Author Topic: the 2 N words  (Read 16163 times)

David

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2011, 09:32:34 pm »
Furthermore, freedom of speech is just another ideal that just doesn't work in the extreme. It's the ideal that the western world is more proud of because our speech is more free than in other parts of the world.

It works fine, just most of you Americans seem to be under the mistaken impression it means you can say anything you want.  It doesn't.

Freedom of speech would be better named "Freedom to have and express any opinion you want".  I have the right to say "I think all x are inferior and sub-human".  I don't have the right to say "All x are inferior and sub-human".  It's generally also taken that things that are pure insult and / or unsubstantiated accusations etc aren't covered.

So basically 99% of the time someone on the internet claims freedom of speech as an excuse for being a dick, they're just proving that they are too thick to bother thinking before they speak.

To quote the ICCPR, "the right to hold opinions without interference".  Not the right to be a dick.



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Dracone

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2011, 10:48:01 pm »
"Should we take administrative action on players who make a possibly offensive comment that, whether or not the player has the intent to be offensive, is simply the result of basic word choice in the creation of the comment?"

Lmfao at this topic. Imo, if it's not spam, don't mute/kick/ban them. To create a rule based on "forbidden" terms opens the game up to people being able to make false claims to being offended by something, and you would never know it. And stop trying to make a testing server as "good" as it can be for those who play on it, as if you actually care. That's just stupid. If/when 1.2 gets released, and the game somehow revives, anyone can set up a server called "KKK NO NIGGERS ALLOWED". Fuck, they can do that right now actually.

EDIT: Btw, this game probably loses more potential players due to them being offended by aliens killing humans than it does because someone said "nigger."
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 10:49:43 pm by Dracone »
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Nux

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2011, 10:58:07 pm »
Furthermore, freedom of speech is just another ideal that just doesn't work in the extreme. It's the ideal that the western world is more proud of because our speech is more free than in other parts of the world.

It works fine, just most of you Americans seem to be under the mistaken impression it means you can say anything you want.  It doesn't.

"freedom of speech is just another ideal that just doesn't work in the extreme."

I find it strange that you're arguing with me about something your saying yourself. Maybe you take 'Freedom of speech' to mean our version of it specifically? Regardless, we're both saying that unrestricted speech is bad and that what we have in place now is still restricted (but less so than elsewhere).

I find it annoying when I have to repeat what I've already said because you clearly didn't understand it the first time.

Also I'm English, not American.

EDIT: and PS by "unrestricted speech is bad" I've vastly simplifying that so that the message is clear. I feel as ever that there is a balance to strike between allowing an authority to abuse the system and allowing average joe to abuse the system.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 11:04:43 pm by Nux »

A Spork

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2011, 04:33:27 am »
I just say we invoke Wheatons law on the servers, that pretty much covers everything.
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mooseberry

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2011, 04:55:17 am »
A few points on the topic.

Using the word Nazi to describe the NSDAP is perfectly fine, as it's the common English name of the party. Using the word Nigger however except in a historical sense to quote an author of the time (which I highly doubt anyone on Tremulous is doing) is obviously done to incite, because nowhere is the term Nigger seen as anything but inflammatory.

One of the server rules states to avoid demographically insulting terms, ala "Nigger" "faggot" etc. I agree with this rule. First of all because these kinds of words are directly offensive to a general group of people especially, even if it is not targeted at them. There is a difference between curse words like fuck and shit and these words. Tremulant is right when he noted that "when they feel that being black, gay or jewish, for example, is something negative and therefore a perfectly usable insult, that bothers me a little."

Most of the first type of insulting words are ones which are using traits as insults against people, things they do not have control over. Someone does not choose to be black, or a woman, or Jewish, etc. Targeting someone for something like this is obviously harsh, offensive, and derogatory. Being a Nazi on the other hand is a choice that one makes. People who espouse Nazis beliefs obviously also lack sympathy from reasonable people, and so it is not viewed as badly to insult someone who chose to be a Nazi rather than someone who chose to, say, perform in band.

There was already a large discussion about a very similar topic before which I commented on. I will usually mute for usage of words like Nigger because I find it very hard to believe that you can, in good conscience, use that word in any purpose but to insult. Other similar words like faggot fall under the same category.

These words can lead to muting because they are most often a form of harassment and used to hurt people. If someone starts saying to someone else "you fucker, piece of shit" etc, in a serious and insulting way, they are creating an unsafe environment by insulting someone, and may likely get muted too, as I see the #1 goal as an admin is to ensure the enjoyment of as many people as possible on the server, by creating a safe environment, keeping the teams level, getting rid of greifers etc. This is another way to do it.

