Author Topic: my "sniper rifle" dilemma  (Read 21960 times)

Rippy

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my "sniper rifle" dilemma
« on: August 13, 2006, 10:39:14 pm »
I've thought a while about how to have a good high-damage, slow-reload, bolt-action (or the futuristic equivalent) sniper rifle in the game without unbalancing things.

First, I thought the mass driver should do much more damage, since right now it's near useless against everything mara and bigger. But the MD is available in s1, and is only meant to be good at taking out those small aliens. So the MD isn't the sniper rifle I'm thinking of.

Then I thought there should just be an s3 sniper rifle weapon that does LOTS of damage but has a really long reload between shots, in the 3 second range. But then I realised that a weapon that does so much damage, yet leaves you vulnerable after every shot, would only be used for one thing: camping. People would just sit in their base doing 100dmg a hit and not caring about the 2sec reload because they have a nice little base to sit in.

And yet, I still think that a weapon like that would be a nice addition. A sort of luci that does comparable damage, but is hitscan and has long reloads in between shots. But how to make it something that isn't completely abused by campers?

I guess that's why I made a thread about it. Does anyone else yearn for a sniper that does good damage? And how to make it less easily campable? Finding an excuse that makes it not function near the reactor?
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kozak6

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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2006, 10:45:34 pm »
NO.

vcxzet

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Re: my "sniper rifle" dilemma
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2006, 10:47:31 pm »
Quote from: "Rippy"
I've thought a while about how to have a good high-damage, slow-reload, bolt-action (or the futuristic equivalent) sniper rifle in the game without unbalancing things.

First, I thought the mass driver should do much more damage, since right now it's near useless against everything mara and bigger. But the MD is available in s1, and is only meant to be good at taking out those small aliens. So the MD isn't the sniper rifle I'm thinking of.

Then I thought there should just be an s3 sniper rifle weapon that does LOTS of damage but has a really long reload between shots, in the 3 second range. But then I realised that a weapon that does so much damage, yet leaves you vulnerable after every shot, would only be used for one thing: camping. People would just sit in their base doing 100dmg a hit and not caring about the 2sec reload because they have a nice little base to sit in.

And yet, I still think that a weapon like that would be a nice addition. A sort of luci that does comparable damage, but is hitscan and has long reloads in between shots. But how to make it something that isn't completely abused by campers?

I guess that's why I made a thread about it. Does anyone else yearn for a sniper that does good damage? And how to make it less easily campable? Finding an excuse that makes it not function near the reactor?

massdriver does enough damage

Juno

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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2006, 10:48:22 pm »
there are no maps so big that you can snipe aliens


if you have time to sit and snipe your either camping , or a dretch/mara/goon is waiting for you to shoot before ambushing you.

the games tend to be so fast paced that your constantly attacked and your almost always fighting aliens very close to you


but meh, might be good to take out fleeing tyrants etc


but then again, just chase them with a chaingun etc rather than being in the base and doing it from afar


there are weapons that would do a much better job imo

Henners

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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2006, 10:58:26 pm »
Quote
A sort of luci that does comparable damage, but is hitscan


HAHAHAHA fuck off. This one isnt even worth an objection its so stupid.
Official Ace Forum Attorney. If your post is stupid I will object...

kozak6

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Re: my "sniper rifle" dilemma
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2006, 10:58:30 pm »
Quote from: "Rippy"
The mass driver is way too hard for me to use.

So, then, I want a gun that's like the mass driver, but kills Adv. Goons in one hit.

What do you guys think?
   

Rippy

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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2006, 10:59:20 pm »
True, this must be the CS:S in me talking :P

Juno I reluctantly agree with, but not vcxzet. MD does 38 damage a shot, ending up with 38 damage a second. Shotgun does 56, chaingun does 75, even the FREE weapon does 55.5 a second. The MD has the second-lowest dps, beaten only by the blaster. The spread is why the MD is only good against small aliens: when you're using a chaingun on a dretch, only maybe 1/10 of the bullets is going to hit it. With an MD, none of the damage is lost in missed bullets. However when facing a large target, very few bullets are lost due to spread. Which is why a shotgun is ok against a Tyrant, but the MD stays weak against the large aliens, while raping the small ones.

Edit: To posts I missed (i.e. useless angry trolling): MD simply isn't effective against large aliens. It doesn't have to do with how accurate you are, it's just the damage it deals. And Henners, you deliberately left out the "with long reloads in between shots" part just to make that quote sound bad. THAT deserves the objection :/
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Thorn

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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2006, 11:05:39 pm »
Fuck off.

