Gas reimplementation,goon pounce fix

[Meisseli]

Code: [Select]

P/S RATIO

LEVEL2 2,04
LEVEL3 0,66
LEVEL4 1,66Do take the time to read this again. Heck, it's even more obvious when it's turned the other way around:

Code: [Select]

S/P RATIO

LEVEL2 0,49
LEVEL3 1,52
LEVEL4 0,6So zap is being used 49% of the time compared to claw. Tyrant charge 60%. Pounce, wait what? 152%?? Goons being available throughout the stages has no effect on the ratios whatsoever.

Your stats however are not really helping you. I have no idea what in earth your "all attacks in a descending order of power" with weird numbers means (DPS?), but according to your stat pounce is 2,5x more effective than chomp. And again pounce is basically an automatically hitting weapon with which you can travel half the map's length in less than a second, which none of the other weapons in the list are.

a couple of naked rifles have the potential to rip you apart within a few seconds, sure it is possible to pounce over to them and pounce each one out within around the same time as well, but that all depends on the players, and that is what you would want/expect from a class costing 3/4 credits when faced with a couple of naked rifles.

Not only possible but terribly easy with the so-easy-to-hit pounce. Put a tyrant/marauder/anything to the same job and you're dead.

That is a bit of a shady area, its not so easy, with chomping you can look around, maybe dodge a few luci blasts etc, with pouncing down like that you cut off your vision, you are less aware of shit that's happening and you will most likely get mowed down quicker.

Your mouse isn't magically locked in the reactor while you're pouncing, in fact you have plenty of time to look up between the pounces. You're also able to circle around the reactor pouncing it or pounce repeatedly back and forth. Also, pounce kills the reactor 43% or 3 seconds faster (7 compared to 10, yes, I even checked it, I'm wasting a lot of energy in this debate, am I).

I think the bite is actually slightly better than the pounce now, and my opinion is they ought to be roughly equal in usefulness.

I even got a nice little quote from way back (the dragoon is still the same what it used to be when Norfenstein said the quote). This is what everyone here would want for 1.2 dragoon to be like.

[Tremulant]

How about adding a stamina equivalent to some (or all) alien secondary attacks, while keeping the current values for everything else? This will result in the following:

Ok, let's see where you're going with this.

• The basilisk needs to wait a little bit before gassing again. Not really a major change, but whatever.

Um, no, basi gas is underused as it is, this wont help matters, if you feel that it's not really a major change anyway then it's probably pointless.

• The marauder is no longer an infinite wide-area grenade. It has to run away and recharge instead of being able to destroy an entire base by itself. Most maras die after just three zaps or so, thus a lot of people won't notice this change.

So why penalise those players who manage to keep their mara alive longer by making them leave the base, with the risk of getting gunned down in the process, and wait to recharge? Why bother at all if it wont affect most players? Marazap nukes a bad base but it's no magic bullet, it can be very ineffective against well structured bases or a good defence force.

So, yes, goon pounce is silly and overpowered, this is blatantly obvious, but nerfing every other alien for the sake of it doesn't seem terribly helpful.

[OhaiReapd]

1 I want gas to empty or lower humans stamina
2 I want to calculate pounce damage on contact basis rather than "shooting" like calculation. Currently if you pounce somebody and then turn around in midair, you can kill a human BEHIND you

WTF. YES LETS NERF GOONS MORE SO THE BIG BAD GOON CANT KILL ME. I DONT THINK HAVING A DODGE BUTTON FOR HUMANS IS ENOUGH TO GIVE ME KILLS. I ALSO WANT ALIENS TO HAVE -100 HEALTH SO THE ALIENS DON'T CAMP. THX FOR DOING TIS.

So, yes, goon pounce is silly and overpowered, this is blatantly obvious, but nerfing every other alien for the sake of it doesn't seem terribly helpful.

It may be over powered, but the goon is so terrible as it is right now. I would only support the nerf of a goon pounce if they increase the repeat of the chomp, or even extend the range slightly. Its so god awful, I find myself going for a normal mara before I go to an Ad Goon.

