Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread

[/dev/humancontroller]

and looking through them, again i see nothing that refutes the fact that your example was wrong, or using terminology wrong.

you dumbass. does it at least occur to you that you have no idea what continuous function really means?
i did not use any common terminology except real number, and greater than. i then defined own term (that has nothing to do with series, functions, or continuity), and used it (correctly) to deduce some "surprizing" consequences.

i am right and was correctly using my example.

WRONG.

[danmal]

I'm almost positive I've already replied to your concerns about balance. No changes to balance are currently planned. In the future large changes to gameplay will happen. Do you have any other questions?

you did?  if so, your explanation was so spectacularly unsatisfactory as to have eluded my memory completely.

no further changes, huh?  so, crippled punce and trample, and crazy human buffs.  yea, fuck that.

I'm not sure why you think humans are OP compared to aliens. Aliens got some really strong stage 2 buffs in the form of weaker turrets + S2 goons. If anything I think aliens are too strong at the moment. In fact I'm surprised that you're angry about some minor game balance issues when there's eventually going to be some pretty major gameplay changes coming up (which no doubt most people will hate; at least initially).

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

and looking through them, again i see nothing that refutes the fact that your example was wrong, or using terminology wrong.

you dumbass. does it at least occur to you that you have no idea what continuous function really means?
i did not use any common terminology except real number, and greater than. i then defined own term (that has nothing to do with series, functions, or continuity), and used it (correctly) to deduce some "surprizing" consequences.

i am right and was correctly using my example.

WRONG.

you're right, at the time, i did not know what a continuous function was, nor did i remember what real numbers were, as its been a decade or more since i used them last.  then i skimmed that article (that i got to by searching "real number intuitively small").

you, however, might want to actually read those articles you linked, as i mentioned last time, they support my position, and make you look like you dont know what the hell you are talking about.  especially considering you claim that your term encompassed none of "series, functions, or continuity".  if you look up "real number" you'd know that a real number is all of those things.

sorry that your made-up definition is actually something of a real term.  here, since we're on an example kick, i'll give you another one of what you just did.  you metaphorically handed me a wheel of cheese, and insisted that it was a birthday cake.

or how about this one?  i know i am combining the ingredients of gunpowder, but that is not what i am making, i am making "spark dust".  despite the fact that it is made link gunpowder, and acts as gunpowder, it is really spark dust and is in no way related to gunpowder.

good thing this isnt a regulation troll-off or anything.  i'd have an almost unbeatable advantage by now if it were.

I'm almost positive I've already replied to your concerns about balance. No changes to balance are currently planned. In the future large changes to gameplay will happen. Do you have any other questions?

you did?  if so, your explanation was so spectacularly unsatisfactory as to have eluded my memory completely.

no further changes, huh?  so, crippled punce and trample, and crazy human buffs.  yea, fuck that.

I'm not sure why you think humans are OP compared to aliens. Aliens got some really strong stage 2 buffs in the form of weaker turrets + S2 goons. If anything I think aliens are too strong at the moment. In fact I'm surprised that you're angry about some minor game balance issues when there's eventually going to be some pretty major gameplay changes coming up (which no doubt most people will hate; at least initially).

1.2 humans are not OP compared to aliens.  they dont have infinisprint, for one.  nor do they have at least one update's worth of buffs in the changelog (alpha release was nothing but human buffs, only three alien changes were nerfs.)  youve also got the bullshit poison immunity after using a medkit as well, right?  wow, HUGE s2 nerf right there, yet you fail to remember it.

those three alien changes were more inline with making the A team into a 1.1 mirror of itself (as all three changes undo changes wrought by gpp, pounce, trample, basigrab).

weaker turrets do not interest me.  being weaker does not really diminish the effectiveness of sitting on top of one and camping with the now-more-deadly-weapons.  s2 goons are a nerf.  you nerfed pounce.  GPP has unnerfed s2 goon+.  so what is your advantage?  you are trying to entice me with a nerf i explicitly stated i hate?  you confuse me.

i am "upset" at these "minor game issues" because of the thought, or lack thereof, behind them.  you have done nothing but buff humans, and nothing but nerf aliens.  i could give a shit about any changes after that fact, at this point.  in order to move my "give a shit" gauge back out of the red zone, you'll have to buff aliens back up to gpp levels, then go and buff them more to equalize the bullshit you've given humans.

as ive said before, your development shows a very heavy bias toward the H team.  were i you, i would work on developing AI for the A team, as i dont see how anyone would want to play them at all, and you guys seem to want to play "duck hunt with dretches".

