TJW new version of Tremulous

[Nosfore]

I just played on a server with TJW new version of Tremulous. They told me that no thread discussed this new version, so I'll start one and give my opinions.

I found most of what I consider to be the alien strenghts have been diminished in some way. Namingly:

Bite reach
I agree that bite reach is ridiculously long compared to the model, but then.. it's now harder to hit. Harder to hit means harder to kill.

Regen
Regen speed is now really slow outside base. Meaning aliens loose much of their mobility.

Tyrant rush
Tyrant rush has been slowed and its duration reduced. You can no longer escape as easily as before, thus making hit and run less effective.

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I think those modifications are going the wrong way. Mobility is the key to alien victory. Anything hadicaping mobility makes aliens less enjoyable.

Also, in this new version, the build system has been modified. Buildings have to be marked for deconning. It's a good system and benefit equally to both team.

I did not play humans yet and look forward to see what are the changes. By the way, is there a changelog of some sort?

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What's your opinions?

[Paradox]

svn has auto changelog.

[kevlarman]

svn has auto changelog.

and none of the balance changes are in svn

[Paradox]

Well, trem.tjw.org contains a list of most of his changes.

[holyknight]

I don't like any of them too. Especially long range for dretches :0
Ima gonna get owned.

[Plague Bringer]

OM should have a healing aura.

[Lakitu7]

I'm reasonably certain I've been told that nothing has been changed about dretch range. That is unless it's changed in the past few days since I was told that .

Yes, the changes are listed on the site, but that is massively massively out of date and many other things are different. You can confirm this easily by seeing that dretch is now back to 30 instead of 35 as it says. Personally, I really really wish he would keep the list updated so that we can know what rules we're playing with and what to test, but that is not the case.

Trample is better, not worse, but when you hold and release the button is changed.

SVN does not have any of such changes. That's correct.

[holyknight]

OM should have a healing aura.

doesn't it already have that?

[Lakitu7]

Regen is x1/3 when away from creep.
Regen is x1 when near creep.
Regen is x3 when near a booster.
Regen is x2 when near a Basy
Regen is x3 when near a +Basy.

It's not the overmind per se-- Really more the eggs. Does the OM generate "creep?" I don't know.

[David]

It's not the overmind per se-- Really more the eggs. Does the OM generate "creep?" I don't know.

The OM makes creep. At least the kind you can build on....

[Raytray]

Tyrant rush has been changed for the better I feel.  Before you couldn't very well chase down anything unless they were being blocked by a teammate.  A quick pounce get away, a  trample and turn around the corner where you can reach in time.

Also tyrant trample used to be charge while still trampling, I think that was fixed.

[Glunnator]

I haven't played the new version, But the changes don't sound to my liking...  

[Ceaser342]

Regen retarded out of base will be BS.  I think that handicapping the aliens is stupid.  Granted there are a few balance issues but no regen takes away there flexibility now that they have find a basi or run back to base if they take heavy damage.  This cripples the Mara since it relies on attack regen attack regen.  Ground headshot is what make dretchs deadly but I can make do with out it.  Regen however is critical.  Why not just make it where regen is off if you don't have a OM?

[Mad_Joe]

Wouldn't the lowered regen off creep promote forward building, or at least forward eggs? You wouldn't need to run all the way back to the base, as eggs generate creep too.

I actually agree with above posts, though. In my opinion, lowering alien regen isn't the way to balance out aliens. However, the devs probably have some reason that has yet to be explained for it. I'll keep an open mind about it for now.

[genie]

can we get a list of the servers that are running the new version? it would be helpful to people who want to play the new version and to those who don't, at least until all servers are running the new version.(who knows it may happen)

[Risujin]

1.) Please move this to the mods forum
2.) Domination version 4 now includes these changes
3.) The Aliens still win, though now with the help of Basis, Dretches, and poison moreso than Tyrants/A.Goons
4.) Its actually pretty fun

[tuple]

TJW's server has these changes, as does the }MG{DominationMod server.

What people arent' mentioning is the Basi.  It's reach is farther and the gas is much more effective, and it walks silently in addition to it's healing aura.

In trem 1.1, when s3 is reached, aliens all go tyrant/+goon and that is it, aliens dominate (for the most part).  Now, it is worthwhile to stay as a basi or other smaller alien.  I wouldn't say aliens have been nerfed, but the abilities of the aliens seems to have been spread out amongst the aliens.  Tyrants are more vulnerable, dretches and basi less so.  I used to dretch up 4-5 evos in s3 before I evolved, otherwise you just get killed against chainguns/lucys/etc.  I don't on TJW's though, I dretch 2 and go adv. basi where I can still help my team and hopefully (as I get better at the basi) get some kills.

