improving assets and particularly with file size (if it is indeed an issue for you). Would I be right in saying that the use of skeletons would vastly reduce the cost of storing animation info? I would guess so because a much smaller number of points are used to describe the animation and if formats like md5 also interpolate heavily, the size could be brought down further.

You see CATAHA, this is the kind of argument you should be making.

[Pazuzu]

Wouldn't skeletons require armatures, which MD3 doesn't support? IIRC that's why they're stored as vertex animations in the first place.

[Nux]

skeletons = armatures

Yes, md3 doesn't have this. md5 does though and change of model file format that is the sort of change that is being proposed here.

[gimhael]

Well, I have implemented an IQM loader for tremulous, (it is a much nicer format than MD5), so you could use skeletal models in Tremulous already. The problem is that if you can't switch all players over to the new model format at the same time you'll have to include *both* in the pk3s.

(Also if you want real skeletal animation, i.e. that the game can animate individual bones, then you'll need a new renderer API and consequently different QVMs too.)

[cron]

Well, I have implemented an IQM loader for tremulous, (it is a much nicer format than MD5), so you could use skeletal models in Tremulous already. The problem is that if you can't switch all players over to the new model format at the same time you'll have to include *both* in the pk3s.

Awesome! I was hoping someone would implement it! Blender export scripts for IQM are included in the TADA! package.

[jm82792]

MD5 or something would would be sweet.
Got a few models that could be skinned and texture painted eventually.

[cron]

At the very least, we could save the JPGs with a higher quality setting. The increased file size might even get trimmed down a bit more with the pk3 compression.

Only barely, if at all, some images may even grow but i suppose all those headers will give you a saving in bulk, anyway, JPEG compression works so well for most textures that the savings are big enough even when jpeg'd at quite high quality settings.

As asvarox mentions, the difference between TGA and PNG for our purposes is only really at what stage the compression is applied, it being practically the same compression method and raw data, yes zipping a TGA is somewhat less efficient but for the kind of resolutions we're talking about the size differences wont be huge.

JPEG artifacts, as with any other image quality deficiencies, will become more visible when the image is stretched across a model, but are they so noticeable that they'll be a problem if the texture's higher res to begin with, only jpeg'd the once and at a decent quality setting?

Where's this discussion going, anyway?

Yes the ZIP compression for the PK3s basically does nothing to an already compressed file format like JPEG or PNG. TGA supports RLE compression, but is not truly lossless, and I don't believe Q3* supports some of the newer .TGA specifications.

Huge space savings could be achieved by using separate images for specular and alpha channels (possibly as 8-Bit PCX even - see these posts on the OA project forums about this).

Ideally, I think a new format(s) should be used, especially when you need to add things like normalmaps images into the mix

As gimhael suggested, .DDS or even something resembling Valve's .VTF would work.

[Tremulant]

TGA supports RLE compression, but is not truly lossless

Oh, how so?

And what does an 8bit pcx achieve that an 8bit png wouldn't? i'm a little surprised to see pcx mentioned at all thesedays.