[/dev/humancontroller]

you, however, might want to actually read those articles you linked, as i mentioned last time, they support my position, and make you look like you dont know what the hell you are talking about.

WRONG. the articles do not support anyone directly. they do, however, support the fact that i created a valid, but retarded definition for demonstrative purposes, and used it correctly, and that you don't know what you are talking about.

especially considering you claim that your term encompassed none of "series, functions, or continuity".  if you look up "real number" you'd know that a real number is all of those things.

analysists define real numbers as a complete, totally ordered field. 294.57294 is a real number, e^{1234567891011121314} is a real number, √1337 is a real number, etc.. everyone uses real numbers in this form. set theorists, on the other hand, assume very little (with reason: does a complete, totally ordered field even exist? that's not trivial), and define real numbers as sets of sets (yo dawg), as they do with everything else, and prove properties about those sets. all of this irrelevant, because your ass is also defined as a set of sets.

sorry that your made-up definition is actually something of a real term.  here, since we're on an example kick, i'll give you another one of what you just did.  you metaphorically handed me a wheel of cheese, and insisted that it was a birthday cake.

or how about this one?  i know i am combining the ingredients of gunpowder, but that is not what i am making, i am making "spark dust".  despite the fact that it is made link gunpowder, and acts as gunpowder, it is really spark dust and is in no way related to gunpowder.

WRONG. give me a quote about someone defining intuitively small. even if you do manage to find one, that's irrelevant, because i defined something locally, superseding other local definition made by Johnny Anonymous in his paper about Stavier-Nokez equations.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

you, however, might want to actually read those articles you linked, as i mentioned last time, they support my position, and make you look like you dont know what the hell you are talking about.

WRONG. the articles do not support anyone directly. they do, however, support the fact that i created a valid, but retarded definition for demonstrative purposes, and used it correctly, and that you don't know what you are talking about.

especially considering you claim that your term encompassed none of "series, functions, or continuity".  if you look up "real number" you'd know that a real number is all of those things.

analysists define real numbers as a complete, totally ordered field. 294.57294 is a real number, e^{1234567891011121314} is a real number, √1337 is a real number, etc.. everyone uses real numbers in this form. set theorists, on the other hand, assume very little (with reason: does a complete, totally ordered field even exist? that's not trivial), and define real numbers as sets of sets (yo dawg), as they do with everything else, and prove properties about those sets. all of this irrelevant, because your ass is also defined as a set of sets.

sorry that your made-up definition is actually something of a real term.  here, since we're on an example kick, i'll give you another one of what you just did.  you metaphorically handed me a wheel of cheese, and insisted that it was a birthday cake.

or how about this one?  i know i am combining the ingredients of gunpowder, but that is not what i am making, i am making "spark dust".  despite the fact that it is made link gunpowder, and acts as gunpowder, it is really spark dust and is in no way related to gunpowder.

WRONG. give me a quote about someone defining intuitively small. even if you do manage to find one, that's irrelevant, because i defined something locally, superseding other local definition made by Johnny Anonymous in his paper about Stavier-Nokez equations.

lazy quote pyramid.

i think i see what the issue is here.  i may be literal minded, but you truly think like a machine.

the problem is that in spoken language, unlike a programming language, the local definition does not supersede the global definition.  if i defined a class as a function, locally, i'd have a hell of a time explaining to someone how to use a class.

In mathematics, a continuous function is a function for which, intuitively, "small" changes in the input result in "small" changes in the output.

In mathematics, a function[1] is a relation between a set of inputs and a set of potential outputs with the property that each input is related to exactly one output.

A series is, informally speaking, the sum of the terms of a sequence.

In mathematics, a sequence is an ordered list of objects (or events). Like a set, it contains members (also called elements or terms), and the number of terms (possibly infinite) is called the length of the sequence. Unlike a set, order matters, and exactly the same elements can appear multiple times at different positions in the sequence. A sequence is a discrete function.

In mathematics, a real number is a value that represents a quantity along a continuous line.

In mathematics, real is used as an adjective, meaning that the underlying field is the field of the real numbers (or the real field). For example real matrix, real polynomial and real Lie algebra. As a substantive, the term is used almost strictly in reference to the real numbers themselves (e.g., The "set of all reals").