I never learned basi that well.  Aside from "existential risk" I've never seen anyone all that effective with a basi.  Basi's are loud, low hit points, and the adv. gas is usefull only if humans are s1. Lets face it, existential risk was a freak occurrence in that respect. I only remember seeing norfenstein play the new basi, though I suspect he is quite good at it too(he's DEADLY with the new basi )

Also, I understand that the turrets are faster.  BUT, they take longer to spin up.  I'm not sure yet, but based on a couple games I played yesterday, it seems that this will affect base building strategies for the humans significantly.  Packing all your turrets together is less effective as they must all spin up, making it possible for a dretch to run over top of them all.  Spreading them out a little makes it more likely that a turret or 2 will already be aimed near the enemy and won't have to spin up as much.  I haven't tested that though.

Really, I suggest anyone who tries these changes to try it for a few matches and from both sides.  I have all but ceased playing humans on regular servers but not on tjw's server.  And on aliens, it is suddenly not all about getting the tyrant.

[Norfenstein]

We (mostly I) should have a justification for every change made so it's okay to ask... I just hope I can remember them all...

Bite reach
I agree that bite reach is ridiculously long compared to the model, but then.. it's now harder to hit. Harder to hit means harder to kill.

This hasn't been changed. I don't know what you're referring to.

Regen
Regen speed is now really slow outside base. Meaning aliens loose much of their mobility.

The point is to make aliens more reliant on their bases because humans are extremely reliant on theirs and this is the best way to even it out (and unfortunately making this more equal is important for balancing a whole lot of other things). But it doesn't hurt aliens to drop forward eggs around the map, and people are really starting to use basilisks more, so you'll get used to it.

Tyrant rush
Tyrant rush has been slowed and its duration reduced. You can no longer escape as easily as before, thus making hit and run less effective.

Mistaken here too. Hopefully the new hud (pester jex about that) will make the trample charging more clear, but it actually (if I remember correctly) takes slightly less time to charge up to full and all the rest of the time is a "buffer" you have before it releases automatically. And it does double damage now (was bugged before) and has major knockback with little or no (don't remember) delay between hits. Try trampling someone straight into a wall (but promise not to come back and complain about it being overpowered )...

Also, I understand that the turrets are faster. BUT, they take longer to spin up. I'm not sure yet, but based on a couple games I played yesterday, it seems that this will affect base building strategies for the humans significantly. Packing all your turrets together is less effective as they must all spin up, making it possible for a dretch to run over top of them all. Spreading them out a little makes it more likely that a turret or 2 will already be aimed near the enemy and won't have to spin up as much. I haven't tested that though.

Exactly. Turrets now perform much better when spread out a little. I've seen more than one person try this version for the first time, see a dretch dance over their tightly clumped pack of turrets, and cry.

For the record:

• Turret range has been increased from 300 to 400
• Turret angular speed has been increased from 8 to 12
• Turret damage has doubled (4 to 8 )
  
• Turrets must wait about a second (we're still tinkering with that number, I've asked tjw to try one second exactly most recently) after acquiring a target before firing, but they'll continually track a target within range so you have to be agile to trick them once they spin up

Please move this to the mods forum

Whoops, just moved it back to feedback. tjw's version is basically our testing ground for tremulous 1.2, so I think it's more appropriate to have it here. Plus I rarely check the mod forum...

[AKAnotu]

turrets are now overpowered

the spin up time only effects dretches, making it easier to get around them,because it still takes more time to kill a turr with another class tahtn the warm up.

The new alien creep regen is the cause of this problem

with crappy regen, and reduced tyrant hp, and double turret damage, aliens are slowed down to a halt attacking bases, as they cant regenerate faster than it takes to build new turrets, making human bases nearly invincible. also, crappy regen makes a base attack a suicide run, because by the time they kill a turret, they will be at low health, even more so because of the range, and will be easy targets, to even a naked rifleman that chases them, making humans get unfair creds for camping. in fact, the whole new turret spin up and regen encourages camping, for health and to kill dretches that try to make it around turrets and degrades the quality and fun of the game. tremulous is fine as it is, and even more fun with the quantity of new ideas, but the recent ones have been kinda crappy. also, as norsfore pointed out, the point of aliens is mobility, not camping. and aliens are base dependent, if they lose it, they pretty much for sure lose, plus om for evoing and booster for regen and poison.


please do not impliment theese ideas in 1.2, for the sake of the non boyscout players

[Odin]

I for one do not agree with these changes. The turret speed was enough of a change.

[Mad_Joe]

@AKAnotu

I don't agree with you... Sure, the new turret system may make it harder for tyrants to attack a human base, but that's kind of what it's supposed to do.

By making tyrants less effective at attacking bases, you promote other alien classes, making the ideal base attacking force a balanced army (like the humans) as opposed to all tyrants or advanced goons.

