Sudden Death Balance

[Vector_Matt]

Question, though. As not having played on tjw's lately, I haven't seen this new system in action. How does it keep turrets from being rebuilt?

Turrets cost points, the other stuff doesn't, but the other stuff has limits as to how many can be built.

[tjw]

Question, though. As not having played on tjw's lately, I haven't seen this new system in action. How does it keep turrets from being rebuilt?

When SD starts it counts up all build points the team has tied up in "rebuildable" buildings and uses that number as the total number of build points for that team for the remainder of the match.  During SD, building any building that is not flagged "rebuildable" is explicitly denied.

[tjw]

Since I made the change on my server, here are the Sudden Death wins:

Aliens 13
Humans 5
Draw 7

For the rest of August prior to the change it was:

Aliens 124
Humans 61
Draw 61

Not too promising so far

However, in the games I've played, the change seems to help humans substantially.  Perhaps there is not enough data yet or not everyone is aware that they can rebuild in SD yet?

[Stof]

Thinking about that, I don't think statistics will help us "find and fix" the SD imbalance. After all that was said, it is hard to argue that SD happens much more often when humans camp and are in a losing situation anyway.

If you really want to test the SD balance, it'll have to happen in situations where humans aren't already losing. Something like setting the SD time at 10-15 minutes might give us a better insight into the situation

As it is now, we'll probably have to wait until experienced players test the new setting to see if SD feels more balanced.

[tjw]

Thinking about that, I don't think statistics will help us "find and fix" the SD imbalance. After all that was said, it is hard to argue that SD happens much more often when humans camp and are in a losing situation anyway.

If you really want to test the SD balance, it'll have to happen in situations where humans aren't already losing. Something like setting the SD time at 10-15 minutes might give us a better insight into the situation

As it is now, we'll probably have to wait until experienced players test the new setting to see if SD feels more balanced.

Sudden Death starts early (30 mins) and lasts 15 mins.  As a result, a good percentage of games end while in Sudden Death mode on this server (about 40%).

The wins this month that occurred prior to Sudden Death are much more evenly split:

Aliens 224
Humans 161

I know there are a lot of factors here and that armoury building isn't the only thing governing the SD win statistic, I was only pointing out that since the change there has been NO improvment in it.

I'll run with this until I can collect more data.  If there really is no SD balance improvment, I'll also try disallowing booster reconstruction and allowing defcomp reconstruction to see what effect those have, if any.

[Stof]

Mmmm, too bad I have a bad ping on your server :/

[Stof]

Ok, I've played just one game on your server, and the game lasted until SD too Ping was a killer though, those mara players need to be taught a lesson the next time I've got a better ping and a shotgun Played until SD as human and lost.

Anyway, on that game, strangely enouth, I think it was the high BP that made the difference in favor of aliens. High BP with a long SD time doesn't change a single thing for humans. Their base is still well defended but the aliens will still eat the turrets one after the other. On the other hand, the game is balanced for weak alien bases usualy and let me tell you that the huge amount of acid tubes around there wasn't what you would consider a weak base :/

In the end, the high BP greatly strengthens the alien base and makes the most common human tactic useless : you just cannot rush past the acid tubes and strike at the eggs and OM like that :/

On a normal BP server, the human base would have fallen much faster, but the nearly undefend alien base would have been killed even faster.

[Undeference]

I wanted to see what difference it would make from the alien point of view but had to leave before sudden death :-? I don't think we would have made it to SD anyway; the human team was much better (but I don't think they were expecting psycho dretches ). The server's full now so I'll have to try back later.

What is the reason for this? Because they had no armory (building) at 54:59, they are not allowed to build one at 59:59 ? Because they had an armory at 55:00, they can build an armory at 59:59 ?

For the same reason you don't like it, I do. It encourages attacking right before sudden death.

[Jaradcel]

Bah Stof, be a builder like me then

I walked in to watch a final moments game of S3 tyrants wiping a Karith map (wtf they didn't move base... oh gods) and observed - No one was building (maybe they were too busy panicking)

But yes, maybe putting the BP back to "normal" levels might help with the testing some. I'm used to a 100 or so BP game on most servers which is tight, cramped and tiny. So that could see some workouts.

[DarkRogue]

Well most of the games balance came for default build points but that's only part of the problem. As mentioned before, many humans simply have no clue how to attack.

Unless they can rush in and sneak behind the OM the average human player is clueless how to take down excessive alien d, both structural and player based.