The real number system (\mathbb R,+,\cdot,<) can be defined axiomatically up to an isomorphism, which is described below. There are also many ways to construct "the" real number system, for example, starting from natural numbers, then defining rational numbers algebraically, and finally defining real numbers as equivalence classes of their Cauchy sequences or as Dedekind cuts, which are certain subsets of rational numbers. Another possibility is to start from some rigorous axiomatization of Euclidean geometry (Hilbert, Tarski etc.) and then define the real number system geometrically. From the structuralist point of view all these constructions are on equal footing.

Let R denote the set of all real numbers. Then:

    The set R is a field, meaning that addition and multiplication are defined and have the usual properties.
    The field R is ordered, meaning that there is a total order ≥ such that, for all real numbers x, y and z:
        if x ≥ y then x + z ≥ y + z;
        if x ≥ 0 and y ≥ 0 then xy ≥ 0.
    The order is Dedekind-complete; that is, every non-empty subset S of R with an upper bound in R has a least upper bound (also called supremum) in R.

The last property is what differentiates the reals from the rationals. For example, the set of rationals with square less than 2 has a rational upper bound (e.g., 1.5) but no rational least upper bound, because the square root of 2 is not rational.

The real numbers are uniquely specified by the above properties. More precisely, given any two Dedekind-complete ordered fields R1 and R2, there exists a unique field isomorphism from R1 to R2, allowing us to think of them as essentially the same mathematical object.

i'm not 100% sure here, but i dont think you were using any term of your nonsense definition correctly.

therefore, you, good sir, are WRONG.

[/dev/humancontroller]

the problem is that in spoken language, unlike a programming language, the local definition does not supersede the global definition.

WRONG.

if i defined a class as a function, locally, i'd have a hell of a time explaining to someone how to use a class.

that is if you do not first explain your local terminology to him/her.

In mathematics, a continuous function is a function for which, intuitively, "small" changes in the input result in "small" changes in the output.

does anyone see, in the above statement, a definition for what it means for a real number to be intuitively small? does anyone even see a definition here?

In mathematics, a function[1] is a relation between a set of inputs and a set of potential outputs with the property that each input is related to exactly one output.

functions came nowhere near the topic before you brought them in. in fact, the only function i may have implicitly defined is a real-to-boolean function, answering the "is this number intuitively small?" question. ie.,
  f : ℝ -> Boolean
  f(x) = true if and only if x > 1000

A series is, informally speaking, the sum of the terms of a sequence.

no sums were used.

In mathematics, a sequence is an ordered list of objects (or events). Like a set, it contains members (also called elements or terms), and the number of terms (possibly infinite) is called the length of the sequence. Unlike a set, order matters, and exactly the same elements can appear multiple times at different positions in the sequence. A sequence is a discrete function.

i have not really used any sequences. in fact, the only sequence i may have implicitly defined is <1337,13371337,133713371337,...>, and that happened when i named a few example numbers (being 1337, 13371337, etc.) that are intuitively small.

In mathematics, a real number is a value that represents a quantity along a continuous line.

PROBLEM?

i'm not 100% sure here, but i dont think you were using any term of your nonsense definition correctly.

therefore, you, good sir, are WRONG.

WRONG.

[danmal]

1.2 humans are not OP compared to aliens.  they dont have infinisprint, for one.  nor do they have at least one update's worth of buffs in the changelog (alpha release was nothing but human buffs, only three alien changes were nerfs.)  youve also got the bullshit poison immunity after using a medkit as well, right?  wow, HUGE s2 nerf right there, yet you fail to remember it.

those three alien changes were more inline with making the A team into a 1.1 mirror of itself (as all three changes undo changes wrought by gpp, pounce, trample, basigrab).

weaker turrets do not interest me.  being weaker does not really diminish the effectiveness of sitting on top of one and camping with the now-more-deadly-weapons.  s2 goons are a nerf.  you nerfed pounce.  GPP has unnerfed s2 goon+.  so what is your advantage?  you are trying to entice me with a nerf i explicitly stated i hate?  you confuse me.

i am "upset" at these "minor game issues" because of the thought, or lack thereof, behind them.  you have done nothing but buff humans, and nothing but nerf aliens.  i could give a shit about any changes after that fact, at this point.  in order to move my "give a shit" gauge back out of the red zone, you'll have to buff aliens back up to gpp levels, then go and buff them more to equalize the bullshit you've given humans.

as ive said before, your development shows a very heavy bias toward the H team.  were i you, i would work on developing AI for the A team, as i dont see how anyone would want to play them at all, and you guys seem to want to play "duck hunt with dretches".

