Abusing spectator (/team s)

[SirDude]

There are 4 kinds of TKs in trem.

Griefing: killing a teammate to annoy them.

Natural: Turning a corner just to have a lusi hit you.

Intended/Required: both the TK'd and TKer, intended and or needed a teammate dead.

Independent: something that is a mix or beyond a standard Tk and may involve something outside trem.

death and TK are game mechanics, /team s is a game TOOL intended to switch teams and not bypass death or other  mechanics  

[WoGoMo]

My point is, humans can't change their weapon from rifle to ckit without the help of an armory. So in order to get around that limitation in game play, players sometimes ask teammates to TK them so that they can get a builder faster instead of using /kill.

If using /team s to leave the team and rejoin as builder is not legal, then neither should intentional tk in order to gain a builder when they respawn. In other words, the weapons that humans have are there for a purpose: to kill aliens and their buildables, not as a cheap shortcut to gain a builder when your team is fucked.

[Tremulant]

We're not talking about basi grab here if you're bright enough to "get" that. We're talking about people in base when there's no enemy near enough to get to them. As for using /team s for escaping basi grab, I totally agree it is wrong and I've never ever done (nor would I ever do) that.

Where's the difference? both exploit a function that's external to gameplay to work around an intended limitation, besides, the current proposed fix fixes both offences.
TKs are different, they're not instant, they require teamwork, they hand points to the enemy if the victim has taken damage from the enemy prior to the TK, they are something that's possible using gameplay mechanics.

[WoGoMo]

TKs are different, they're not instant, they require teamwork, they hand points to the enemy if the victim has taken damage from the enemy prior to the TK, they are something that's possible using gameplay mechanics.

If that is so, why then is there a /kill command for suicide with timer there? Humans do not heal on their own, and dying from /kill still gives the previous attacker points. To me this sort of TK is only a way to exploit weaknesses in gameplay mechanics to give yourself an advantage instead of having to wait 20 secs.

[Tremulant]

I can see you're struggling here. a TK is fairly quick, but only when someone knows you want it and is around to cause it, /kill is for emergencies where there's no one to, for instance, unstick you. Why do you think /kill has a timer if you feel that transporting yourself out of the game and back in again in a split second is entirely reasonable, do you suppose it might be because it has potential for abuse by people trying to rob an alien of its kill, even if you only use it to become a builder quickly?
Anyway, none of this matters, a 30sec limit on teamswitching, as proposed, will solve both issues.

[SirDude]

My point is, humans can't change their weapon from rifle to ckit without the help of an armory. So in order to get around that limitation in game play, players sometimes ask teammates to TK them so that they can get a builder faster instead of using /kill.

If using /team s to leave the team and rejoin as builder is not legal, then neither should intentional tk in order to gain a builder when they respawn. In other words, the weapons that humans have are there for a purpose: to kill aliens and their buildables, not as a cheap shortcut to gain a builder when your team is fucked.

its not about the end result, its about how you get there.

[Undeference]

I think its mostly because it wasn't noticed, since a big yellow !specme isn't printed across the screen. For some reason this didn't happen when people had to use the !specme command, I wonder why this practice is only materializing now...

People never had to use the !specme command; it was always redundant.

If using /team s to leave the team and rejoin as builder is not legal, then neither should intentional tk in order to gain a builder when they respawn. In other words, the weapons that humans have are there for a purpose: to kill aliens and their buildables, not as a cheap shortcut to gain a builder when your team is fucked.

That argument implicitly relies on friendly fire (and suicide) being a completely overlooked game mechanic, which is clearly false.

If that is so, why then is there a /kill command for suicide with timer there? Humans do not heal on their own, and dying from /kill still gives the previous attacker points. To me this sort of TK is only a way to exploit weaknesses in gameplay mechanics to give yourself an advantage instead of having to wait 20 secs.

The suicide timer guarantees a minimum time between deciding to die and dying, which is inherent in being killed by a teammate.

[WoGoMo]

My argument is based upon the idea that since g_dretchPunt is always on there exists no way of having teammates from kill you should the need arise. Unless there exists another option to use, then there is no level playing field here. I doubt very much that g_dretchPunt was made as a mechanism to prevent dretches from quickly dying and respawning as a granger should the need arise.

