Dragoon Pounce

[|Nex|TrEmMa]

Well atm, dragoons can charge up their pounce forever if they so choose (there is a damage limit, however).
This is opposite the humans' lucifer cannon, which has a nice overcharge - explode feature.
Now I know nothing of imaginary aliens and how they work, but I imagine a very long pounce charge up/hold would wear that alien down a little in some way.
Possible changes could be:
-Having dragoons make a pounce charge up moan/sound
-A way to control limit of charge time, either an auto release after X seconds, an auto-cancel of an "overcharged" pounce, self-damage for overcharging or any combination of these
-Self damage could work a few ways: a set amt dmg after X seconds charging or a slow/gradual decline in health after X seconds charge (pounce would still do max damage in this case).
I'm pretty sure I've never seen this discussed before, so discuss (and flame).

[kevlarman]

there are already enough reasons not to keep pounce charged forever (you move slower, you can't jump, you can't chomp anything). you can't keep a luci charged forever because you could take out most s3 aliens with a fully charged shot (only a tyrant is safe), a goon pounce is about annoying as a dretch to an s3 human.

[kozak6]

The current goon pounce seems fine to me.

Charging the pounce slows goons down, and I haven't played as a goon for a little while here, but I think kevlarman is correct in not being able to chomp while charging.

Besides, there don't seem to be any gameplay issues caused by goons holding down pounce, so why change it?

[PHREAK]

The current pounce is completly fucked up, if u ask me. Since the new R1CH? fix, it's impossibe to play with....quite a pain in the arse.

As far as overcharging the goon, well see above posts about why it wouldn't matter. Slower speed, slower turns, can't chomp, etc.


P.S.
Where have you been Tremma? Nex misses you.

[Basilisco]

If you are going to compare the lcannon with anything, do it with the tyrant. Which, for what it concerns, can't charge the trample forever.

[^Black]

Tremulous is perfect as is excluding balance issues concerning the actual skill of the people on the teams. Why can't you just leave it alone?

[KorJax]

I belive goons should only be able to charge pounce for 10 seconds, any more the goon will make a screaming sound and instantly explode.

The meat chunks hitting you do 50 damage in a Bsuit, and instantly kill unarmroed.  Kinda like a time bomb ^_^

[Henners]

Of all the articifial reasons for wanting to change something.

"The completely unrelated weapon has an overcharge punishment - lets change the dragoon pounce!"

If you continue down this line of arguement I'll be forced into an objection

[[db@]Megabite]

The current pounce is completly fucked up, if u ask me. Since the new R1CH? fix, it's impossibe to play with....quite a pain in the arse.

Pounce just works the way it was meant to work again. That fix is just that... a fix for an exploit. If it is impossible for you to play without exploiting bugs you should just fire up Quake3 SP and type "/god" in console.

Danny

[Juno]

Tremulous is perfect as is excluding balance issues concerning the actual skill of the people on the teams. Why can't you just leave it alone?

what he said

[Stof]

Tremulous is perfect as is excluding balance issues concerning the actual skill of the people on the teams. Why can't you just leave it alone?

what he said

Loads of crap. Trem is not perfect, is not perfectly balanced and anyway, balance is NOT a valid argument against changing things in the game : you CAN change things while keeping the game balanced.

[Vector_Matt]

Leave the goon pounce the way it is, there is no logical reason it should be otherwise.

[PHREAK]

Megabite"]

Pounce just works the way it was meant to work again. That fix is just that... a fix for an exploit. If it is impossible for you to play without exploiting bugs you should just fire up Quake3 SP and type "/god" in console.

Danny

Hm, great suggestion.
Anyway, I have never used the rapid goon pounce in game so I really could give 2 shitts about it. I'm talking about the new "feel" of the goon. It really has gone from nice to a completly new animal. I also know for a fact that I'm not the only one with this opinion.

Mega, don't insult my intelegence by suggesting god mode, etc. I'm not your 14 year old CS/NS moron. m'kay

[Juno]

well tbh ive noticed the goon being a bit werid




feels like my movement is restricted and i have no idea what the hell is going on, apart from it being nerfed a bit. feels worse imo , so i agree with phreak


rapid pouncing was only useful for fleeing really, and getting from A- B fast





the game was fine imo before hand, but this new goon does rape my skill a bit



maybe it just takes getting used to

[PHREAK]

Juno, you can still do getaway pounces.
Find a long corrdor and ponce far, before you lad press jump (space bar).....keep repeating. You'll see what I mean.

BTW, what you described is exactly what I meant. It just feels restricted and weird and I can't really put my finger on what it really is.

Right now I have trouble killing ONE decent s2 hummie, where before it wasn't an issue (I not a pro but i'm better with the goon the your avarage bear). If there is a group, I don't live long enough to count them.

Goon is intended to be stronger and more dangerous then the classes bellow him, yet currently thats not the case.

[Odin]

Why not just make the dragoon's pounce fatigue-based, like the human jumps and sprint?

[Stof]

Juno, you can still do getaway pounces.
Find a long corrdor and ponce far, before you lad press jump (space bar).....keep repeating. You'll see what I mean.

