Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

if you want to APPEASE RAKNINJA your BALANCE will have to somewhat cater to his PLAY STYLE.

Fix'd for you.

by the dev team's own admission, less and less people play unvanq every day.

i guess the best part of being me is that there is so many of me.

tell me, on your official forums, are there people complaining?  do you have more than say, 25 active users, even?

if the answer is no to one or both counts, perhaps you should pull your collective heads out of your asses.  instead of dismissing what i am saying, listen to me.

you fucks are forgetting something important.  you are not developing a game for people who like tremulous.  you are developing a new game that should appeal to people outside of tremulous.  if you only try to please those of use who are still playing gpp, that is the only "customer base" you can expect.  this means you need to make the game more accessible.  another way of saying this is "you need to make the game easier to pick up and learn".

this is not what you are doing.


in closing, look past the fact that i am shit-talking your baby.  it matters not if i am right or wrong, you are still losing population.  instead of being lazy cockmunches and claiming that you'll "fix it later"  why dont you try fixing it now?  you can do nothing but actually attract players by showing that you actually care.

but who am i fucking kidding, you dont.  all you care about is being involved in some project so that you can feel important, regardless on the fact that said project is doomed to stall and fail, mainly due to lack on interest caused by your shitty development philosophy.

i should get a fucking medal for being able to muster up the care enough to even tell you shmucks what you are doing wrong.

motd
 
   

stick around a while.  i'll give you enough material for a year.

[CorSair]

Is it just me or do we got some sort attention whore around here?


If you really want your concerns shown up, write a proper list of your aggravating problems or write PM to (known) Unv Developer, instead of yelling (if you call that), and stop naming people cockmunches. Even I have good discipline not to tell you to "go fuck yourself" or name you being a cuntbag (although it takes lot from hot-headed person to do so. And I already did, dangit.)  Also, jumping from assumption to assumption, is not healthy for discussion.

If you still say "whats the use when they don't even read", you just further reinforce your narcissistic shield. Good luck trying to get that off.

i guess the best part of being me is that there is so many of me.

You can really entertain people well, I admit.

Anyways, bring it on! I brought big load of popcorn and cola now, so others can nab on.


(note: I quit this whole Tremulous thing, I only come to forums to enjoy to watch the trainwreck. And maybe do comeback some time.)

[/dev/humancontroller]

do we got

have* (also grammatically correct: "do we get a..."; "did we get a..."; "we got a..."; "we have got a...".)

cockmunches

cockmunchers*
also, that's my word btw.

If you really want your concerns shown up, write a proper list of your aggravating problems or write PM to (known) Unv Developer, instead of yelling (if you call that), and stop naming people cockmunches.

or he can do both at once (write aggravating problems and call people cockmunchers), over a period of time (one problem, one discussion, then another problem, etc.).

Even I have good discipline not to tell you to "go fuck yourself" or name you being a cuntbag

such act of discipline is pure cocksuckage. you should free yourself.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

Is it just me or do we got some sort attention whore around here?


If you really want your concerns shown up, write a proper list of your aggravating problems or write PM to (known) Unv Developer, instead of yelling (if you call that), and stop naming people cockmunches. Even I have good discipline not to tell you to "go fuck yourself" or name you being a cuntbag (although it takes lot from hot-headed person to do so. And I already did, dangit.)  Also, jumping from assumption to assumption, is not healthy for discussion.

If you still say "whats the use when they don't even read", you just further reinforce your narcissistic shield. Good luck trying to get that off.

i guess the best part of being me is that there is so many of me.

You can really entertain people well, I admit.

Anyways, bring it on! I brought big load of popcorn and cola now, so others can nab on.


