Gas reimplementation,goon pounce fix

[baybal]

1 I want gas to empty or lower humans stamina
2 I want to calculate pounce damage on contact basis rather than "shooting" like calculation. Currently if you pounce somebody and then turn around in midair, you can kill a human BEHIND you

[swamp-cecil]

1 I want gas to empty or lower humans stamina
Gas is allready really stong. You can gas an entire human team with one button leaving a rant a good meal. It allready slows the target.
2 I want to calculate pounce damage on contact basis rather than "shooting" like calculation. Currently if you pounce somebody and then turn around in midair, you can kill a human BEHIND you
?

[Qrntz]

3 - I want you to implement that yourself. I know you are not going to. But I want!

[SirDude]

2 I want to calculate pounce damage on contact basis rather than "shooting" like calculation. Currently if you pounce somebody and then turn around in midair, you can kill a human BEHIND you

yea i understand that, even when it never happens like that...

[cron]

2 I want to calculate pounce damage on contact basis rather than "shooting" like calculation. Currently if you pounce somebody and then turn around in midair, you can kill a human BEHIND you

yea i understand that, even when it never happens like that...

Really? I've had this happen to me several times. I always call HAX when it happens too. I'm with baybal on this one.

Goon pounce should be tweaked or completely overhauled. As is, it seems insanely overpowered in the hands of a really skilled player (especially for a supposed 'secondary' attack; even though pounce is the primary attack for a lot of 1.2 players).

To compensate, I think it'd make sense to have pounce do slightly less damage in these situations:

1. When pouncing from below your target.

2. If the target is moving in the same direction as the pounce, and at roughly the same speed (if the human player uses dodge to try to escape, or if they're falling towards the ground and get pounced in mid-air).

3. While the target is not standing (crouching and jumping).

Lowering pounce damage done from below would help fix goons racking up kills along the ledge in human base in ATCS.
Yes, I said fix, as I consider it a nasty bug, not a desirable gameplay feature.

[F50]

Honestly I think you would do more damage to a jumping target. And I don't see why you'd do less damage to a crouching target, or from pouncing from below, actually. I'm torn on whether or not this should work with humans moving in the same direction as the pounce (the knockback makes me feel its not just the velocity of the goon that causes pounce damage).

It makes sense that damage should be partially dependent on goon-velocity, but that's not really the issue here. The issue is that pounce is overpowered. Especially when compared to chomp.

[UniqPhoeniX]

IMO it's irrelevant whether an attack is called primary or secondary, and IMO it is good that secondary attacks are more powerful than primary ones, since different classes have different secondary attacks, thus adding some variety.
Things I don't like about pounce: having to aim at the target for any damage at all; the short range vs the goon bbox, which makes some pounces miss even if you were aiming at the target and physically hit him; pounce charge has no effect on damage dealt; velocity relative to target has no effect on damage dealt; difficult to hit with on slopes. Still, the chance of a major overhaul to pounce is tiny.

[cron]

Come to think of it, pounce should do MORE damage if the target jumps before the pounce impacts. This make me think of (American) Football games where a receiver jumps to try to catch the ball and is gloriously sacked by a defender.

Pounces to a crouched target should have a reduced knock back effect, and do less damage, because the target is supposedly 'stabilized' on the ground (ie, not having to keep their balance).

As for pounce damage from above vs. from below, 'realistically' a pounce from above would cause head trauma (more damage), and from below it should only break your legs, not kill you (less damage).

Also, the knockback range and velocity should be lower than the pounce velocity and range, unless goons or humans are made of Flubber.

[cron]

IMO it's irrelevant whether an attack is called primary or secondary

It's not irrelevant because it relates directly to button bindings for control of that class, and ease of use by the player (MB1 is probably easier to use than MB2 or 3 for most right-handed players).


Also, pouncing through corners is just absurd, and that at least should be fixed.

[Meisseli]

Come to think of it, pounce should do MORE damage if the target jumps before the pounce impacts. This make me think of (American) Football games where a receiver jumps to try to catch the ball and is gloriously sacked by a defender.

Pounces to a crouched target should have a reduced knock back effect, and do less damage, because the target is supposedly 'stabilized' on the ground (ie, not having to keep their balance).

As for pounce damage from above vs. from below, 'realistically' a pounce from above would cause head trauma (more damage), and from below it should only break your legs, not kill you (less damage).

Also, the knockback range and velocity should be lower than the pounce velocity and range, unless goons or humans are made of Flubber.

Shooting an alien to the head should do more damage. Dropping down from 25m should kill an alien. A single rifle bullet to the head should kill a human.