[Celestial_Rage]

The goon rapes. I don't know what you're talking about.

[F50]

Your stats however are not really helping you. I have no idea what in earth your "all attacks in a descending order of power" with weird numbers means (DPS?), but according to your stat pounce is 2,5x more effective than chomp. And again pounce is basically an automatically hitting weapon with which you can travel half the map's length in less than a second, which none of the other weapons in the list are.

They are in fact in descending order of DPS. The formula is DAMAGE PER SHOT * (1/REPEAT) where repeat is in seconds. Pounce does 100 damage, and has a repeat of 400ms (0.4 seconds). This is easily taken from tremulous.h. However, I believe that calculation is wrong, since there is not only a repeat, but also a minimum charge time of an additional 100ms (full charge is 800ms) for pounce, for a total of 200 DPS, as compared to the 100 DPS of the advanced dragoon chomp. The regular dragoon has only 88.8 DPS. Pounce is the same between both classes. This is only if you use optimally short pounces however, your real DPS will be closer to 165 if you miss by roughly 100ms. Finally, I don't believe I have ever landed a headshot with pounce (although I have done legshots, which do less damage) so the DPS of the perfect advanced goon chomper could be as much as 150 (133.3 for regular goon). So even if you can get headshots 100 percent of the time and never miss, short pouncing is better, even if you are 100ms slower than the optimal pounce time.

Therefore, I submit that the only situation in which goon chomp has a clear advantage is in fighting enemies that wear light armor (but no helmet). Enemies that are liable to be 1-hit killed such as the naked rifle depend on whether or not you have pounce already charged past 100ms. If you are a good headshot, it is possible to kill naked rifles in arbitrarily short times with chomp, however if you are unlikely to complete a headchomp the vast majority of the time, it may be better to begin charging a pounce anyways, since pounce is considerably more likely to hit.

Reapd, even if the goon is not to be nerfed, I'd say this is a problem, no?

[Anonymoose]

OmG guise! new hot topic: Mass Drivers! they are like wellgud overpowered, instakill on dretches! IMPOSSIBRU to dodge! they require practically no skill!
shotguns or pulse rifles should be made more powerful so less people use mass drivers.
Too many people are using weapon A to kill enemies! we should totally make weapon A weaker and weapon B stronger so that more people use weapon B!

[F50]

Too many people are using weapon A to kill enemies! we should totally make weapon A weaker and weapon B stronger so that more people use weapon B!

I actually thought this was one of the purposes of doing GPP, to bring the marauder and basi into common usage and the tyrant into a more moderate role. What's the point in having a weapon (or building, such as the DC), if it is never a good idea to use it?

But I feel the need to say this again: pounce as it is, is not as fun for either party as chomp could be and has been.

[SirDude]

OmG guise! new hot topic: Mass Drivers! they are like wellgud overpowered, instakill on dretches! IMPOSSIBRU to dodge! they require practically no skill!
shotguns or pulse rifles should be made more powerful so less people use mass drivers.
Too many people are using weapon A to kill enemies! we should totally make weapon A weaker and weapon B stronger so that more people use weapon B!

(was asked to remove image)


Trolling usually consists of posting content that is intended to spark up a Flame War, Shitstorm, Internet fallout and the like, mainly for the entertainment of the Troll and his/her "friends".

exhibit A:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_KuwezuYFU&feature=more_related

exhibit B:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW6hZ1XMRl4&feature=related

this thread isn't won't go anywhere positive if you keep acting like the way you are.

[Anonymoose]

SirDude, your extremely crass humor and bold, italicized, underlined red text never fails to amuse.

[Tremulant]

*more noise than the supposed troll was ever likely to make*

GJ, sirdude, you're such a valuable member of the community, never leave us for so long again...

[SirDude]

*more noise than the supposed troll was ever likely to make*

GJ, sirdude, you're such a valuable member of the community, never leave us for so long again...

then aren't you adding to that noise?

what ever all i did was call bullshit on how Anonymoose is doing his argument.
_________________________________________________ ________________________________
BUT back on topic, i say pounce should be use more of a opening attack and tool.