(note: I quit this whole Tremulous thing, I only come to forums to enjoy to watch the trainwreck. And maybe do comeback some time.)

the quickest way to get me to shut up is to stop responding to me.  so long as people respond to me, i shall reply in kind.  this is called conversation. 

i dont care if my concerns are addressed. all i care about is voicing them.  often.  and loudly.  it is a shame that i am reduced to explaining this to you, but that's kind of how i operate.  i suck you into a stupid argument that flies so far off the track it is three steps away from even being related to the topic at hand.

loophole alert:  i called no one a cockmunch, i merely claimed that a group of people were ACTING LIKE lazy cockmunches.  not quite the same thing.  for instance, i can act like a bird.  this does not make me a bird.

as for "they dont even read" - im pretty sure they do.  im just fairly certain they have no acceptable answers to my concerns.  they, sadly, think that they know better, and are dooming themselves to stagnation.

if either project lasts the rest of the year, i will be amazed. 

it was a fun dream while it lasted, that we could continue to advance tremulous through computer science.

and yes, i am entertaining.  myself far more than any of you, really.  shit, you think i'd do this shit if i didnt gain something from it?

[danmal]

What I find strange is that there is so much discussion about ballance while (as far as I know) there haven't been that many people on the unvanquished servers sinds the developers split up.
Even with the new alpha being released the servers are somewhat barren.

I agree. There's little point discussing balance changes simply because
1) Major gameplay changes (not balance related!) will eventually be implemented.
2) We lack the necessary data to make an informed decision. We need more players before we can make more balance changes.

The only thing I've picked up so far in this discussion is that pounce knock back is bad in most situations and might be worthwhile removing.

[/dev/humancontroller]

We lack the necessary data to make an informed decision.

and that shows your method of balance design: pure trial and error.

We need more players before we can make more balance changes.

what you'll get is a bunch of n00bs, who will see one set of balance changes balanced. then, armed with "necessary data", that set of balance changes will be applied, and the game will a product for n00bs. professional players will still see the game as an utter piece of shit.

[danmal]

and that shows your method of balance design: pure trial and error.

No, information about how people play a game allows us to make an informed decision about what needs changing. If a certain item is not bought often (eg flamer 1.1) then that suggests that there are issues with that item. If we have a lot of players complaining about a certain game element being cheap/OP/UP/unfun (unfun is the opposite of fun. It actually removes 'fun' from the game) then we may have to rethink that game element. I am not saying that we should look at a graph and say "humans only win 45% of the time. Lets reduce cost of lasgun". Data about how people and what they enjoy doing allows us to properly balance and design a game. You can not theory craft balance for a complex game.

I would like to state very clearly that data only informs it does not make decisions. Decisions are what developers do. With more data developers can make better decisions. Without any data then it's extremely hard to make good decisions. It's quite easy to make a lot of guesses however.

We need more players before we can make more balance changes.

what you'll get is a bunch of n00bs, who will see one set of balance changes balanced. then, armed with "necessary data", that set of balance changes will be applied, and the game will a product for n00bs. professional players will still see the game as an utter piece of shit.

I think you're twisting my words here. At no point did I say that we should balance around public games or that public games should even be our main focus when balancing. High level organised games are the most important games to balance for. They're the people who care about balance the most and their games are where balance makes the most difference. There is a difference between the goals and rewards a player experiences when playing competitively compared to playing casually. These goals are however not mutually exclusive and often overlap. Before we can start making those balance changes however we need regular scrims and we need more players. We can't balance for competitive players if there are none.

[/dev/humancontroller]

and that shows your method of balance design: pure trial and error.

No, information about how people play a game allows us to make an informed decision about what needs changing. If a certain item is not bought often (eg flamer 1.1) then that suggests that there are issues with that item. If we have a lot of players complaining about a certain game element being cheap/OP/UP/unfun (unfun is the opposite of fun. It actually removes 'fun' from the game) then we may have to rethink that game element. I am not saying that we should look at a graph and say "humans only win 45% of the time. Lets reduce cost of lasgun". Data about how people and what they enjoy doing allows us to properly balance and design a game.

in other words, trial and error.

You can not theory craft balance for a complex game.

however, your stance towards being able to roughly theory-craft the balance of a complex game disgusts me.

We need more players before we can make more balance changes.

what you'll get is a bunch of n00bs, who will see one set of balance changes balanced. then, armed with "necessary data", that set of balance changes will be applied, and the game will a product for n00bs. professional players will still see the game as an utter piece of shit.

