Designated builders: Feature design

[Jaradcel]

• Who can be designated builder: Anybody, class/equipment does not matter. However, DBs will still have to become granger or buy ckit in order to build, repair, decon (Q: should they need ckit/granger for toggling structure protection?)
• How can somebody become DB: By teamvote or admin command.
• How can somebody lose DB status: By teamvote (Q: should teamvote revoke DB status given by admin?), admin command or he could resign (Q: /resign or something else?)
• DB privileges: Unlimited deconstruction (even for protected structures), building protection from deconners (protected structures can be deconstructed only by another DB, any building built by DB is protected by default, DB can also toggle protection of already built structures; Q: reload key?)
• Structure protection duration: Until deconned, destroyed, toggled off by DB or until all DBs disconnect or lose DB status (Q: should the disconnect/lose DB status check be global or for each DB separately?)

My thoughts as a regular builder (Believe it or not.... I got so bored while a bunch of excellent boys were off raping the alien base I browsed the forum and re-read this to refresh my memory...

A) I think DB's should not need to have their ckit/grangar in order to toggle whether a building should or should not be protected. In some instances, such as rasz's demo map on pwning as a tyrant floating someplace else in this forum, the engineer/grangar will have to forcibly swap to something else in the meantime, and the handy ability to demarcate or undemarcate is surely something you don't need a ckit for (I see it as: "OK you fraggin' grunts. Do NOT touch the armory with your kit set to deconstruct! Hicks! That goes for you!" and then later, "Ok son, I'll let you move it, just this once.") (Hmmm there go my keybinds for what I'll say for them already :P)

B) Teamvote should probably allow revokation from admins - Admit it, some admins are dicks, and they'll pander to their lackeys, even if it means letting a much better player suck it high and dry. I'd really rather not (but then that begs the question: Why am I playing there still in the first place? Hmm...)

C) /resign sounds fine.

D) /reload key to set protected status was a good idea, but if we allow those who are DB's and who are not currently holding ckits/grangars to change options with any weapon equipped/in any evolved form, perhaps we could make this a keybind that they choose instead.

[Stof]

Just make use of the blaster secondary fire for the DB protection tool

Ok, that's a crude hack I'll admit it.

[next_ghost]

The only option for class/weapon unlimited protection toggle would be another command. Secondary blaster would be nice for humans but it would be inconsistent for aliens, which breaks the least surprise rule.

[next_ghost]

D) /reload key to set protected status was a good idea, but if we allow those who are DB's and who are not currently holding ckits/grangars to change options with any weapon equipped/in any evolved form, perhaps we could make this a keybind that they choose instead.

Here you go, /protect command. The new patch is here.

[Aninhumer]

I'm not sure /resign is such a good command, it sounds a little too generic.

Or am I imagining a structure for the commands that isn't there?

[next_ghost]

I'm not sure /resign is such a good command, it sounds a little too generic.

Or am I imagining a structure for the commands that isn't there?

If somebody adds some new feature that would require resigns, he can use /resign for it by adding a parameter. Right now, it's just /resign. Later, it might be /resign builder, /resign commander, /resign whatever...

[hodge]

Ghost's idea actually could be a very good thing in Trem, it could use some work but with some time spent on the problem I am sure someone could come up with something that could benefit alot of players. One simple idea would be to make it so the game or a server's admin could use it to to prevent untrusted players on a team the right to decon the main structure. Far to many games have been ruined in the past by deconners or non-experienced player trying to move the base at the worst time possible and this kind of thing leads many players to quitting the game. A feature that protects a team from new builders and griefers can be a very good thing.  

cons:
-complicates the game.

It could if designed poorly, but if you get a smart group hackers together they could end up with a in-game feature that prevents jerks from ruining the game and doesn't complicated the game at all. Their just isn't any reason

I find it funny that so many admin kiddies felt the need to write on this forum that they thought a feature that prevents new players from making a big mistake like deconning the reactor would most likely hinder the game, perhaps they like they fact that they have someone to use their undeserved admin abilities on. I guess some admins just don't understand the fact that when a griefer or a new player decons the team's overmind or reactor at the wrong time the game is already ruined for everyone. That or the fact that many people couldn't design a game's feature for the life of them.