That's fine. Like I said I'm not really concerned with balance at the moment (maybe other members of the dev team are, I don't know). As far as I'm concerned the balance is good enough for public gameplay. If you're interested in making balance suggestions then I'd suggest you to make a post at our forums (as some dev members don't check here). If you'd prefer to not be involved then that's fine as well.

[SPK]

Wait I wanna play too.

WRONG.

Yeah, it's funny.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

devH/C, your strawman, for all intents and purposes, has become tiresome.

your ignorance of a phrase and its etymology does not make the proper usage of said phrase less proper and correct.

That's fine. Like I said I'm not really concerned with balance at the moment (maybe other members of the dev team are, I don't know). As far as I'm concerned the balance is good enough for public gameplay. If you're interested in making balance suggestions then I'd suggest you to make a post at our forums (as some dev members don't check here). If you'd prefer to not be involved then that's fine as well.

ah, i see.  unvanq is going to be a "good enough" project.  this explains a lot actually.  and here i thought you guys were actually striving for some sort of quality.  instead you're just making a bunch of arbitrary changes and calling it "good enough".

having played the alpha, i can tell you, gameplay != balanced.  i might be willing to try another build if balance changes are made.  i am not willing so long as i perceive a massive H bias.  or a 1.1 bias for that matter, as both forks are supposed to move the game forward, rather than backwards.  remember the turret debuff you brought up?  was not a turret buff a part of the GPP changes?  so again, you are not trying to make neo-1.1 how?

i remain steadfast in my resistance to joining your forum or contributing in any other way than making criticizing posts here.  i do not particularly care who reads these, or if my criticisms are taken to heart.  perhaps if you didnt use fugly alien models, and have massively H biased gameplay changes paired with a desire to recreate 1.1, i might be persuaded otherwise.

[/dev/humancontroller]

your ignorance of a phrase and its etymology does not make the proper usage of said phrase less proper and correct.

however, that also doesn't make the use of a phrase less retarded.
btw, i displayed no ignorance of the phrase, in fact, quite the opposite.

[Nux]

It seems pretty clear to me that:

• /dev/humancontroller had heard the 'intents and purposes' phrase before but only recently.
• He thought it was a newly trending saying, which it is not.
• He doesn't like the phrase, which he is free to do so.

What's less clear is whether he actually understood what RAKninja-Decepticon's use of the phrase was intended to mean¹. English has so many inconsistent and overloaded terms in it that questioning words themselves rather than the intended meaning behind them will easily lead to an infinite regress of questionable questions.

Also, the hypothetical that /dev/humancontroller provided didn't even benefit from using real numbers any more than it would have from simply using the natural numbers. RAKninja-Decepticon's complaints about the hypothetical show a poor understanding of the concepts involved. Sorry, but you can't skim a wikipedia page and expect to be an expert. Also, he seemed to have missed how /dev/humancontroller was redefining 'intuitively small' in a novel way, since if he understood this, he would know how pointless searching for the term is. The usage of 'intuitively' in the article is the standard usage and is nothing to do with /dev/humancontroller's usage of the word.

¹ For all intents and purposes does not literally mean "all" but instead most practical considerations.

[danmal]

ah, i see.  unvanq is going to be a "good enough" project.  this explains a lot actually.  and here i thought you guys were actually striving for some sort of quality.  instead you're just making a bunch of arbitrary changes and calling it "good enough".

No, game balance is not important at the moment. Most people seem to be fairly happy with balance and considering that large gameplay changes are planned it's fairly pointless. Once we get organised scrims and competitive gameplay then I'd support changes to game balance. No competitive game balances solely around public/low level matches and neither should Unvanquished. Major balance and gameplay issues need to be addressed in public games but that's about it.

having played the alpha, i can tell you, gameplay != balanced.  i might be willing to try another build if balance changes are made.  i am not willing so long as i perceive a massive H bias.  or a 1.1 bias for that matter, as both forks are supposed to move the game forward, rather than backwards.  remember the turret debuff you brought up?  was not a turret buff a part of the GPP changes?  so again, you are not trying to make neo-1.1 how?

