TJW new version of Tremulous

[benmachine]

Numbah 1: I was asking whether I could have a close server to test it further.

Thanks to everyone's favourite feature unlagged you can generally play on trem.tjw.org even with a european ping.
Generally.
Certainly, without unlagged I would have a hard time playing on any tjw servers at all.

[Eeeew Spiders]

Numbah 1: I was asking whether I could have a close server to test it further.

Thanks to everyone's favourite feature unlagged you can generally play on trem.tjw.org even with a european ping.
Generally.
Certainly, without unlagged I would have a hard time playing on any tjw servers at all.

 Even if trem.tjw.org didn't have Unlagged you could play there with a european ping . The question was if a more local server could feature these changes, so we could test it with a lower ping. if nobody is willing to host it, no problem I was thinking maybe of [T]Base, since they have a large variety of settings running already ([T]TremX, [T]NexT) or Dasprid's

[temple]

unless you just outspin it, go behind another turret to break its sight, have a different alien run infront of you to break its sight, go past a human to break its sight, etc

That works for 1 turret, but you can't trick them all.

The best rets with the new system are spread out.  So you get past 1, but the rest will be locking on and killing you while you dodge.  They have to range to do that well in 1.20.

Numbah 2: I have actually tested it on many maps and they were even more poor in the open-spaces of karith station. I was able to avoid and take them down even with a tyrant. In long rows or dotted around, they were always turning and never shooting.

Stop please.  Those rets are perfect in open spaces because they can outrange what you are used to in dodging and hit like hell.  Put 4 rets spread out and its hard to get close without tripping off others.

[Nux]

Thanks to everyone's favourite feature unlagged you can generally play on trem.tjw.org even with a european ping.

I want to test them with low-pings. It wouldn't be fair to make the game balanced only when you have high pings (if indeed they are so balanced even then).

Also, something I forgot to ask a while ago: Does unlagged perform hit-tests on turret shots?

[benmachine]

Thanks to everyone's favourite feature unlagged you can generally play on trem.tjw.org even with a european ping.

I want to test them with low-pings. It wouldn't be fair to make the game balanced only when you have high pings (if indeed they are so balanced even then).

Also, something I forgot to ask a while ago: Does unlagged perform hit-tests on turret shots?

Unlagged doesn't affect turrets because they don't have any lag.
By play I mean play properly - i.e. with unlagged I do not notice the effects of my 100 or so ping at all.

tjw has made changes to the code for his game.qvm and has not yet distributed this code (the patch in the pk3 is now slightly out of date) - this means no other server can have quite the same setup.

The new turrets are undeniably vicious - yes you can dodge them for some time, but let them open fire on you and you are nearly always dead. The point is, you can't just soak up the damage, knock one out and leave anymore, you have to actually move intelligently to evade fire or you will die quickly. This rewards clever and skilful play over the pain sponge style favoured by current tyrants.

[Nux]

Lag affects low-pingers when everyone else are high-pingers. The low-pinger still sees the world as pseudo-laggy because the players he interacts with are lagging. Unless turrets are purely client-side, they'll suffer the same effect if I'm right.

kevlarman has expressed that anyone is free to host it if the wish. This is at least what he said when I talked to him on the tjw server.

On the contrary, I believe turrets are easily picked off on their own and block each other too much when they're right next to each other. When you have an alien that can damage the turrets THAT quickly, there's not much compromise to find. Tyrants have always had to keep moving if they want to be effective. This is still the case.

[kevlarman]

tjw has made changes to the code for his game.qvm and has not yet distributed this code (the patch in the pk3 is now slightly out of date) - this means no other server can have quite the same setup.

the changes were minor and any coder could replicate them easily, but as of thursday i think, tjw.org/tremulous-current is up to date.

[benmachine]

Lag affects low-pingers when everyone else are high-pingers. The low-pinger still sees the world as pseudo-laggy because the players he interacts with are lagging. Unless turrets are purely client-side, they'll suffer the same effect if I'm right.

Unlagged combats lag by rolling back player movements by the firing player's ping to see if the target was in the crosshairs when they fired. Turrets, being inside the server, have no ping, and therefore no rollback. Lag may affect them but unlagged ignores them
Just for proof, src/game/g_weapon.c:230:

Code: [Select]

 // don't use unlagged if this is not a client (e.g. turret)
  if( ent->client )
  {
    G_UnlaggedOn( muzzle, 8192 * 16 );
    trap_Trace( &tr, muzzle, NULL, NULL, end, ent->s.number, MASK_SHOT );
    G_UnlaggedOff( );
  }
  else
    trap_Trace( &tr, muzzle, NULL, NULL, end, ent->s.number, MASK_SHOT );

On the contrary, I believe turrets are easily picked off on their own and block each other too much when they're right next to each other. When you have an alien that can damage the turrets THAT quickly, there's not much compromise to find. Tyrants have always had to keep moving if they want to be effective. This is still the case.