[rasz_pl]

!denybuild FTW

[next_ghost]

!denybuild FTW

BAAAAAAAAD idea. Imagine the last alive human in the map is denied building. There're no telenodes, just armoury and reactor. Everybody shouts "BUILD! BUILD!" and he can't. If he won't build because he's a moron, the loss is his fault. If he won't build because you have forbidden it, it's your fault.

[next_ghost]

The final patch including permanent designation is done, you can grab it here.

[rasz_pl]

!denybuild FTW

BAAAAAAAAD idea. Imagine the last alive human in the map is denied building. There're no telenodes, just armoury and reactor. Everybody shouts "BUILD! BUILD!" and

and !allowbuild FTW
yes, it works only with active admins
yes, playing on servers without admins is DUMP, so dont be a dump person
it sure is better than !kick xxx IDIOTNEVEREVERtouchCKITagainYOUmongol

[hodge]

Giving admins the right to block building from players they don't like would probably be a very bad idea.

Just imagine a game where you had a power hungry admin who liked to play granger on the alien team and thought that nobody on the team know how to build well as granger in the game and decides to block everyone on the team except for his one friend in the game.

The alien team kicks the humans ass at s1 and reaches stage 2 before the humans the humans end up camping when they see the most of the aliens are maras and goons the humans are actually successful in camping and end of leaving the aliens with very few ep. While the human team camps two alien feeders decide to spawn as adv granger and thinks it's a good idea to spit at the humans base they are both easily killed, and the team notices that they just gave the humans s2 and a very frustrated admin kicks both of them out of the game.

At s2 all hell breaks loose and the human team rushes a unfinshed alien base with pulse and nades. Everything is destroyed except for one egg every alien wants to spawn as granger but the admin is so pisseed off that he forgets to allow people to build and most players end up spawning as dretches, the teams two builders have to wait before the other players before they can spawn. Sadly the human team finds the hidden egg before any granger spawns and the human win the game and our pissed of admin friend kicks the whole alien team except for his one friend.

So IMHO !allowbuild is worse then !kick IAmANoobie BurnInHell

[rasz_pl]

Giving admins the right to block building from players they don't like would probably be a very bad idea.

Just imagine a game where you had a power hungry admin

you are talking about Lava again, arent you ?
I dont know any other 'power hungry' 'except for his one friend' admin. Besides !denybuild is the least of your worries if such an admin has !kick.

[hodge]

Giving admins the right to block building from players they don't like would probably be a very bad idea.

Just imagine a game where you had a power hungry admin

you are talking about Lava again, arent you ?
I dont know any other 'power hungry' 'except for his one friend' admin. Besides !denybuild is the least of your worries if such an admin has !kick.

Actually, I didn't have lava croft in mind when I was writting that crap. Satgnu does make its rules clear and I think mwa and lava croft do try and follow them assuming that they arn't pissed off and the admins in general can can be a real pain to deal with when they are having a bad day.

What bothers me about admins with alot of rights is that they could easily ruin the game with a single command.

[benplaut]

I still think it would be alot more useful to have a voteable 15min ban... so a greifer comes, oh well! restart the map and they'll loose interesting in 15min  

[next_ghost]

I still think it would be alot more useful to have a voteable 15min ban... so a greifer comes, oh well! restart the map and they'll loose interesting in 15min  

If this idea gets in the trunk, griefer comes, gets ckit, presses deconstruct key and BANG... Nothing happens

[Stof]

I fear it'll be more like that for a 10 game sample :
- 4 games, we wasted our time voting for a dedicated builder in case a griefer would come which never happend
- 3 games, we voted for a dedicated builder and it prevented a griefer from messing with our base. Only we never knew it happened and so, in the players mind it was yet another useless vote at the start of the game
- 2 games, we lost because of a griefer and because we were sick of uselessly voting for a dedicated builder
- 1 game, we voted a griefer as a dedicated builder and by the time we got him kicked, the base was full of medistations with no armory or turrets in sight

The biggest risk here is that the feature will be seen as annoying and intrusive by the players, and so that they will stop using it after some time. But in the end, as long as it is used it'll sure help get rid of base deconners.

