What's right and what's wrong, the GPP and you.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

QL and q3 have different angles for strafejumping.  it's well documented.

1) in quake, any player can have a rocket launcher.  give me an alien with a rocket analog, and we'll call it even.

2) luci splash and that nade tend to kill dretches before they have a chance to bite.  the overmind is usually dead or dying before the offending human bites the bullet, usually from his own weapons.

3. which alien that can jump onto a RC has the damage output of luci + nade? 

I'd like to see the documentation on that; it'd be news to me, and I play both.

1) Dragoon pounce is actually very analogous to rocket jumping...
2) Not smart dretches.
3) This also begs the question, is your team bad enough to let either of these things happen in the first place? If yes, then a mara can do just as much.

it's not as well documented as i thought it was.  but the differences are there.  for one, you slowly accelerate as long as you keep jumping, as per first "code update" in this changelog http://www.quakelive.com/forum/showthread.php?5591-Site-Update-October-26-2010
i used to have an article explaining the math of it and the differences bookmarked, but that was an OS reinstall and blown motherboard ago.  if memory serves, the "optimum" angle for q3 was 45 degrees, while ql uses something closer to 40 or even 35.  the different alien FoVs in trem also might be a factor, as researching this for you has pointed me to evidence that FoV affects the angle as well.  i'd spend more time searching, but even web browsing takes forever on this circa 1999 computer.

1) goon pounce has splash damage?  this is news to me.

2) i'd believe you if there was a longer delay between firing a charged shot and an uncharged shot.  also, this is a human, not a bot.  i doubt anyone who would use this tactic would ignore the dretches just to kill the OM, especially when they'll need some credits to rearm and do it again. 

3) i may be new and not have the numbers in front of me, but i do not think a s2 mara+ has the DPS of a s3 luci, with a naid thrown in.  mara claws (or chomps, whatever you choose to believe the attack really is) do not have splash damage.  splash damage that oneshots any naked rifles that happen to have the ill luck to spawn nearby.

all in all, there is a jetpack.  you can use that to fly, rather than shooting your feet.  i just dont like seeing a craptastic human team that camps the whole round get some habitually human player to jump on, kill the OM for them, and win the map though they have less overall teamwork.

[OhaiReapd]

Most "dodge spamming dickwads" are extremely predictable, so, all you really have to do is be able to aim. Further, dodge helps humans avoid attacks like trample and pounce that aren't that easy to dodge using regular "dancing."

As predictable as it is, with spammers, most of them will just backpeddle constantly, and how easy is it kill them with a dretch, basi, and regular mara while they spam backwards? I wouldn't mind dodge if goon chomp could at least counter it. Or they made it less usable, like how Medi suggested. But its very frustrating(see my last 2 posts for examples) when I spend 3 or 4 dretch lives getting a goon and then losing that goon to someone who has no idea what their doing other than "thers tiscool buton tht halpz me b pro." And also the fact that, however bad I am, I'm better than the average noob. And I spent close to 3 years learning how to play 1.1 just to have basically all of it thrown away. 

[Celestial_Rage]

Pounce those backpedaling mofos (If you aim at their chest, dodge doesn't take them out of pounce range). If you're a dretch or basi, strafe jump. If you are a mara, use the walls.

[Tremulant]

however bad I am, I'm better than the average noob. And I spent close to 3 years learning how to play 1.1 just to have basically all of it thrown away. 

Boohoo, i guess, poor little Reapd... 
Protip, stop claiming that dodge gives no advantage if you then go on to complain about the advantages it gives, and hey, learn to dodge.

[Meisseli]

How to counter lucijumps? Barricades, or simply aliens/hives/tubes in the right place block lucijumpers completely. Putting trappers on the wall/ceiling where the lucijumping humans land makes them extremely vulnerable. A trapped human inside alien base will die to aliens/tubes/hives way before he even nearly kills the Overmind. Grenades can be rendered useless by barricading the Overmind. Eggs can be placed near the Overmind so that defenders will constantly spawn all around the poor jumper.

