1HKOs

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

this is something that has been greatly irritating me recently.  most games (including default Q3) have 0 one kit ko weapons.  please correct me if i am wrong about any of this next part -

goon - first alien available that can oneshot a helmetless human, with a chomp, or armorless human, with a full pounce.
rant - can oneshot helmetless humans with maul, and "near instantly" kill armorless humans with trample

shotgun - can oneshot dretches from down a hall or across the room, 2-shot basi's
MD - oneshots dretches, two for basi
nade - it oneshots dretches, basi's, perhaps even maras, but is more understandable, as a single use weapon.
luci - oneshots up to maras with a charged shot, easily oneshots below maras with splash that deceptively extends far past the particle effect.

a close runner up is the flamer, that while it does not kill instantly, you can run around spraying all over the place and be reasonably sure that anything mara and below that you graze is dead, or close to it.

it bugs me to see thinly disguised q3 weapons in so unbalanced a state.

and before i continue, yes i do know that aliens win slightly more total games.  i think this may be due to the losing human team not knowing when to stop camping and start attacking, as so much human equipment is conducive to camping.

the right idea is demonstrated in naked rifle vs dretch.  5 bullets need to strike the dretch to kill it, the human needs to suffer two headbites.  it is beyond this stage that things fall by the wayside.  tyrant vs lucisuit is also fairly balanced.

i think part of this may be because human weapons have a lot of "role overlap".  what do i use for mid to close range combat, a flamer or shotgun?  are the relatively minor advantages of the lasgun different enough from the rifle?  what is the point of the pulse rifle?  (especially as "rocketjumping" is in.... no plasma climbing?)

human weapons tend to come in four dichotomous flavors - mid to close range vs mid to far range, and kills less than mara with one shot vs kills less than mara in more than one shot.  as i said, there is quite a bit of overlap. for example, a shotgun and a MD are indistinguishable at close range. 

while i dont really have any suggestions for "fixing" this, i'll end here.  it just annoyed me to no end to see trem using flawed balance like this, a balance issue not present in the original game trem is modded from.

[NotYarou]

Railgun was insta-kill w/o any armor.
If you know how to use rocket launcher, it's also an insta-kill.

Not sure what the point of your post is, because there are no "1 hit KO" weapons in Tremulous. Each attack can be dodged in a different way, and if you're dying a lot it generally means you don't understand the game mechanics of GPP. Following your logic, if you see a dretch with 5 HP and you shoot it with your rifle, the rifle becomes a "1 hit KO" weapon.

[SirDude]

Don't you think there is a reason Q3 or trem doesn't have any instakill weapons that apply to everything?


I DO however agree with what you said on the pulse rifle, it does nothing superior that any cheaper weapon can do better.

[c4]

Luci can kill a goon+ in 1 hit as well.

[kharnov]

I DO however agree with what you said on the pulse rifle, it does nothing superior that any cheaper weapon can do better.

I don't think you're using the pulse rifle correctly. With a battery pack, you have the same amount of ammo as a lasgun and a chaingun, while clearly outperforming both weapons. You have the precision of the lasgun due to the lack of spread, and double damage per second. Unlike the chaingun, you don't suffer from absurd amounts of recoil and you can refill it at repeaters since it's an energy weapon. Since the pulse rifle's shots aren't hitscan, you can still manage to hurt things while dodging around if you're in an area heavily packed with aliens and their buildings. That's the point of the pulse rifle: dealing with lots of things in tightly packed areas at variable ranges. It's a rush weapon and it's more versatile than the flamer or painsaw, both of which will not save you from being swarmed by aliens because they don't have the range of the pulse rifle.

[/dev/humancontroller]

I DO however agree with what you said on the pulse rifle, it does nothing superior that any cheaper weapon can do better.

I don't think you're using the pulse rifle correctly. With a battery pack, you have the same amount of ammo as a lasgun and a chaingun, while clearly outperforming both weapons. You have the precision of the lasgun due to the lack of spread, and double damage per second. Unlike the chaingun, you don't suffer from absurd amounts of recoil and you can refill it at repeaters since it's an energy weapon. Since the pulse rifle's shots aren't hitscan, you can still manage to hurt things while dodging around if you're in an area heavily packed with aliens and their buildings. That's the point of the pulse rifle: dealing with lots of things in tightly packed areas at variable ranges. It's a rush weapon and it's more versatile than the flamer or painsaw, both of which will not save you from being swarmed by aliens because they don't have the range of the pulse rifle.

[/dev/humancontroller]

while i dont really have any suggestions for "fixing" this, i'll end here.  it just annoyed me to no end to see trem using flawed balance like this, a balance issue not present in the original game trem is modded from.

and unfortunately, just a few relatively simple tweaks will not yield a game balance of Q3's quality. Tremulous' game logic design is seriously flawed from many professional perspectives, and it cannot be significantly helped without designing a new game logic from scratch. (u're not the first one to notice this.)

[Dracone]

The pulse rifle's most useful purpose is sniping alien base structures, although it's great up close too.

Kharnov is absolutely right, if you think the pulse rifle is that lacking in worth, you probably just suck with it. I use it often and it's worth 400 creds for sure, though weapon values in this game are really fucked now in the broad scope if you look at the flamer. That shit needs to be changed.

[F50]

this is something that has been greatly irritating me recently.  most games (including default Q3) have 0 one kit ko weapons.

and unfortunately, just a few relatively simple tweaks will not yield a game balance of Q3's quality. Tremulous' game logic design is seriously flawed from many professional perspectives, and it cannot be significantly helped without designing a new game logic from scratch. (u're not the first one to notice this.)