Player goes to armory and buys sniper rifle. All aliens die. Game over.

Killing an adv bafoon in 1 shot? GET A GRIP. If you cant hold an md ,then u cant hold a sniper rifle.

kozak6

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« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2006, 11:16:02 pm »
Quote from: "Rippy"
 I just want to kill Adv. Goons in one hit.  I don't understand why that is such a big deal.

Why can't you just give me what I want?  

Zakky

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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2006, 11:18:03 pm »
Killing Adv. Goons in a single shot is a weeeee bit overpowered methinks  :wink:
oo!

Rippy

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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2006, 11:19:01 pm »
Why does everyone default to dick mode the moment someone suggests an idea?
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Zakky

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« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2006, 11:24:32 pm »
Because that way it becomes more FUN!  :P
oo!

kozak6

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« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2006, 11:25:31 pm »
Alright, fine.

Suppose someone suggested an idea like this:

"The basilisk just isn't useful against battlesuits with lucifers.

So, then, I think the basilisk should get 600 hitpoints, and kill bsuits in one hit, and shoot lasers from its eyes.

What do you guys think?"

How would you respond to such a suggestion?  It's really not that different from yours.

Rippy

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« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2006, 11:38:42 pm »
Quote from: "kozak6"
How would you respond to such a suggestion?  It's really not that different from yours.

"No offense, but that idea is terrible. [explanation]"
"WAY overpowered. [explanation]"
"That balances the game how? [explanation]"

Also, please don't exaggerate. I was suggesting a hitscan weapon that did a comparable amount of damage to the luci, but that has a longer reload between shots (3 seconds or so total) to balance its hitscan attribute. How you can compare that to a 600-hp, 1-hit-kill basilisk, I'll never know.

OR, instead of just telling me I'm gay and should go die, it would help to explain WHY the idea is so flawed. Noone learns or gains anything when you just mock them, if you were to add an explanation to the end of your mockery, you'd at least be basing it off of something and it wouldn't sound as bad.

Oh and thanks Juno for posting something constructive. Ima let this thread drop, since I'm pretty sure I've squeezed out all its meagre usefulness already o_O
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Seffylight

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« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2006, 11:38:45 pm »
Kozak.. I think I love you.

Will you fucking marry me, man? :cry:

Edit: Learn to use a massdriver, thnx.
Stop it. Seriously.

Ksempac

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« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2006, 02:00:14 am »
Rippy : Do you want an explanation ? Here it is : You can do more than 200 dmg to an alien with a full charged Lucy...Enough to nearlly one shot an adv goon (the 2nd strongest alien i remind you). The only thing that doesnt make it the ultimate weapon is the slowliness of the shot, making it easilly avoidable at middle and high range.
And you re asking for a weapon that does the same amount of dmg with ultra high speed.
Moreover the only thing you imagined to "balance" the weapon is a long reload time. You said yourself that, with a long reload time, this is only a weapon for campers. The same campers everyone say they ruin the game and try to get ride of. That makes your idea even worse.

Now is that enough ? Do you see how silly your idea is ?

P.S : Although i do think sometimes the Mass Driver could be a little upgraded, i only need to remind me what Jimbo does when he gets his hands on a MD to know this wouldn t be a good idea. So i keep practicing  my MD skills (or rather my lack of skills) hoping i will one day be able to be half as good as him.
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DIGI_Byte

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« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2006, 02:36:12 am »
forget about the above crap.

Great idea, but no.


its impractical and it will promote camping.



...

hell i would run around head shooting bugs but i don't think they have a head box like humans.

Rippy

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« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2006, 04:12:29 am »
Quote from: "Ksempac"
Rippy : Do you want an explanation ? Here it is : You can do more than 200 dmg to an alien with a full charged Lucy...Enough to nearlly one shot an adv goon (the 2nd strongest alien i remind you). The only thing that doesnt make it the ultimate weapon is the slowliness of the shot, making it easilly avoidable at middle and high range.
And you re asking for a weapon that does the same amount of dmg with ultra high speed.
Moreover the only thing you imagined to "balance" the weapon is a long reload time. You said yourself that, with a long reload time, this is only a weapon for campers. The same campers everyone say they ruin the game and try to get ride of. That makes your idea even worse.