Lucijumpers usually

a) have taken damage before the lucijump
b) take damage from the lucijump itself
c) take damage after the lucijump from defensive structures
d) take damage after the lucijump from aliens
e) take splash damage from trying to kill the aliens

which sums up to so much damage that they aren't really a problem at all.


tl;dr - Lucijumping is overpowered!
       - Build correctly.

[OhaiReapd]

however bad I am, I'm better than the average noob. And I spent close to 3 years learning how to play 1.1 just to have basically all of it thrown away. 

Boohoo, i guess, poor little Reapd... 
Protip, stop claiming that dodge gives no advantage if you then go on to complain about the advantages it gives, and hey, learn to dodge.

K, I'll spam dodge now.

[ziplocpeople]

Just something to worth noting- You can run to the side faster than you can backpedal, but dodge on the other hand is uniform no matter what the direction is. Why doesn't dodge work the same way?

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

goon:
a) dragoon repeat rate; make the current adv goon the 1.1 normal goon speed, normal goon to current gpp adv goon.
b) pounce range (as in how far you can reach, not how far you can jump) to 0.
c) Must travel minimum of 60 units after pounce for pounce attack to valid.

for marauder:
a) Old zap back because more realistic and no zap-run within 0.1 seconds. (Zap taks i think 0.3 seconds, and attacks 4 times of 20 dmg in that time, in gpp just does one set of 80 instant. Bullshit and animations continue)
b) Reach back to normal, can't reach humans at max marauder jump hight.
c) cg_1.1mararauder 1/0 (enables air physics of old or new marauder, old one is harder to jump onto atcs bunker and can't jump continuously on two walls; and also can't climb 100 metres in air with just one wall [tested in gmod's treecannon mod as well as normal treecannon; pretty handy for killing rc ontop of human default by evolving 50 metres in air and crushing rc in one hit])

Basi:
Old basi back, weak healing aura and pass strong aura to builder.

rant:
Creep strength aura pls, healing 3.5 health a second? Serious? Old used to be 14 now divided by 4. Thats bull.

Luci: Charge time to 2.5 not 3 seconds, fix left click luci spam (charge until HUD charge pops up, let go and immediately re-press), and also firing one ammo from left click the bullet is slower than right click.

Flamer: cg_1.1flamer (you know)

Chaingun: Old fuzz/shaky screen back, the new one is a bit laggy (i press, it shoots for a second then shakes, i let go stop shooting and still shakes for a second)

AdvGoon: Snipe animation. (only seen when holding pounce charge button at the same time while sniping)

Alien healing outside creep: Don't halve, 3/4 it.

_____________________


And i got more on my brain list.

[Menace13]

goon:
a) dragoon repeat rate; make the current adv goon the 1.1 normal goon speed, normal goon to current gpp adv goon.
b) pounce range (as in how far you can reach, not how far you can jump) to 0.
c) Must travel minimum of 60 units after pounce for pounce attack to valid.

for marauder:
a) Old zap back because more realistic and no zap-run within 0.1 seconds. (Zap taks i think 0.3 seconds, and attacks 4 times of 20 dmg in that time, in gpp just does one set of 80 instant. Bullshit and animations continue)
b) Reach back to normal, can't reach humans at max marauder jump hight.
c) cg_1.1mararauder 1/0 (enables air physics of old or new marauder, old one is harder to jump onto atcs bunker and can't jump continuously on two walls; and also can't climb 100 metres in air with just one wall [tested in gmod's treecannon mod as well as normal treecannon; pretty handy for killing rc ontop of human default by evolving 50 metres in air and crushing rc in one hit])

Basi:
Old basi back, weak healing aura and pass strong aura to builder.

rant:
Creep strength aura pls, healing 3.5 health a second? Serious? Old used to be 14 now divided by 4. Thats bull.

Luci: Charge time to 2.5 not 3 seconds, fix left click luci spam (charge until HUD charge pops up, let go and immediately re-press), and also firing one ammo from left click the bullet is slower than right click.