You'll have to expound upon this. I'm sure that there are some things less than completely balanced about tremulous, but the topic's complaint is far from reasonable. I personally really enjoyed the early Rainbow 6 games (competitively), and COD4's hardcore mode looks quite nice, although I haven't had the opportunity to play it. Both of these games feature 1-hit kill weapons, and the weaker weapons in those settings require 6 hits at most. Another major Q3 game, Urban Terror, features the SR8, which will usually 1-hit kill. The only recent and well-known competitive FPS game that I am aware of that doesn't have any 1-hit kill weapons (I won't count vehicles here I guess) is halo. Of course, I am mostly unaware of commercial games, so forgive me if I missed a few other decent titles.

i think part of this may be because human weapons have a lot of "role overlap".  what do i use for mid to close range combat, a flamer or shotgun?  are the relatively minor advantages of the lasgun different enough from the rifle?  what is the point of the pulse rifle?  (especially as "rocketjumping" is in.... no plasma climbing?)

human weapons tend to come in four dichotomous flavors - mid to close range vs mid to far range, and kills less than mara with one shot vs kills less than mara in more than one shot.  as i said, there is quite a bit of overlap. for example, a shotgun and a MD are indistinguishable at close range.

Kharnov once said that all of the human weapons have overlap, they all do damage. But I find it odd that people keep putting the rifle and the lasgun together as being too similar. Sure, they are the most similar weapons in the game, but the rifle is free, while you actually have to pay credits for the lasgun, which does less damage. I'd take this as evidence that the lasgun's defining feature, that you don't have to reload it, makes a difference. To be fair this is shared with the chaingun, lucifer cannon, and painsaw, but I hardly think you can make a case that those weapons are similar to the lasgun. Finally, I'd like to bring urbanterror up again. The weapons are different in urbanterror, but its weapons are far less varied than in tremulous. Why is having varied weapons even strictly necessary anyways? Necessary for balance?

I won't argue on the flamer. While I disagree with you somewhat, it was subject to a recent buff and I really don't have enough knowledge of the game to give you the best answer. Finally, as a nitpick: the luci can kill adv-goons in 1 shot. Its a BFG.

[Qrntz]

The weapons are different in urbanterror

Last I checked LR300 and M4 were exactly they same. Though, for some reason, having the same stats, they felt different. LR300 is still the most popular weapon, but that doesn't change the fact someone actually uses M4.
Completely identical weapons with different model and different sound can make a difference big enough for nobody to get picky about it and anyone to just choose his weapon. Do you still think Tremulous is being a copycat?

[Nux]

There's only one weapon I don't have much use for, and that's the shotty. But even then that's not because it's a bad weapon, just that I like my accuracy in the early game. All other weapons I find very useful and if any complaint can be made against them, it would be that they're all too damn cheap. I wouldn't mind playing a mod that quadrupled the price of everything.

Anyhow, I don't really see your point RAKninja. Why exactly does 1HKO = unbalanced? Especially when both teams have their fair share of quick kills.

[Qrntz]

There's only one weapon I don't have much use for, and that's the shotty.

I am dissapoint.
Shotgun is equal to MD at close ranges while being cheaper and having a bigger clip. That's why it's my most used weapon after the rifle.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

Railgun was insta-kill w/o any armor.
If you know how to use rocket launcher, it's also an insta-kill.

Not sure what the point of your post is, because there are no "1 hit KO" weapons in Tremulous. Each attack can be dodged in a different way, and if you're dying a lot it generally means you don't understand the game mechanics of GPP. Following your logic, if you see a dretch with 5 HP and you shoot it with your rifle, the rifle becomes a "1 hit KO" weapon.

you need to play q3 again.  both require two hits.  this is why you get a "medal" for two direct railshots in a row.  granted it's two hits to kill from a fresh spawn, but it makes a difference.

"1 hit ko" is taken to mean from a fresh spawn, with full HP.  this is why your q3 examples are incorrect, and why rifle does not count as 1 hit ko on a 5hp dretch.

this is something that has been greatly irritating me recently.  most games (including default Q3) have 0 one kit ko weapons.

and unfortunately, just a few relatively simple tweaks will not yield a game balance of Q3's quality. Tremulous' game logic design is seriously flawed from many professional perspectives, and it cannot be significantly helped without designing a new game logic from scratch. (u're not the first one to notice this.)

You'll have to expound upon this. I'm sure that there are some things less than completely balanced about tremulous, but the topic's complaint is far from reasonable. I personally really enjoyed the early Rainbow 6 games (competitively), and COD4's hardcore mode looks quite nice, although I haven't had the opportunity to play it. Both of these games feature 1-hit kill weapons, and the weaker weapons in those settings require 6 hits at most. Another major Q3 game, Urban Terror, features the SR8, which will usually 1-hit kill. The only recent and well-known competitive FPS game that I am aware of that doesn't have any 1-hit kill weapons (I won't count vehicles here I guess) is halo. Of course, I am mostly unaware of commercial games, so forgive me if I missed a few other decent titles.

i think part of this may be because human weapons have a lot of "role overlap".  what do i use for mid to close range combat, a flamer or shotgun?  are the relatively minor advantages of the lasgun different enough from the rifle?  what is the point of the pulse rifle?  (especially as "rocketjumping" is in.... no plasma climbing?)

human weapons tend to come in four dichotomous flavors - mid to close range vs mid to far range, and kills less than mara with one shot vs kills less than mara in more than one shot.  as i said, there is quite a bit of overlap. for example, a shotgun and a MD are indistinguishable at close range.

Kharnov once said that all of the human weapons have overlap, they all do damage. But I find it odd that people keep putting the rifle and the lasgun together as being too similar. Sure, they are the most similar weapons in the game, but the rifle is free, while you actually have to pay credits for the lasgun, which does less damage. I'd take this as evidence that the lasgun's defining feature, that you don't have to reload it, makes a difference. To be fair this is shared with the chaingun, lucifer cannon, and painsaw, but I hardly think you can make a case that those weapons are similar to the lasgun. Finally, I'd like to bring urbanterror up again. The weapons are different in urbanterror, but its weapons are far less varied than in tremulous. Why is having varied weapons even strictly necessary anyways? Necessary for balance?