Basis have the healing aura, with will be crucial with the regen changes. Maras can dodge the turrets better (and was their something with their lightning and being able to better take down turrets? I can't remember.). Dretches can run past the turrets, and advanced goons can snipe.

I support these changes (at least in theory). Perhaps I am not qualified to speak, since I haven't played on a changed server yet. I'll be interested to see how the changes turn out once 1.2 is released.

[Lakitu7]

I'd like to point out to everyone that the list on http://trem.tjw.org/ has been updated. Thank you very much to whoever got around to doing that.

Though I have seen a few things in the .patch that aren't in that list.

Blaster damage +1
Chaingun spread increased
Tyrant claw width down

Norf, could you explain this one:
SHOTGUN_RANGE (8192 * 12)  <- down from 8192 * 16
Hitscan weapons have a max range(??) and the shotgun's was reduced?


I don't understand the zap changes. It still seems useless. Damage for claw is 40 and for mara+ fires every 400 ms. Thus 40 * (1/.4)=100dps. Zap does 33. With a max of 3 targets, that's a max of 99 dmg, which is only about equal. Vs a single target, it's (obviously) only 33dps. This all tells me that it's only worthwhile if you can keep 3 targets in range for a reasonable amount of time. Unless the log saying "for all targets" means that zap ignores armor? Is that the case?

On a semirelated note, has anyone else's turret spinup sound stopped playing in the latest version? I miss it and trying to figure out why it's broken but only for me is driving me nuts.


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As for my opinions, some bases are still just impossible to siege. Humans in the ele on Karith seemed even more impossible than it was in 1.1 proper. I don't see how that game was winnable at all for aliens, and we DID have a reliable basy+ outside. Hell, that was even before the tyrant hp nerf.

What's the idea for breaking bases now- you need dretches and maras to run in first to "distract" turrets while tyrants can take advantage of the fact that turrets aren't clustered anymore to run in and hit important things?

Dretch HP needed that boost after Unlagged. I'm real disappointed to see it back down to 25.

Aside from the turrets, which I'm skeptical about but may be proven wrong, I mostly like the changes. Making aliens have more teamwork is the way to go, though it will annoy upper tier players that tend to killwhore on pubs, since the lack of having a reliable basy teammate in a pool of newbs will hurt that game considerably. I'd like to see Mara and Dretch HP upped, since both suffered very very considerably when unlagged went into effect. Maras can now barely survive a hop through a few humans, much less be the "barely gets kills, but lives forever" beast they once were.

[techhead]

In my opinion, TJW broke more than he fixed with the regen, poison, tyrant, luci, and turrets.

Regen: Less alien mobility, and less team uniqueness. Also, if aliens are going to be more base dependent, then they probably need stronger bases, or at least defenses with more than 150 hp. D:

Poison: Can be incredibly lethal to any human without a medpack, 20hp to a bsuit, and the numbers go up from there. Also, aliens need to return to base even more. :cry:

Tyrant: Less claw speed, weaker charge, less hp, no regen aura. Makes tyrants relatively useless, especially with the new turrets. :evil:

Luci: half as fast ROF, can't kill much of anything with it, especially with the still-slow-as-mud projectile speed.

Turrets: cant pose much of a threat to skilled, agile aliens, but newbies and tyrants will be dropping like flies. :x

Result: Generally making the game even harder for newbies to pick up, and alienating many long-time players with drastic changes.

[Ryanw4390]

I see all this stuff about turrets, but has anything been done/planning to be done to telsa generators?

[Norfenstein]

Sorry for the delay in responding, I had to actually test the new changes myself >_>

SHOTGUN_RANGE (8192 * 12) <- down from 8192 * 16
Hitscan weapons have a max range(??) and the shotgun's was reduced?

Yes, if I'm not mistaken hitscan weapons do have a maximum range, with 8192 effectively being infinity (I think Q3's railgun has the same range). I'm sorry I have no idea what the * 12, * 16 is about though.

I don't understand the zap changes. It still seems useless. Damage for claw is 40 and for mara+ fires every 400 ms. Thus 40 * (1/.4)=100dps. Zap does 33. With a max of 3 targets, that's a max of 99 dmg, which is only about equal. Vs a single target, it's (obviously) only 33dps. This all tells me that it's only worthwhile if you can keep 3 targets in range for a reasonable amount of time. Unless the log saying "for all targets" means that zap ignores armor? Is that the case?

No, you're right about the damage (not about the armor; I don't think we'll ever do something like that), but I think it's useless because turrets are still too able to track bouncing marauders. I've made another minor change to help with this, letting (skilled) marauders bounce around full bases without taking too much damage, and it's here that the zap is much better than the slash, even when you're not always getting three targets and breaking the chain frequently. I tried it instead with 50 damage on my own: filled the lamer spot on Niveus with just turrets and took out about half of them in one life. So 33's probably an okay value Can still use the slash when it's safer though. Don't consider the zap finalized yet either.