Are you really getting anywhere with your attempts on "realism"?

[cron]

Are you really getting anywhere with your attempts on "realism"?

This is a feedback board.. shoo.

[Meisseli]

Are you really getting anywhere with your attempts on "realism"?

This is a feedback board.. shoo.

Feedback: your suggestions suck, they're both badly implementable and they would make the game enormously complex, not to mention horrible.

[CorSair]

I wouldn't say it that totally horrible. Atleast, dragoon should damage human, even if it would look elsewhere. If dragoon comes, for example, by his right/left side, it should give some bruising (for armored human, something of 1-20.) Front is still the deadliest, thanks to (minimum size) horns.

But I do agree this would make it more complex, and developing it would take quite lot of time to make it "least working"-condition.

[David]

If you really want to make it more realistic... why can you turn in the air at all?  And why can anything turn on the spot so fast?

[Dracone]

The only thing that needs to be made more "realistic" is the rant charge since it's fucking stupid that they can kill you with the top of their head.

[Conzul]

I think jetpacks should be removed.

[Qrntz]

• Make humans buy donuts some real food at the armoury and starve over time
• Make grangers auto-gurgle on impact and be all kind of squishy
• Make basigas induce some really nice psychedelic effects
• Add medkit addiction and make the withdrawal painful. Instead, humans can get more simple and use bandages with penicillin
• Expand the medistation into a hospital with moderately sexy nurses
• Water should have waves and fish. Lots of fish
• Humans should need a broom to scare dretches away
• Jetpacks can poison aliens with exhaust and do environmental damage to make your 'green' teammates rage
• Fuel stations everywhere, aliens can drink petrol and regurgitate benzene vapors while being moderately brain-damaged
• Massdriver should be driving mass, and not the shit out of dretches
• Mara whoring should only be accomplished by maras, who have reached puberty. Else, you're going to end in jail
• No more jetpacks underwater; using flamer underwater results in a petrol leak and people raging at BP again
• The painsaw should be scientifically described as a misused Hall effect thruster; also, it can be used to fly or kill yourself by smashing into a wall
• Maps need to include a weather forecast
• Tesla generators are instead Weird Intelligent Electric Zappers of Unknown Inventer
• Spectators don't fly
• Grenades are fragmentation ones, and not 'I`m a firestick' kind ones
• Aliens can leave banana peels all over the map, which humans should avoid
• A flamethrower is actually one, and not a burning gas dispenser; real-world flamethrowers shoot napalm

tl;dr I have too much free time

[DraZiLoX]

• Expand the medistation into a hospital with moderately sexy nurses

"Quick! I need balls-to-mouth resuscitation!"

[David]

"Quick! I need balls-to-mouth resuscitation!"

So when you're dying, you want to have someone stuff their balls into your mouth?

Each to his own I guess.

[DraZiLoX]

"Quick! I need balls-to-mouth resuscitation!"

So when you're dying, you want to have someone stuff their balls into your mouth?

Each to his own I guess.

And then respawn.

[SirDude]

can we please quit the thread derailment?

[cron]

Feedback: your suggestions suck, they're both badly implementable and they would make the game enormously complex, not to mention horrible.

Feedback: I think you can go ahead and unstick your head from up your butt. lol don't try this at home.

The things I've suggested are not 'badly implementable' (there's already damage differences to different parts of the human bounding box and damage difference for crouch). The Goon pounce behavior is horribly buggy as-is, so again, shoo.

[cron]

Also, I never said I want to add realism to Tremulous. I used the word 'realistically' when proposing a hypothetical corrected behavior specific to one aspect of the game, so please stop brining up if things are realistic or not.

This topic is about reimplenting basi gas and fixing goon pounce.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Where are the mods when you need them?

[Meisseli]

Feedback: your suggestions suck, they're both badly implementable and they would make the game enormously complex, not to mention horrible.

Feedback: I think you can go ahead and unstick your head from up your butt.

The things I've suggested are not 'badly implementable' (there's already damage differences to different parts of the human bounding box and damage difference for crouch). The Goon pounce behavior is horribly buggy as-is, so again, shoo.

The things you've suggested are badly implementable. There are damage differences for attack types that do locational damage. Pounce is non-locational damage. If what you're attempting to say is to make pounce deal locational damage, your suggestion is indeed a horrible one.

You also haven't either been around or paid attention to what was happening with the 1.1 crouch and dragoon chomping. Normally a goon headchomp dealt 100 damage, but when you crouched you would only receive 80 damage. This was abused to the maximum and was a horrible gameplay feature. You're basically trying to revive it with the dragoon pounce. People will just crouch all the time with your bad suggestion.