So, they are not put on their own nor right next to each other. They are placed moderately spaced so each is covered by two others (give or take) yet little of each turret's view is taken up by each other.

[Nux]

Turrets, being inside the server, have no ping, and therefore no rollback.

What are turrets doing inside the server?!?

Seriously, I'm asking whether the turrets will be attacking the position I was in, on my screen, but not at the time I got shot? (this would mean the turrets can shoot far away from my viewed postion and hit, with a high ping), or do the turrets hit me based on where I see their aim? Whether the turrets have a low-ping or not, that doesn't affect the possible inconsistency with what I see as the laggy player. My major question is more about how lag affects the turrets aim rather than unlagged. My mention of unlagged was in case it played some part in the calculation.

So, they are not put on their own nor right next to each other. They are placed moderately spaced so each is covered by two others (give or take) yet little of each turret's view is taken up by each other.

When you have an alien that can damage the turrets THAT quickly, there's not much compromise to find.

What you have given is a compromise. This I was stressing is a very hard compromise to find against the intended victims.

It seems like the new turrets are better at long range and worse at close range. This would mean that you'd need them to be out in the open to be effective (otherwise they're blocked by some wall until the alien is already too close to be effective). Yet "out in the open" is where the aliens can more easily pick them off. Especially when more than one alien is concerned, I think they might be alot harder to position and weaker to an attack.

All of this, though, is mere speculation till I have a proper game with it.

[Eeeew Spiders]

Turrets, being inside the server, have no ping, and therefore no rollback.

What are turrets doing inside the server?!?

Protect the server from intruders!

Seriously, I'm asking whether the turrets will be attacking the position I was in, on my screen, but not at the time I got shot? (this would mean the turrets can shoot far away from my viewed postion and hit, with a high ping), or do the turrets hit me based on where I see their aim?

All shots are calculated in relation to what the server sees. This also counts for turrets.
With Unlagged the shots are additionally also calculated with what the *server* saw X/2ms ago when the shooter has Xms ping and is using a hitscan weapon. It's never what the client sees, its always what the server sees or what the server thinks the client sees.

Whether the turrets have a low-ping or not, that doesn't affect the possible inconsistency with what I see as the laggy player.

Very true, but since turrets don't move and turrets are slow in turning, given a good enough ping it does not have a big impact.

My major question is more about how lag affects the turrets aim...

Turrets are unfailable!

It seems like the new turrets are better at long range and worse at close range.

This requires a rewriting of the threads "how to setup turrets".

This would mean that you'd need them to be out in the open to be effective (otherwise they're blocked by some wall until the alien is already too close to be effective).

Either that, or it may show to be more efficient to set them up to protect structures since they can cover what in trem1.1 are dead spots (reactor jumps).

[player1]

I personally think reactor jumps are a cool part of the game, and should be preserved, even though they are pretty much an exploit. At least they add some variety to the old whittle-'em-down-with-rant-runs strategy. What else are basis and maras really good at? These classes barely get used as it is. Please don't take away my reac jumps. I think they are the Alien equivalent of psaw OM rushing. What's next, an impervious Armoury?

[liq3]

I don't know if this has been said, since I didn't want to read through 270+ posts. I did read the first page though. Why's everyone complaining about the regen nerf? Booster and adv basi now have 3x regen, which means that an adv goon with 1hp heals in just under 12 seconds near one. If rants get 3x regen they heal to max in about 9.5 seconds. It normally takes a adv goon 36 seconds and 18 seconds near a rant. Rants normally take 28.5 seconds. Wow....Have an adv basi near their base and you can attack 3x as often. I fail to see how regen is underbalanced.

[jr2]

I want to test them with low-pings. It wouldn't be fair to make the game balanced only when you have high pings (if indeed they are so balanced even then).

Here's something for you to try: cFosSpeed.  You can try it free for 30 days.  Install it, add Tremulous as a "High" priority program to (right-click on tray icon) > Options > Settings > Programs - select category: Games.  If you don't buy the program I'll eat my hat.  XD  Eats your ping, try it to find out.  Bonus!  It's a European program, too!! 