Most people on the dev team will agree with me when I say 1.1 (and by extension GPP/current Unv) gameplay is fundamentally broken. Large changes need to be made if we're to make Unvanquished a fun game for most people.

i remain steadfast in my resistance to joining your forum or contributing in any other way than making criticizing posts here.  i do not particularly care who reads these, or if my criticisms are taken to heart.  perhaps if you didnt use fugly alien models, and have massively H biased gameplay changes paired with a desire to recreate 1.1, i might be persuaded otherwise.

Then I suggest you wait. While the next few releases probably won't change your mind hopefully we'll have a release that you will enjoy playing some time in the future.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

however, that also doesn't make the use of a phrase less retarded.
btw, i displayed no ignorance of the phrase, in fact, quite the opposite.

let me refine my wording.  until recently, you were ignorant of the phrase.



danmal:  more bad dev philosophy.  balancing for competitive play should be a mod.  the base game should be balanced for public play.  trace your project's heritage back to q3 and learn from that example. 

who will care about your future updates if what you have available now is displeasing?  and by this i mean to say the displeasure is not caused by things that can be excused for the alpha state of the release.

i seriously doubt your team is even capable of making something i would not actually actively dislike.  i come to this conclusion based on usage of stupid and hideously ugly art assets (the only art i care about, alien models); stupid, arbitrary, h biased, and neo-1.1 balance changes; and the overruling development philosophy your team has adopted.

the only thing i agree with is your sentiment that large changes are needed.  yes, they very well are needed.  unfortunatly, instead of addressing the core issues, your dev team is off spinning moonbeams piling more shit on top of the flawed gameplay.  fix the fundamental flaws first, then add in extra shit.

[danmal]

@RAKninja-Decepticon

It sounds like you've made up your mind. Like I said earlier you don't have to play the game or participate in development if you don't want to.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

@RAKninja-Decepticon

It sounds like you've made up your mind. Like I said earlier you don't have to play the game or participate in development if you don't want to.

you know what made my mind up?  the way your team made their mind up about art and balance changes.

[sirshiz]

stupid, arbitrary, h biased, and neo-1.1 balance changes

As far as I know, they've made chomping easier in Unvanquished. The repeat is faster isn't it?

Yes the pounce has changed to make it less powerful but it is obvious that if you rely mainly on pounces (and according to Tremstats you do: Dragoon's Pounce : 241 / Dragoon's Claw : 89) then you'll undoubtedly see the pounce changes to be a detriment to aliens. But if you are an experienced chomper you would see that this is really an improvement!

Also, you are arguing from an alien player's perspective only. You are not aware of the limitations humans have because of your inexperience with them. According to Tremstats you have played 66:27:48 but only 04:35:03 on humans. As an illustrative example, you are like a small-dicked man complaining that the vagina is too big.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

stupid, arbitrary, h biased, and neo-1.1 balance changes

As far as I know, they've made chomping easier in Unvanquished. The repeat is faster isn't it?

Yes the pounce has changed to make it less powerful but it is obvious that if you rely mainly on pounces (and according to Tremstats you do: Dragoon's Pounce : 241 / Dragoon's Claw : 89) then you'll undoubtedly see the pounce changes to be a detriment to aliens. But if you are an experienced chomper you would see that this is really an improvement!

Also, you are arguing from an alien player's perspective only. You are not aware of the limitations humans have because of your inexperience with them. According to Tremstats you have played 66:27:48 but only 04:35:03 on humans. As an illustrative example, you are like a small-dicked man complaining that the vagina is too big.

i do have more alien time than human (though i do have a lot more human time than that).  and i am arguing from only the alien perspective.  these facts have never been called into question because they should be self evident.  i do pounce more often.  as ive said directly about their change, pounce is movement, and hall clearing.  and movement while hall clearing.  the slower i move, the more likely i will get hit.  it would not matter if i was a mara-sized dretch that could oneshot any human, if i could only move 50 ups.  i would get shot the hell up by infini-sprinting humans with various buss to their weaponry.
 
the same applies to the goon.  i cannot charge a pounce and chomp at the same time.  this means to close any gap, i would have to wait for chomp's delay bullshit.  all the while, i'd be getting shot up, giant target that i am.  furthermore, when i finally do close the gap, i do reduced damage, knock the target back out of chomp range, and wait for pounce's delay bullshit.  all the while getting shot up, giant target that i am.  and dealing with infini-sprint.

so no, lowering the repeat on chomp does not make up for the damage done by nerfing pounce.  not with the way the h cards stack up.