I also really don't think many people want to have a piece of paper called "The Dragoon Pounce Damage Table" near their keyboard that they need to check every time when pouncing. "Oh crap, what damage does my pounce this time do? Is the human crouching, dodging, jumping, falling, moving to the opposite/same direction, moving diagonally 75°, moving with a speed of 0 - 200 gu/s, 200 - 486,4 gu/s or 486,4 - 857 gu/s?"

[SirDude]

The things you've suggested are badly implementable. There are damage differences for attack types that do locational damage. Pounce is non-locational damage. If what you're attempting to say is to make pounce deal locational damage, your suggestion is indeed a horrible one.

I think he means locational damage as in what direction they are attacking from, like goon pounces from above and receives a damage bonus not equal to a HS.

You also haven't either been around or paid attention to what was happening with the 1.1 crouch and dragoon chomping. Normally a goon headchomp dealt 100 damage, but when you crouched you would only receive 80 damage. This was abused to the maximum and was a horrible gameplay feature. You're basically trying to revive it with the dragoon pounce. People will just crouch all the time with your bad suggestion.

yes and back then chop was actually better then pounce, you are also forgetting that it wasn't game breaking and gave naked humans a chance, after all back then dretches could insta kills to nakeds.

I also really don't think many people want to have a piece of paper called "The Dragoon Pounce Damage Table" near their keyboard that they need to check every time when pouncing. "Oh crap, what damage does my pounce this time do? Is the human crouching, dodging, jumping, falling, moving to the opposite/same direction, moving diagonally 75°, moving with a speed of 0 - 200 gu/s, 200 - 486,4 gu/s or 486,4 - 857 gu/s?"

I'm sorry. i don't think any trem player is consistently calculating how much damage their pounce is doing, only "the rear does more damage" is the best any player hassles themselves with.   

[Meisseli]

I think he means locational damage as in what direction they are attacking from, like goon pounces from above and receives a damage bonus not equal to a HS.

Like... as in make pounce do locational damage?

yes and back then chop was actually better then pounce, you are also forgetting that it wasn't game breaking and gave naked humans a chance, after all back then dretches could insta kills to nakeds.

What do dretches have to do with anything? They couldn't insta-kill anything.

I'm sorry. i don't think any trem player is consistently calculating how much damage their pounce is doing, only "the rear does more damage" is the best any player hassles themselves with.

Oh dear. Literacy anyone?

[UniqPhoeniX]

You also haven't either been around or paid attention to what was happening with the 1.1 crouch and dragoon chomping. Normally a goon headchomp dealt 100 damage, but when you crouched you would only receive 80 damage. This was abused to the maximum and was a horrible gameplay feature. You're basically trying to revive it with the dragoon pounce. People will just crouch all the time with your bad suggestion.

I also really don't think many people want to have a piece of paper called "The Dragoon Pounce Damage Table" near their keyboard that they need to check every time when pouncing. "Oh crap, what damage does my pounce this time do? Is the human crouching, dodging, jumping, falling, moving to the opposite/same direction, moving diagonally 75°, moving with a speed of 0 - 200 gu/s, 200 - 486,4 gu/s or 486,4 - 857 gu/s?"

Crouch headshot doing less damage != locational damage. Do you really think it's impossible to have locational damage with crouch having same values?
Are you counting the seconds a player has been poisoned for & has had his/her medkit active for? How about estimating how much damage they took from that fall? Perhaps testing in common locations where players can fall and writing down the damage taken? Are you counting & calculating damage from your dretch bites against a bsuit? Are you <insert another ridiculous thing here>?

[Meisseli]

Crouch headshot doing less damage != locational damage. Do you really think it's impossible to have locational damage without crouch having different values?
Are you counting the seconds a player has been poisoned for & has had his/her medkit active for? How about estimating how much damage they took from that fall? Perhaps testing in common locations where players can fall and writing down the damage taken? Are you counting & calculating damage from your dretch bites against a bsuit? Are you <insert another ridiculous thing here>?

If you had read his whole post you would've noticed he also wants pounce to do less damage to legs, more damage to head, etc. = locational damage. The crouch and chomping issue was fixed but he wants players who crouch take less damage from pounces.

I am well aware of the fact that my pounce does 100 damage, 34 to larm+helm and 22 to bsuit, and I don't have to calculate anything else.

[Kasofa]

This topic is really funny, cause we all know that the suggestions probably won't happen, and that arguing is just going to get no where. The locational damage thing could be interesting, but it isn't completely broken yet, so I suggest we don't poke it to see how far gameplay will bend.

-K