Flamer: cg_1.1flamer (you know)

Chaingun: Old fuzz/shaky screen back, the new one is a bit laggy (i press, it shoots for a second then shakes, i let go stop shooting and still shakes for a second)

AdvGoon: Snipe animation. (only seen when holding pounce charge button at the same time while sniping)

Alien healing outside creep: Don't halve, 3/4 it.

_____________________


And i got more on my brain list.

Your goon ideas are stupid. For all of them.

Your marauder facts are completely off. Marauder zap has always done 60 damage, and isn't that powerful except against clumps of buildings and/or people that don't include teslas. Marauder has always been able to slash human heads at max jump height. The range has been DECREASED in 1.2 already. /cg_1.1marauder 1/0 is a HORRIBLE idea, let alone the fact that I don't think cvars can have periods in them? Dunno about that... This effectively would either let you have an epic mara or a weaker mara. Nobody would turn it on except to own noobs and laugh at them for getting owned by a weaker mara.

Basi is perfect as it is. Why would you want to give a BUILDER a healing aura? That's a stupid idea.

Rant should not have a healing aura. They got rid of that and lowered the health to 350. Anyways, rant heals 8.5 hp or so per second when not near any healing source AFAIK. Get your facts straight. (Actually I'm pretty sure I'm wrong )

Anyways, on to Luci. LUCI IS FINE. IT IS POSSIBLY EVEN TOO POWERFUL NOW. About the spam from +attack luci, it is weaker than spam from +button5 luci, and thus +button5 luci has a slower repeat rate. 1 ammo shots from +attack luci are weaker than +button5 luci, because of that exact same reason.

Flamer is fine, and they are NOT going to make commands like that allowing people to have their style of gameplay. 1.2 =/= 1.1 and it's gonna stay that way. So far I can only off the top of my head think of 1 thing in 1.1 that I prefer to 1.2 and that would, ofc, be hovel. ;_;

Chaingun is fine, and it really isn't laggy, it's realistic. The gun wouldn't stop shaking suddenly. It takes time to cool down. Realistically it would take a half a second, maybe a full second to warm up before it started murdering aliens.

Advgoon: no. Nobody would do that, and it would be hard as hell to implement. Why make an animation that nobody would use. You don't realize how hard it is to make stuff like that. If you make the animation, I'm sure they still wouldn't implement it because it would suck. Hard.

Alien healing outside creep: is fine. Aliens aren't Wolverine, and thus don't have Wolverine Healing. That would be OP. Aliens are somewhat overpowered as it is, and this would make them 50% better.

ALL IN ALL, don't make ideas that suck. AKA don't make ideas that aren't plausible. Seriously, how old are you, 10? And please, nobody will take you seriously if you don't use good grammar/spelling.

[ziplocpeople]

Basi is perfect as it is.

No, just no.

[OhaiReapd]

Basi is perfect as it is.

No, just no.

This

[ziplocpeople]

A quick review of this topic shows that most feel that the dragoon needs at least some changing, and that a significant (though, a decent bit less) number of people think that basilisk could use some tweaks too. I'm basing this on the comments made about these two aliens, not the lack thereof (mainly because if someone felt it necessary to disagree, they would.) As for dodge, well most people seem to like it, however I will quote one wise poster (yes, I know how humble I am.)

You can run to the side faster than you can backpedal, but dodge on the other hand is uniform no matter what the direction is. Why doesn't dodge work the same way?

[A Spork]

* A Spork enters to defend Friend

I think he's just fine, yes he's somewhat overpowered in a 1v1, but as soon as that human brings a buddy, friend is all but screwed.


Also, i think lasgun is fine, yes its not the most n00b popular weapon, but its very useful in its own right.


Also, hovel as more of a low wide barricade/spike strip? that might work ok...

[zybork]

The lasgun is like the rifle? The lasgun is like the chaingun? I'm not even sure what game you guys are playing anymore.