Take for example SST....the average human player I've noticed on that server has two modes:

a) Sit back and shoot. Generally hurting everyone that's in the other category. More often than not I feel like turning around and killing these morons to prevent from being further shot in the ass while trying to dodge the 101 goons.

b) Rush ahead, with +attack pressed. Generally this works ok, humans ahve to play aggressive. But alot of ssts humans tend to completely ignore ambush tactics and fall for the same ambush 5+ times in a row.

You'd probably notice improvements to the balance scores if the experienced players didn't primarily go alien 3/4 of the games they play. I mean honestly while many experienced players do on occassion go human, it's more in the rate of one game against the half dozen they play as alien. Much like gloom, alines in trem seem to exhibit more frequently teamwork and the ability to work in a semi organized group.

Unless vets go humans...the analogy of chicken with its head cut off is an apt description. And there's no sd changes that will adjust for the fact there's simply a lack of skill and teamwork being used.

[PHREAK]

I'll agree with Xiane this time.
We simply won't be able to figure out the H vs A balance untill we have evenly skilled players on both sides.
This is starting to look better every day on small, semi-pro servers such as Killaz and sometimes on AKKA.
Let's hope this trend continues so we can really figure out the true balance issues, rather then concern ourselfes with the skill balance issues.

[DASPRiD]

Well I think the point is this (never saw someone rebuilding the OM in SD): Aliens rush humans down right after SD starts. But sometimes I see some humans rushing OM down when SD starts, and the the aliens loose. It's all, because most of the humans camp. If they dont camp all the time, they can even win SD.

[MtS]

Can you rebuild OM on #db and tremulous.info servers? I was under the assumption that you can't but I might be mistaken.

[rasz_pl]

exactly, this is the first time I hear about rebuilding OM after SD ... I personally have seen whooping ONE game with OM rebuild, and that was after SD was voted.

[temple]

If Aliens can't rebuilt the OM, how can a group of dretches take down an Turret cluster?

[Desp.]

Why should a group of dretches be able to take down a turret cluster? :roll:

Anyway, if SD kicks in on the DB/trem.info servers that usually means there's a stalemate with both teams s3. No rebuildable OM means it's a win-all/lose-all situation and basically the team with the smartest tactics (no, suicide runs aren't really that smart) in those 5-10mins wins. It basically adds the thrill back to a (by then) usually rather boring game, and that's a good thing. Ever had both teams rush the other base, destroying each others spawns? Simply priceless. You'll have some of the most intense 5mins ahead...

That said, I am curious as to how tjw's "fixes" work out. Sounds like a reasonable alternative.

[Undeference]

Can we have some updated stats with your changes, tjw? I played on your server a few more times but none of the games went to SD.

[Jaradcel]

From what I've been seeing playing on his server on and off, humans can actually get back in the game at SD with the ability to rebuild armories. It isn't the "waiting for the end" session that it usually devolves into


That said..... stats are nicer

[DASPRiD]

There is simply no "SD-Problem".

Sudden death means, the game ends soon. And it's the job of the aliens then, to destroy human's armory, or the humans job, to destroy overmind. Because then, the opposite team suddently dies.

[kevlarman]

There is simply no "SD-Problem".

Sudden death means, the game ends soon. And it's the job of the aliens then, to destroy human's armory, or the humans job, to destroy overmind. Because then, the opposite team suddently dies.

the sd problem is that the side doing the dying is almost always the humans. i have seen games that turned into egghunts, but aliens won in the end because of sd, which makes absolutely no sense.

[DASPRiD]

There is simply no "SD-Problem".

Sudden death means, the game ends soon. And it's the job of the aliens then, to destroy human's armory, or the humans job, to destroy overmind. Because then, the opposite team suddently dies.

the sd problem is that the side doing the dying is almost always the humans. i have seen games that turned into egghunts, but aliens won in the end because of sd, which makes absolutely no sense.

It makes sense. Because mostly humans start camping when SD begings. Ergo they don't kill overmind

[temple]

Why should a group of dretches be able to take down a turret cluster? :roll:

Anyway, if SD kicks in on the DB/trem.info servers that usually means there's a stalemate with both teams s3. No rebuildable OM means it's a win-all/lose-all situation and basically the team with the smartest tactics (no, suicide runs aren't really that smart) in those 5-10mins wins. It basically adds the thrill back to a (by then) usually rather boring game, and that's a good thing. Ever had both teams rush the other base, destroying each others spawns? Simply priceless. You'll have some of the most intense 5mins ahead...