IE only does damage if charged to 55% and anything below 45% does very little pushback so you can pounce short distances to close gaps with a target with out pushing them away from you.

[Meisseli]

OmG guise! new hot topic: Mass Drivers! they are like wellgud overpowered, instakill on dretches! IMPOSSIBRU to dodge! they require practically no skill!
shotguns or pulse rifles should be made more powerful so less people use mass drivers.
Too many people are using weapon A to kill enemies! we should totally make weapon A weaker and weapon B stronger so that more people use weapon B!

You're again using poorly comparable stuff to create your very own, very bad analogues.

A massdriver requires a considerable amount of aiming, you have to hit in a precise position at a precise time. A dragoon pounce requires very little aiming, you don't have to be precise since you can change the position you're aiming at throughout the attack and when you're close to the human you can just do a 90 degree sweep or so with your mouse which guarantees a hit.

A dragoon has two attacks, a primary and a secondary attack. A human doesn't have two weapons at once, a massdriver and a shotgun as per your example.

Talk of the pounce and chomp please. If you find yourself having poor arguments on them, bringing up poor analogues won't really help either. Throughout the topic you have been dodging responding to the actual main points and oddities with pounce vs. chomp:

• It isn't dodgeable
• It makes chomp basically redundant
• It has a higher DPS than chomp
• It isn't fun, being the pouncer or being pounced

Pounce is very easy to hit and does higher damage than chomp does. Basically pounce is almost always better than chomp. A lot of people don't like the fact that pounce is making chomp redundant and wish the two attacks could be roughly 50/50 in strongness. Now, keeping the overall power of the goon the same why is that in your opinion a horrible thing?

[Kiwi]

That's true, but keep in mind that chomps can headshot.  This means that during hs1 you can still insta-kill humans, even if they are fully upgraded.  That being said, pounce is still overpowered.

[OhaiReapd]

The goon rapes. I don't know what you're talking about.

My mistake, it has a way higher learning curve than any other alien. I don't like how the Chomp takes back seat to the pounce though. I mean, you CAN use a chomp to kill an armored human, but why bother? Pounce is a much more efficient means to kill. Chomps, to me, only seem to good in killing S1 humans and structures, which can both be taken out just as easily with pounce.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

i'm shit with a goon myself, but i have specced many a good goon, and they almost never chomp.

just saying.

[Dracone]

I prefer to chomp, myself.

http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/player_details.php?player_id=10650

But when it comes down to it pounce is necessary now, there is no choice if you're actually looking to keep killing shit at a high rate all game long.

I aliased a while back, just a few days of focusing heavily on chomp with goon. Problems came up huge against battlesuits or anyone remotely "good" (for human players these days, someone who binds and uses their dodge key, lmfao).

http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/player_details.php?player_id=14794

The "fun" factor of what most of us are saying is in that pounce and chomp were both necessary in 1.1, but now you could literally never use chomp and you'd be fine. Realistically, there is nothing to the goon now but flying through the air and automatically hitting people.

[Celestial_Rage]

i'm shit with a goon myself, but i have specced many a good goon, and they almost never chomp.

just saying.

I don't think you can consider that goon good then.

[OhaiReapd]

I aliased a while back, just a few days of focusing heavily on chomp with goon. Problems came up huge against battlesuits or anyone remotely "good" (for human players these days, someone who binds and uses their dodge key, lmfao).

I almost never see a human who dodges the correct way. I purposely unbinded my dodge key. I can dodge as good as, if not better than, the people on US1 who use the dodge key. Why did they input it? Its called jump people. Jesus.

i'm shit with a goon myself, but i have specced many a good goon, and they almost never chomp.

just saying.

I don't think you can consider that goon good then.

This.

[Anonymoose]

Pounce is very easy to hit and does higher damage than chomp does. Basically pounce is almost always better than chomp. A lot of people don't like the fact that pounce is making chomp redundant and wish the two attacks could be roughly 50/50 in strongness. Now, keeping the overall power of the goon the same why is that in your opinion a horrible thing?