Now is that enough ? Do you see how silly your idea is ?

P.S : Although i do think sometimes the Mass Driver could be a little upgraded, i only need to remind me what Jimbo does when he gets his hands on a MD to know this wouldn t be a good idea. So i keep practicing  my MD skills (or rather my lack of skills) hoping i will one day be able to be half as good as him.


Ah, I'd forgotten the luci can do up to 200. I was thinking around the 100 damage range. Heck, you could even downgrade it much more, into a kind of rifle that does 60 or so damage a hit, with a clip and reload similar to the MD. An improved MD, I suppose.

Again, I'm just throwing things out there trying to think of an accurate weapon that's more effective against bigger aliens than smaller ones, so pretty much everything I spew out is bound to be crap o_O It's tough to have an accurate weapon that can't be used to camp long hallways for small aliens (already got the MD for that).

Here we go, I've got a slightly less crappy alternative. The weapon (which would have to be an energy weapon for this to make sense) would take a mandatory 1 second to charge up before the shot (or beam) is released. And while charging, it starts to shake so violently that your view starts vibrating, much like the chaingun. Doesn't affect the accuracy at all, just makes it much harder to aim well, or to get a perfect shot you need to line it up BEFORE you start charging. Does around 120 damage a shot (it's an s3 weapon, it should at least kill dretches and basis in 1hit), giving it 60 damage per second (1 second to charge, 1 second cooldown) compared to the MD's 38. I'm picking 60dps because it fits nicely between the prifle and chaingun, which both have their own drawbacks to compensate for the high damage (slow shots / innacurate, respectively)

Now, don't comment on whether or not such a weapon is NECESSARY, since I obviously don't think the game needs something like this at this time. But variety in weapons/evos is what'll make Tremulous awesome for even longer, so I'm just throwing ideas out there.

Now please, point out the flaws in my revised sniper-esque weapon, since there's gotta be something I missed. x_o

Note: I'll point it out myself that, at 120 damage, that thing COULD take out an adv granger in 1 hit. lmao. But so could a luci, the other s3 weapon.
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PHREAK

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« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2006, 09:14:33 am »
Rippy, play the game a tad more then make a suggestion.
If you're not aware how much damage a certain current weapon does and how much HP an alien class has leads me to believe that you're in absolutly no possition to make new weapon suggestions.

Had you suggested a MD with a tweakable DMG setting proportional to ammo usage, someone might have taken you seroiusly.
Yelling at team mates since 2006!

kozak6

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« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2006, 10:01:26 am »
Rippy......

Just to settle my curiousity, do you ever play as a bug?

Aninhumer

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« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2006, 10:09:53 am »
How many targets are going to stand still for 1 second? Discounting those who are chatting or have a terminal open. Maybe buildings, but the pulse rifle is already a base smegging weapon.

vcxzet

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my "sniper rifle" dilemma
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2006, 11:30:41 am »
Quote from: "kozak6"
Rippy......

Just to settle my curiousity, do you ever play as a bug?

yeah some MD maniac comes to the scenes and starts to massdrive maras dretches and even goons.

Rippy

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« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2006, 03:35:19 pm »
Quote from: "Aninhumer"
How many targets are going to stand still for 1 second? Discounting those who are chatting or have a terminal open. Maybe buildings, but the pulse rifle is already a base smegging weapon.

Well yeah, you press fire then are required to track your target for one second while it charges up.

And yes, I play aliens more often than humans since I find I do better with them (although it varies). I know exactly how painful it is to be 1-hit killed as a dretch or 2-hit killed as a basi. I also know how painful it is to be 1-hit killed as a friggin' adv. goon (happened to me once) from a luci.

But the actual damage it does is more-or-less irrelevant, since it's not like it's difficult to tweak that. I guess what I'd like to know is, what's so bad about a weaker, hitscan alternative to the luci?

Oh and phreak, it's not that I didn't know how much damage the luci does, I just blanked out I guess and I wasn't thinking about the luci itself so it never came to mind. Anyway, that MD thing is an ok idea, it'd need a delay before the shot that increases when more ammo is used. And of course there'd have to be something to make it only available in s2 or s3 ("Revised Mass Driver" maybe?)

Anyway, thanks for all the harsh yet helpful criticism.
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Aninhumer

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« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2006, 03:50:14 pm »
Quote from: "Rippy"
Quote from: "Aninhumer"
How many targets are going to stand still for 1 second? Discounting those who are chatting or have a terminal open. Maybe buildings, but the pulse rifle is already a base smegging weapon.