At no point did I say that we should balance around public games or that public games should even be our main focus when balancing. High level organised games are the most important games to balance for. They're the people who care about balance the most and their games are where balance makes the most difference.

yet there are not even enough players to do testing, let alone high-level games. out of a simple "wait-for-more-players campaign", the first players that you'll get will be n00bs. it will be some time before you have a broad selection of players.

Before we can start making those balance changes however we need regular scrims and we need more players. We can't balance for competitive players if there are none.

which is almost exactly what i'm saying.

[danmal]

in other words, trial and error.

What I described was not trial and error. To put it simply what I said was that data would allow us to identify flaws or issues with the game. We will of course be monitoring and correcting any balance changes we make. To call this 'pure trial and error' is, intentionally or not, misleading.

You can not theory craft balance for a complex game.

however, your stance towards being able to roughly theory-craft the balance of a complex game disgusts me.

What exactly do you think my stance is and why does it disgust you? I can not have a discussion with you if you simply make statements and do not try to explain your reasoning.

yet there are not even enough players to do testing, let alone high-level games. out of a simple "wait-for-more-players campaign", the first players that you'll get will be n00bs. it will be some time before you have a broad selection of players.

We can wait. There is no need to engage in high levels of balancing early on. It's quite possible to simply work on gameplay, ensuring that the game is fun to play, early on and later when there is actual competitive matches to begin proper balancing. There will of course need to be some balancing done but this can mainly be targeted at major issues. There is no need for fine balancing at the early stages of a game's development. Good balance easier to achieve then good gameplay after all.

Before we can start making those balance changes however we need regular scrims and we need more players. We can't balance for competitive players if there are none.

which is almost exactly what i'm saying.

No, you haven't actually explained your position regarding game balance/game design. I would be very interested in it however.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

god, you both are ass-backwards.  you design the base game around public play, and release a competitively balanced mod.  you WANT to attract newbies.  you want them to learn your game, and then enter the competitive scene.  if you havent seen the state of the tremulous community, there are precious few "professional" players.  you need new players.

The only thing I've picked up so far in this discussion is that pounce knock back is bad in most situations and might be worthwhile removing.

interesting idea, a baby step to rectifying the horrible damage done to the goon.  now, to make up for the rest, nerf pounce all the way down, remove all knockback, remove chomp delay from pounce, allow chomps while charging pounce, and amp up chomp damage so that a goon+ oneshots a human with a helmet.

or, just put pounce back to the way it was.



and unnerf trample.  nerf it again when you remove human movement exploits that avoid trample damage.

remove poison immunity after medkit use.  this nerf makes my horseshitometer explode.  it is just too much horse shit. it's just stupid.  i mean, fuck.  what the hell?  shit.

in closing, you say you cannot balance without players....  again i postulate that you lack players because you lack balance.

[/dev/humancontroller]

in other words, trial and error.

What I described was not trial and error. To put it simply what I said was that data would allow us to identify flaws or issues with the game. We will of course be monitoring and correcting any balance changes we make. To call this 'pure trial and error' is, intentionally or not, misleading.

point out the differences between what you perceive as "trial and error" and "making balance changes, testing them, and correcting any (or just some) detected flaws/errors".

You can not theory craft balance for a complex game.

however, your stance towards being able to roughly theory-craft the balance of a complex game disgusts me.

What exactly do you think my stance is and why does it disgust you? I can not have a discussion with you if you simply make statements and do not try to explain your reasoning.

your disgusting stance is that you do not believe that balance can be roughly crafted in theory. (i have just repeated myself.) but it's actually just that some players see the bullshit in some of the balance changes, just by hearing about them.

yet there are not even enough players to do testing, let alone high-level games. out of a simple "wait-for-more-players campaign", the first players that you'll get will be n00bs. it will be some time before you have a broad selection of players.

We can wait. There is no need to engage in high levels of balancing early on. It's quite possible to simply work on gameplay, ensuring that the game is fun to play, early on and later when there is actual competitive matches to begin proper balancing. There will of course need to be some balancing done but this can mainly be targeted at major issues. There is no need for fine balancing at the early stages of a game's development.

as a result, trial and error (or whatever you call your process of achieving balance) will only come S00N(TM). (and until then, little can be done in that regard.) do you believe that said S00N(TM) will come in time (ie., whether the "final stages" of the game development will ever exist in practice)?

