Is each side properly balanced?

[WolfWings ShadowFlight]

...and I haven't yet said a single dretch can tear down a stack of human turrets. Not once. I outlined the method you could use to bypass walls of human turrets with a 'sacrafice play' easilly, because until a DefComp is set up all turrets in LoS to a target will focus on the first target any single turret spots. Sure, you're multiplying the damage output, but until you get the chance to set up multiple turrets your base is very vulnerable to one dretch letting the entire alien team in.

Seperately, just to prove a dretch can take down the default coverage for a base entrance on an existing map just unzip that .pk3 into your Tremulous directory and type '/demo tenth' to see. The tenth references various demos I've been recording to demonstrate various ideas and concepts such as visual explanation for why you don't place turrets off ledges, etc. Just under 20 seconds from spawn to side-alley turret destroyed as a Dretch. Other dretches going that way wouldn't have even been shot as they passed since it was targetting me.

And for the two tyrants I was dancing with until I was down to 30 lasgun rounds, one of them was the high scorer on the server, the other was 3rd place. Neither was bad as chopping down humans, I just had a helmet, and kept ducking and pausing (yes, pausing, it's amusing to see a Tyrant zoom past where you would have been if you hadn't stopped) so I wasn't just an easy-to-track circling human target.

The reason I'm not moving the discussion to the territory both of you want, a well-built human base, is if the point was to fight aliens versus a well-built human base the maps should start with well-built human bases. The initial fight, where the telling handful of alien frags can be obtained that grant access to higher alien classes very early, happens within the first minute of a map. Not in the last minute. I'm debating the balance based on early-map situations before humans can 'tnak up' and a basic flaw in the damage-math (headshots being too powerful) allowing for metagaming (the idea of playing purely to win even if the playstyle looks strange, isn't what was intended, or uses knowledge you shouldn't yet have. For example knowing that trolls are vulnerable to acid and fire only, when your PC has never seen one before in a D20 game) to provide a dramatic increase in ability over the designed gameplay.

[janev]

ok... you uploaded a demo of you killing a single turret :-? do you think a am a newbie :eek: i know you can take out single turrets ez with dretch and that can result in a base toppling rush.

and we are still talking about complete bases... yes 5 dretches can get past a wall of turrets but to what end? if the defending humans hit them before they get killed by the turrets that is points towards their stage 2.

you won't takedown complete bases with a basilisk dropping on reactor or a marauder... well unless the human team is reeeeally stupid .

If you want to discuss rushing then that is a completely seperate issue.

[Neo]

A good mara player can do a lot of damage to a human base on certain levels, mainly tremor and uncreation. On these you can win with a single mara under 5 minutes with a little luck.

The best bet for turrets is to have a single tank unit like a goon, as a dretch will die in no time reducing the effects of the suicide attack.

[WolfWings ShadowFlight]

and we are still talking about complete bases...

...

If you want to discuss rushing then that is a completely seperate issue.

I'm not now, will not in the foreseeable future, and was not discussing well-built base situations, because I feel that the core problem happens earlier, in effect during the 'rush' phase. I said that before, and you're welcome to continue discussing later-game balance, but I feel that answering the question of 'is each side properly balanced?' (which is the subject line for this thread) has to be answered as follows:

Two well-placed kills by a single dretch can let Aliens get Marauder early, a third kill gives them Dragoon very early, because of a combination of problematic coding (locational damage determination taking into account things I don't feel it should) combined with the overwhelming power of headshots versus legshots makes the skilled players in 'weak' classes act as if they are under permenant quad-damage. This quad-damage results in them being much more able to grab that stack of early kills in the first minute of a game, letting them get to Dragoon which (due again to the slightly too high headshot multiplier and problematic locational damage again) can mow down humans with trivial ease. Single good players can and often do carry aliens all the way from S1 to S3, many times with more kills than the entire rest of the server combined by a factor of two or three times as many, due to this situation.

So in short, no, each side is not properly balanced against the other, though the basic concepts for each side are well-balanced. The implementation is lacking, and some pre-defined numbers are obviously not 'tuned' but simply (and rather blindly) set without proper thought to their consequences.

[temple]

and we are still talking about complete bases...

...

If you want to discuss rushing then that is a completely seperate issue.

I'm not now, will not in the foreseeable future, and was not discussing well-built base situations, because I feel that the core problem happens earlier, in effect during the 'rush' phase. I said that before, and you're welcome to continue discussing later-game balance, but I feel that answering the question of 'is each side properly balanced?' (which is the subject line for this thread) has to be answered as follows:

Two well-placed kills by a single dretch can let Aliens get Marauder early, a third kill gives them Dragoon very early, because of a combination of problematic coding (locational damage determination taking into account things I don't feel it should) combined with the overwhelming power of headshots versus legshots makes the skilled players in 'weak' classes act as if they are under permenant quad-damage. This quad-damage results in them being much more able to grab that stack of early kills in the first minute of a game, letting them get to Dragoon which (due again to the slightly too high headshot multiplier and problematic locational damage again) can mow down humans with trivial ease. Single good players can and often do carry aliens all the way from S1 to S3, many times with more kills than the entire rest of the server combined by a factor of two or three times as many, due to this situation.

So in short, no, each side is not properly balanced against the other, though the basic concepts for each side are well-balanced. The implementation is lacking, and some pre-defined numbers are obviously not 'tuned' but simply (and rather blindly) set without proper thought to their consequences.

You are stuck on the whole headshot damage thing.

You won't mention any of the pros of humans.