I won't argue on the flamer. While I disagree with you somewhat, it was subject to a recent buff and I really don't have enough knowledge of the game to give you the best answer. Finally, as a nitpick: the luci can kill adv-goons in 1 shot. Its a BFG.

is this Q3 or R6?  R6, asyou say, is more deadly all around.  if we're taking the "hardcore" or "realistic" approach to damage, please adjust all other weapons and attacks i did not list in my op to be more deadly.  as it stands, either a weapon/attack is super effective, or it flat out takes too long to get a kill. 

yes, all weapons do damage, but that is not overlap.  you'll notice that most weapons do something better than others.  this gives the distinction of, say, a pulse rifle being better for rushing than a lasgun.

also, the luci is a rocket.  q3 BFG was rapid fire.

Anyhow, I don't really see your point RAKninja. Why exactly does 1HKO = unbalanced? Especially when both teams have their fair share of quick kills.

well, humans have at least twice as many possibilities for a oneshot.  that's not balanced.  it's not balanced that some fuck with no ability to aim and a MD can mouseover an egg, and oneshot dretches as fast as they spawn.  it's not balanced in that a team of marginally organised humans can set up a tent at the end of a hall, and with the right weapon setup, be completely unassailable, and kill anything that peeks around the corner (these humans are spamming, not waiting for aliens to show themselves) the very instant a pixel of their hitbox extends past said corner.

it's not balanced that a human has but to buy larmor and a helm and be nearly immune to oneshots, while an alien MUST get a rant (as you guys pointed out, not even adv goon is safe)  i'm not sure about my evo to creds conversion, but that does not look equivalent.

furthermore, it's just not fun.  while someone who can aim and has a MD, like you for example,  might be having a barrel of laughs at their clay-dretch range, it is no fun for someone on the other side.  telling someone to "get better and learn to dodge" is no help, especially against someone who can aim as you do, and kill a dretch with nearly every shot in your MD.

[/dev/humancontroller]

surprizingly well-stated. :o

[/dev/humancontroller]

if you think the pulse rifle is that lacking in worth, you probably just suck with it.

not at all. however, it cannot be stated that the pulse rifle outperforms the chaingun. furthermore, in reply to

Since the pulse rifle's shots aren't hitscan, you can still manage to hurt things while dodging around if you're in an area heavily packed with aliens and their buildings.

: as if hitscan weapons weren't any more fit for the same case...

[SirDude]

I don't think you're using the pulse rifle correctly. With a battery pack, you have the same amount of ammo as a lasgun and a chaingun, while clearly outperforming both weapons. You have the precision of the lasgun due to the lack of spread, and double damage per second. Unlike the chaingun, you don't suffer from absurd amounts of recoil and you can refill it at repeaters since it's an energy weapon. Since the pulse rifle's shots aren't hitscan, you can still manage to hurt things while dodging around if you're in an area heavily packed with aliens and their buildings. That's the point of the pulse rifle: dealing with lots of things in tightly packed areas at variable ranges. It's a rush weapon and it's more versatile than the flamer or painsaw, both of which will not save you from being swarmed by aliens because they don't have the range of the pulse rifle.

I Love the pulse rifle I try to use it all the time, but the fact that you have to reload and that it isnt hit scan means that every shot has far to much worth for what it can dish out. The pulse rifle is mediocre and i find myself just being far more efficient with the lass gun when i am alone or even with a team most of the time.  

if i have to defend myself when being attacked by a mara, its hard to win with a pulse rifle, lass gun makes it a walk in the park most of the time for me. with a goon, the pulse rifle can beat the lass gun but that's if you dont fuck up what soever.

in my opinion the pulse rifle isnt a offensive weapon, its a defense one, and its the best defensive weapon in the game when fighting bigger targets defensively. but the lass gun is just as good if not better as it can kill small targets far faster, start dealing its damage first, more ammo efficient, cheaper, and isn't tho shabby when it comes to the big game.

The pulse rifle's most useful purpose is sniping alien base structures, although it's great up close too.

Kharnov is absolutely right, if you think the pulse rifle is that lacking in worth, you probably just suck with it. I use it often and it's worth 400 creds for sure, though weapon values in this game are really fucked now in the broad scope if you look at the flamer. That shit needs to be changed.

 BECAUSE TOTALLY RATIONAL TO ASSUME I SUCK WITH THE PULSE RIFLE JUST BECAUSE I THINK ITS MEDIOCRE

[Plague Bringer]

RAKninja, while I can completely appreciate your lengthy post and the thought you put into it, there are some glaring faults of logic.

well, humans have at least twice as many possibilities for a oneshot.  that's not balanced.  it's not balanced that some fuck with no ability to aim and a MD can mouseover an egg, and oneshot dretches as fast as they spawn.  it's not balanced in that a team of marginally organised humans can set up a tent at the end of a hall, and with the right weapon setup, be completely unassailable, and kill anything that peeks around the corner (these humans are spamming, not waiting for aliens to show themselves) the very instant a pixel of their hitbox extends past said corner.

You're being incredibly biased. It's perfectly balanced that someone can take potshots at new spawns from an unprotected egg/node. You might say that it's easier for humans to pull this off than it is aliens. Well I say it's easier to defend the bombsite than it is to assault it. Imbalance? No. Alien bases need more attention, it's a fact of the game.

it's not balanced that a human has but to buy larmor and a helm and be nearly immune to oneshots, while an alien MUST get a rant (as you guys pointed out, not even adv goon is safe)  i'm not sure about my evo to creds conversion, but that does not look equivalent.

Humans are more susceptible to oneshots at stages one and two than aliens (assuming even stages). At stage three, I'd say that the amount of oneshot luci kills in any given game are A) negligibly few in number and B) lucky shots. I think that does away with any claims of "imbalance" because one team has "better weapons".

furthermore, it's just not fun.  while someone who can aim and has a MD, like you for example,  might be having a barrel of laughs at their clay-dretch range, it is no fun for someone on the other side.  telling someone to "get better and learn to dodge" is no help, especially against someone who can aim as you do, and kill a dretch with nearly every shot in your MD.