Good balance easier to achieve then good gameplay after all.

that's arguable. do you have any idea on how the "properness" of balance affects fun?

Before we can start making those balance changes however we need regular scrims and we need more players. We can't balance for competitive players if there are none.

which is almost exactly what i'm saying.

No, you haven't actually explained your position regarding game balance/game design. I would be very interested in it however.

no noes.
also, as for the irrelevant sub-sub-topic that you've brought up: if by "position" you mean work (as a designer), then i do not have any such position in TremZ/Unvanquished.

god, you both are ass-backwards.

on the other hand, you are ass-forward, assface !

[danmal]

point out the differences between what you perceive as "trial and error" and "making balance changes, testing them, and correcting any (or just some) detected flaws/errors".

'Pure trial and error' is simply making changes without knowing the likely results of that action. What I proposed was the use of theory to guide decisions. Yes, game design has elements of trial and error however it is not and should not be 'pure trial and error'. I have never said that my proposed method did not contain trial and error methodologies however describing an object which contains many elements as only being one particular element is misleading.

What exactly do you think my stance is and why does it disgust you? I can not have a discussion with you if you simply make statements and do not try to explain your reasoning.

your disgusting stance is that you do not believe that balance can be roughly crafted in theory. (i have just repeated myself.) but it's actually just that some players see the bullshit in some of the balance changes, just by hearing about them.

You've just clarified your position! While it's certainly possible to some extent to roughly theory craft balance for a complex game ( eg you wouldn't give a dretch 200 health) it becomes pretty much impossible as the game gets closer to achieving a high level of balance. I shouldn't have said balance as it is ambiguous.I should have instead said a 'high level of balance'.

as a result, trial and error (or whatever you call your process of achieving balance) will only come S00N(TM). (and until then, little can be done in that regard.) do you believe that said S00N(TM) will come in time (ie., whether the "final stages" of the game development will ever exist in practice)?

I believe that it will occur as gameplay becomes finalised and competitive play emerges. I am not advocating for no gameplay design at all. I am instead advocating that gameplay design instead of balance be our primary concern.

Good balance easier to achieve then good gameplay after all.

that's arguable. do you have any idea on how the "properness" of balance affects fun?

That's a good point and I agree that when balance starts to remove choice then that's a problem. However I don't believe that our current level of balance causes significant issues. There are far more pressing issues (camping, feeding, levels, menus, viable choices in weapons/aliens, etc) then balance at the moment.

also, as for the irrelevant sub-sub-topic that you've brought up: if by "position" you mean work (as a designer), then i do not have any such position in TremZ/Unvanquished.

I meant position as in what is your opinion?

[/dev/humancontroller]

What I proposed was the use of theory to guide decisions.

ie., advised trial and error.

There are far more pressing issues (camping, feeding, levels, menus, viable choices in weapons/aliens, etc) then balance at the moment.

and what is your stance towards being able to craft fixes for these issues in theory?

PS: fix the quoting in your last post.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

on the other hand, you are ass-forward, assface !

of course i am.

that does not diminish the truths i have revealed to you.

your disgusting stance is that you do not believe that balance can be roughly crafted in theory. (i have just repeated myself.) but it's actually just that some players see the bullshit in some of the balance changes, just by hearing about them.

i cant help but quote this.  i read that as basically "some people have heard about the poison immunity..."

if there is anything unvanquished can be said to have done, it is to force me to forever associate the word "bullshit"  with "poison immunity"

and danmal, you've never answered...  i was not rhetorically asking.  i really want to know what you guys were thinking.  i mean, did the whole dev team have a "meet-up-and-smoke-as-much-crack-as-you-can" party or something?  if you do nothing else for me, find out what they were thinking.  i always wondered what it must be like to be a raving lunatic, so if you could please share some insight, i would be grateful. 

it should show you something that i can talk about pounce till im blue in the face, but poison immunity gets me to sputtering and making incoherent noises.