BTW, what you described is exactly what I meant. It just feels restricted and weird and I can't really put my finger on what it really is.

Right now I have trouble killing ONE decent s2 hummie, where before it wasn't an issue (I not a pro but i'm better with the goon the your avarage bear). If there is a group, I don't live long enough to count them.

Goon is intended to be stronger and more dangerous then the classes bellow him, yet currently thats not the case.

Why does it matter? Pounce isn't that useful to kill humans is it? Myself I never use it as a damage dealer tool and I haven't too much difficulties killing stage 2 humans. Well, not much more than usual :/

[Paradox]

Ahh another "LETS NERF AN ALIEN BECAUSE IM NO GOOD WITH THEM AND ALL THE OTHER BOYS AND GIRLS ARE! WAAH" thread.

[Juno]

Why does it matter? Pounce isn't that useful to kill humans is it? Myself I never use it as a damage dealer tool and I haven't too much difficulties killing stage 2 humans. Well, not much more than usual :/

i do tho


id much rather be able to pounce as a bsuit and do a bit of damage as a goon first

noob story here

yesterday on ATCS i managed to bind the chomp key, so all my goon could do was pounce ( without nerfed pounce)

got a luci bsuit down to 10hp, just by pouncing into him

i dont fancy the only way to kill humans being chomping., i like to take a bit of damage, line up where i think theyll go and pounce AND chomp, so that i do more damage

[Norfenstein]

Right now I have trouble killing ONE decent s2 hummie, where before it wasn't an issue (I not a pro but i'm better with the goon the your avarage bear). If there is a group, I don't live long enough to count them.

Goon is intended to be stronger and more dangerous then the classes bellow him, yet currently thats not the case.

Why does it matter? Pounce isn't that useful to kill humans is it? Myself I never use it as a damage dealer tool and I haven't too much difficulties killing stage 2 humans. Well, not much more than usual :/

The bite only does more damage than the pounce with a headshot, and was never meant to be useful mid-pounce (that would make the pounce useless as an attack). Pouncing is almost a long range weapon and can be used to own any human that doesn't have support. Don't try using the pounce to close in for a bite; there's a delay on it after landing. It really is the goon's main attack.

i dont fancy the only way to kill humans being chomping., i like to take a bit of damage, line up where i think theyll go and pounce AND chomp, so that i do more damage

You can't bite and chomp. Before the change biting mid-pounce canceled the pounce damage and after the change you just can't bite while pouncing (a client-side change is required so that the bite sound doesn't play, but even though you hear it you're not biting and no one else hears it). That was another reason for the change, no one actually understood what was going on and now it's simpler: pounce when you're far away and bite when you're not because they can't be used together.

[Lava Croft]

Amen.

[|Nex|TrEmMa]

Pouncing short range is like zapping (in most cases), it's just not as effective.

But the original intent was to propose one of those changes that's realistic and helps slightly tweak game balance.  Dragoons dominate most stage 1 human teams.  Any changes would need to ensure that the aliens s2 disadvantage were not made any bigger.

And I may be going out on a limb, but I far from suck with aliens Paradox .

And tyrants cant stand around a corner with trample charged .  And since when does anyone use trample as their only means of attack?

Making it so you can't infinitely charge pounce shouldn't nerf your pouncing of humans anyway.  You'll still deal the same damage.  You'll still be able to pounce people to death.  It's just more realistic and a slight change that could help balance.

Oh, and if you have pounce charged, slowed walking doesn't matter... at all... when you can release pounce and go a lot further faster.

If I were savvy with modding, I'd write up a mod for this to let it be tested out.  But just ask yourself how much of your playing as a goon relies on sitting still with pounce charged and realise it wouldn't be the end of the world :/.

I like playing devil's advocate though .  (I've also always wanted to here more goon related sounds )

[PHREAK]

On a side note:

Why does the swipe cancel the pounce and why does the ponce kill the swipe (new tjw build)?

How's this "natural" for the goon?

How does one go about jumping over a bsuit, head chomp him then finish him from the back, when one has to wait a set number of seconds for the swipe to work again?

That's like preventing hummies from shooting when the duck or preventing jettards from firing when they fly!
I see no logic.

If a lion can jump on you and bite your neck at the same time, so should a goon

[temple]

Making it so you can't infinitely charge pounce shouldn't nerf your pouncing of humans anyway.  You'll still deal the same damage.  You'll still be able to pounce people to death.  It's just more realistic and a slight change that could help balance.

Realism don't do anything for game balance.  What is the real reason for wanting to nerf pouncing?

The only advantage to nerfing the charging of pounce would be to make goons have to charge the pounce on the fly.  Most (good) people already do that.  

This change is more of annoyance than balance.

[Norfenstein]

Why does the swipe cancel the pounce and why does the ponce kill the swipe (new tjw build)?

How's this "natural" for the goon?

The former was unintended and that latter was implemented because 1) a flying 160 damage attack is unbalanced and 2) it makes the pounce useless as a weapon (because allowing both together would be even more unbalanced and allowing either one alone is a false choice; you would never have a good reason to go for 100 damage instead of 160)

How does one go about jumping over a bsuit, head chomp him then finish him from the back, when one has to wait a set number of seconds for the swipe to work again?