You are mistaking balance with handicap. If this was at the beginning if your post I would've stopped right there because it's such an idiotic statement. Of course it's not fun when you're losing. Nor is it fun when you face an opponent that is A) much better than you or B) better equipped. If you're in a situation where you're being smashed, then it is not solely the fault of "imbalance". Multiple things play in to getting your arse kicked, those being A) joining late B) being outclassed C) being outskilled. If you join late, your bitching is invalidated because the game is stacked against you. If you're outclassed (dretch vs MD) your bitching is invalidated because MDs are better than dretches (oh no, imba, right?). And if you're outskilled, suck it up. The fourth thing that plays in to getting your arse kicked is, of course, imbalance, but I propose that in any dretch vs MD situation, the dretch did something wrong (didn't play to the best of their ability/made a mistake so nerfed their ability) or just isn't good enough.

[/dev/humancontroller]

Plague Bringer: u're missing the point. the point isn't that aliens beat humans, nor that humans beat aliens. the point is that the outcome of in-game scenarios is dispersed with respect to invested gaming effort.

[/dev/humancontroller]

and before i continue, yes i do know that aliens win slightly more total games.  i think this may be due to the losing human team not knowing when to stop camping and start attacking, as so much human equipment is conducive to camping.

i have a different theory: mostly, n00bs can't handle controlling aliens, so they join the humans.

[Meisseli]

Hey, evolve/buy equipment, it's a pretty vital part of the game!

[Nux]

well, humans have at least twice as many possibilities for a oneshot.  that's not balanced.

I don't follow. No matter how many options a human has, he can only pick one of them at a time. Surely, what matters is whether the individual options balance against the enemy's, taking into account the cost of each choice and the situations where the weapon is effective. Also I feel as though aliens have plenty enough choice when it comes to movement around the map which the much slower humans don't have so much control over.

So far, you have only given examples that are already out of the aliens favour for reasons outside game balance, as Plague Bringer has said. I still don't see an inherent problem with the high-risk scenarios that high-damage weapons create (in fact, that's what makes tremulous exciting).

furthermore, it's just not fun.  while someone who can aim and has a MD, like you for example,  might be having a barrel of laughs at their clay-dretch range, it is no fun for someone on the other side.  telling someone to "get better and learn to dodge" is no help, especially against someone who can aim as you do, and kill a dretch with nearly every shot in your MD.

I must admit, I do enjoy the "clay-dretch range". I also enjoy facing such an opponent who makes me work hard as a dretch. In any case, I'm happy to recieve your compliments and I'm sorry if I've annoyed you with my frequent use of the massdriver.

[F50]

I should also point out that the MD is a counter for dretches. It has very low DPS and does all of its damage in bursts. Besides dretches and basilisks, which are suseptible to that kind of attack, the only advantage that the MD has against a rifle is that it does its damage in bursts (which, depending on how you aim, could potentially be a bad thing), and that comes at a cost of 15 DPS. Yes, counters should tend to win against the thing it is supposed to counter.

devhc, I still don't understand what you are saying, because you are not saying anything with sufficient verbosity. As long as the "disperson" is similar for humans and aliens, or as long as the dispersons works out to be mostly even, balance should be maintained. Its possible I've misjudged your definition of effort, but you need to make.

Rakninja, I enjoy using goons and marauders (although admittedly, more marauders than goons) to take out lucifer cannons. Yes, I can be oneshotted, but that doesn't mean the fight is imbalanced. In fact, against all but the most skilled opponents who have learned to predict marauder movement well, I find adv marauder has a significant advantage in a 1vs1 vs a lucifer cannon. The ability to be oneshotted means nothing. Please, explain how oneshots are unbalanced (or prove me wrong in a series of 1vs1s mara+/goon+ vs luci).

For those of you who are clay-dretches (and I have been this myself, and recently), you have to think more tactically. If there is a massdriver sitting at the end of a hall, you have three choices: do some l33t dodging (potentially in a group with other dretches), wait for a non-dretch to go first, or don't go down that hall. If you choose the latter, you have two choices, you can sit at your end of the hall, and wait until a human comes your way, giving you the advantage (you probably won't have to wait long), or you can go fight in another part of the map.Remember, humans tend to have the advantage in hallways, you have the advantage of surprise (in s1), and prefer to begin an engagement at shorter range. If you're being a clay dretch, its because you think you are better than your MD opponent, or because you're not thinking tactically. Try to engage enemies when you have the upper hand, and not when your position is weak. The advantage of terrain means a lot in tremulous (and GPP more so). Taking out s1 MDs as a dretch is easier than taking out shotguns, if you engage them at short range, as has already been pointed out.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

RAKninja, while I can completely appreciate your lengthy post and the thought you put into it, there are some glaring faults of logic.

You're being incredibly biased. It's perfectly balanced that someone can take potshots at new spawns from an unprotected egg/node. You might say that it's easier for humans to pull this off than it is aliens. Well I say it's easier to defend the bombsite than it is to assault it. Imbalance? No. Alien bases need more attention, it's a fact of the game.

Humans are more susceptible to oneshots at stages one and two than aliens (assuming even stages). At stage three, I'd say that the amount of oneshot luci kills in any given game are A) negligibly few in number and B) lucky shots. I think that does away with any claims of "imbalance" because one team has "better weapons".

You are mistaking balance with handicap. If this was at the beginning if your post I would've stopped right there because it's such an idiotic statement. Of course it's not fun when you're losing. Nor is it fun when you face an opponent that is A) much better than you or B) better equipped. If you're in a situation where you're being smashed, then it is not solely the fault of "imbalance". Multiple things play in to getting your arse kicked, those being A) joining late B) being outclassed C) being outskilled. If you join late, your bitching is invalidated because the game is stacked against you. If you're outclassed (dretch vs MD) your bitching is invalidated because MDs are better than dretches (oh no, imba, right?). And if you're outskilled, suck it up. The fourth thing that plays in to getting your arse kicked is, of course, imbalance, but I propose that in any dretch vs MD situation, the dretch did something wrong (didn't play to the best of their ability/made a mistake so nerfed their ability) or just isn't good enough.