Absolutely correct. Those weapons cannot be compared to each other for many reasons.

All of that aside, the lasgun is the superior weapon and can't really be compared to a lower accuracy weapon.

Wrong. Consulting my allmighty datasheed, I can state that a rifle deals a damage of 5/shot, a lasgun 9, but the rifle has a lesser repeat on one hand, but a reload on the other, so:

	rifle	lasgun
dps/clip	56	45
dps total	34	45

While firing a single clip, the rifle does indeed more damage than the lasgun, but: it has a reload (standard reload, two seconds) between clips, so in sustained fire, the rifle does less damage than the lasgun. Against small targets near you, the rifle is the better choice, against a bigger foe that has some distance between you and it, you're better off with the lasgun, and – important! – if your aim is not that good, you may be better off with a rifle, because the spread gives you a bigger area in which you may hit something.

The lasergun and the rifle have different characteristics, and, depending the tactical situation which implies your personal fighting style, one or the other may be the better choice, no matter the stage.

[OhaiReapd]

Very good point. +1

[Nux]

The lasgun is like the rifle? The lasgun is like the chaingun? I'm not even sure what game you guys are playing anymore.

Absolutely correct. Those weapons cannot be compared to each other for many reasons.

All of that aside, the lasgun is the superior weapon and can't really be compared to a lower accuracy weapon.

Wrong. Consulting my allmighty datasheed, [explanation of the difference between rifle and lasgun]

Heh, I didn't mean it literally could never be compared. Merely that to compare such different weapons- as you explained so well -will conclude with words to the effect of 'they are good for different things'. You'll see I was comparing the massdriver and the lasgun, which I believe are similar enough (they are useful in mostly the same situations) to come to a much more simple conclusion.

EDIT: also, thanks to you mentioning the difference between total and per clip damage per second, you've made me realise the massdriver total dps is actually even lower than I thought it was if you include reloading time.

[zybork]

Just for the record, I just checked the dps/clip and the dps/total of the massdriver, and figured it is the lowest of all, if you don't count the blaster:

rifle:
dps/clip: 56
dps total: 34

lasgun:
dps/clip: 45
dps total: 45

massdriver:
dps/clip: 40
dps total: 31, 33 with battery pack

I know you compared the lasgun with the massdriver, but that was not what I answered to or quoted, respectively. However, the massdriver has a damage per shot of 40, so will take down a dretch with one shot, and literally every other wallwalking alien with two, and, again consulting my allmighty datasheet, this gives you one second to kill a fully healthed advanced basilisk at distance, while it would take you 1.6s to do that with a lasgun, a damage of 40 per shot is really nothing to mess with if you are an attacking alien, giving the zoomed view of the massdriver, this one can really be dangerous at distance, it may as well finish off a retreating bigger alien.

[GeneralScott]

Yeah, but in actual use, the MD will get more DPS on certain targets. The reality is that people miss a lot more with machineguns like the lasgun than rifles like the MD, and sometimes you just CAN'T keep a good aim at a target at all times, due to dancing and other manouvers. It's impossible (or hard) to aimbot-lock a mara jumping like crazy all over the place (over your head) to equal an MD hit, but with a single powerful shot, you can get the mara every time. OFC with tyrants and goons there really is no advantage, but then you basically have a slightly weakened shotgun with loads of range.

[Nux]

...this gives you one second to kill a fully healthed advanced basilisk at distance, while it would take you 1.6s to do that with a lasgun...

Actually, if you don't assume you're ready to fire at time zero and disregard the reload time of the massdriver, the time to pull off the first two shots of the massdriver and the first 8 shots of the lasgun (the amounts needed to kill an adv. basi) are actually the same (at 1.5 seconds). You get this by assuming instead that the player is any length of time between shots and so use the average time to first shot of each (0.5 seconds for massdriver and 0.1 seconds for lasgun). The time to pull off 1 shot after that for massdriver is 1 second so that total is 1.5s and to pull off 7 shots after the first lasgun shot takes 1.4 seconds, so again it's 1.5s.