[rasz_pl]

Satgnu does make its rules clear and I think mwa and lava croft do try and follow them assuming that they arn't pissed off

yep, one of those rules is !kick rasz_pl if you cant kill him (happened yesterday )

What bothers me about admins with alot of rights is that they could easily ruin the game with a single command.

erm, there is always some metaadmin/server owner that you can complain to, they usually DONT like power hungry admins. All I can say is I'm VERY impressed with Napkin(aliens wrath) and Tommat(IRS PubPL).
Hodge, please say out loud WHAT ARE YOU TALKING about, there are no other 'admins with alot of rights that could easily ruin the game' other than Lava that I know of .

[hodge]

with alot of rights that could easily ruin the game' other than Lava that I know of .

Opps, sorry for the confussion. I actually wasn't trying to report any bad admin use in Tremulous, It's to my surprise that someone actually took something I poorly written in a few minutes serious. As far as I am aware most Tremulous servers (sst isn't one of them) have good level 4 and 5 admins except lava :-).

Perhaps !disallowbuild really is something that should be giving to admins. Recently on Satgnu I was banned from the server (no not by lava)  shortly after I joined because I decided to decon a extra telenode. Basically I deconned the telenode because we already had 3 that were in it's  default location, the base's rector and spawn were vulnerable to maras and goons and I didn't want to decon any defense my team placed because someone might get pissed. If I was denied building I wouldn't have been banned and I could have told whoever built that awful base that the base was vulnerable to an attack.

- 1 game, we voted a griefer as a dedicated builder and by the time we got him kicked, the base was full of medistations with no armory or turrets in sight

The only way you can be sure if someone is who the say they are is if they have admin rights of one or more. Spending the time voting for a single builder that could leave the second you vote for him could just be a waste of everyone's time.

More idiotic rambling!

I'm VERY impressed with Napkin(aliens wrath) and Tommat(IRS PubPL).

 Admins that I trust in tremulous are tjw, tommat, mario and sometimes napkin (When I am on his team and he isn't pissed off). It's a damn shame that an active admin like lava croft has turned to the dark side.

[Stof]

- 1 game, we voted a griefer as a dedicated builder and by the time we got him kicked, the base was full of medistations with no armory or turrets in sight

The only way you can be sure if someone is who the say they are is if they have admin rights of one or more. Spending the time voting for a single builder that could leave the second you vote for him could just be a waste of everyone's time.

Do you say that we should only vote admins as dedicated builders? Wow! Talk about a nearly useless feature then

[next_ghost]

I fear it'll be more like that for a 10 game sample :
- 4 games, we wasted our time voting for a dedicated builder in case a griefer would come which never happend
- 3 games, we voted for a dedicated builder and it prevented a griefer from messing with our base. Only we never knew it happened and so, in the players mind it was yet another useless vote at the start of the game
- 2 games, we lost because of a griefer and because we were sick of uselessly voting for a dedicated builder
- 1 game, we voted a griefer as a dedicated builder and by the time we got him kicked, the base was full of medistations with no armory or turrets in sight

The biggest risk here is that the feature will be seen as annoying and intrusive by the players, and so that they will stop using it after some time. But in the end, as long as it is used it'll sure help get rid of base deconners.

Stof, just shut up and wait for the testing results. The code is finished and some servers are already getting this patch.