I ended up buying the cFosSpeed (9.95 €) + lifetime updates (4.95 €) download package, for about $22 US (14.90 €).  This program rocks!!  (And, you can be uploading stuff @ max U/L speed, Downloading stuff @ max D/L speed, and still surf the net with only a second or two delay!! O.O Or be uploading at .90 of you max U/L, and play Trem with ~90 ping on most servers.)

Do try it and see if it works for you... let me know.

[Steely Ann]

liq3

Welcome to the Tremulous forum.  People complain a lot on here.  More often than not about either stupid stuff or things they know not a damn about.

[AKAnotu]

liq3

Welcome to the Tremulous forum.  People complain a lot on here.  More often than not about either stupid stuff or things they know not a damn about.

sadly, true
please leave your brain at the entrance

[Shadow-Majestic]

i havent tested tjw yet i think
but from what i can read

Aliens wont get owned... NO! not at all

it changes both way of playing to balance it out even more

humans strongest power was mostly to camp (unless you had skills to take on a goon)
and aliens strongest power was cornercamping (yes just waiting for a human to run around a corner is as noob as a human sitting ontop a turret waiting for a alien to come by)

seems like these 2 things will change (wich is why alien players nag that aliens suck more)
aliens dont, this just lures for different tactics... actually using the silent and surprise attacks of aliens (cornercampattack != surprise) and makes it so that aliens wont attack humans within range of there base as fast... giving humans less credits and less kills for s2/s3 therefor FORCING the humans out of base, and since aliens are more base reliant... there is more chance that there wont be a goon or tyrant hugging a corner just outside a base
this will force aliens to use TACTICS (unknown to most killwhore goons/rants) instead of just running at humans and kill as many as possible

i cant see whats wrong with this? it will open allot more ways of playing then with 1.1 and i hope that the DEVs will continue making changes to open up more possibilities (this will also give more possibilities for creating maps, since aliens need there surprise more )

and with the unlagged...
it removes the fact that you have to aim a bit befor a fleeing alien and requires aliens to get more skills in fleeing just then just CHARGING or POUNCING in the oposite direction of a human
unlagged will just improve the gameplay (also for aliens) and especially for people without fancy internet connection to archieve <75 pings

i can say im a pretty good player on both sides, but its still impossible to kill goons at s1 ,shotty beeing most powerfull weapon.. but you still have the instant kill hits unlike with the dretch/bassi/mara

although why advanced goons in the same stage as normal goons? i think the sniping is really more suited for s3 otherwise it'll more or less kill the use of a normal goon if there both available in the same stage

a skilled goon owns humans s1 and has a very good change on humans s2
a skilled tyrant couldnt be beaten unless you overpowered him with luci's/chainsuits

the game will change allot... now its mainly revolving around humans base all the time (in 90% of the matches)... it will make the rest of the map just as important to be a battleground

good luck on working with the game guys, keep it going

[jr2]

humans strongest power was mostly to camp (unless you had skills to take on a goon)
and aliens strongest power was cornercamping (yes just waiting for a human to run around a corner is as noob as a human sitting ontop a turret waiting for a alien to come by)

the game will change allot... now its mainly revolving around humans base all the time (in 90% of the matches)... it will make the rest of the map just as important to be a battleground

THANK YOU!!!! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!

Finally... Someone who thinks the squeaking of "CoMe OuT cAmPeRs" is as n00bish as I think it is.  They are both camping.  Aliens outside, humans inside.  If the aliens don't want to camp, then perhaps they'd like throwing themselves at the turrets without turning around and parking outside the base while their health recharges??  +3 !

[Shadow-Majestic]

humans strongest power was mostly to camp (unless you had skills to take on a goon)
and aliens strongest power was cornercamping (yes just waiting for a human to run around a corner is as noob as a human sitting ontop a turret waiting for a alien to come by)

the game will change allot... now its mainly revolving around humans base all the time (in 90% of the matches)... it will make the rest of the map just as important to be a battleground

THANK YOU!!!! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!

Finally... Someone who thinks the squeaking of "CoMe OuT cAmPeRs" is as n00bish as I think it is.  They are both camping.  Aliens outside, humans inside.  If the aliens don't want to camp, then perhaps they'd like throwing themselves at the turrets without turning around and parking outside the base while their health recharges??  +3 !

haha, its just a fact that humans only camp because aliens make them
its al ways the noobs crying that humans should come out at s1 while there 2+ goons sitting and waiting for humans to run like headless ducks around corners... those whiners annoy me more then campers/noobs ever will ^^