A valid point you make, I don't consider it a horrible thing at all, my only real bitch would be if pounce was reduced say 'too much' to a point where it becomes solely a mobility thing, that would suck, goons are big targets and are sitting ducks when not pouncing around the place to dodge projectiles. Without pounce still packing a substantial punch it would cost too much time not dealing damage to use it in a confrontation, hopes of taking on more than one S2(or higher) humans at a time would be slim, especially with them 'dodging' around the place constantly while shooting. However, if chomp was amped enough to take up the slack... who knows?
Should someone make some alterations and test them out, should they give promising results, you might be able to change some minds. The promise land awaits!

Mind you, the current pounce does work as a nice flip-off to those who over-use the dodge function, now there is a fair amount of satisfaction that...

[Meisseli]

Pounce is very easy to hit and does higher damage than chomp does. Basically pounce is almost always better than chomp. A lot of people don't like the fact that pounce is making chomp redundant and wish the two attacks could be roughly 50/50 in strongness. Now, keeping the overall power of the goon the same why is that in your opinion a horrible thing?

A valid point you make, I don't consider it a horrible thing at all, my only real bitch would be if pounce was reduced say 'too much' to a point where it becomes solely a mobility thing, that would suck, goons are big targets and are sitting ducks when not pouncing around the place to dodge projectiles. Without pounce still packing a substantial punch it would cost too much time not dealing damage to use it in a confrontation, hopes of taking on more than one S2(or higher) humans at a time would be slim, especially with them 'dodging' around the place constantly while shooting. However, if chomp was amped enough to take up the slack... who knows?
Should someone make some alterations and test them out with promising results, you might be able to change some minds. The promise land awaits!

Mind you, the current pounce does work as a nice flip-off to those who over-use the dodge function, now there is a fair amount of satisfaction that...

Yeah, the pounce should definitely be usable too but not so that you want to be only using pounce all the time. What I think of how pounce should be is having to deal:

• 2 pounces to kill a larm human (current value)
• 4 pounces to kill a larm+helm (+1 from current value)
• 5 pounces to kill a battlesuit (current value, maybe raise to 6 if really required).

Naturally chomp should be modified (probably just repeat, if truly needed range) accordingly. Now how to implement that without losing the ability to 1-hit pounce (though I wouldn't mind) nakeds is hard. The only way would be to touch the non-locational armour variables.

[SirDude]

Yeah, the pounce should definitely be usable too but not so that you want to be only using pounce all the time. What I think of how pounce should be is having to deal:

• 2 pounces to kill a larm human (current value)
• 4 pounces to kill a larm+helm (+1 from current value)
• 5 pounces to kill a battlesuit (current value, maybe raise to 6 if really required).

Naturally chomp should be modified (probably just repeat, if truly needed range) accordingly. Now how to implement that without losing the ability to 1-hit pounce (though I wouldn't mind) nakeds is hard. The only way would be to touch the non-locational armour variables.

those +1s won't make much of a difference as pounce is being micro spammed, if pounce was made so it
only does damage if charged to 40% (in doing this pounce would hit its max damage faster) and anything below 35% does very little pushback so you can pounce short distances to close gaps with a target with out pushing them away from you. and chomp buffed we would have a balanced good again.

[Dracone]

I'd like to point out that something's been altered about the goon's pounce that causes pouncing to be far less effective in catching up to people now, compared to 1.1. The shorter pounces that allowed you to close smaller gaps don't really work anymore.

Someone want to explain? It isn't just me, and it has nothing to do with the human dodge feature. It's legit "uncomfortable" to attempt to use shorter pounces to catch up, which I have to do if I want to chomp someone who has gained distance.

[Celestial_Rage]

I think it has to do with pouncing and then trying to chomp immediately afterward.

[Anonymoose]

those +1s won't make much of a difference as pounce is being micro spammed, if pounce was made so it
only does damage if charged to 40% (in doing this pounce would hit its max damage faster) and anything below 35% does very little pushback so you can pounce short distances to close gaps with a target with out pushing them away from you. and chomp buffed we would have a balanced good again.