Now if you take into acount massdriver reload time, the massdriver is actually slower. Now it just depends on whether you think it's fair to assume the massdriver is ready or not.

[ziplocpeople]

The lasgun is like the rifle? The lasgun is like the chaingun? I'm not even sure what game you guys are playing anymore.

Absolutely correct. Those weapons cannot be compared to each other for many reasons.

All of that aside, the lasgun is the superior weapon and can't really be compared to a lower accuracy weapon.

Wrong. Consulting my allmighty datasheed, I can state that a rifle deals a damage of 5/shot, a lasgun 9, but the rifle has a lesser repeat on one hand, but a reload on the other, so:

	rifle	lasgun
dps/clip	56	45
dps total	34	45

While firing a single clip, the rifle does indeed more damage than the lasgun, but: it has a reload (standard reload, two seconds) between clips, so in sustained fire, the rifle does less damage than the lasgun. Against small targets near you, the rifle is the better choice, against a bigger foe that has some distance between you and it, you're better off with the lasgun, and – important! – if your aim is not that good, you may be better off with a rifle, because the spread gives you a bigger area in which you may hit something.

The lasergun and the rifle have different characteristics, and, depending the tactical situation which implies your personal fighting style, one or the other may be the better choice, no matter the stage.

Sure they have different characteristics (and uses,) but if you were to average both of the dps's you gave for the rifle you'd get a nice and shiny 45. Anything wrong with this? Nothing really. However I don't think a mere clip removal, and pinpoint accuracy justifies the need for 250 creds. Hence my idea (in the op.) It'd make the lasgun more accessible to newbies, while still remaining similar enough to maintain its current uses.

[Nux]

Sure they have different characteristics (and uses,) but if you were to average both of the dps's you gave for the rifle you'd get a nice and shiny 45.

The first dps is disregarding reload and the second is taking it into account. The only time averaging the two values has any meaning is when you've spent half your time reloading+firing and half your time just firing.

If you like, later I'll make a little excel spreadsheet explaining the differences between all the weapons graphically.

[jm82792]

Yet again I've experienced mega pounce spam....
Needs to be fixed as it's ridiculous having a goon pick off a half dozen players in under 30 seconds.

[Celestial_Rage]

Must be a skilled goon or a noob human team.

[Nux]

Well here's a graph of the damage done in the first 10 seconds of continuous fire (including reloads) after the first shot.



Sorry if it looks a little cluttered, but this should let you see how certain weapons compare a little better than with just the numbers. For example, you can see that a painsaw does the same damage as a grenade after 2 seconds and after 5 seconds only the rifle, the lasgun, the massdriver and the blaster haven't done as much damage as one grenade.

Here's the excel sheet I made to simulate the weapons firing over time. It goes for a full minute of firing (all exhaustable weapons are exhausted by that point).

[Lakitu7]

Wow, that's really nice work, and an impressive lot of effort. I'd love to see something similar for aliens. People were having a hard time showing definitively the difference between pounce and chomp in various situations and some graphs would make it really clear.

What'd you do? Pull it from condumps with g_debugDamage?

[Nux]

It was done entirely on an excel spreadsheet (the end of that post gives you a link to it). I use excel not because it's the nicest way to do it, but because it's the quickest.

I hadn't actually heard of g_debugDamage till you mentioned it, so I tried it out and yes that would be an extremely slow way to gather and plot the values. As a test though, I recorded some damage data for painsaw, using it and found something odd.



As you can see the data values slightly differ from my predicted values. This is because rather than having a constant repeat interval of 75 ms like it purportedly has, the g_debugDamage shows it dealing damage after either 50 or 100 ms seemingly randomly. For this small sample of values the repeat interval averaged at about 80.

I don't know whether this is inherently how damage is dealt or whether it's to do with how g_debugDamage records it but I have noticed similarly odd patterns when slowing down demos and watching bullets being fired from the rifle. Anybody have any info on this?