One doesn't. Instead, you pounce over a bsuit, aim at his head like you would for a bite and damage him with the pounce (it's easier because you don't have to time it), then wait the 0.4 seconds for the bite to become usable again. Or even better, don't chomp at all and do repeated fly-by pounces (you don't actually have to run into someone to damage them, just aim, you can fly right past their hitbox).

That's like preventing hummies from shooting when the duck or preventing jettards from firing when they fly!
I see no logic.

It's not like either of those because ducking and flying are not attacks.

If a lion can jump on you and bite your neck at the same time, so should a goon

If a lion could harm someone by jumping on them without biting them then maybe you'd have a point.


Apologies to Tremma for being offtopic. I don't see how removing charge holding would really change much of anything. I suppose it's mostly a convenience for when you don't quite land in-position for a second pounce after a first. If you're thinking about goons camping behind doors or corners (like tyrants used to do with the trample) well... at stage 1 they can just head chomp instead for a guaranteed kill. Goons really are balanced weirdly because they have to cover stage 2 without being unfair at stage 1; I think once the issues with stage 2 aliens are sorted out we can go back and do something meaningful with the goon.

[Undeference]

If a lion could harm someone by jumping on them without biting them then maybe you'd have a point.

One word: crunch
Seriously, if a lion pounced on you without biting or clawing, do you think you'd even be half-alive to thank them?

[Rippy]

Some fairly harmless changes to the pounce:

1. Make it so that you can only charge a pounce while on the ground. Right now you can pounce, charge the next pounce while in the air, release the pounce as soon as you land, and repeat. The result is a dragoon (or even worse, adv dragoon) that bounces around at mach 3 (new "sonic boom" attack mb?). I believe SATGNU has that fixed, but it should be standard, because it makes a good goon player several times faster than he should be.

2. Pouncing dragoons should knock back any humans they hit. A half ton alien traveling at high speed should be able to knock a human quite a long way backward. The knockback distance would depend on how fast the goon was traveling when it hit the hummie, and the damage would also depend on the speed of the goon (not sure if it already does?). And finally, bsuits would be knocked back very little.

[temple]

Some fairly harmless changes to the pounce:

1. Make it so that you can only charge a pounce while on the ground. Right now you can pounce, charge the next pounce while in the air, release the pounce as soon as you land, and repeat. The result is a dragoon (or even worse, adv dragoon) that bounces around at mach 3 (new "sonic boom" attack mb?). I believe SATGNU has that fixed, but it should be standard, because it makes a good goon player several times faster than he should be.

2. Pouncing dragoons should knock back any humans they hit. A half ton alien traveling at high speed should be able to knock a human quite a long way backward. The knockback distance would depend on how fast the goon was traveling when it hit the hummie, and the damage would also depend on the speed of the goon (not sure if it already does?). And finally, bsuits would be knocked back very little.

1. I disagree with that totally.  You have never played a goon versus good humans.  A goons only defense is its agility.  When humans are packing shotguns, pulse rifles, or a lucy; they can just circle strafe + auto fire you death.  Goons are big targets, humans don't have to really aim at close range.  Being able to pounce repeatedly is the only thing that keeps a goon from being swiss cheese.  When you have 2 or more (good) humans, a goon doesn't stand a chance unless he can kill them in seconds or pounce around.

2. A knockback would be a buff to humans because humans are ranged attackers.  You basically would be knocking them out your range and back into their kill zone.  The only way a knockback would work is if it was a knock DOWN.  LOL, I would LOOOOOVE to see that.  Otherwise a knockback sucks for goons.

Just leave goons alone.  I would like to see more counters for circle strafing (lag strafing) but I just hope my ping is as high as their and pounce around until I can finish them.

[kozak6]

Some fairly harmless changes to the pounce:

1. Make it so that you can only charge a pounce while on the ground. Right now you can pounce, charge the next pounce while in the air, release the pounce as soon as you land, and repeat. The result is a dragoon (or even worse, adv dragoon) that bounces around at mach 3 (new "sonic boom" attack mb?). I believe SATGNU has that fixed, but it should be standard, because it makes a good goon player several times faster than he should be.

2. Pouncing dragoons should knock back any humans they hit. A half ton alien traveling at high speed should be able to knock a human quite a long way backward. The knockback distance would depend on how fast the goon was traveling when it hit the hummie, and the damage would also depend on the speed of the goon (not sure if it already does?). And finally, bsuits would be knocked back very little.

Actually, even if you can't charge a pounce in midair (and I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to), you can still jump and jump and jump as soon as you land and this allows you to keep all of your speed.

Suggestion 2 is interesting.

[next_ghost]

Actually, even if you can't charge a pounce in midair (and I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to), you can still jump and jump and jump as soon as you land and this allows you to keep all of your speed.

Suggestion 2 is interesting.

Bunnyhopping won't solve anything because you can't change directions fast enough to avoid being hit and you can't use it to get into high safety (ie. on niveus to the big window above door leading to long/4 door room crossroad).

And as temple said earlier, knockback is a big NO for goon.