first paragraph - spawn into new game.  gotta get the drop on someone so you are not vulnerable dretch long.  doh, there was a human at the end of that hall.  spawn again.  hmmm, that human has killed ALL my teammates, looking at the killspam, better flank him.  oh, wait, the hall he's at the end of only has one other approach, another long hall he has but to flick his wrist to cover.  oh great, HIS team has reached him, and one of them got me.  spawn as dretch.  hey wait, someone got creds enough for SG or MD and is camping the eggs, i spawn than instantly am 3rd in the que again, shame on me for not giving the base as much attention as it needs!

second paragraph - more susceptible?  are you forgetting that human weapons have range?  are you forgetting SG, MD (one hit for dretches, 2 for basi) PS (not "one shot" but damn near instant under mara at least) are all s1 weapons?  are you forgetting that it takes about a seconds worth of riflefire to kill a dretch?  are you forgetting that humans have a specific target to hit, but aliens take the same damage everywhere?  

third paragraph.  i have fun while losing.  so long as the battle is a hard fought one.  when both teams reach s3 and there is no one single player on either side carrying the rest of the team, that's a good game to me.  win or loss does not matter.

the dretch did something wrong?  by spawning?  i dont follow your logic there.  i also dont get "outclassed" as even a bsuit can dodge faster than a dretch can move.

Hey, evolve/buy equipment, it's a pretty vital part of the game!

it's not balanced that a human has but to buy larmor and a helm and be nearly immune to oneshots, while an alien MUST get a rant (as you guys pointed out, not even adv goon is safe)  i'm not sure about my evo to creds conversion, but that does not look equivalent.

well, humans have at least twice as many possibilities for a oneshot.  that's not balanced.

I don't follow. No matter how many options a human has, he can only pick one of them at a time. Surely, what matters is whether the individual options balance against the enemy's, taking into account the cost of each choice and the situations where the weapon is effective. Also I feel as though aliens have plenty enough choice when it comes to movement around the map which the much slower humans don't have so much control over.

So far, you have only given examples that are already out of the aliens favour for reasons outside game balance, as Plague Bringer has said. I still don't see an inherent problem with the high-risk scenarios that high-damage weapons create (in fact, that's what makes tremulous exciting).

furthermore, it's just not fun.  while someone who can aim and has a MD, like you for example,  might be having a barrel of laughs at their clay-dretch range, it is no fun for someone on the other side.  telling someone to "get better and learn to dodge" is no help, especially against someone who can aim as you do, and kill a dretch with nearly every shot in your MD.

I must admit, I do enjoy the "clay-dretch range". I also enjoy facing such an opponent who makes me work hard as a dretch. In any case, I'm happy to recieve your compliments and I'm sorry if I've annoyed you with my frequent use of the massdriver.

how about this situation, as i've been seeing it quite a bit recently.  you say that choosing one option limits you.  sure it does, till you get a teammate.  how to overcome MD being too accurate for up close work?  bring a buddy with a SG, that way, nothing short of a goon can stop you, and it better be a fairly decent goon at that.  you two will kill perhaps even maras with one shot each... no more than two.  and those are s1 weapons.  add in helmet and larmor, you're pretty much invulnerable except running out of ammo, or any good goons that happen to be playing. at least until something you cannot oneshot - the tyrant, is available.

movement - i've bitched about this before.  with the correct application of the luci, and medpack (preferably on a bsuit so you conserve max HP) you can lucijump.  lucijumping might actually beat out alien manoeuvrability - to doesent fuck your view up disoriently, like wallwalk.  it's faster than pounce, or any other form of alien movement.  oh, and dont forget about the jetpack, giving humans complete mobility in a 3d area of space, unlike wallwalk, goon pounces, trample, and mara hop.  oh yea, and humans can dodge at 1000 ups.  that's 400 more ups than dretch runspeed, and 200 more ups than a dretch can make his first strafejump (admittedly, i havent even attempted a circlejump, the distorted FoV fucks me up)

and nux, you dont annoy me much.... just kill the damn egg and get it over with.


f50, i'm not going to quote your post, so bear with me.

if MD is "counter" for dretches, as you say, this is very flawed game design. you do not need a "counter" for basic equipment.  what's the counter for a naked human?  oh, yea, ANYTHING.

so you like maras.  i can and have killed luci wielders with a basi.  and yes, the fight is unbalanced.  they are using s3 gear, you - at best - are a s2 alien.  a oneshot there, especially from a luci, is acceptable (it's just that deceptive splash that gets my goat).

if you do not know how oneshots are unbalancing, i invite you to play some team CTF in q3.  not with me, mind you, i'm too rusty in q3... i'll keep trying to wallwalk and shit.  but do it.  play spaceCTF exclusively for a couple hours, for a couple of days.  THEN you'll realise why oneshots are imbalancing.

oh, and as to your advice on flanking, see my above example to plague bringer.  many (if not most) maps have at least one hallway where it is next to impossible to dislodge camping humans.

again i declare my point.  trem is not fun when you feel like you are playing with a bunch of oneshotting aimbotters.  (yes, i know, i'd be amazed if someone bothered to actually use an aimbot, but still, you have fux like nux...)

[Plague Bringer]

if you do not know how oneshots are unbalancing, i invite you to play some team CTF in q3.  not with me, mind you, i'm too rusty in q3... i'll keep trying to wallwalk and shit.  but do it.  play spaceCTF exclusively for a couple hours, for a couple of days.  THEN you'll realise why oneshots are imbalancing.

First of all, I want you to drop the comparisons with other games (Q3). Tremulous is not Q3, and it is not even similar to Q3 (unless you consider having teams and guns a similarity). You cannot tell me that X in Y game is imbalanced, therefore X in inherently imbalanced in games A, B, and Z, too. It simply does not work that way.

first paragraph - spawn into new game.  gotta get the drop on someone so you are not vulnerable dretch long.  doh, there was a human at the end of that hall.  spawn again.  hmmm, that human has killed ALL my teammates, looking at the killspam, better flank him.  oh, wait, the hall he's at the end of only has one other approach, another long hall he has but to flick his wrist to cover.  oh great, HIS team has reached him, and one of them got me.  spawn as dretch.  hey wait, someone got creds enough for SG or MD and is camping the eggs, i spawn than instantly am 3rd in the que again, shame on me for not giving the base as much attention as it needs!