It is as simple as that! No struggling is needed to grasp the fact that there is a huge problem here. Yet, so many here are more in favor of a game balance more biased towards humans. Humans already have at least 3 options at hand (unless I've left out any): Wrong Place, Falling from gravity, TK. Two out of three which can never happen to a dretch.

Since this team switch patch will probably go into trem soon, I foresee the balance is going to be even further biased towards humans.

Why do you think /kill has a timer if you feel that transporting yourself out of the game and back in again in a split second is entirely reasonable, do you suppose it might be because it has potential for abuse by people trying to rob an alien of its kill, even if you only use it to become a builder quickly?

For the same reason that you said that /kill is only for emergencies when there's nobody around to kill you. In case you haven't noticed dretches cannot be killed by teammates, and going spec is not without a time penalty. There is still a spawn queue when you get back into the team. And sometimes when the team is full, you have to wait much much longer to rejoin. It is not as you say a "split second" thing.

Anyway, none of this matters, a 30sec limit on teamswitching, as proposed, will solve both issues.

The 30 second limit on teamswitching does not solve human players escaping basi grab using /team s unless you are grabbed within much less than 30 seconds of joining a team which is not very likely.

If using /team s to leave the team and rejoin as builder is not legal, then neither should intentional tk in order to gain a builder when they respawn. In other words, the weapons that humans have are there for a purpose: to kill aliens and their buildables, not as a cheap shortcut to gain a builder when your team is fucked.

That argument implicitly relies on friendly fire (and suicide) being a completely overlooked game mechanic, which is clearly false.

Not really. How did you come to that conclusion? There's currently no way to tk a dretch when there clearly should be. Dretch punt was incorporated only to solve the problem of accidental TK, not intentional TK.

If that is so, why then is there a /kill command for suicide with timer there? Humans do not heal on their own, and dying from /kill still gives the previous attacker points. To me this sort of TK is only a way to exploit weaknesses in gameplay mechanics to give yourself an advantage instead of having to wait 20 secs.

The suicide timer guarantees a minimum time between deciding to die and dying, which is inherent in being killed by a teammate.

It doesnt take 20 seconds to kill a teammate.

[Anonymoose]

as wogo said. a 30 second teamswitch timer wont change much, people can still use /team s to cheat death (and basilisks).

sometimes i get a phonecall or something and to save face i use /team s, in times like this, it is nice to be able to go to spectator without delay, regardless of the situation.
i think this whole thing is a very minor problem that doesn't need to be solved.
the worst use for /team s would have to be to escape basi grab or escape death. adding a 30 second delay wouldn't change much there, people could also just as easily use a /quit or /disconnect bind.
and to use it to change to a granger, im sure it would still be quicker than 20 seconds to use /disconnect then rejoin and continue.
now i pity anyone who is pathetic enough to actually use /team s or /disconnect or /quit to avoid death, but i am merely trying to point out why attempting to STOP people using this 'unethical' method of going from dretch to granger is unnecessary and will probably cause more annoyance than good.

[Tremulant]

I thought that being locked out of your team for 30seconds + spawn queue delay might cause some considerable frustration, especially if the team's in the middle of a rush or defending from one, but admittedly a statwhore isn't likely to care, as long as they avoided death.
So, removal of credits or evos, instant donation of kill value to the opposite team?

[WoGoMo]

I thought that being locked out of your team for 30seconds + spawn queue delay might cause some considerable frustration, especially if the team's in the middle of a rush or defending from one, but admittedly a statwhore isn't likely to care, as long as they avoided death.
So, removal of credits or evos, instant donation of kill value to the opposite team?

Lol. This is getting even more and more ridiculous. Well, anyway, the 30 second time limit for team change does nothing really. I sometimes go to spec when I receive a phone call regardless of what class I am. Donation of credits in any form whatsoever is even more retarded. Most people leave their team when it seems that they're about to lose. So, LOL... Donating their credits to the winning team will fix ALL problems.

(Dont think I have laughed this hard since this silly thread was started)

EDIT: On the other hand, removal of credits, in the amount that the player is worth (e.g. 180 credits or equivalent for a dretch going to spec) wouldnt be so bad.