That said, I am curious as to how tjw's "fixes" work out. Sounds like a reasonable alternative.

My points is that if OM isn't rebuildable, there is no way for Aliens to get through turrets, a base defense.  With no Armory, Humans have at least a chance to get in the base.

[DarkRogue]

without an armory humans have as much chance of surviving alien base as aliens do of surviving human base without an om.

See temple this is the point being made sd is the time in which either you win or you lose. if your main evolution/weapon building is destroyed go figure you should lose/have next to no chance of winning (save a miracle)

[Rippy]

I like the idea of a 0bp armoury that can be rebuilt.

Also, the reason why humans always lose in sd is because it only goes on to sd when the human team is already losing. Alien defenses are weak and easy to destroy, so humans don't need sd in order to take them out.

[temple]

without an armory humans have as much chance of surviving alien base as aliens do of surviving human base without an om.

See temple this is the point being made sd is the time in which either you win or you lose. if your main evolution/weapon building is destroyed go figure you should lose/have next to no chance of winning (save a miracle)

What you are missing the whole base defense issue.

Any human with a machine can get into an Alien base.  Take 2 and its easier.

A dretch can barely get past and maybe down a turret.  But a Telsa generator or Reactor could easily kill a dretch.

Looking at this from worst case scenario in SD with no OM, its Machine guns verses Dretches, basically S1 all over again EXCEPT Aliens get only dretches and humans only get machine guns.  The only reason why S1 is balaaced for Aliens is because of the OM and higher classes.

To balance SD, not allowing Aliens to earn Evolution points makes more sense then not being able to build the OM.  That way Aliens have a limited amount of evolutions, like humans have limited ammo post SD.  Not being able to rebuild the OM is a basically a reward and easy mode for Humans for camping or 45 minutes (or whatever time frame).

[Stof]

It is stupid to balance SD by removing the players offensive abilities! If you want the game to end quick, you must remove their defensives abilities instead. Else lies the infinite deadlock from hell.

[ethana2]

Humans can pick weapons back up with 10% ammo, and alien dretches can reinfest their corpses at 10% HP?  I think I like that idea.  Any thoughts?

What if you allowed for destruction of items?  A bsuit and luci are on the floor of my base and I'm a dragoon- quick!  Destroy them completely before he comes back!  Then they explode to signify their destruction?

Whatever you do, more people need to use skype.  That always makes games awesome.  You may have encountered a server where nobody really chats, but it drags on and on and on...  That's may be what's happening.

[ethana2]

Sudden death is like capital punishment for campers- people don't think it's fair to them when it happens, but the point is that it will happen, not that it does- think about it.  On SD servers, there needs to be a warning- Sudden Death in 15 minutes- go kick butt or die!  Sudden death in 10 minutes- own or be owned!  Sudden death in 5 minutes- you get the idea.  Sudden death voting, well, here's my take.

I get 6 skype users together and invade an empty atcs server with a decent ping.  We agree ahead of time that at 2 am, the game must wrap up.  At that point, the vote will be near unanimous.  Thing is, I don't know how to call a sudden death vote, after searching through all these faq's and forum postings, using google(vote "sudden death" site:tremulous.net).

So please tell me how to call that vote, and, well, use skype.  Naturally, it runs on all platforms.

[Raytray]

./callvote [enter]
read all available votes.

[Eeeew Spiders]

I am not really liking sudden death at all.
With two reasonably skilled teams, SD is often a tactic. Teams often wait until SD to start that rush.
Its mosttimes the team that camped 5 minutes before SD to accumulate enough evo/credits that wins (human camping in their base, aliens camping around human base).
I have seen it often, giving a good skilled and teamplay able human team, a simple 6 bsuits with lucy attack on alien base in SD finishes the game (giving a server with standard bp). You just have to make sure that you have the credits to buy these items just before SD. Only a human team that does not attack in the beginning of SD is a loosing human team.

So statistics are only useful when you count in what tactic was used
What the statistics are for not skilled teams or teams that us wrong  tactics I think should be ignored.

But since SD can become a tactic, it changes the game for those last 5/10/15 minutes before SD. Usually its a bore, cause both teams are just trying to save up on credits/evo for that SD rush. Most experienced players will stop taking risks before SD.


My suggestion for making SD more usefull, is not improving game play in SD so much (free armoury), but to make it such that it is unattractive to wait for SD.
Maybe a random or killcount based autokick of players every 20 seconds  

My 2c.

edit: wah, i think i am starting to like that autokick in SD idea