Author Topic: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread  (Read 67785 times)

Survivor

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Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« on: April 05, 2012, 11:39:30 am »
This is the drama thread. Any drama related to this which happens outside of the boundaries of this thread has the chance of getting locked, smashed, banned or ridiculed. Inside this thread you may go at it.

Although there's been a bit of serious discussion at the start of this wonderful soap opera, it now has devolved to the point of a back-and-forth where the only purpose seems to be to put one's own favored group in a good light and the other group in a corner. This is possibly to garner transfers from the playerbase of Tremulous itself, and prevent people preferring the other 'other' Tremulous.

However, that is not something which needs to happen, and definitely does not need to happen here. If either (the inclusive kind) of the two groups makes a game worth playing then you'll have something to fight with. At the moment it's just two parties going at each other with those inflatable clubs, to try and see who blew theirs up the hardest, or can deflate the other one the most. That's not what this forum is about.

Thus I'll set the rules for discussing these two modifications of the game this forum is actually about:
  • Copyright, trademark and other legal issues of these two modifications, but only when they also pertain to Tremulous itself as it stands now: Feedback Forum
  • Alpha and other true test release announcements: Mod Releases
  • Beta-Release/Final release announcements: General Discussion
  • All the other drama: This fucking topic

Both groups are welcome to help and be helped in the forums of the 'Media' and 'Mods' categories, as long as they keep to the set topic for those forums.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 11:43:40 am by Survivor »
I’m busy. I’ll ignore you later.

cron

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Clearing the Air
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2012, 08:04:53 pm »
REDACTED
As co-head of the U n v a n q u i s h e d project, I want to clarify some things and give everyone a better picture of where we are now.

I want everyone to know that above all, it is my only wish for Unv to see the continued development of Trem style play in an open way. We aim to use new technologies and assets which enhance the play experience, and to give players, server owners and admins some needed features and tools to take this game to new heights and to bring it to a new generation of gamers and hardcore fans alike.

I want to state that I am against these personal attacks and have tried to discourage them as much as possible. I don't like the negative attention that has been surrounding the project, and would like to see an end to it so that we can get on with things. The actions and statements of some of the individual developers do not necessarily represent the views and opinions of the official development team.

Founded by Player1, the Unv project started as a collaborative effort to bring players within the Tremulous community together to develop the game in new ways in an open, educational and developer friendly environment. The plan was simple; get the right people together, get them excited about making a new game, and let them run wild with it.

I joined the project a couple of months afters its launch for the purpose of learning about open source game design, and had been dreaming up a game which involved three teams, so it was a perfect match.

Unfortunately, life gets in the way, plans and people change, and things don't always turn out as exactly how we like. Player1 had to leave the project and he then charged me with the task of continuing this dream, which I am still dedicated to.

In early 2009 I met Volt through the modding group. This was when we were originally planning a mod for Tremulous, and later started planning a new sci-fi based game built loosely around Trem style play. We had worked together on various projects related to Unv, but eventually Volt had to take an extended leave, but stayed in occasional contact with us.

In late 2010 I started a sister project 'TremHD', which aimed to get a discussion going about producing new assets, to serve as a repo for said 3D models and artwork, and to educate players and artists about asset production. Sadly the project was short lived, because in spring of 2011 all of our various project's web services suddenly died when our hosting provider shut their doors and closed down without notice to their customers. It was also during this time that I had to step away from the project for a while due to some real Life™ stuff.

In summer of 2011 I came back online was glad to see that Volt had ran with RedSky's concept artwork for aliens from the NeoTrem project and had formed the Trem Z project with people related to Trem, Unv, Dretch Storm, and other projects.

Trem Z would be a graphical update to Tremulous with new assets, and new features, and run on Dushan's OpenWolf engine, which was a fork of the ET:Xreal engine - plus improvements from ioq3 and other codebases.

In the fall of 2011, Volt brought Dushan into the project directly,  during a time in which many new experimental development ideas were being heavily debated. It is my belief that this was timed poorly, as Dushan didn't receive a proper introduction, and his ideas were then presented prematurely in an inappropriate arena with an inappropriate audience.

Shortly before the originally scheduled release date of Jan 1st 2012, Volt stepped down, and named both myself and Celestial Rage (`Ishq) as heads of the Trem Z project. Volt would continue to work offline on a new HUD and sounds for the game. We moved the planned release date to a more realistic date of Feb 29, 2012.