What's the idea for breaking bases now- you need dretches and maras to run in first to "distract" turrets while tyrants can take advantage of the fact that turrets aren't clustered anymore to run in and hit important things?

Hopefully dretches will never be vital in attacking bases, and tyrants have never really been best suited for it either. Marauders are intended to be the main base breakers -- at least 1.1 style bases.

Dretch HP needed that boost after Unlagged. I'm real disappointed to see it back down to 25.

This might just come down to a matter of opinion, but people shouldn't be relying on dretches as much as they do in 1.1; hopefully the higher classes will be appealing enough for them to upgrade as readily as humans do. I'm already seeing this with the basilisk improvement. And personally, coming from Gloom, I like the weak dretches (makes the shotgun more fun!).

Result: Generally making the game even harder for newbies to pick up, and alienating many long-time players with drastic changes.

I don't really see anything that's been made harder for new players yet, but there are lot of user interface things that haven't been implemented, so maybe you're confused there. Regarding your second point: long-time players can be alienated if it means improving the game. I'm not going to let Trem stagnate as long as I have any influence here. Besides, the code's open; like you said here someone very well might make a "nostalgia" mod. This is a good thing. Open source means the best ideas win and no one has to suffer in order to please "long-time players". Good thing too, since my ideas might all turn out to be crap. I'm not going to address your other issues though since your attitude seems to be getting in the way of acquiring accurate information. I'm sorry we don't keep everyone completely up-to-date very well.

I see all this stuff about turrets, but has anything been done/planning to be done to telsa generators?

We intentionally focused on getting turrets right first (and I hope hope we're close to there now). One thing I don't want to do is make teslas any stronger, since I think the game should be more volatile at higher stages to make stalemates less likely and better defense (as opposed to better offense) at higher stages goes against that goal. Teslas do nicely complement the new turrets though, so we're going to try dropping their dcc requirement and maybe also trading off some of their power for a price drop.

[Plague Bringer]

Teslas are actually usefull now with the slow turrets! Infact, they are so useful (and since goon+ has moved to S2) they should be available at S2. Dretches are able to get into even the tightest of bases at S1 and S2 on maps like ATCS (I haven't seen the defcom do much to help turrets, does it give them any bonuses anymore?) and wreak havoc on early game builders, teslas need to be available sooner so that dretches wont completely overrun humans and goon+ rush them within 5 minutes of gameplay.

[AKAnotu]

Hopefully dretches will never be vital in attacking bases, and tyrants have never really been best suited for it either. Marauders are intended to be the main base breakers -- at least 1.1 style bases.

well what are we supposed to use tyrants for then, now that theyve been screwed over with better HUMAN bases, creep regen, and lower hp. you know as well as i do that at the end of most games, humans just sit around in their bases and camp, so what are tyrants supposed to do now? wait for the one or two people who come out? camp and  do nothing? watch the maras die from the defenders as the humans pull of a relocate? i'm telling you, some good ideas, but bad implimentation

edit:whoops, wrong name in quote. sry norsefore!

[tuple]

Humans sit around their bases and camp because the entire alien team has gone tyrant and will undoubtedly kill any human before they get half way to the alien base.  Except the really good human players, who will make it 3/4 to within feet of the alien base before they get killed.

Taken as a whole, these changes will mean that tyrants will not be the end all be all of aliens, meaning there will be fewer tyrants at the end of games.  Humans are much more likely to not camp then, particularly when there is the possibility that humans can actually kill 1 or 2 of those tyrants.

[AKAnotu]

Humans sit around their bases and camp because the entire alien team has gone tyrant and will undoubtedly kill any human before they get half way to the alien base.  Except the really good human players, who will make it 3/4 to within feet of the alien base before they get killed.

Taken as a whole, these changes will mean that tyrants will not be the end all be all of aliens, meaning there will be fewer tyrants at the end of games.  Humans are much more likely to not camp then, particularly when there is the possibility that humans can actually kill 1 or 2 of those tyrants.

which means that humans now win most games, instead of an even balance where humans actually attacked at s2 instead of camping to repair from sniping goons, and from what i've seen on tjw's, specing satgnu (i don't have a good enough ping to play there) and playing on domination mod. also, tjw's junk makes it super easy to relocate base, because it takes less turrets to defend and ward off aliens while building. actuall story: while playing a game with the tjw junk on, we (the aliens) killed the human base 4 times (FOUR, THATS 3 MORE THAN MOST GAMES) until we eventually ran out of evos, at which point   humans stormed our base and won. ... FOUR FRIGGIN' TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <---------

[n00b pl0x]

edit: nvm...i dont even want to comment because things change like 5 times a day and i have no idea whats going on