and dont get me started on that bullshit poison immunity.  that is total horseshit.  not very often am i reduced to simple profanity, but in regards to this i am.  i mean seriously, what the fuck?

i am unswayed:

stupid, arbitrary, h biased, and neo-1.1 balance changes

[Celestial_Rage]

My initial offer to demonstrate balance instead of pointlessly arguing it still stands. I'll play you in GPP, which, it seems, in your opinion is more balanced, then in Unvanquished.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

My initial offer to demonstrate balance instead of pointlessly arguing it still stands. I'll play you in GPP, which, it seems, in your opinion is more balanced, then in Unvanquished.

how again will you demonstrate balance?  by making me play h and taking advantage of me not knowing/being in practice with all the movement tricks?  or by playing h yourself and demonstrating my own lack of patience or much regard for dieing?  yea, i suck fighting rants and goons as a human.  whoop-ti-doo.

i'll just play as normal in the small time i have a chance to play these days.

you are right about my opinion.  GPP, unbalanced as it is, is FAR less h biased than unvanq.  and furthermore, its models (in the alien department), ugly as they are, are less so than those in unvanq.

seriously, just spend some dev time making AI and remove the ability to play as aliens and make it a carebear co-op game about exterminating aliens.  or, alternately, spend some dev time unnerfing the aliens, and perhaps even giving them buffs for the utter bullshit you have heaped upon the humans.  and getting some models that are not ugly as sin.  you can keep the dretch, i guess, but everything else, especially the basi and goon, needs to go.  first time i saw either of those two, i knew "this shit will look stupid as fuck in motion", and i feel i was very very right on that call.

[Erwin Rommel]

you are right about my opinion.  GPP, unbalanced as it is, is FAR less h biased than unvanq.  and furthermore, its models (in the alien department), ugly as they are, are less so than those in unvanq.

I'm interested to see where you are drawling this assumption from.  The few games I played in UNVQ, aliens always won, with one exception.

It's true, pounce is only good for movement, but, chomp is borderline OP, so that more than makes up for that particular issue.  Honestly, I feel that the alien play style doesn't directly migrate from gpp to UNVQ.  Rather, as a goon in particular, you have to pounce much less, and chomp much more.

Maybe, instead of being so determined to hate a project that isn't custom made to fit your playstyle, you try expanding your horizons and play in a different way.  Or at least see that tremulous gameplay doesn't revolve around you and your own personal balance ideals.

[Celestial_Rage]

Not quite. Just because pounce was nerfed does not mean that it is no longer a viable attack. Pounce was only nerfed such that it takes 1 more hit to kill. eg, 3 pounces to kill a turret, 4 pounces to kill a larmor + helmet human.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

you are right about my opinion.  GPP, unbalanced as it is, is FAR less h biased than unvanq.  and furthermore, its models (in the alien department), ugly as they are, are less so than those in unvanq.

I'm interested to see where you are drawling this assumption from.  The few games I played in UNVQ, aliens always won, with one exception.

It's true, pounce is only good for movement, but, chomp is borderline OP, so that more than makes up for that particular issue.  Honestly, I feel that the alien play style doesn't directly migrate from gpp to UNVQ.  Rather, as a goon in particular, you have to pounce much less, and chomp much more.

Maybe, instead of being so determined to hate a project that isn't custom made to fit your playstyle, you try expanding your horizons and play in a different way.  Or at least see that tremulous gameplay doesn't revolve around you and your own personal balance ideals.

aliens always winning can be attributed to many things.  stax, humans who dont know how to play, bad builders, even lag.  especially when you have admittedly few statistics to base your opinion on.

you are right about the playstyle not migrating from GPP, as ive been typing, it is closer to 1.1.  pounce less, chomp more = overall slower goon = more quickle dead goon = nerfed goon.

i did try expanding my horizons.  it sucked.  therefor the torrent of feedback opinion.

and again i say i have no interest in being the nerfbat powered clay pigeon for a team of stupidly overbuffed humans.  that is not expanding my horizons, that is pure masochism.