i mean, SHIT.  i find it very hard not to be insulting in reference to this particular bullet on the changelog.  i cannot see how anyone, even a habitual human player, would think that this is a good idea, and is what needed to happen.  did you guys happen to make ultra random virus lead dev when i wasent looking or something?


furthermore, danmal, if changing tha balance is not important as gameplay itself is getting a major overhaul "soon", why in heaven's holy fuck did you guys dick around with the balance in the first place?  just to have shit on the changelog?  i mean fuck, why even waste time with that bullshit?  do you guys even have a written plan of action, or are you making up bullshit as you go along, because it sure as heel looks to be the case.


please, enlighten me.  perhaps the answer is really obvious, i just cannot see it.  somehow i doubt this is the case.

[/dev/humancontroller]

the truths i have revealed to you.

that you have no idea what a real number is.

it is to force me to forever associate the word "bullshit"  with "poison immunity"

/buy bullshit
/itemact bullshit

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

the truths i have revealed to you.

that you have no idea what a real number is.

let me rephrase, "...arguments against strawmen aside, the truths i have revealed to you...."

it is to force me to forever associate the word "bullshit"  with "poison immunity"

/buy bullshit
/itemact bullshit

how to buy medkit?

[/dev/humancontroller]

arguments against strawmen aside, the truths i have revealed to you

ie.?

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

arguments against strawmen aside, the truths i have revealed to you

ie.?

see every "on topic" post of mine this thread.

[/dev/humancontroller]

arguments against strawmen aside, the truths i have revealed to you

ie.?

see every "on topic" post of mine this thread.

ie., that you have no idea what a real number is.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

arguments against strawmen aside, the truths i have revealed to you

ie.?

see every "on topic" post of mine this thread.

ie., that you have no idea what a real number is.

real number bullshit == your strawman.

dont tell me that you are incapable of reviewing the thread and ignoring the side discussion.

it would take far less time than me summarizing.

as time is a commodity i have very little of these days, i shall leave you to your review.

[/dev/humancontroller]

real number bullshit == your strawman.

dont tell me that you are incapable of reviewing the thread and ignoring the side discussion.

it would take far less time than me summarizing.

as time is a commodity i have very little of these days, i shall leave you to your review.

that this thread contains important facts revealed to me (other than the fact that you don't know what a real number is) == your bullshit.

this thread contains full proof that you have a monkey wrench embedded in your asshole. however, as time is a commodity i have very little of these days, i shall leave you find the proof.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

real number bullshit == your strawman.

dont tell me that you are incapable of reviewing the thread and ignoring the side discussion.

it would take far less time than me summarizing.

as time is a commodity i have very little of these days, i shall leave you to your review.

that this thread contains important facts revealed to me (other than the fact that you don't know what a real number is) == your bullshit.

this thread contains full proof that you have a monkey wrench embedded in your asshole. however, as time is a commodity i have very little of these days, i shall leave you find the proof.

ah, peer dismissal.  dismally common on the internet.  do you use a random number generator system to decide on which fallacy you will craft your response from each post?

in retrospect, it makes no difference if you understand my message or not.  you are not involved in the development of either project, correct?

it has been fun despite your reliance on "bad debate".  it is easy to look past that as i have never encountered anybody who fulfills the archetype of "snobbish programmer" so well.  it is truly a spectacle to behold.

[/dev/humancontroller]

real number bullshit == your strawman.

dont tell me that you are incapable of reviewing the thread and ignoring the side discussion.

it would take far less time than me summarizing.

as time is a commodity i have very little of these days, i shall leave you to your review.

that this thread contains important facts revealed to me (other than the fact that you don't know what a real number is) == your bullshit.

this thread contains full proof that you have a monkey wrench embedded in your asshole. however, as time is a commodity i have very little of these days, i shall leave you find the proof.

ah, peer dismissal.

no, rethoric.

you are not involved in the development of either project, correct?

WRONG.

it has been fun despite your reliance on "bad debate".  it is easy to look past that as i have never encountered anybody who fulfills the archetype of "snobbish programmer" so well.  it is truly a spectacle to behold.

i have no idea what you've just said, but it sounds retarded.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

you are not involved in the development of either project, correct?