[Meisseli]

Since this team switch patch will probably go into trem soon, I foresee the balance is going to be even further biased towards humans.

Haha. Now you're really at it, the patch will send balance to oblivion, surely!

Teamkilling isn't instant and has penalties, as is the case with every other method but /team s. Like it or not, it's not part of the gameplay.

How to suicide as a dretch quickly? Come on, you surely must have some imagination left in that brain of yours. The nearest human/turret/tesla helps a ton.

[F50]

A 30 second teamswitch timer wont change much, people can still use /team s to cheat death (and basilisks).

The current solution works, however, in that it prevents people from using /team s (since its better to use /kill generally) except in particularly audacious cases, which are much easier to notice (and kick for).

If using /team s to leave the team and rejoin as builder is not legal, then neither should intentional tk in order to gain a builder when they respawn. In other words, the weapons that humans have are there for a purpose: to kill aliens and their buildables, not as a cheap shortcut to gain a builder when your team is fucked.

That argument implicitly relies on friendly fire (and suicide) being a completely overlooked game mechanic, which is clearly false.

Not really. How did you come to that conclusion? There's currently no way to tk a dretch when there clearly should be. Dretch punt was incorporated only to solve the problem of accidental TK, not intentional TK.

You're just trying to find an edge case now. Dretches were having problems with accidentally getting TKed. It is far more beneficial, for dretches, to be unable to be TKed, than to be able to suicide very quickly (by teammate). Personally I'd like to see what would happen if dretchpunt wasn't always on, but I fear it would be annoying in general. Also, dretches can suicide (at almost no cost to themselves) in usually less than 10 seconds by turrets anyways. Furthermore, saying that in some cases (dretch) TKing was an annoyance that needed to be solved, does not at all negate the fact that "friendly fire (and suicide) is not a completely overlooked game mechanic".

In any case, the statement "I think we should be able to do X, therefore I'm going to circumvent the game to allow me to do X" is...not good.

[WoGoMo]

The current solution works, however, in that it prevents people from using /team s (since its better to use /kill generally) except in particularly audacious cases, which are much easier to notice (and kick for).

Works only if admins notice it. Which in most cases they probably wont.

In any case, the statement "I think we should be able to do X, therefore I'm going to circumvent the game to allow me to do X" is...not good.

Your words, not mine.

[Anonymoose]

i agree that /team s can be abused in all the ways touched on in this thread, but i do not think this need a 'fix' as it is not a very common problem, how often is this actually an issue? perhaps it should just be one of those against the rules things like glitch building, sure its possible but its not tolerated and it should be left to admins to deal with exploiters. any fix for this will more often be annoying when used legitimately than it will prevent exploitation of it.

[WoGoMo]

i agree that /team s can be abused in all the ways touched on in this thread, but i do not think this need a 'fix' as it is not a very common problem, how often is this actually an issue? perhaps it should just be one of those against the rules things like glitch building, sure its possible but its not tolerated and it should be left to admins to deal with exploiters. any fix for this will more often be annoying when used legitimately than it will prevent exploitation of it.

I am fine with using /kill and have been using it a lot from the time I began playin. In fact, I only started using /team s (only as dretch sitting comfortably in base usually just seconds after spawning btw) since probably around 3 months. Since then, none of the admins have warned me even though they clearly noticed it since they publicly said they were spectating me. In any case, the aforementioned pseudo-fix of 30 seconds between team switching isn't really necessary, as "/team s" is clearly too controversial to use now. For the game itself, I would rather they state it clearly in the rules. For myself, I'd rather just go die on a ret, use /kill or find other ways of dying rather than be called a cheater by people who clearly are unable to grasp that it is just an alternative way that doesn't affect gameplay (at least in the way that I use it).

As for Lava Croft's whining, he only does it to get back at me for calling him a dumbass (which he is for getting all worked up over what spectators say at the end of a game). He seems to have this problem with any spectator saying anything about the game even if it's for laughs and does not amount to spying or affect gameplay in any way (such as at the end of a game when one team wins).

More specifically, he gets all foamy-mouthed and abusive when I comment that there was a bad builder on the team he wasn't on, possibly because he has this chip on his shoulder and needs the world to think he only wins because he is uber-pro. I dont see why he has to get all riled up about it though, since he's actually a very good player on either humans or aliens. Perhaps he suffers from low self esteem and is overcompensating.