Development continued, and we voted as a group to rename from Trem Z to Unv (which Volt supported). Namely, the name change was needed because Trem Z was only the 'working title' or 'project name' and was not intended for long term use, and we felt it wasn't appropriate to base the name on 'Tremulous', the same way Tremulous isn't named after Gloom.

Dushan continued working with us for a while but ultimately things got ugly and he left due to inter-personal conflicts with other /developers.

Although he was leaving, it was understood at the time that Dushan would continue to develop OpenWolf to support all q3* based games, and we would stick to developing just what we needed for Unv. The projects would be friendly but have different goals. We decided to re-brand, calling our implementation of the engine Daemon.

In the weeks leading up to our first release, Volt came forward with a list of complaints that he had about the project. The points he raised were largely non-issues when we discussed them - many apparently based on misunderstandings generated by a simple lack of communication caused by him being outside of the development group, or so it seemed at the time.

On leap day, Feb 29, we released U n v a n q u i s h e d Alpha 1. The first release was very rough around the edges, but still received a warm welcome from the players who checked it out.

Days later, accusations were made inside of the development group that Volt was possibly making assets which may have been based on copyrighted material and claiming it as his own work.

With some further prying on my part, it was also revealed to me that Dushan had quietly moved his repository for OpenWolf to a new host, in which Volt helped maintain a separate 'secret' Trem Z branch.

Amidst these accusations, I raised the larger point that the real issue is that there was zero transparency to Volt's work and so there was never an opportunity to review if his work was legitimate or usable for the game.

I also raised the question to HermXIV if he would honor Volt and I's agreement to name me as head of the project and to be a contact with our hosting provider, and also if he was willing to help with the rebrand to Unv. He stated that he had no intention of doing either, to which Volt claimed ignorance about his indifference to both matters.

Instead of dealing with these issues in a mature way, Volt launched personal attacks on others and then banned several developers, including myself, from the Trem Z forums.

Because I had suspected foul play and predicted that there would be some immature behavior, I revealed that I had already been in talks with the hosting provider and secured a new dedicated server, cutting HermXIV out of the picture completely.

So as you can see, it is not the case that Unv forked from Trem Z. As a result of my line of questions to Volt, he banned devs and now Trem Z is the hijacked remnants of the old project. I briefly considered Dushan's offers to make peace, but really his involvement with the project directly is not needed at this time, and ultimately the idea just didn't gel well with the majority of the artists and other devs, who have already rallied together against Volt, and banded together under the new Unv name.

The remaining (minority) of players and devs who currently support Trem Z are free to do whatever they want, and really there should be no hard feelings about this in the future. What happened, happened and it's done.

Who #knows, maybe the play changes that Trem Z want to do might work out great, but I feel that Volt's approach has been very heavy handed (to say the least), and ultimately Trem Z does not really represent the goals of the other devs.

We've since released another Alpha with many bug fixes and continue asset production, and continue to stabilize the project and plan for the long haul. But anyway, it's no secret what we're doing - anyone can get involved.

The question I ask myself now is, 'where do we go from here'? Unv will continue to do monthly releases and I believe it is in the best interest of the game, for whatever we do, to include the community in the process and push ahead forward, together.

TL;DR - Decide for yourself.


REDACTED

It is OK to use copyrighted materials to do prototyping / mockup.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 03:38:33 pm by cron »

Nux

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2012, 03:19:29 pm »
What actually happened to Player1?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 06:06:38 pm by Nux »

cron

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2012, 04:04:42 pm »
What actually happened to Player1?

He left Trem and Unv to have more family time and to pursue other endeavors, mainly story writing and listening to awesome doom metal.

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2012, 06:55:24 pm »
so wait, now unvanquished is claiming to be a direct continuation of the old project of the same name?

umm....  you know, if i get a lot of former yankees together and make a baseball team, we are not the yankees just because i have all these former members.

especially if we are playing football and not baseball.
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n.o.s.brain

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2012, 12:08:25 am »
 :jetpack:
so wait, now Unvanquished is claiming to be a direct continuation of the old project of the same name?

umm....  you know, if i get a lot of former yankees together and make a baseball team, we are not the yankees just because i have all these former members.

especially if we are playing football and not baseball.
No, its just that Unvansquished is such a cool name.