WRONG.

also, as for the irrelevant sub-sub-topic that you've brought up: if by "position" you mean work (as a designer), then i do not have any such position in TremZ/Unvanquished

forgot your machine logic.  i assumed you would understand that as the brunt of the discussion has been balance, you'd infer the clause "as a designer" into "not involved in either project."

why should i care if a mapper or modeler do not agree with or even understand my complaints?  they do not make the decisions in the area that matters to me.

well, maybe the modeler, if he's going to replace those godaweful alien models they are using.

[danmal]

ie., advised trial and error.

Yes, 'pure trial and error' implies something quite different however.

There are far more pressing issues (camping, feeding, levels, menus, viable choices in weapons/aliens, etc) then balance at the moment.

and what is your stance towards being able to craft fixes for these issues in theory?

There's a lot more theory in game design but there's still iterative design/feedback/guided trial and error. The advantage that we have now is that gameplay between Unvanquished and GPP/1.1 is pretty much the same. The major issues are still there and we have a lot of experience with those issues (years for some players). They're also apparent to new players as well. It only takes a few games to realise that camping isn't fun or that dying is extremely punishing. We don't need competitive players to solve most of these issues.

[/dev/humancontroller]

It only takes a few games to realise that camping isn't fun

it only takes 1 d00d to find a big pile of bullshit in the game, and that pile apparently isn't moving any time S00N(TM).

We don't need competitive players to solve most of these issues.

in fact, you don't need many players at all, just proper thinking design-wise.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

It only takes a few games to realise that camping isn't fun or that dying is extremely punishing.

why medkit poison immunity?

that encourages you to stay near a medistation at all times.  that means camping.

that means dretches will die a lot more.  that is death that is punishing.

nerf pounce buff chomp means more corner/door camping goons.

why unvanq design game against their own development philosophy???

again, why change anything at all when "big gameplay changes are coming soon that will funlily these changes and require a whole lot of balance changes on their own"?

[Asvarox]

why medkit poison immunity?

that encourages you to stay near a medistation at all times.  that means camping.

Huh? How on Earth boosting "mobile healing means" encourage people to use more "stationary healing means"?

nerf pounce buff chomp means more corner/door camping goons.

There's already corner camping going on, along with pounce spam which is f***ing annoying. Also, with dodge (even one per 5 sec or so) corner camping is not as effective as it used to be.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

why medkit poison immunity?

that encourages you to stay near a medistation at all times.  that means camping.

Huh? How on Earth boosting "mobile healing means" encourage people to use more "stationary healing means"?

nerf pounce buff chomp means more corner/door camping goons.

There's already corner camping going on, along with pounce spam which is f***ing annoying. Also, with dodge (even one per 5 sec or so) corner camping is not as effective as it used to be.

1.  i get bitten.  i pop a medkit.  i run back to base to get another.

2. the fact that there is already is camping does nothing to invalidate the statement that the change encourages camping.

your opinion of pounce has no bearing on this subject.  you disliking pounce spam does not equate to nerfing pounce discouraging camping.

the effectiveness of cornercamping is not under question.  the fact is that the change encourages it more.


furthermore, you cherrypicked your quote.

what about punishing dretches?  why change anything at all?

[Asvarox]

1. That's exactly what people are doing already, if anything, with poison immunity there would probably be not-as-much of a need to retreat after using the medkit.

furthermore, you cherrypicked your quote.

Not really. Your post
"medkit poison immunity" => "encourages you to stay near a medistation at all times." => "camping." => "dretches will die a lot more"
Since the second one makes no sense and in my humble opinion is false WRONG then the third one is also false which makes fourth one false as well.

2. You said that "nerf pounce buff chomp" => "more camping". Actually, there would be just as much camping. Also, compared to 1.1, it's not as big issue. Goon changes, as I understand them, were not meant to "fix" anything in that matter - they were meant to stop the pounce spam (which IS a big issue) and encourage to use chomp more. I think it's a good thing.