Well yeah, you press fire then are required to track your target for one second while it charges up.


Quote from: "Rippy"
And while charging, it starts to shake so violently that your view starts vibrating, much like the chaingun. Doesn't affect the accuracy at all, just makes it much harder to aim well, or to get a perfect shot you need to line it up BEFORE you start charging.


Hmm  :P

Rippy

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« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2006, 03:53:45 pm »
Quote from: "Aninhumer"
Quote from: "Rippy"
Quote from: "Aninhumer"
How many targets are going to stand still for 1 second? Discounting those who are chatting or have a terminal open. Maybe buildings, but the pulse rifle is already a base smegging weapon.

Well yeah, you press fire then are required to track your target for one second while it charges up.


Quote from: "Rippy"
And while charging, it starts to shake so violently that your view starts vibrating, much like the chaingun. Doesn't affect the accuracy at all, just makes it much harder to aim well, or to get a perfect shot you need to line it up BEFORE you start charging.


Hmm  :P

Touché, another way to balance the firepower :P It wouldn't be quite as extreme as the chaingun, but it'd be something to stop you from having 100% aim. Heck, I guess there doesn't even need to be view shaking, since its damage is constantly being whittled down and it's starting to be only fair to give 'em a decent shot.
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Lava Croft

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« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2006, 04:14:13 pm »
treemulos aldy haz a sniepr riefl

Dj_Pong

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« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2006, 04:17:11 pm »
Quote from: "Thorn"
Player goes to armory and buys sniper rifle. All aliens die. Game over.

 :P You wish dude... you wish...

Aah wait a min xD You play against "UNNAMEDPLAYER" when you "own"
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kraagenskul

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« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2006, 05:38:04 pm »
What a bunch of pricks on this board... somebody makes a suggestion that they acknowledge might not work for some reason and everybody just trashes him. My favorite was from PHREAK, who told him he needs to play the game a tad more. Yes, 200 posts, but he obviously doesn't play enough, he just posts to the forum all day. But at least his reply was readable, which is more then I can say for kozak6, Henners, or Thorn who were all total douchebags about it.

There are a few good reply posts, but it took 11 replies (not including the author's) before somebody bothered to post a reasonable counter point. Being a prick in the forums is going to make it tough to get new people to play, which we need to make this game survive.

Take somebody new to the game who has played say, 15 hours of Tremulous. They think, "Man, this game needs a sniper rifle"  They go to the forums, see this post, and stop reading after about 7 posts and leave the forum thinking, "Wow, what a bunch of assholes." Not the image we want for Tremulous.
Instead, had the replies been reasonable and thoughtful, he would realize, "ok, a sniper rifle doesn't make sense."

And don't tell me this is a rare case. I read enough forum entries here to know that people reply in a manner they would never do in real life.

Thorn

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« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2006, 05:44:47 pm »
There are about 2000 posts telling people to play the game more than an hour before posting ideas.

If your going to do something like that it would have to be a Stage 4 weapon.

SLAVE|Mietz

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« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2006, 05:47:27 pm »
Quote from: "kraagenskul"
What a bunch of pricks on this board... somebody makes a suggestion that they acknowledge might not work for some reason and everybody just trashes him. My favorite was from PHREAK, who told him he needs to play the game a tad more. Yes, 200 posts, but he obviously doesn't play enough, he just posts to the forum all day. But at least his reply was readable, which is more then I can say for kozak6, Henners, or Thorn who were all total douchebags about it.

There are a few good reply posts, but it took 11 replies (not including the author's) before somebody bothered to post a reasonable counter point. Being a prick in the forums is going to make it tough to get new people to play, which we need to make this game survive.

Take somebody new to the game who has played say, 15 hours of Tremulous. They think, "Man, this game needs a sniper rifle"  They go to the forums, see this post, and stop reading after about 7 posts and leave the forum thinking, "Wow, what a bunch of assholes." Not the image we want for Tremulous.
Instead, had the replies been reasonable and thoughtful, he would realize, "ok, a sniper rifle doesn't make sense."

And don't tell me this is a rare case. I read enough forum entries here to know that people reply in a manner they would never do in real life.


Read the third post of this, look at post-count:

http://www.tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1661

and now, honestly tell me that you can compare game-time/leetnes with forum posts.

good day sir.