CreatureofHell

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2012, 12:17:40 am »
:jetpack:
so wait, now Unvanquished is claiming to be a direct continuation of the old project of the same name?

umm....  you know, if i get a lot of former yankees together and make a baseball team, we are not the yankees just because i have all these former members.

especially if we are playing football and not baseball.
No, its just that Unvansquished is such a cool name.

Not from what I've seen cron say. He seems to suggest what RAKninja mentioned.
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cron

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2012, 03:55:03 am »
so wait, now Unvanquished is claiming to be a direct continuation of the old project of the same name?

No. This is not what I am claiming. There is no real relationship between the projects, other than that there are some of the same people involved.

However, it should be noted that this is exactly what the current TremZ crew would have people (wrongly) believe, that they're "a direct continuation of the old project of the same name", which is false. Unvanquished is the direct continuation of the old TremZ project (sans haters).
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 03:28:10 pm by cron »

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2012, 08:48:31 am »
so wait, now Unvanquished is claiming to be a direct continuation of the old project of the same name?

No. This is not what I am claiming. There is no real relationship between the projects, other than that there are some of the same people involved.

However, it should be noted that this is exactly what the current TremZ crew would have people (wrongly) believe, that they're "a direct continuation of the old project of the same name", which is false. Unv is this.
Quote
Quote
Quote from: CreatureofHell on April 01, 2012, 05:09:06 PM
I have just realised that Player1 is a genius. He started up a brilliant project to revamp Tremulous. This project gave birth to two new projects which are continuing his original goal. One of these projects has even produced something. This is a huge step forward for Tremulous.

Where is Player1 now? Nobody knows. But what I do know is that he doesn't have to deal with any of the drama going on.

No drama! Carefree! Wouldn't you like to be like that?
Fixed that for you.

i was unaware of player1's involvement in the current project.  if you were not insinuating direct connection with this little joke, what do i make of it?

please, do not take my words maliciously, but it looks to me like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth, as the expression goes.  bear in mind, i am a bystander.  i have no preference or connection to either tine of the fork.

oh, there was also that other post with a timeline of sorts attributing the history of the current project as starting as the original project, back in the day.

yes, i understand "many are the same people", but you are working on another project with different goals and different tools.  usually, this warrants a name change.  look how many names the core team behind diablo has been through.  or the guys behind the first two tribes games.  sure there are also legal maters in those cases as well, but it seems to be a good practice.
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Nux

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2012, 12:13:48 pm »
yes, i understand "many are the same people", but you are working on another project with different goals and different tools.  usually, this warrants a name change.  look how many names the core team behind diablo has been through.  or the guys behind the first two tribes games.  sure there are also legal maters in those cases as well, but it seems to be a good practice.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 'Unvanquished' what they're calling the game and if the team has a name it's 'The Unvanquished Team'. Also note how in your examples Diablo was still called 'Diablo' and Tribes was still called 'Tribes'. If I'm right, all you've shown is how they're doing what everyone in industry does: Keeping the product name as if it's the same product they spent all that time hyping ages ago. Take a look at Duke Nukem Forever for a great example of that.

I don't think this is an attempt to deceive us though. I think it's more personal to them than that. They just want the banner from their old project to be lifted again instead of consigning it to history as the name of a failed project.

so wait, now Unvanquished is claiming to be a direct continuation of the old project of the same name?

No. This is not what I am claiming. There is no real relationship between the projects, other than that there are some of the same people involved.

However, it should be noted that this is exactly what the current TremZ crew would have people (wrongly) believe, that they're "a direct continuation of the old project of the same name", which is false. Unv is this.

It sounds like you're saying: "Unv is a direct continuation of the old project of the same name" but since that would be exactly contradicting what you said in the first line, I'm pretty sure you mean: "Unv is a direct continuation of the old project (TremZ)". Am I wrong?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 06:09:01 pm by Nux »

danmal

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2012, 02:08:39 pm »
I don't even know what the fuck is going. If you want to change the fucking names of Tremz and Unvanquished can you change them to fucking different names. Trying to remember which name is which when they're so fucking similar is unbelievably annoying. It's a fucking cunt move and beyond stupid.

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2012, 06:38:57 am »
yes, i understand "many are the same people", but you are working on another project with different goals and different tools.  usually, this warrants a name change.  look how many names the core team behind diablo has been through.  or the guys behind the first two tribes games.  sure there are also legal maters in those cases as well, but it seems to be a good practice.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 'Unvanquished' what they're calling the game and if the team has a name it's 'The Unvanquished Team'. Also note how in your examples Diablo was still called 'Diablo' and Tribes was still called 'Tribes'. If I'm right, all you've shown is how they're doing what everyone in industry does: Keeping the product name as if it's the same product they spent all that time hyping ages ago. Take a look at Duke Nukem Forever for a great example of that.