But really, this whole debate shouldn't be needed. Yes this is a video game. Yes it is online. People online are not known for showing restraint or maturity on any level. It's the nature of anonymity that allows people to lower themselves to the level they do. And from my experience with Tremulous, while there are many intelligent, mature players and forum goers, there is also a very high percentage of those who fall into the immature insulting level. That doesn't mean that you have to act that way. If someone harasses you ignore them, and/or ask an admin to help you out with a situation. We may not mute someone if we think you are overreacting, but don't feel afraid to ask for help, that's why we are here. And on your end, really, don't be a dick. The fact that we have had two threads of large size for the tremulous forums is a bit, well a won't say disappointing, because as I mentioned, I'm experienced, but still, don't call people Nigger or Faggot, or anything. Try to avoid insulting people directly when possible. The point of a game is to enjoy it. Let's aim for a little more of that and a little less of an all out 6th grade war hm?

I think that about covers my views.

Edit: by strange coincidence, spork posted, while I was typing, part of my summary. "Don't be a dick." Really, it's true.
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Kasofa

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2011, 05:36:25 am »
I was thinking about this recently, mainly on what words to mute people for. A while back, someone said Polack, and I didn't think twice, but when I looked up the term, that too is a derogatory slang word, meaning someone of polish decent. Anyway, I don't think that calling someone a nazi is not quite as offensive as calling someone a nigger, as Mooseberry said, it's a choice, not how you're born.

-K

EDIT: Wow, I shoulda checked that better. Sorry!
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 04:37:38 pm by Kasofa »

Tremulant

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2011, 05:45:32 am »
Anyway, I don't think that calling someone a nazi is quite as offensive as calling someone a nigger, as Mooseberry said, it's a choice, not how you're born.
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Nux

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2011, 06:48:17 am »
mooseberry makes his point well and I applaud it. The word will no doubt always hold connotations from the times of black slavery. To talk about the word itself as we're doing here is one of the only times that allows us to say it without possibly seeming to imply malicious intent.

The other time is if you are black.

This is what I find interesting. Thanks to the odd double-standard in political correctness at the moment, you get people who will use the word affectionately among friends but as soon as a white person joins in (just as affectionately mind you) it is taken as an offense. I guess this is really what I don't like about this issue. You get people blindly following the accepted 'good words' and 'bad words' (this topic for instance) not because of any actual reason to be offended but simply because it is the socially accepted response to be offended.

F50

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2011, 08:51:51 am »
Polack, and I didn't think twice, but when I looked up the term, that too is a derogatory slang word, meaning someone of polish decent.

This.
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Pazuzu

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2011, 12:04:16 am »
Moose sums it up nicely, but Tremulant really said what racial epithets are about with this: "when they feel that being black, gay or jewish, for example, is something negative and therefore a perfectly usable insult, that bothers me a little."
Personally, I'm not really bothered by words like this. The main reason not to use them is what they do to the speaker, making him/her look like an inarticulate, angry douche (yay hypocrisy!), but online, there are people that couldn't care less about how they look. These people are just there to troll (badly), and should be banned on sight, which is why certain words are bannable in the first place. I just think, at least online, they should be treated as red flags, rather than grave, instantly bannable offenses. It's all about the context they're used in, and an admin should be able to decide for themselves since they're (generally) functional human beings capable of making valid assessments. But since I'm someone that isn't directly offended by any words, I'm probably not an authority on the matter. This is just my 2 cents.

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Plague Bringer

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2011, 03:08:55 am »
inb4 "BUT 'NIGGER' IS ALWAYS BAD"

Pazuzu's point is valid. In the interests of fairness, there should be no words on a "blacklist" (for the lack of a better.. ahem.. word). Any word said (however subjectively "offensive") that is complained about should be looked at before making a decision about something like a ban. The system that Pazuzu suggested allows no room for people to complain about double standards or unfairness because "nigger", "nazi", and "polack", are blacklisted words, but "kid", and "noob", aren't. In the end, the same thing is accomplished, with only a little more effort and, likely, a much fairer distribution of bans.