[UniqPhoeniX]

Your reload times are calculated wrong: the 'cooldown' effect between shots is applied after last shot before reloading is started, which means there's (for shotgun and md) 3 seconds between last shot in a clip and first shot in next clip.
The server runs at 20 fps (50 msec intervals), which is why the psaw time is off.

Also: a 5MB microsoft excel file with 480 000 values that takes about 10min to open? (at least in open office) D:
How about Qalculate plot tool expressions? (with comments!) I actually created *most* of these just a few days ago.

Code: [Select]

x=time, y=damage, step size=0.005, min=0 max=50

Blaster 10(1+floor(x/0.6))
Rifle
    floor(x/0.09) //shows how many 0.09 second periods have passed
5(1+floor(x/0.09)) //a basic damage graph, starting at 5 and increasing by 5 every 0.09s
5(1+floor(rem(x,4.7)/0.09)) //repeat the same graph every 30 * 0.09 + 2 = 4.7s
    if(rem(x,4.7)<2.7 , 5(1+floor(rem(x,4.7)/0.09)) , 150) //stop increase at 2.7s of each 4.7s interval, set to 150 after
    if(rem(x,4.7)<2.7 , 5(1+floor(rem(x,4.7)/0.09)) , 150) + 150*floor(x/4.7) //add 150 for every 4.7s
if(x<30.9,   if(rem(x,4.7)<2.7 , 5(1+floor(rem(x,4.7)/0.09)) , 150) + 150*floor(x/4.7)   , 1050) //limit to 7 clips
Painsaw if(x<27.2, 11(1+floor(x/0.075)), 4000) //limited to 4000 to keep graph small
Shotgun if(x<38,   if(rem(x,10)<8 , 55(1+floor(rem(x,10))) , 440) + 440*floor(x/10)   , 1760)
Lasgun if(x<40, 9(1+floor(x/0.2)), 1800)
Mass Driver if(x<33,   if(rem(x,7)<5 , 40(1+floor(rem(x,7))) , 200) + 200*floor(x/7)   , 1000)
Chaingun if(x<24, 6(1+floor(x/0.08)), 1800)
Pulse Rifle if(x<34,   if(rem(x,6)<4 , 9(1+floor(rem(x,6)/0.1)) , 360) + 360*floor(x/6)   , 2160)
Flamer if(x<40, 20(1+floor(x/0.2)), 4000) //without splash
Lucifer Cannon
 min charge if(x<48, 9(floor(x/0.6)), 720) //from start of charge
 max charge if(x<28, 265(floor(x/3.5)), 2120)
 secondary if(x<80, 30(floor(x)), 2400) (no lines for weap+battpack, also the luci min (and somewhat max) charge total time & damage depends on the EXACT charge time since you can get 9-24 dmg for 1 ammo)
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/4817/tremulousweapondamagegr.png
EDIT: oops, blaster was way off (and still is in img)

[Nux]

Thanks for letting me know about the 'cool down' effect occuring before reload, I pressumed wrongly that it didn't.

I agree that's a lot nicer, I've just gotten into a habit of using excel (yes, I'm on MS Win7) which loads fairly fast for me despite it's size (I would have probably used matlab though, yet again because I'm used to it). Also to note is that many layMANs who see my post will have excel and using the file (provided it loads fast enough for them) they can edit the weapon specifications and view the results without much knowledge of how it works.

I will point out you seem to be using 1.1 values (such as 7 clips) which isn't so appropriate since this thread is about GPP.

I'll see what I can do with proper code later on but in the meantime, cheers for the reply.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Rifle DOES have 7 clips, the first clip + 6 extra. If there are any other mistakes, do point those out. I originally made a few of these during 1.1, though I think I changed all to 1.2 values.

[Meisseli]

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/4817/tremulousweapondamagegr.png

Where is the massdriver? Painsaw obviously seems to be wrong in the last seconds starting from ~27,27s.