I don't think this is an attempt to deceive us though. I think it's more personal to them than that. They just want the banner from their old project to be lifted again instead of consigning it to history as the name of a failed project.

so wait, now Unvanquished is claiming to be a direct continuation of the old project of the same name?

No. This is not what I am claiming. There is no real relationship between the projects, other than that there are some of the same people involved.

However, it should be noted that this is exactly what the current TremZ crew would have people (wrongly) believe, that they're "a direct continuation of the old project of the same name", which is false. Unv is this.

It sounds like you're saying: "Unv is a direct continuation of the old project of the same name" but since that would be exactly contradicting what you said in the first line, I'm pretty sure you mean: "Unv is a direct continuation of the old project (TremZ)". Am I wrong?

i used those examples because those teams are working on projects that the populace tends to call "spiritual successors".  for example, you would not know who i meant if i had said "the hellgate team", "the mythos team"  or "the torchlight team", but if i say "the diablo team"  you know who i mean.

your example with duke nukem is the exact opposite.  it is an unrelated team developing an established franchise, rather than an established team working on a "new" IP.

according to the design goals i read in the original unv thread,  the things the current unv team are doing were listed....  as what looks like afterthoughts.  the crux of the prior team was introducing TF2 bullshit under a race painted in blizzard colors.

on the other hand, current unv team seems more set on doing those "afterthoughts" from the first project, while slowly rebalancing trem back to 1.2.  BTW, unv team members, that is why i do not care for your project.

as for confused grammar, when i say "x is a direct successor to the old project of the same name", "the same name" is intended to relate to the name i provided, the subject of the sentence, x in this case.  it just seems redundant to say the way you illustrated, to me.
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kharnov

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2012, 07:28:03 am »
on the other hand, current unv team seems more set on doing those "afterthoughts" from the first project, while slowly rebalancing trem back to 1.2.  BTW, unv team members, that is why i do not care for your project.

Actually, that isn't our intent at all. However, I don't think this is the right thread to discuss that in. I could discuss things with you over private messages, or you can make a thread on our forums, if you'd like.

danmal

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2012, 10:09:46 am »
on the other hand, current unv team seems more set on doing those "afterthoughts" from the first project, while slowly rebalancing trem back to 1.2.  BTW, unv team members, that is why i do not care for your project.

I hope you're not advocating Trem 1.1 gameplay because that was fucking awful. Not that 1.2 solved much in that regard anyway.

Nux

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2012, 06:33:48 pm »
RAKninja-Decepticon, you seem to have misread a great deal of what I said. I never suggested you should tell us the names of these game developers. You were saying "The Unv Team" should change the name of their project because this is standard practice for when the tools and goals change. You then gave examples of games developers who had changed the name of their team but hadn't changed the name of the project at all. So my first point was you had actually given counterexamples to your original point.

I'll also note that sequels don't count as spiritual successors. A spiritual successor is only a successor in spirit.

The 'confused grammar' part of my post was to cron about his post. He had said "Unv is this" in a very ambiguous way which I thought might lead to confusion. As it turns out, things led to confusion anyway.

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2012, 06:45:30 pm »
on the other hand, current unv team seems more set on doing those "afterthoughts" from the first project, while slowly rebalancing trem back to 1.2.  BTW, unv team members, that is why i do not care for your project.

Actually, that isn't our intent at all. However, I don't think this is the right thread to discuss that in. I could discuss things with you over private messages, or you can make a thread on our forums, if you'd like.
why not discuss it here?  i have no interest in joining your forums, and addressing it publicly will do much to influence others who have come to the same conclusion i have.

y9u guys may not be intentionaly trying to recreate 1.1, but from the hexa/octapodal side of the house this is what it looks like.

tell me, does your changelog continue the trend of buffing humans while nerfing aliens back to 1.1?
RAKninja-Decepticon, you seem to have misread a great deal of what I said. I never suggested you should tell us the names of these game developers. You were saying "The Unv Team" should change the name of their project because this is standard practice for when the tools and goals change. You then gave examples of games developers who had changed the name of their team but hadn't changed the name of the project at all. So my first point was you had actually given counterexamples to your original point.