[Stof]

Sorry about that, it was supposed to be somewhat humoristic but it failed miserably ( probably due to a lack of smiley )

Actually, I would be happy to test that feature despite all I've said ( after all, if something is stupid but works, then it ISN'T stupid )

[MtS]

Designated builders won't help against eggspammers, right? That's the biggest problem when building as alien.

[Romans]

I like the spirit of the idea, but I'm not sure it should be standard-release but instead maybe a mod.

I think it could be simplified by permitting a TEAM VOTE to grant/revoke "Chief/Master" Builder(s).  There could then be several levels of BUILD MODES that specify levels of lock-down of building such as BUILD_MODE_OPEN, BUILD_MODE_NO_DECON, or something.  A Master Builder can set the active mode for the team.  Certain 'sensitive' activities like deconning by a regular builder under BUILD_MODE_NO_DECON won't execute until approval is given by a Master Builder (through like a 'approvebuild'/'rejectbuild' command they could bind).  An automatic approval can be obtained after like 10 seconds so that desperate builders aren't totally at the mercy of a Master Builders alertness.


Only Master Builders would get messages and prompts for approvals so as to not bother the rest of the team.  Certain special cases would need to be covered where the mode would automatically reset to BUILD_MODE_OPEN if all Master Builders disconnect, timeout, idle, SD, "Overmind Needs Spawns", or something.

Again, the Master Builder system doesn't even HAVE to be used.  It's team optional.

Other Master Builder idea extensions could be to give a bp quota to individual builder (a forward base builder), set a max limit on the number of some structure ("no more than 8 eggs", "No more than 2 DCs"), prevent some structures from building ("No barricades, please").  Master builders (or maybe builders in general) could receive more detailed info about damaged/destroyed structures ("Turret #12 Critically Damaged") that may not interest the warriors.

I know any similar scheme is complex, however building is crucial to the game's procession, and large-scale servers with many good regular players would likely demand some sort of enhancement in this area so they can actually have a chance to enjoy a good competitive game.

Yes tools already exist to assist in designating builders like kicking bad builders and voting for a map restart... but how much of that can you really do and have an enjoyable game?  Several have commented that griefers aren't that much a problem, and I for one disagree.  Almost every good game I've had was ultimately ruined by griefers to a percentage of perhaps 70% I'd say.  The frequency and impact of the griefer problem cannot be assumed to remain constant or insignificant either.

[next_ghost]

Designated builders won't help against eggspammers, right? That's the biggest problem when building as alien.

It will as long as your structures stay alive. But I already though about some way of one-time reserving buildpoints only for designated builders so you wouldn't have to fight noobs before you finish the base. The reservation would be canceled when the reserver dies, switches weapon or he uses all buildpoints he has reserved.

[Aninhumer]

Perhaps there should be a (silent) report to the DB if someone attempts to deconn a protected building? That we we can still tell if someone was trying to TK.

I do worry that this will just push TKers to the Painsaw/Grenade route?
(Although I seem to remember there was an answer to this involving autokicking)

[next_ghost]

KOCOUR-CZ now uses SVN823 TJW with designated builders. Everybody is welcome to visit it and test the new feature. And if you'd like to ask [CAT] - Smoke or [CAT] - Gilmor (server operators) to turn friendly-fire on, do it. It's been turned off because of popular (noob) demand.

[raanan]

After last night, I'm looking forward to trying a server with this on it. Some freakin unamed kept coming on yaknet and moving all my shit around so it was snipable as hell then kept wasting build points placing turrets in a hall so he could stand on it. Freakin pissed me off. Thankfully, Yaknet seems to always have an admin or two on it and they're good people so the unamed got kicked... 3 times... but still, this should hopefully keep admins from having to stop their killing so they can kick a player.

[rasz_pl]

KOCOUR-CZ....It's been turned off because of popular (noob) demand.

so much for me playing there :/

[doomagent13]

i dont kno how common this is, but i try to decon human structures when they are about to explode (preventing blast damage)

what happens if a protected structure is imminently going to explode?



(note: this doesnt matter for aliens, as far as i kno)