There are plenty of things in this situation that have resulted in alien team losing, and the category that they fall under is not "imbalance", it's "human error". AKA fucking up AKA outclassed AKA outgunned AKA not good enough AKAnotu. If "that human" has killed every single one of your teammates, your teammates fucked up. By the time they get an MD you should have a mara or a goon. If you didn't, it's because you sucked. Not because rifle vs dretch is imba. The same goes for humans. If you don't have shotguns by goon, you sucked. No, it's not about oneshotting, it's about killing potential. You'll find that the MD's is minimal, and the goon's is high. Yes, it is unfortunate when you are the player meant to carry your team, but your teammates contribute too much to helping the enemy so you get into a situation where you get outgunned, but that is not "imbalance". That is "your team sucks". Quit trying to blame shitty playing on imbalance.

second paragraph - more susceptible?  are you forgetting that human weapons have range?  are you forgetting SG, MD (one hit for dretches, 2 for basi) PS (not "one shot" but damn near instant under mara at least) are all s1 weapons?  are you forgetting that it takes about a seconds worth of riflefire to kill a dretch?  are you forgetting that humans have a specific target to hit, but aliens take the same damage everywhere?

I have been one shotted by a goon more than an MD or shotty. Also, stop bitching about 2 shot basis or one second of fire if you argument is supposedly about one shot imbalance. Either bitch about one shot imbalance or bitch about high damage output weapons, but not both. You're confusing your arguments and weakening them. "Oh, oneshots are imba, and the evidence I'm going to use for this is 2shot basis." That's bullshit.

No, I'm not forgetting that humans have range. Are you forgetting that, when playing aliens, the goal is to stay out of sight until you can bite them?

Also, you're assuming that "different" is inherently bad. Yes, humans and aliens have different hitboxes. Yes, that could lend itself to imbalance. Does it? No. Much of your argument is based on playing classes poorly. Dretches should not rush down halls at anything. Basilisks should not be seen. The marauder is the first pure offense class after the dretch, and even then it's more powerful as a base race weapon. Goons are an extremely potent oneshot weapon. I'd say they're more effective than the MD, because as you've said the MD can oneshot only one class (weapon), whereas the goon has the potential to one shot any weapon the human has.

third paragraph.  i have fun while losing.  so long as the battle is a hard fought one.  when both teams reach s3 and there is no one single player on either side carrying the rest of the team, that's a good game to me.  win or loss does not matter.

the dretch did something wrong?  by spawning?  i dont follow your logic there.  i also dont get "outclassed" as even a bsuit can dodge faster than a dretch can move.

If you join an in-progress game, you're at a disadvantage. That's what i said. If you join an in-progress game, you can't expect balance to be had. You're outgunned. Also, if you suck, you can't expect balance to be had. You're outskilled.

To end: you're aware that certain tactical decisions (pushing up a hall as opposed to an open space) lend themselves to certain teams, right? And that certain tactical decisions are better than others? That an MD will have a hay day in arachnid halls but not in the tighter areas? That not every situation is good for every weapon or alien? If you play your alien or weapon right, you'll learn that just because the human has the potential to one-shot doesn't mean he will. The MD can oneshot only one alien, and the luci can oneshot only when given time. You're bitching about two weapons being OP because A) you confront them in situations that aren't favorable to you, or B) your opponent is lucky and kills you in a situation that should be favorable to you. Both of those things happen in every game (and real life). They are facts that you need to get used to. Learn the game, and play to the strengths of your class - oneshots won't matter.

[Nux]

I apologize if I repeat anything that Plague says, this was a long post and he got inb4 me.

first paragraph - spawn into new game.  gotta get the drop on someone so you are not vulnerable dretch long.  doh, there was a human at the end of that hall.  spawn again.  hmmm, that human has killed ALL my teammates, looking at the killspam, better flank him.  oh, wait, the hall he's at the end of only has one other approach, another long hall he has but to flick his wrist to cover.  oh great, HIS team has reached him, and one of them got me.  spawn as dretch.  hey wait, someone got creds enough for SG or MD and is camping the eggs, i spawn than instantly am 3rd in the que again, shame on me for not giving the base as much attention as it needs!

Seems to me you could just as easily apply the same logic to the reverse situation where you used ambush and hit+run tactics on the rushing humans taking full advantage of the aliens speed, healing and decentralised upgrades and fed off their feeders. Aliens don't have to come out from the safety of their base and a corner camping alien has the advantage over the human. I will admit that it's slightly harder to win a fast game as alien but that's only because to do so requires teamplay that would actually trump good aim. Teamplay changes everything and sadly you on't see it enough in public games.

second paragraph - more susceptible?  are you forgetting that human weapons have range?  are you forgetting SG, MD (one hit for dretches, 2 for basi) PS (not "one shot" but damn near instant under mara at least) are all s1 weapons?  are you forgetting that it takes about a seconds worth of riflefire to kill a dretch?  are you forgetting that humans have a specific target to hit, but aliens take the same damage everywhere?  

You seem to be forgetting how tiny, nimble and hard hitting aliens are as well. Range is all the humans really have over aliens, so I wouldn't be surprised that it's a big factor in how well they perform. Your job as the alien is to limit encounters to close range encounters and the alien classes are quite adept at that task.

the dretch did something wrong?  by spawning?  i dont follow your logic there.  i also dont get "outclassed" as even a bsuit can dodge faster than a dretch can move.

Funny you should say that because I find bsuits quite susceptible to dretch attacks despite the fact that the battlesuit costs so much and the dretch doesn't cost at all. I'm not saying that an individual bsuit vs a single dretch is much for the bsuit to fret over, or that he'd do better if he were in light armour. I'm saying that for the human's strongest form against the aliens weakest, the dretch can do quite a lot more than say matching up a tyrant and a naked rifleman. The tyrant would dominate the situation even in range because of it's speed, yet the battlesuit can easily be pestered by a peek-a-boo dretch.

how about this situation, as i've been seeing it quite a bit recently.  you say that choosing one option limits you.  sure it does, till you get a teammate.  how to overcome MD being too accurate for up close work?  bring a buddy with a SG, that way, nothing short of a goon can stop you, and it better be a fairly decent goon at that.  you two will kill perhaps even maras with one shot each... no more than two.  and those are s1 weapons.  add in helmet and larmor, you're pretty much invulnerable except running out of ammo, or any good goons that happen to be playing. at least until something you cannot oneshot - the tyrant, is available.