I'll also note that sequels don't count as spiritual successors. A spiritual successor is only a successor in spirit.

The 'confused grammar' part of my post was to cron about his post. He had said "Unv is this" in a very ambiguous way which I thought might lead to confusion. As it turns out, things led to confusion anyway.
yes, it was confusing.  i tend to take responses to quotes as said to the last person quoted.

no, nux, that one team changes both team and project names, but the core gameplay has remained the same all of these years.  diablo - blizzard, hellgate/mythos - flagship, torchlight - runic.  if you do not track the members of the team, it is easy to come to the assumption that these "new" teams are not related to the old, and are "ripping off" the original....  which they made.

granted, these name changes are due to legal reasons, copyright and trademark and all of that.  still, it is a good example because new team members, new tools, new project...  it all adds up to a new name.
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kharnov

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2012, 07:10:43 pm »
why not discuss it here?  i have no interest in joining your forums, and addressing it publicly will do much to influence others who have come to the same conclusion i have.

Because this is the drama thread.

janev

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2012, 08:21:24 pm »
What does any of this have to do with half life.  :laugh:
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swamp-cecil

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2012, 09:04:40 pm »
What is this drama even about? I wasnt here and I would like to know.
these are stupid suggestions, don't even waste our time.
I don't like your negative attitude.

CorSair

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2012, 09:15:00 pm »
What is this drama even about? I wasnt here and I would like to know.
Less you know, the better.

danmal

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2012, 10:11:54 pm »
y9u guys may not be intentionaly trying to recreate 1.1, but from the hexa/octapodal side of the house this is what it looks like.

tell me, does your changelog continue the trend of buffing humans while nerfing aliens back to 1.1?

There hasn't been any balance changes in alpha2. Balance is fairly good (gameplay isn't). Not sure if alpha3 will have any balance changes (I doubt it).

Celestial_Rage

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2012, 02:10:07 am »
I don't foresee any significant changes in Alpha3. I've talked to some skilled players and devmapped with them. They are pleased with the balance. We're just awaiting larger games to make sure the balance is good.
"The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated" ~Mark Twain

CreatureofHell

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2012, 11:03:10 am »
I don't foresee any significant changes in Alpha3. I've talked to some skilled players and devmapped with them. They are pleased with the balance. We're just awaiting larger games to make sure the balance is good.

The game isn't about skilled players. D:
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Celestial_Rage

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2012, 04:54:38 pm »
But they generally have a good sense of balance.
"The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated" ~Mark Twain

CreatureofHell

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2012, 08:09:01 pm »
But they generally have a good sense of balance.

So do weighing scales. D:
And see-saws.
And gymnasts.
And flamingos.
{NoS}StalKer
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swamp-cecil

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Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2012, 08:13:02 pm »
How can one access the alpha servers? I'd love to participate
these are stupid suggestions, don't even waste our time.
I don't like your negative attitude.

Celestial_Rage

  • Posts: 636
  • Turrets: +120/-8
Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2012, 10:30:13 pm »
Sure, you can grab alpha2 right here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/unvanquished/files/

"The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated" ~Mark Twain

swamp-cecil

  • Posts: 774
  • Turrets: +80/-163
    • Tremulous
Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2012, 11:06:32 pm »
I got the alpha 3, but nobodys on. Are more people on Alpha 2.5?
these are stupid suggestions, don't even waste our time.
I don't like your negative attitude.

CreatureofHell

  • Posts: 2422
  • Turrets: +430/-126
    • Tremtopia
Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2012, 12:15:26 am »
I got the alpha 3, but nobodys on. Are more people on Alpha 2.5?

Think about Tremulous. Sometimes people just aren't on.
{NoS}StalKer
Quote
<Timbo> posting on the trem forums rarely results in anything good

RAKninja-Decepticon

  • Posts: 843
  • Turrets: +14/-679
    • Stupid Videos
Re: Unvanquished versus TremZ exclusive Drama thread
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2012, 10:22:06 pm »
why not discuss it here?  i have no interest in joining your forums, and addressing it publicly will do much to influence others who have come to the same conclusion i have.

Because this is the drama thread.
and also the only thread abouth either project that a moderater has nbot threatened to close without warning.  no better place, kharnov.

now tell me why i should participate and help supply gamedata for larger games, so you guys can know how to balance.
Note 4: The best, although not always easiest, way to deal with trolls is thus: do not respond at ALL in the thread.
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