[Undeference]

you won't takedown complete bases with a basilisk dropping on reactor or a marauder... well unless the human team is reeeeally stupid .

Some good human players still think the pipe base is best on Arachnid 2. More often than not, a basilisk can get in there and take out the reactor without getting hurt much.

[Henners]

Amazing, I've been away for nearly a month and its still the same old shit being posted here....

[kozak6]

Except without your objections.

I missed you, henners.  :cry:

[next_ghost]

I'm not now, will not in the foreseeable future, and was not discussing well-built base situations, because I feel that the core problem happens earlier, in effect during the 'rush' phase.

There's no rush phase in most games. I rarely see aliens dretch the weakest side of initial human base and get inside. They ussually just camp outside the strong side (if there's one) and wait for easy kills while letting humans salvage the crap and build a real base.

[Undeference]

Nope, it's usually the decent/good players ignoring the back turrets and raping the human base while the humans are busy wildly spamming at dretches by their main entrance.

[WolfWings ShadowFlight]

You are stuck on the whole headshot damage thing.

You won't mention any of the pros of humans.

Wonderful way to overquote.

And my issue is that I believe aliens have an advantage in the initial-rush due to what I believe is a bug (the way locational damage is calculated) combined with the astranomical advantage a headshot versus a legshot has for a Dretch.

It's not the headshot damage specifically. I agree headshots should hurt. But right now they do 96 damage versus 24 damage just for looking up slightly as you rush at a human. Not for jumping at their head, not for dropping on them from above, from the ground, looking up, you get a 'free' quad damage as a Dretch or Basilisk.

That's what I'm complaining about, a set of highly arbitrary but simple mechanics combined gives lowest-level aliens quad damage in effect. You never seem able to counter that basic complaint, except by stating 'turrets will stop dretches!' when I've said repeatedly that I don't believe the game is unbalanced once humans have a well-built base. The initial rush is where aliens can get the early kills though, and you only need one good alien player to do so because then they'll have Dragoon (or Marauder which leads into 'Goon) which (due to the same bugs that grant Dretches ground-headshots) can mow down humans with trivial ease and dump the game into S3A-S1H land in under 8 minutes.

The game as designed on paper is balanced. As implemented, with the specific values chosen for some arbitrary multipliers, it has a flaw in the early-gameflow state that makes metagaming far too effective if you can accomplish it. That's my statement. Turrets don't matter when there's only 1-3 in place in the entire map yet and many times there's not even a medipad in place yet for humans either.

[temple]

Wonderful way to overquote.

And my issue is that I believe aliens have an advantage in the initial-rush due to what I believe is a bug (the way locational damage is calculated) combined with the astranomical advantage a headshot versus a legshot has for a Dretch.

It's not the headshot damage specifically. I agree headshots should hurt. But right now they do 96 damage versus 24 damage just for looking up slightly as you rush at a human. Not for jumping at their head, not for dropping on them from above, from the ground, looking up, you get a 'free' quad damage as a Dretch or Basilisk.

That's what I'm complaining about, a set of highly arbitrary but simple mechanics combined gives lowest-level aliens quad damage in effect. You never seem able to counter that basic complaint, except by stating 'turrets will stop dretches!' when I've said repeatedly that I don't believe the game is unbalanced once humans have a well-built base. The initial rush is where aliens can get the early kills though, and you only need one good alien player to do so because then they'll have Dragoon (or Marauder which leads into 'Goon) which (due to the same bugs that grant Dretches ground-headshots) can mow down humans with trivial ease and dump the game into S3A-S1H land in under 8 minutes.

The game as designed on paper is balanced. As implemented, with the specific values chosen for some arbitrary multipliers, it has a flaw in the early-gameflow state that makes metagaming far too effective if you can accomplish it. That's my statement. Turrets don't matter when there's only 1-3 in place in the entire map yet and many times there's not even a medipad in place yet for humans either.

How many times does the game end in the first 1-5 minutes?

[WolfWings ShadowFlight]

How many times does the game end in the first 1-5 minutes?

Seriously, if you're making a one-line reply, don't be rude to everyone else and quote my entire post. :-)

And to answer your question, I've seen games end in the first 5-8 minutes frequently if one of the metagaming players is on the aliens team.

[DIGI_Byte]

How many times does the game end in the first 1-5 minutes?

Seriously, if you're making a one-line reply, don't be rude to everyone else and quote my entire post. :-)

And to answer your question, I've seen games end in the first 5-8 minutes frequently if one of the metagaming players is on the aliens team.

most games don't last long as its not suppossed to.

though being a dtrech i can take out atleast two Turrets near each other, the Turrets have difficulty aiming up so spinning in a small circle on top can destroy the Turret quickly then quickly jump to the next one though is this a flaw in the Turret design or is it suppose to be like that? is it a pro or a con?

[Undeference]

Don't apply logic to Tremulous. It is above your silly logic. For some reason, a dretch does a lot more damage to your head. Yet it doesn't instantly kill you, implying it can't pierce all the way through your skull. If that's the case, it should be more effective at disabling you by going at your chest or back, or even your heals (remember the Achilles tendon... it's a very good way to prevent someone from walking).

[DIGI_Byte]

Don't apply logic to Tremulous. It is above your silly logic. For some reason, a dretch does a lot more damage to your head. Yet it doesn't instantly kill you, implying it can't pierce all the way through your skull. If that's the case, it should be more effective at disabling you by going at your chest or back, or even your heals (remember the Achilles tendon... it's a very good way to prevent someone from walking).

This game is NOT realistic.

you spin ontop as the Turret chases you around since it can't aim straight up.