Not quite. Just because pounce was nerfed does not mean that it is no longer a viable attack. Pounce was only nerfed such that it takes 1 more hit to kill. eg, 3 pounces to kill a turret, 4 pounces to kill a larmor + helmet human.

increasing TTK by a factor of one repeat.  which, combined with the overall faster TTK of humans (compared to gpp) equals massive goon, and therefore a-team nerf.  and again, slower goon equals deader goon.

combine with trample nerf, either basi swipe or grab range nerf (you had to nerf one to equalize them, unless you went by the highest number only, which from my experiences on unv i find highly improbable) and the poison nerf, and all off the buffs you jizzed onto the humans equals massive h bias.

you fail to mention any change in knockback.  so this nerbat pounce, it still pushed humans way out of chomp range, where they can stay forever due to infinisprint.

and bullshit poison immunity.  jesus christ.  do you just hate the A team so much that you wish to punish anyone who has no evos passed s2?  you should know how hard it is to come back from a game where you have feeders who get h to s3 right before a hits s2.  why do you practically eleminate the chance for such comebacks?

you.  need.  balance.  changes.  not stupid "hur hur hur, ima change this value for no reason" changes.  not "this was in 1.1 so it must be good" changes.  as a matter of fact, dont even attempt to change anything that you think will discourage camping.

make 1-5 small changes at a time, and observe the effect.  small changes.  dont heap a bunch of retarded garbage together and call it balance, as you have already done.

you do want to attract a playerbase, right?  or do you want to just have a fraction of GPPs population for the "lifetime" of your "game"?  if you want to be some nich thing, fine, you know no one will ever play your garbage.  if you actually want to be the "successor" and attract more players, you're going to have to realize that the way you are progressing is incredibly stupid.

these changes (pounce and trample, mainly) have been discussed to death, and yet you ignored all the discussion to do your own thing.  just like with almost every aspect of development i have observed thus far.  that's great, keep doing that.  just dont wonder why no one played your unbalanced shitware.

[CorSair]

This topic needs moar popcorn and cola

[Qrntz]

This topic needs moar popcorn and cola

And you didn't bring any?! I expected more from you, CorSair.

[E-Mxp]

What I find strange is that there is so much discussion about ballance while (as far as I know) there haven't been that many people on the unvanquished servers sinds the developers split up.
Even with the new alpha being released the servers are somewhat barren.

[/dev/humancontroller]

the developers split up

means: we basically jettisoned some fags who were hindering development.

there haven't been that many people on the unvanquished servers sinds the developers split up.
Even with the new alpha being released the servers are somewhat barren.

and? did you compare the current state to the one before the jettisoning?

[sirshiz]

i did try expanding my horizons.  it *I* sucked.  therefor the torrent of feedback opinion.

Sucking at chomping seems to be your problem. And it is quite natural to blame anything but yourself as a coping mechanism for your deficiency. Fortunately, however, there are many people that CAN chomp that disprove any of your wild assumptions!

These same people will however admit that pouncing (in GPP) can be overpowered while chomping is underpowered unless your aim is near perfect. This is the reason for Unvanquished's changes: to balance out the ridiculous (and perhaps unskilled) pounce-spam while simultaneously encouraging and REWARDING people that can aim well with chomp. YOU CANNOT AIM WELL WITH CHOMP, apparently, SO YOU SEE NO BENEFIT. I do not see why you think it is unfair to reward skill (aiming with chomp) and decrease the benefits of spamming.


Another quote by you:

"furthermore, when i finally do close the gap, i do reduced damage, knock the target back out of chomp range, and wait for pounce's delay bullshit. "

shows that you do not know how to use pounce except to pounce spam. You complain about knocking the target back out of chomp range but if you spectate enough good goon players you will see that they either:

• pounce small enough or at the right angle to barely knock the target out of range
• pounce the human against a wall/corner thereby negating the knockback
• pounce NEXT to the human (no contact = no knockback)... yes this gives up pounce damage but can be advantageous if you immediately follow up with chomps
• pounce to dodge/run away and sneak up behind humans to chomp

This is by no means a full list of ways to use pounce and chomp together successfully but maybe they will convince you that you are not using the goon to its full potential but rather in a way that many find is cheap (relying mainly on pounce spamming!) and not always effective. You may be able to get away with it in GPP but Unvanquished is trying to discourage this behavior.

I understand that you dislike Unvanquished for nerfing something you find effective but this illustrates a problem in YOUR PLAY-STYLE not necessarily Unvanquished's balance! Yes, UVQ will still need to be balanced and rebalanced and no it is not perfect nor will any game ever be perfect. But to say that   because YOU cannot excel at the game it is unbalanced    is egotistic.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

What I find strange is that there is so much discussion about ballance while (as far as I know) there haven't been that many people on the unvanquished servers sinds the developers split up.
Even with the new alpha being released the servers are somewhat barren.

if they would fix their balance and art, perhaps they wouldent be so barren.

i did try expanding my horizons.  it *I* sucked.  therefor the torrent of feedback opinion.