SirDude, unless you have someone wedged into a corner (not a common situation) these 'micro pounces' don't work like that, under normal circumstances you need to charge to over 40% to actually land your hit anyway, anything less and you will most likely fall short or move too slow and the pounce is easily avoided. Spectate anyone who predominantly uses pounce and you will notice they don't use small pounces at all like your saying, most are in fact near on fully charged for maximum speed and force sending foes flying, disorientating and giving time for further powerful pounces to keep smashing them around.

[OhaiReapd]

I'd like to point out that something's been altered about the goon's pounce that causes pouncing to be far less effective in catching up to people now, compared to 1.1. The shorter pounces that allowed you to close smaller gaps don't really work anymore.

Someone want to explain? It isn't just me, and it has nothing to do with the human dodge feature. It's legit "uncomfortable" to attempt to use shorter pounces to catch up, which I have to do if I want to chomp someone who has gained distance.

First off, the dodge feature does make it more uncomfortable. BUT, I think the pounce has a longer cool down time unless you are pouncing again. Because you can spam pounce as long as you let go of MOUSE2 first, but you have to land before you can chomp. Idk really. But it seems to take longer to chomp after pouncing but not for pounce spamming.

[CorSair]

Somebody should draw the line in here. The whole topic is becoming vicious circle. At least I think so.

If someone wants end here, put a neutral conclusion what is been discussed in here. I lost my track totally in this topic, and I'm tired at the moment.

[SirDude]

unless you have someone wedged into a corner (not a common situation) these 'micro pounces' don't work like that, under normal circumstances you need to charge to over 40% to actually land your hit anyway, anything less and you will most likely fall short or move too slow and the pounce is easily avoided.

Bullshit

form a good goon, the opening attack is usually a fully charged pounce with the intention to get you cornered/against a wall, THEN is is micro pounce time. under normal circumstances you aim up to cover more distance with lower charged pounces then aim at you intended target, any good goon knows this. any good goon also knows that goons are easily dodged in a open space, and if you dodge in a closed space and hit a wall you most likly can not dodge the next pounce and thus get cornered.

Spectate anyone who predominantly uses pounce and you will notice they don't use small pounces at all like your saying, most are in fact near on fully charged for maximum speed and force sending foes flying, disorientating and giving time for further powerful pounces to keep smashing them around.

Spectate anyone who predominantly uses pounce and you will notice they only use power pounces to get you cornered, then the will Stop the power pounces and Hammer you into the wall like a nail in a coffin in no Time.

[Anonymoose]

Bullshit

form a good goon, the opening attack is usually a fully charged pounce with the intention to get you cornered/against a wall, THEN is is micro pounce time. under normal circumstances you aim up to cover more distance with lower charged pounces then aim at you intended target, any good goon knows this. any good goon also knows that goons are easily dodged in a open space, and if you dodge in a closed space and hit a wall you most likly can not dodge the next pounce and thus get cornered.

Actually no, a 'good goon' can use a flurry of powerful pounces and keep the enemy unable to get a good fix on them and will as a result of this superior technique lose far less hp and can sooner get back into the killin!

Spectate anyone who predominantly uses pounce and you will notice they only use power pounces to get you cornered, then the will Stop the power pounces and Hammer you into the wall like a nail in a coffin in no Time.

Loool SirDude NO
Here i made a little doozy in MS paint for you

SirDude, unless you have someone wedged into a corner (not a common situation) these 'micro pounces' don't work like that, under normal circumstances you need to charge to over 40% to actually land your hit anyway, anything less and you will most likely fall short or move too slow and the pounce is easily avoided. Spectate anyone who predominantly uses pounce and you will notice they don't use small pounces at all like your saying, most are in fact near on fully charged for maximum speed and force sending foes flying, disorientating and giving time for further powerful pounces to keep smashing them around.

This post still applies Sirdude, Quality of the pounce is just as important as Quantity, if you were actually good at it you would know this.

[SirDude]

I lol at you mass amount of Bullshit and wait for someone else with time to deal with it first.

[Anonymoose]

I mass at you lol amount of Bullshit and wait for my currently shattered ego to heal so i can continue being a spanner in the gears of progress.