What you are talking about is teamwork and you seem to be suggesting the aliens can't just as easily gang up on a human.

movement - i've bitched about this before.  with the correct application of the luci, and medpack (preferably on a bsuit so you conserve max HP) you can lucijump.  lucijumping might actually beat out alien manoeuvrability - to doesent fuck your view up disoriently, like wallwalk.  it's faster than pounce, or any other form of alien movement.  oh, and dont forget about the jetpack, giving humans complete mobility in a 3d area of space, unlike wallwalk, goon pounces, trample, and mara hop.  oh yea, and humans can dodge at 1000 ups.  that's 400 more ups than dretch runspeed, and 200 more ups than a dretch can make his first strafejump (admittedly, i havent even attempted a circlejump, the distorted FoV fucks me up)

I wouldn't compare short bursts of movement which reduce health/stamina with the constant high speeds aliens achieve. There's an outright winner in that match-up.

and nux, you dont annoy me much.... just kill the damn egg and get it over with.

I don't spawn camp needlessly. I do spawncamp, but only until I'm sure it's safe to kill off the egg. If I didn't do this then I would find myself reloading when a dretch spawned and suddenly I'm the one at risk in the alien's home turf.

[Meisseli]

You seem to have a lot of words, and I tried reading half of them, but got bored seeing as they didn't seem to have much content at all.

You should change the topic name to "Dretch sucks", since 75% of the topic seems to be whining about it, and how lucifer cannon/massdriver one-shots dretches or such. Oh noes, evolve.

There's a reason there exist such things as tyrants and lucifer cannons, and it's called staging. You get a new stage, you get better equipment to be able to finish the game. That's another pretty vital part of the game. If you try to compare s1 weaponry with s3 weaponry and find the former lack in power, don't be surprised. It's how the game works, and it makes me pretty confused why you haven't noticed it earlier.

[Menace13]

Oh noes, evolve.

/thread

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

First of all, I want you to drop the comparisons with other games (Q3). Tremulous is not Q3, and it is not even similar to Q3 (unless you consider having teams and guns a similarity). You cannot tell me that X in Y game is imbalanced, therefore X in inherently imbalanced in games A, B, and Z, too. It simply does not work that way.


There are plenty of things in this situation that have resulted in alien team losing, and the category that they fall under is not "imbalance", it's "human error". AKA fucking up AKA outclassed AKA outgunned AKA not good enough AKAnotu. If "that human" has killed every single one of your teammates, your teammates fucked up. By the time they get an MD you should have a mara or a goon. If you didn't, it's because you sucked. Not because rifle vs dretch is imba. The same goes for humans. If you don't have shotguns by goon, you sucked. No, it's not about oneshotting, it's about killing potential. You'll find that the MD's is minimal, and the goon's is high. Yes, it is unfortunate when you are the player meant to carry your team, but your teammates contribute too much to helping the enemy so you get into a situation where you get outgunned, but that is not "imbalance". That is "your team sucks". Quit trying to blame shitty playing on imbalance.


I have been one shotted by a goon more than an MD or shotty. Also, stop bitching about 2 shot basis or one second of fire if you argument is supposedly about one shot imbalance. Either bitch about one shot imbalance or bitch about high damage output weapons, but not both. You're confusing your arguments and weakening them. "Oh, oneshots are imba, and the evidence I'm going to use for this is 2shot basis." That's bullshit.

No, I'm not forgetting that humans have range. Are you forgetting that, when playing aliens, the goal is to stay out of sight until you can bite them?

Also, you're assuming that "different" is inherently bad. Yes, humans and aliens have different hitboxes. Yes, that could lend itself to imbalance. Does it? No. Much of your argument is based on playing classes poorly. Dretches should not rush down halls at anything. Basilisks should not be seen. The marauder is the first pure offense class after the dretch, and even then it's more powerful as a base race weapon. Goons are an extremely potent oneshot weapon. I'd say they're more effective than the MD, because as you've said the MD can oneshot only one class (weapon), whereas the goon has the potential to one shot any weapon the human has.

If you join an in-progress game, you're at a disadvantage. That's what i said. If you join an in-progress game, you can't expect balance to be had. You're outgunned. Also, if you suck, you can't expect balance to be had. You're outskilled.

To end: you're aware that certain tactical decisions (pushing up a hall as opposed to an open space) lend themselves to certain teams, right? And that certain tactical decisions are better than others? That an MD will have a hay day in arachnid halls but not in the tighter areas? That not every situation is good for every weapon or alien? If you play your alien or weapon right, you'll learn that just because the human has the potential to one-shot doesn't mean he will. The MD can oneshot only one alien, and the luci can oneshot only when given time. You're bitching about two weapons being OP because A) you confront them in situations that aren't favorable to you, or B) your opponent is lucky and kills you in a situation that should be favorable to you. Both of those things happen in every game (and real life). They are facts that you need to get used to. Learn the game, and play to the strengths of your class - oneshots won't matter.

fist statement is laughable.  you DO realise that the humans are basically just reskinned q3 weapons for the most part..... right?  you do see that little console message now in again telling you you might have "built ioquake3 with a buggy compiler"... right?  how is trem different than vanilla q3?  you have to charge the rocket launcher.  the plasma rifle does not have splash. you can only zoom with the railgun.  you have to reload most things.  you get a flamethrower instead of a grenade launcher.  buildables.  armor does not decrease.  aliens have a wide range of HP.... but no armor.  wallwalk.  location based damage.  oh, a dodge button.  i think that's about it.  the weapons are for the most part the same. 