From UrbanDictionary (THA BEST DICTIONARY IN THA WORLD):

Quote
politically correct:   
"You can't say 'George Bush'. It offends me. I have the right to not be offended"

On the subject of PC verbiage, though, who's on the fence? "Nigger" is a term that, quite a few generations ago, was used to describe slaves specifically from Nigeria. It was no more insulting (well, barring the fact that it was used to describe slaves) than Texan, Nova Scotian, Russian, etc. What happened, though, was (of course) it took on a very derogatory meaning. "Gay" is a more modern feeling example. And for more modern still, what about "retard" or "handicapped" or "disabled"? There comes a point, I think, where people need to stop changing words just because their meaning took on a negative connotation. If people don't like the mentally ill, they're going to use every slur and term available to them as an insult, even the (currently) politically correct one(s).

TL;DR: OP, NO.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 03:15:38 am by Plague Bringer »
U R A Q T

mooseberry

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2011, 08:52:02 am »
"Nigger" is a term that, quite a few generations ago, was used to describe slaves specifically from Nigeria. It was no more insulting (well, barring the fact that it was used to describe slaves) than Texan, Nova Scotian, Russian, etc. What happened, though, was (of course) it took on a very derogatory meaning.

I'd just like to point out that as far as I can tell this is not true.
Quote
"1786, earlier neger (1568, Scottish and northern England dialect), from Fr. nègre, from Sp. negro (see Negro). From the earliest usage it was "the term that carries with it all the obloquy and contempt and rejection which whites have inflicted on blacks" [cited in Gowers, 1965]."

The term comes from the romance word "negro". Nigeria is named after the Niger river. Nigger to the extent of my knowledge was never anywhere near a nice word, the time when it was common was also the time when common people were uneducated and believed in racial inferiority.

Anyways, I think the main points have been covered so unless you have a new, important, and directly related point on the topic, I would like to see this thread finish quietly without repetition.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 08:53:50 am by mooseberry »
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Tremulant

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2011, 10:37:53 am »
Anyways, I think the main points have been covered so unless you have a new, important, and directly related point on the topic, I would like to see this thread finish quietly without repetition.
How about a timely little lock, then, mr community moderator, sir? Preferably before any more geniuses chime in with their entirely made up origins of 'nigger'.
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Nux

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2011, 09:36:30 pm »
From looking at what wikipedia has to say about 'Nigger'/'Negro' and the sources it cites, it would seem that Negro is the earlier term when referring to black people/slaves and Nigger is a corruption of the word through phonetic spelling. Both terms, but mostly the former, have been used in a neutral context simply because there was no better word for describing black people until 'black people' became the preferred term.

"The usage was accepted as normal, even by people classified as Negroes, until the Civil Rights movement. One well-known example is the identification by Martin Luther King, Jr. of his own race as 'Negro' in his famous speech I Have a Dream." - Wikipedia page on 'Negro'

But origins aside, it's what a word implies NOW that matters and it clearly has developed into taboo (except if you're black).

Tremulant

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2011, 09:57:36 pm »
it clearly has developed into taboo (except if you're black).
Is it not still likely to be somewhat taboo with an awful lot of black people?
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Nux

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2011, 10:16:03 pm »
I imagine it is in fact MOSTLY frowned upon by black people. I meant if you the person saying it, are black. Some may still be offended by it but I'm pretty sure it's not a taboo in that case.

David

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2011, 10:59:38 pm »
I imagine it is in fact MOSTLY frowned upon by black people. I meant if you the person saying it, are black. Some may still be offended by it but I'm pretty sure it's not a taboo in that case.
And that in itself is racist.
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I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.

Conzul

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2011, 02:24:46 am »
Ugh GOD, have any of you actually walked down an urban street recently?? I have had the (mis)fortune to. "Common" language changes, sometimes very quickly.

mooseberry

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Re: the 2 N words
« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2011, 04:09:49 am »
"The usage was accepted as normal, even by people classified as Negroes, until the Civil Rights movement. One well-known example is the identification by Martin Luther King, Jr. of his own race as 'Negro' in his famous speech I Have a Dream." - Wikipedia page on 'Negro'

But origins aside, it's what a word implies NOW that matters and it clearly has developed into taboo (except if you're black).

a. For quite a bit of history, certainly by Dr. King's time, 'Negro' was not nearly so harsh as 'Nigger'.

b. Still pretty taboo in the black community.



I think everything has been covered in this thread, if you're still not clear, here's my points.

1. Don't use racial, gender, religious, sexual preference, etc derogatory terms as insults against people.

2. Try to just not use any insults against other people at all.

3. If you honestly feel insulted or threatened by someone, tell a moderator. (It may be silly, but don't feel afraid to at least ask).

4. Don't be a dick.
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