[SirDude]

are you forgetting that that 30 sec time will...

someone might take your player slot on humans OR humans will still have more players then aliens and you will be forced to join aliens!


why fix it?
a better question is why not fix it?

[Celestial_Rage]

Since you guys touched the topic if Tks, would/should tk'ing the builder to circumvent the build timer be something punishable by admins?

[David]

Back in the day I used to see human builders jumping to death on transit a lot.  IMO this and the TK thing are grey areas.

An easy fix for that would be to just say the build timer keeps ticking post-death and you can't join the spawn queue until it's done.

[Undeference]

Dretch punting can be turned on/off just like friendly fire.
And I'd like to see your proof for "[such and such largely unused cheat] is necessary for balance". If not for that, it's about time to lock this thread.

[Lava_Croft]

Thank you, forum dwellers. This thread is all awesome now. Except it isn't.

[WoGoMo]

Dretch punting can be turned on/off just like friendly fire.
And I'd like to see your proof for "[such and such largely unused cheat] is necessary for balance". If not for that, it's about time to lock this thread.

I had mentioned about dretch punting, but I do not promote the idea of simply turning g_dretchPunt off, but instead to provide an alternative way of TKing dretches since TK to get a builder is such a widely used practice and is considered OK. Perhaps by allowing the dretch itself to choose whether their client-side dretch punting is on or off, such as, perhaps a cg_dretchPunt cvar. This would be similar to cg_unlagged in the sense that you can turn it off on the client side. This would be wonderful for balance.

As for using /team s for gaining a builder, as tremulant mentioned, the patch proposed on the bug tracker fixes this particular minor "problem" (but does not handle real abuse), but really if it means that much to everyone that a dretch isn't considered as having committed suicide by /team s, why not instead penalize by deducting credits in the amount the player is worth. This IMO would be more fair as the 30 sec timer does absolutely nothing for people who actually use it as a cheat to escape death.

As for your request for proof, read on below to the third point in my answer to SirDude. Balance is implied here since there is clearly an OBVIOUS advantage for humans.

And last but not least, although I do not exactly agree with the 30 second timer for /team switching, all I would like is for the RULES to CLEARLY state that using /team s to gain a builder is NOT OK, and is punishable with a kick or ban. This way, everyone will be clear and whoever else sees it happening can report it or at least alert the player who is doing it that it is wrong in case he doesn't know it.

are you forgetting that that 30 sec time will...

someone might take your player slot on humans OR humans will still have more players then aliens and you will be forced to join aliens!

why fix it?
a better question is why not fix it?

Firstly, it doesnt take 30 secs for someone to take up your slot. (EDIT: Consider for a moment that this so-called cheat will most likely be used when the team is on the losing side (or apparently so). A lot of players leave their team once they feel that all hope is lost. In this sense, you might actually gain a free slot rather than lose it).

Secondly, it is not a fix as it only prevents it from being used for 1 purpose only, whereas other purposes of /team s should be more seriously viewed as a cheat.

Thirdly, using /team s to gain a builder to my knowledge has only ever happened when aliens are being pounded and there is no overmind, only eggs. Almost all the players are dretches and as you know there is no way to TK a dretch. There is a CLEAR advantage here for humans caught in a similar situation (no arm or rc and most players on the team spawned as a rifle instead of a CKit).

In conclusion, the proposed "fix" really does nothing useful.

[WoGoMo]

Back in the day I used to see human builders jumping to death on transit a lot.  IMO this and the TK thing are grey areas.

An easy fix for that would be to just say the build timer keeps ticking post-death and you can't join the spawn queue until it's done.

Sounds like a pretty good fix. Speed building by suicide is pretty low but I dont know if those who replied my arguments in previous posts will consider this as a cheat or not simply because it is a "gameplay mechanic".

[SirDude]

ok how about this, we remove /team s ALTOGETHER leaving nothing but /putteam and manual after death team switching.

there you happy? now it can't be abuse in any way possible.

[WoGoMo]

ok how about this, we remove /team s ALTOGETHER leaving nothing but /putteam and manual after death team switching.

there you happy? now it can't be abuse in any way possible.

LOL. I love you man.