Sucking at chomping seems to be your problem. And it is quite natural to blame anything but yourself as a coping mechanism for your deficiency. Fortunately, however, there are many people that CAN chomp that disprove any of your wild assumptions!

These same people will however admit that pouncing (in GPP) can be overpowered while chomping is underpowered unless your aim is near perfect. This is the reason for Unvanquished's changes: to balance out the ridiculous (and perhaps unskilled) pounce-spam while simultaneously encouraging and REWARDING people that can aim well with chomp. YOU CANNOT AIM WELL WITH CHOMP, apparently, SO YOU SEE NO BENEFIT. I do not see why you think it is unfair to reward skill (aiming with chomp) and decrease the benefits of spamming.


Another quote by you:

"furthermore, when i finally do close the gap, i do reduced damage, knock the target back out of chomp range, and wait for pounce's delay bullshit. "

shows that you do not know how to use pounce except to pounce spam. You complain about knocking the target back out of chomp range but if you spectate enough good goon players you will see that they either:

• pounce small enough or at the right angle to barely knock the target out of range
• pounce the human against a wall/corner thereby negating the knockback
• pounce NEXT to the human (no contact = no knockback)... yes this gives up pounce damage but can be advantageous if you immediately follow up with chomps
• pounce to dodge/run away and sneak up behind humans to chomp

This is by no means a full list of ways to use pounce and chomp together successfully but maybe they will convince you that you are not using the goon to its full potential but rather in a way that many find is cheap (relying mainly on pounce spamming!) and not always effective. You may be able to get away with it in GPP but Unvanquished is trying to discourage this behavior.

I understand that you dislike Unvanquished for nerfing something you find effective but this illustrates a problem in YOUR PLAY-STYLE not necessarily Unvanquished's balance! Yes, UVQ will still need to be balanced and rebalanced and no it is not perfect nor will any game ever be perfect. But to say that   because YOU cannot excel at the game it is unbalanced    is egotistic.

strawman.  rather than address my opinion, you attempt to find fault with me, and then attack that.

who are these people you are citing?  give me names.

aiming with chomp means nothing in the context of this argument.  even with the best possible aim, it still sucks as an attack.  if anything, it shows the imbalance that exists between humans and aliens at a fundamental level.  humans gain damage reduction and benefit from location based damage (if your enemy cannot make a headshot, you get to live much longer than if he could).   aliens get to be bigger and slower targets, and a hit scored anywhere registers full damage.

so, on the logic that you use that if it takes more skill it must be rewarded, i suggest that aliens are now worth 1/2 the creds, and get 2x exos per kill.  because obviously it takes so much more skill to play aliens.

now to your bullshit list.

• does no damage even on GPP.  stupid idea.  perhaps viable against a solo human, but in that situation you will likely make the kill unless you really just suck.
• pouncespam.  yes, it works, but you now must make an extra pounce in unvanq.  longer ttk means deader goon.
• delay.  i take hits i would not have needed to if i could have just pounced.
• this is stupid.  this will only work on people who do not know how to play the game.  or in situations where it really doesent matter what you do, you'll be making kills.  like when everyone is distracted by rants, or before the humans have helmets.  not a viable replacement for an actual pounce

no, i am not using the goon to full potential.  mainly because the goon is not my favorite thing to be.  your reasoning shows me that unvanq does not want to have mobile aliens.  or even player aliens.  as they like heaping buffs onto H and nerf onto A and then claim "we'll fix it later" when less and less people care about their bullshit every day.

i should get a fucking medal for being able to muster up the care enough to even tell you shmucks what you are doing wrong.

if you want to ATTRACT PLAYERS  your BALANCE will have to somewhat cater to their PLAY STYLE.

and do not get it confused, it is not because i do not excel that i find this unbalanced.  it is because i find unvanq unbalanced that i do not care to even attempt to excel.

[Qrntz]

i should get a fucking medal for being able to muster up the care enough to even tell you shmucks what you are doing wrong.

motd
 
   

[Erwin Rommel]

if you want to APPEASE RAKNINJA your BALANCE will have to somewhat cater to his PLAY STYLE.

Fix'd for you.