but let's not get any further distracted from the issue of my main post, one hit kills.  brings me to your second textblock.  perhaps you've never played a game where most of the human team camps.  perhaps you do not know how many maps have a hallway too long for "human sense" to work, but definitely not too long for bullets.  never ever turned a corner into instant death.  and i do mean instant.  as for goons, isnt buying a good roughly equal to buying a chaingun and larmor?  so would it not expect goon to have more "killing potential" than a MD, which should be equal to mara, right?

i was throwing those numbers as a reference.  i think 2 shot kills on basi is good.  how it should be for dretch.  i wouldent mind those 2-shots getting bumped up to three for adv though.  you are confusing my argument, as you keep flying further and further afield of the subject.

so what is it? dretches should never run down the hallway, or dretches are "the first attack class, then mara"?  how do i accomplish my "goal of not being seen" when the humans are s2+ and all have radar that's actually a little better than mine?  on a side note, you severely underestimate friend basi. basi can be a terror prior to s3, and even against a goodly number of s2 gear configs.

funny you should bring up arachnid.  that's a well designed map, in that everywhere has about three ways in and out, if not more.  much easier to flank campers than say, at the elbow bend to the alien's front at karath, or the long hall at nievius.  or all of drift.  yea, i mangled the map names.

different is not bad.... if they are comparable.  basically, i'm looking for the same end result with the same expenditure of credits and evos. this is why i think tyrant vs lucisuit is balanced. luci can kill crowds of clustered dretches, tyrant can kill crowds of clustered nakeds.  bsuit can take a couple direct hits from a tyrant, tyrant can take a couple of direct hits from a luci.

and your big long post had next to nothing to do with why you think oneshots are a vital gameplay element that should be preserved.  again, for a third time, i say that they are bad game design and unfun.  perhaps it works in other engines, but not q3.  they separated the instagib servers into a different gametype for a reason.

nux - i'll save space and only respond to what is relevant, without quotes.

tell me, how would you have handled what was happening that morning in nivius, where you were camping our eggs (and was most of the way there to do it by the time i even loaded ingame)>  i'd be interested to know, especially as i, sadly, was the best player on the alien team.  spawning as a dretch only to instantly be MD'ed is no fun, and there is no way around it that i could see from our time together there.  my teammates did nothing but feed harder than me, i at least could get to cover once in a while.

about dretch and bsuit.  the dretch can harrass, but i doubt he'll make the kill.  more than likely the suit will pop medkit and run back to base.  irritating, i suppose.  less so than waiting in a spawn queue and providing free creds.

the aliens cannot "gang up" in a manner similar to the SG-MD team i described.  as SG and MD are two of the 1HKO weapons i'm complaining about, you'd need two goons or two tyrants.  in general practice, big aliens like that make teamkills trying to do such a "gang up"  this is also why friend basi gets teamkilled so much.  yes humans can teamkill each other, it is easier, for me mind you,  to miss my partner when he is across the room from me, and not colliding with me in my face rushing to get the kill.

short bursts of movement are all that count.  steady speeds are easy to aim at.  a short burst of speed can also put you outside of the range of something with a lower but more consistent max speed... and a melee only restriction.  health and stamina are rarely an issue.

kill the egg anyway, man.take the death to give the illusion of a chance... it's more fun for the other side that way, especially when you have the entire team dead to rights, single handledly.  i get the idea - you aim like a machine with the mass driver.  noo need to rub my face all into it =D

meisseli, i do believe the point was in the half of the post you didnt read, specifically the quote i quoted to you.  i dont particularly like ANY oneshots, not even the few possible with the alien team.  i am more ok with tyrant and direct luci hits oneshotting fresh spawns.  i think luci splash needs to be toned down some, and have its area match it's visible effect.  what i consider even more unbalanced than oneshots in general is that humans can buy larmor and a helmet and be immune to them, while aliens must evolve into a tyrant for the same protection.  and this is discounting all of the weapons that kill in less than a second, but more than one shot.  that is the short version of the thread with all the proprietary, confusing, bullshit cut out.  got that?  RAK does not like oneshots.  period.

[Nux]

tell me, how would you have handled what was happening that morning in nivius, where you were camping our eggs (and was most of the way there to do it by the time i even loaded ingame)>  i'd be interested to know, especially as i, sadly, was the best player on the alien team.  spawning as a dretch only to instantly be MD'ed is no fun, and there is no way around it that i could see from our time together there.  my teammates did nothing but feed harder than me, i at least could get to cover once in a while.

I would make a good guess and say I'd enjoy the challenge like I normally do when I'm playing tremulous and be happy to see a skilled human team in a public game. Of course I might get a little frustrated, though not at the game itself but at my own ability/inability. If my team does thier best then I don't mind them being less than good, I'll only get frustrated at them if I see something blatantly stupid/dickish.

I would be interested to know when this game was so I can have a look at the demo, and see what you mean.

Finally, I wouldn't say bursts of movement is all that counts. Between fights, it's very useful and important that the aliens are able to cross the entire map in such a short time compared to humans, which gives the decision on how to engage an enemy in the hands of the aliens a lot of the time (if they actually take advantage of it). When actually in combat, sure bursts count more but I wouldn't say the humans have the aliens beat there either.

[Meisseli]

There's only one one-hit kill weapon for the humans, the lucifer. You are wrong about needing a tyrant to survive it, marauder with the agility and walljumping is very much enough. You need to be quite a skilled lucifer wielder to be able to hit a well-moving marauder. Also, it is very rare for a lucifer cannon to one-shot a goon+, since you need pretty much a perfect timing, lucifer's max damage being 255. It in general doesn't happen. That being said, dretches are the bane of lucifers, just stay on ceilings and try to attack from walls and you will survive very well, usually being able to both poison and get 2-3 hits in.

If you really think aliens can't "gang up", watch any scrim and you'll see that it is very much possible with every class available. It tends to happen quite often in public games as well. I at least constantly get dretch-stormed on the official servers, or have to try to survive 2-3 goons/marauders/basilisks at once. (You can skip 17 minutes of basically nothing in the demo with a demo.cfg.)